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News & ArtsSunday, December 7, 2008
Homo Confidential to Caitlin Flanagan and Benjamin Schwarz
Posted by Dan Savage on Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 10:24 AM
Just finished reading your opinion piece in the NYT this morning. Just wanted to say...
For many of us—Obama supporters, just as concerned about the economy as anyone else—marriage equality is one of the "big issues." Sorry.
And, sorry, but we're going to keep pressing for our full civil rights. That many straight African Americans object to same-sex marriage not just for religion reasons, but also because "many blacks feel a significant aversion to homosexuality itself" is, um, a very interesting observation, but I don't see how you get from that assertion to your strongly implied, although never explicitly stated, advice for gay and lesbian Americans: STFU, give this marriage equality thing a rest, so that we can "regain... lost ground," and focus on the "big issues," the important stuff, the stuff that matters—like our 401Ks.
The exact same advice could be given to liberal and progressive homophobes—whatever their ages, races, or religious beliefs—who voted for Obama and against the rights of same-sex couples: Give your "significant aversion to homosexuality" a rest and focus on the "big issues."
1
Thanks for the response, Dan. I felt the same irritation when I read that column.
What bugs me is that, although I agree with them that the "top my oppression" is an unwinnable game, they imply that the suffering and oppression of african americans somehow excuses them from recognizing the suffering and oppression gays and lesbians face.
Shouldn't it work two ways, that both groups must acknolwedge the suffering of the other, without trying to make it a competition?
What bugs me is that, although I agree with them that the "top my oppression" is an unwinnable game, they imply that the suffering and oppression of african americans somehow excuses them from recognizing the suffering and oppression gays and lesbians face.
Shouldn't it work two ways, that both groups must acknolwedge the suffering of the other, without trying to make it a competition?
2
Yeah I read that thing too. Seemed off in a lot of ways; there's more to pick at than what Dan mentions here.
3
@1: Another beef with the piece: these aren't two separate and distinct groups. There are gay African Americans. Gay does not mean white, and black does not mean straight.
7
Go Dan Go!!!
@1 unfortunately it doesn't work like this. Oppressed minorities are often oppressive (or at least resentful) of other minorities. Look at Israel. People who have Holocaust in their history could be me more tolerant to ... (arabs, gays, immigrants... general non jews...) But no, memory is too short for that.
@1 unfortunately it doesn't work like this. Oppressed minorities are often oppressive (or at least resentful) of other minorities. Look at Israel. People who have Holocaust in their history could be me more tolerant to ... (arabs, gays, immigrants... general non jews...) But no, memory is too short for that.
8
But I thought that Prop 8 the Musical taught us that gay marriage is part of the solution to the problem with the economy?
9
nice to know that caitlin flanagan continues to be able to find publications willing to air her tired shtick.
(confidential to dan: please retire the "confidential to" gimmick.)
(confidential to dan: please retire the "confidential to" gimmick.)
10
@7
Do you think that there might be a better comparison somewhere else? invoking the Jew/Arab thing could be a bit dangerous. Like, a lot of Jews in the Mideast felt quite a bit of hatred coming at them from the Arabs waaaaay before Israel. That area has a bit of a chicken or the egg problem. Who hated who first? Hundreds, even thousands of years of history of enmity going on.
"Look at Israel. The Arabs wanted to blow them into the sea the minute they became a country! So then Jews became the assholes."
Not so straightforward.
Not sayin that Israel has done everything right. They've done a lot of things wrong. But a better parallel example might be had somewhere else.
Shit, I hope Issur doesn't see this.
Do you think that there might be a better comparison somewhere else? invoking the Jew/Arab thing could be a bit dangerous. Like, a lot of Jews in the Mideast felt quite a bit of hatred coming at them from the Arabs waaaaay before Israel. That area has a bit of a chicken or the egg problem. Who hated who first? Hundreds, even thousands of years of history of enmity going on.
"Look at Israel. The Arabs wanted to blow them into the sea the minute they became a country! So then Jews became the assholes."
Not so straightforward.
Not sayin that Israel has done everything right. They've done a lot of things wrong. But a better parallel example might be had somewhere else.
Shit, I hope Issur doesn't see this.
11
Right on. Abortion/contraception rights and gay rights are my personal "big issues". 401ks can go to hell for all I care cause I don't and probably never will have one, whereas I *do* have a uterus and, well, I'm not gay but civil rights are just a no-brainer to me. How can we spread basic civil rights to other parts of the world if we don't even have them here?
12
I have a "significant aversion" to douchebag evangelicals too, but I have never advocated denying them the right to marry.
13
@10 Ok you made a point about arabs, but homos didn't want to blow them into the sea long before .... but most Israelis are hugely resentful of homosexuality. And I find it really disturbing because gays got sent to concentration camps as well, so you'd think that jews would side with gays and not hate the gays...
14
Civil rights and the Constitution are really big issues for me.
They are also issues that can be addressed pretty quickly and easily, unlike the economy.
Repeal DOMA, rid us of Don't Ask Don't Tell, and pass a National Civil Partnership Law that will provide equal marriage rights to all without the touchy "marriage" terminology, then we will all STFU. Oh, and by doing the above, you also address economic and medical insurance issues for a good portion of Americans.
They are also issues that can be addressed pretty quickly and easily, unlike the economy.
Repeal DOMA, rid us of Don't Ask Don't Tell, and pass a National Civil Partnership Law that will provide equal marriage rights to all without the touchy "marriage" terminology, then we will all STFU. Oh, and by doing the above, you also address economic and medical insurance issues for a good portion of Americans.
15
Are gays really playing "top my oppression" as the authors suggest? I don't think saying "hey, we're getting beat up, killed, fired, and denied basic civil rights just like you once were (and in some cases, still are)" is playing a game of one-up-manship.
16
How come whenever a guy tries to talk to girl in Seattle some big gay or bi-sex guy comes out the woodwork to but in and c-block. The guy doesn't even want the chick, he just wants to insert himself into the situation. Is this why people are leaving Puget Sound in droves?
17
Gays have always been "getting beat up, killed, fired [upon], and denied basic civil rights". We've always been the handy all-purpose "let's get that one!" when others are downtrodden upon and can't fight back against their actual oppressors, sort of like a guy who has a bad day at work and then takes it out on the wife & the kids & the pets. Some find succor for their wounds with a giggle at teh gay's expense (even if it's at their own at the same time).
18
AS A POINT OF OBSERVATION-
I am a good looking white guy gay - and - just to add a maybe salient comment, have NEVER met a black guy who would not swing......many, many many, but never too many.....
My personal tate in men has always been wide ranging.... and numerous.
So what does that mean in this stuffy and silly comment about "revulsion" toward homos?
Black churches are an offshoot of Fundie Southern Baptist, so anti gay is news?
This article sucks a lot and is just plain hocus pocus.
I am a good looking white guy gay - and - just to add a maybe salient comment, have NEVER met a black guy who would not swing......many, many many, but never too many.....
My personal tate in men has always been wide ranging.... and numerous.
So what does that mean in this stuffy and silly comment about "revulsion" toward homos?
Black churches are an offshoot of Fundie Southern Baptist, so anti gay is news?
This article sucks a lot and is just plain hocus pocus.
19
Caitlin Flanagan probably isn't the only one with the STFU gays attitude, unfortunately. Check out her Wikipedia page and this Gawker link where her coauthor Schwarz is mentioned:
http://gawker.com/news/caitlin-flanagan/…
Also, from the MSNBC blurb cited on her wikipedia page:
"Feminist? Or anti-feminist? How you view the writings of Caitlin Flanagan depends on which side of that issue you start out on.
The author of the book To Hell With All That: Loving and Loathing Our Inner Housewife is the master of sending mixed messages about modern motherhood and making those on both sides of the fence second-guess their choices. Flanagan, who also has written for the Atlantic Monthly and The New Yorker, often evokes pity for women who “choose” to work full time and forsake the chance to create a warm home environment..
But Flanagan, who purports to be an advocate for stay-at-home moms, is no traditional SAHM herself—she has an extremely successful writing career, which she categorizes as a “hobby.” To allow herself the luxury of that hobby, she has in the past admitted to having a nanny and a housekeeper.
A woman with a high-profile writing career and who has employees to help with the kids and do the laundry? Doesn’t sound like the June Cleaver-existence Flanagan pushes on other women."
http://gawker.com/news/caitlin-flanagan/…
Also, from the MSNBC blurb cited on her wikipedia page:
"Feminist? Or anti-feminist? How you view the writings of Caitlin Flanagan depends on which side of that issue you start out on.
The author of the book To Hell With All That: Loving and Loathing Our Inner Housewife is the master of sending mixed messages about modern motherhood and making those on both sides of the fence second-guess their choices. Flanagan, who also has written for the Atlantic Monthly and The New Yorker, often evokes pity for women who “choose” to work full time and forsake the chance to create a warm home environment..
But Flanagan, who purports to be an advocate for stay-at-home moms, is no traditional SAHM herself—she has an extremely successful writing career, which she categorizes as a “hobby.” To allow herself the luxury of that hobby, she has in the past admitted to having a nanny and a housekeeper.
A woman with a high-profile writing career and who has employees to help with the kids and do the laundry? Doesn’t sound like the June Cleaver-existence Flanagan pushes on other women."
20
18: "My personal taste in men has always been wide ranging.... and numerous."
That's the problem. Gays rapidly exhaust their supply of partners and now have spilled into the heterosexual community to harass and abuse people unless they "try something new".
That's the problem. Gays rapidly exhaust their supply of partners and now have spilled into the heterosexual community to harass and abuse people unless they "try something new".
21
justdemandin' @14 - You put it in perspective SO well!
Hope you've sent your postcard to Obama. I think I'll do another and quote you.
Hope you've sent your postcard to Obama. I think I'll do another and quote you.
22
What a sarcastic, condescending article.
No, #15, we're not and never have. African Americans play that game all the time, however. They truly believe they own the term "civil rights," and unfortunately, too many people back them up on this, for whatever reason.
How fucking insulting for the authors to bring up the Bible when talking about African Americans' long fight for "equality," but ignore the fact that oppression of gay people is also in that very same book.
For centuries sodomy held a death sentence. In some countries it still does. Homosexuals have been oppressed all over the world since the beginning of recorded history and the fact that they could "pass" or hide in the shadows doesn't diminish their suffering. Just read Stephan Likosky's Coming Out (Pantheon Books, 1992), and you'll see that even Canada has shameful, criminal oppression of gays and lesbians in its history.
How the authors think the "they think it's icky" argument is worth even a second of consideration is beyond me.
Oh, and saying that Martin Luther King was a Christian doesn't automatically legitimize that religion's bigotry. MLK wasn't infallible.
No, #15, we're not and never have. African Americans play that game all the time, however. They truly believe they own the term "civil rights," and unfortunately, too many people back them up on this, for whatever reason.
How fucking insulting for the authors to bring up the Bible when talking about African Americans' long fight for "equality," but ignore the fact that oppression of gay people is also in that very same book.
For centuries sodomy held a death sentence. In some countries it still does. Homosexuals have been oppressed all over the world since the beginning of recorded history and the fact that they could "pass" or hide in the shadows doesn't diminish their suffering. Just read Stephan Likosky's Coming Out (Pantheon Books, 1992), and you'll see that even Canada has shameful, criminal oppression of gays and lesbians in its history.
How the authors think the "they think it's icky" argument is worth even a second of consideration is beyond me.
Oh, and saying that Martin Luther King was a Christian doesn't automatically legitimize that religion's bigotry. MLK wasn't infallible.
23
.. does duanna johnson fit anywhere in the ' discussion' about rights and oppression ?
http://www.memphisflyer.com/memphis/Cont…
http://www.memphisflyer.com/memphis/Cont…
24
It seems to me these STFU people are the real enemies of the civil rights movement. Let's just sweep under the rug, "don't want to ask too many questions", as the end of their article says.
Seems to me national security (DADT) is a major issue. How many arabic translators were kicked out of the various services because they were homos?
Seems to me national security (DADT) is a major issue. How many arabic translators were kicked out of the various services because they were homos?
25
#20
you ara pervert - I also remember not doing much teaching .... seems it is more like pent up demand than pushing something on the un willing
you ara pervert - I also remember not doing much teaching .... seems it is more like pent up demand than pushing something on the un willing
28
Dan, this is not an issue that you can work from the top down. Only ~35% of Americans support gay marriage. That sucks, but pretending it's not true and asking our new President to cut his teeth on this issue is political suicide. Until you win "hearts and minds" through ground up political action, no politician is going to touch this issue.
Meanwhile, 80% of Americans support letting gays serve openly in the military. Can we perhaps focus on winning the winnable fights first?
Meanwhile, 80% of Americans support letting gays serve openly in the military. Can we perhaps focus on winning the winnable fights first?
29
Gays in the Military and the Clinton first 100 days. Ring a bell? Universal health care is a civil right too. More urgent than gay marriage?
30
Barack Obama
Opposes same-sex marriage, but also opposes a constitutional ban. Says he would repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment. As stated on the Obama campaign Web site, he supports full civil unions that "give same-sex couples equal legal rights and privileges as married couples, including the right to assist their loved ones in times of emergency as well as equal health insurance, employment benefits, and property and adoption rights."
Opposes same-sex marriage, but also opposes a constitutional ban. Says he would repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment. As stated on the Obama campaign Web site, he supports full civil unions that "give same-sex couples equal legal rights and privileges as married couples, including the right to assist their loved ones in times of emergency as well as equal health insurance, employment benefits, and property and adoption rights."
31
Confidential to the STFU crowd:
No matter how "wise" it would be for gays to quit complaining, that ain't gonna happen. Get used to it.
No matter how "wise" it would be for gays to quit complaining, that ain't gonna happen. Get used to it.
32
Dan Savage - you still have not learned have you? You refuse to look at the process as well as the end result. Nobody disputes the fairness of having marital rights, protection on the job, etc. You just don't get that how you go about that is key as well. Ask yourself this question. Why do you insist on focusing exclusively on the African American community's homophobia and not the white community's homophobia? Here is an equally tough question to ask. Why is it that the whole of these marriage debates center around Prop. 8 in California when anti-gay marriage bans passed in nearly 40 other states as well? What should THAT tell us about who we should be addressing when it comes to homophobia? For you and the arrogant who continue to support you, nothing. Which is exactly what we have in terms of marriage rights. Just like the democrats in general, we need to have a wake-up call and change in political approach [which explains why the latest democrat to run for president in this country won by a landslide and converted some red states to blue - this would be a purple, pragmatic approach - your approach would not be that such approach]. Keep this up and it will be 50 states with bans [and I do not say that with happiness but anger as well]. Here is a tip - the African American community did not achieve every goal it sought with the civil rights movement 40 years ago. No group that has struggled has. So why do we insist on something different? the strategy here is based on a pragmatic view of progress [which means focus on support including the African Americans who have provided that support such as Deval Patrick, David Patterson, the Black Congressional Caucus and Barack Obama] and use them as examples for the community itself. This works a whole lot more effectively than the current approach [which has given us a stellar success rate at defeating marriage bans - not]. Just some advice you won't listen to from African American gay man who clearly knows nothing!
More...
33
@27.. no no.. that the readers of slog helped with giving her a dignified funeral is one beautiful thing. that a national discussion of glbt civil rights doesn't include her death in the fabric of the 'issue' is quite another.
our lives are still very very much up for grabs. our civil rights, which are myriad, should not be parsed out and separated in the national dicussion as this article seems to do.
and to continue to play black against gay provides the atmosphere in which the violence can continue against individuals committed by institutions - in her case the memphis police department - or to people at large - as the recent california and arkansas propositions do. these recent examples belong together in any civil rights discussion. they are part of the same 'big issue'.
our lives are still very very much up for grabs. our civil rights, which are myriad, should not be parsed out and separated in the national dicussion as this article seems to do.
and to continue to play black against gay provides the atmosphere in which the violence can continue against individuals committed by institutions - in her case the memphis police department - or to people at large - as the recent california and arkansas propositions do. these recent examples belong together in any civil rights discussion. they are part of the same 'big issue'.
34
If you wait for civil rights, you will never get them. They have to be demanded. If the democratic party wants my money, my support, my time. They better be on this issue because I'm done. Seriously.
35
Never stop. Never give an inch. The haters and the ignorant will be defeated. They will be defeated.
36
Has anyone pointed out in comments that the NAACP signed on last month to the lawsuit filed by 5 human rights organizations against Prop 8 in CA courts? This is specifically because it IS a human rights issue.
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.…
The NAACP's move is apparently causing some dissension from the more reactionary pastors, but they are also attracting new (younger?) support.
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section…
As has been said repeatedly before, this is a matter of religion and age.
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.…
The NAACP's move is apparently causing some dissension from the more reactionary pastors, but they are also attracting new (younger?) support.
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section…
As has been said repeatedly before, this is a matter of religion and age.
37
Shut up, Dan. Gays don't care about marriage - they got the right in Massachusetts but hardly any gays took advantage of their "equal" right. Read Salon from February 22, 2008. Gays want approval of their lifestyle. That's it. Dan Savage writes with wit but not with intelligence. He is entertainment and frivolous and if he is a leader of this movement, good luck.
38
Injustice is injustice. There are no "levels of injustice". If marriage is a right then it's something that everyone should have. If its not, it's a privilege and one that any group can lose at anytime. Maybe, other groups should start thinking about what it's loss would mean to them.
39
Thank you, Dan, for responding to this piece-of-shit NYT editorial. Either you get it or you don't, and these two clearly don't.
40
"many blacks feel a significant aversion to homosexuality itself, finding it morally and sexually repugnant"
Big whoop. Apparently the authors think this 'feeling' is universal and unchangeable among black people and cannot be questioned or challenged, despite its impact on anyone, cause ooh that would be racist. OK authors, how about this for a mindfuck: maybe your assumptions privileging black homophobia are dismissive and racist? Maybe you are helping maintain attitudes that do enormous damage to people who are black and gay.
And why engage with the "oh, but I think that's icky / unbiblical" argument anyway? That should be irrelevant on matters of civil rights.
Big whoop. Apparently the authors think this 'feeling' is universal and unchangeable among black people and cannot be questioned or challenged, despite its impact on anyone, cause ooh that would be racist. OK authors, how about this for a mindfuck: maybe your assumptions privileging black homophobia are dismissive and racist? Maybe you are helping maintain attitudes that do enormous damage to people who are black and gay.
And why engage with the "oh, but I think that's icky / unbiblical" argument anyway? That should be irrelevant on matters of civil rights.
41
Most of us in the 21st century have learned how to multitask. It is possible to be concerned about the economy, the environment, the wars, and marriage equality (and much, much more) all at the same time.
42
We obviously did stand together on the 4th and voted for Obama. Thats what coalition politics is about. WTF are they actually talking about? That we should shut-up about some issues so that other issues can be dealt with? There's no rule that coalitions have to agree about everything, they even say as much.
@32: Dan is just responding to a BS column, he's not bringing up the African Americans. And that is a separate issue in the column: it refers to people thinking a Clinton vs. McCain election would've have different folks. It notably doesn't cite anyone saying this, and this is the first I've heard of it. It refers to the controversy of the AA vote, without noting the objective facts that new voters (black and otherwise) voted againist Prop 8, that there aren't enough black voters to have made a difference anyways etc. They prefer to just say there's a controversy - a cheap rhetorical trick.
There's a damn good reason we're talking about California and not other states: California revoked an existing right, rather then affirmed the status quo. Thats a huge difference!
Mostly your arguing a straw-man's case though, I don't think anyone is defending the No-on-8 campaign.
@32: Dan is just responding to a BS column, he's not bringing up the African Americans. And that is a separate issue in the column: it refers to people thinking a Clinton vs. McCain election would've have different folks. It notably doesn't cite anyone saying this, and this is the first I've heard of it. It refers to the controversy of the AA vote, without noting the objective facts that new voters (black and otherwise) voted againist Prop 8, that there aren't enough black voters to have made a difference anyways etc. They prefer to just say there's a controversy - a cheap rhetorical trick.
There's a damn good reason we're talking about California and not other states: California revoked an existing right, rather then affirmed the status quo. Thats a huge difference!
Mostly your arguing a straw-man's case though, I don't think anyone is defending the No-on-8 campaign.
43
@42 I am well aware of what Dan is talking about. My point is you engage movements to win not just to employ rhetoric that does not result in rights. The relevance of looking at all marriage bans rather than just California is that we are engaged in a fight at a national level, not just California. Focusing on just California has become counterproductive [unless you can show me a win in the making......I'll be glad to STFU!] No results is what it is. Strategy is realizing you have African American leaders in key positions to help you and taking advantage of that opportunity [rather than attacking the community which is what this tunnel vision attempt at addressing homophobia is doing right now thanks to Dan Savage and company....again if you can show how this will work.....I'll STFU]. Do you have a game plan for doing that....or just another loss to another marriage ban. Game plan folks............think about what the organized anti-gay right must be thinking about regarding Dan's strategy. They are thrilled to use his tunnel vision to make deeper inroads into the African American community. Meanwhile, we sit here at these blogs sowing further division. Real winning strategy here - not!
44
i agree with you, dan. i always cringed when gay rights were thrown into the mix at sensitive election times, thus becoming a divisive wedge issue, but the election is over now (phew!), and it's time to address this stuff head on.
45
Thanks, Dan. You are absolutely right. Sad thing is, we didn't get off our fat complacent asses BEFORE PropH8 was passed! But now we know, thanks to blogs like yours. So ... give us a sign, tell us where to send emails, where to to send letters, where to send money. Show the way!
46
No Dan - don't show us the way. Sorry, but I disagree. Your way has failed us. I want no more marriage bans passed. I will not support an approach that is routed in a lack of strategy and so I will do everything I can to keep intact what little coalition remains. I will not be a lemming marching off the edge of the cliff for Dan. Again, no strategy has been given by Dan. How are you going to stop the next marriage ban Dan? Are we going to email protest the African American and remove their rights Dan? Does that include me as a AA gay man Dan? What's the plan Dan? What will you do differently this time Dan? 40 states today going on 50 tomorrow Dan! No more divisions Dan [unless you can show they work]!
47
Caitlin Flanagan?
She's an insult to every working writer that had to eat buckets of s--- to get to whatever level they were lucky to get to.
She's an insult to every working writer that had to eat buckets of s--- to get to whatever level they were lucky to get to.
48
@7 and 13. Come again? Israel hates gays? Compared to it's neighbors Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Iran? Compared to Nigeria, Sugan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan? Give it up. Israel is a gay paradise compared to everywhere is the muslim world, middle east, and africa (with the exception of South Africa).
Furthmore if you want to look at people who treat others like they were once treated, you could look a little closer to home. Some of the biggest Nazi's around are black. Look at the Crown Heights lynching, Freddy Fashion Mart Massacre, hate crimes towards Asians (esp Koreans). Most of these things are still considered justified or at least condoned by most African Americans. Look at the Pueto Rican Day rape-fest a few years ago. The two biggest rape hoaxes have been presented to use by black "civil rights" leaders (Tawana Brawley and the Duke Laccrosse). Look into these things and you will see people who have read the KKK's playbook, then inflicted it on other minorities, with no regard for the history of oppression of the group they are targeting.
Furthmore if you want to look at people who treat others like they were once treated, you could look a little closer to home. Some of the biggest Nazi's around are black. Look at the Crown Heights lynching, Freddy Fashion Mart Massacre, hate crimes towards Asians (esp Koreans). Most of these things are still considered justified or at least condoned by most African Americans. Look at the Pueto Rican Day rape-fest a few years ago. The two biggest rape hoaxes have been presented to use by black "civil rights" leaders (Tawana Brawley and the Duke Laccrosse). Look into these things and you will see people who have read the KKK's playbook, then inflicted it on other minorities, with no regard for the history of oppression of the group they are targeting.
50
they got the right in Massachusetts but hardly any gays took advantage of their "equal" right
And that places gay folk about where with regard to heterosexuals and their 50 percent plus divorce rate?
Jackass...
And that places gay folk about where with regard to heterosexuals and their 50 percent plus divorce rate?
Jackass...
51
Why do you insist on focusing exclusively on the African American community's homophobia and not the white community's homophobia?
Which Dan Savage is this we're talking about here...?
Which Dan Savage is this we're talking about here...?
52
Richard smith, propose action rather then condemming others proposed actions if you want to start this change. You sound really fed up, use that passion for showing people a different way instead of just ranting.
53
Dan,
Like you, I am a gay man who voted for Obama. I think that we have to take some responsibility for voting for a candidate who himself has stated that he doesn't support gay marriage (although he does support extending full civil rights to gays). I didn't vote for Ralph Nader, who does support gay marriage, because he is a vanity candidate who had no chance of winning the election (not to mention the fact that he is a complete asshole). My point is that Obama's election was due, in part, to a political strategy that gave less weight to one issue that is important to gays (gay marriage) than a host of other issues that are important to liberals in general (the economy, changing our foreign policy, not starting unnecessary wars, etc...). If gay marriage were such an important issue, shouldn't we gays have endorsed a presidential candidate who supported it?
Like you, I am a gay man who voted for Obama. I think that we have to take some responsibility for voting for a candidate who himself has stated that he doesn't support gay marriage (although he does support extending full civil rights to gays). I didn't vote for Ralph Nader, who does support gay marriage, because he is a vanity candidate who had no chance of winning the election (not to mention the fact that he is a complete asshole). My point is that Obama's election was due, in part, to a political strategy that gave less weight to one issue that is important to gays (gay marriage) than a host of other issues that are important to liberals in general (the economy, changing our foreign policy, not starting unnecessary wars, etc...). If gay marriage were such an important issue, shouldn't we gays have endorsed a presidential candidate who supported it?
54
So, let me get this straight, to pardon the pun.
The right of less than seven percent of the country to get married is more important than the concerns of the nearly eighty percent that is worried about losing their jobs, their homes and not being able to finance their children's education?
Really Dan?
Really?
The right of less than seven percent of the country to get married is more important than the concerns of the nearly eighty percent that is worried about losing their jobs, their homes and not being able to finance their children's education?
Really Dan?
Really?
55
For those people, especially the married heterosexual ones, who want us to STFU on this issue because it is not a "big deal" I would pose the following question:
"How big a deal in your life is your ability to live your life and share your life with the person you love?"
I am guessing that for most of these people it is a pretty big deal.
"How big a deal in your life is your ability to live your life and share your life with the person you love?"
I am guessing that for most of these people it is a pretty big deal.
56
Um, OK, actually Israel is the only place in the Mideast where gay people have any rights.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights…
http://digg.com/people/VIDEO_2_Iran_Teen…
The op-ed was appalling.
Um, OK, actually Israel is the only place in the Mideast where gay people have any rights.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights…
http://digg.com/people/VIDEO_2_Iran_Teen…
The op-ed was appalling.
57
The worst part of the Flanagan/Schwartz piece is that it was written from the perspective of two white, straight writers, as if gays and blacks were two groups to be observed rather than actual elements of society that people belong to. Witness the lede describing how a mythical creation called "Hollywood" views both groups, or the way it takes for granted that there is no such creature as a gay black person.
The article was disengenous and disgusting - there is no "blacks vs. gays" struggle, and anyone who attempts to create one should be roundly ignored. All attempts to create ablacks vs. gays situation were dreamed up by straight, white media types, and picked up on by credulous people.
Harping on black homophobia is the #1 top useless activity for marriage-minded gays, and Mr. Savage, that means you. Let's keep our eyes on the real issues here, which is maintaining our dignity and fighting the battles we can win in the short term. If we keep doing that, we'll win in the long term.
The article was disengenous and disgusting - there is no "blacks vs. gays" struggle, and anyone who attempts to create one should be roundly ignored. All attempts to create ablacks vs. gays situation were dreamed up by straight, white media types, and picked up on by credulous people.
Harping on black homophobia is the #1 top useless activity for marriage-minded gays, and Mr. Savage, that means you. Let's keep our eyes on the real issues here, which is maintaining our dignity and fighting the battles we can win in the short term. If we keep doing that, we'll win in the long term.
58
Mr. Schwarz is exactly wrong. He defends homophobia with an ends justifies the means argument. Hasn't 8 years of Bush taught us the error of that thinking. Gay rights do not need to top the African American struggle and they aren't trying to. Some people are trying to put that out there but it isn't right. We want our equal rights different as they may be to the black cause. Also this singling out the blacks is wrong. They are one of many groups who practiced discrimination at the ballot box Nov. 4, 2008. I have a legal right and a religious right to have my bond with another man honored the same way a straight couple does. Its that simple. All this other talk gives the forces of discrimination a legitimacy which they don't deserve. Obama's election is a breakthrough and it means that there is no longer valid basis for anti gay legalities whether or not anyone realizes the fact. It also means that now is the time to stop anti gay bigotry along with fixing our Bush broken country.
59
To borrow a line from the great movie, "Milk," this isn't just an issue, this is our lives we're fighting for.
60
Anyone interested in the depth of aversion "many" africanamericans feel toward homosexuality would undoubtedly find informative a perusal of craigslist classified posts under "m4m" in the DC craigslist postings. it's a veritable beehive of "downlow" african american men trolling for sex with other african american men. Of course, DC africanamericans also have the highest rate of HIV infection in the nation - but the best part of that is that most new cases are among "heterosexuals" - or, at least, among those who publicly call themselves heterosexuals while sleeping with others of the same sex, or with those of the opposite sex who sleep with the same sex... Ah, the joys of ignorance and hypocricy!
61
57 - if you think there's no african american vs gay struggle then you've never lived in Washington, DC. In 25 years of living here I've never witnessed a more bigoted, homophobic,ignorant, racist group of people than DC blacks.
And gay DC blacks know it, too. The most popular gay bar for black men in DC is in an overwhelmingly white neighborhood - because the devotees of the bar know they won't be beaten or killed by neighborhood residents as they would (and are, and have been) in a predominantly black neighborhood.
And gay DC blacks know it, too. The most popular gay bar for black men in DC is in an overwhelmingly white neighborhood - because the devotees of the bar know they won't be beaten or killed by neighborhood residents as they would (and are, and have been) in a predominantly black neighborhood.
62
We continue to be led around by the nose by our opponents. No one benefits more from this "family" squabble than the GOP. A single exit poll has taken hold of the public debate about civil rights, even though that exit poll was deeply flawed. Shame on everybody for taking it as, pardon the term, gospel truth. Subsequent analysis shows black support of Prop 8 at about 57%, slightly higher than Hispanic support but far from the 70% bandied about.
Look at the precinct-by-precinct results. In the Bay Area, heavily black areas voted NO. If results in SoCal were radically different -- and I don't think the difference was THAT large -- perhaps it is because minority communities in the Southland are larger and more distinct. Maybe there hasn't been as much cooperation. Maybe it's just because Southern California is more conservative. And maybe, just maybe, all it means is that enough good people can be scared into irrational fear by a despicable political campaign of lies and distortion at the direction of our "moral leaders".
Look at the precinct-by-precinct results. In the Bay Area, heavily black areas voted NO. If results in SoCal were radically different -- and I don't think the difference was THAT large -- perhaps it is because minority communities in the Southland are larger and more distinct. Maybe there hasn't been as much cooperation. Maybe it's just because Southern California is more conservative. And maybe, just maybe, all it means is that enough good people can be scared into irrational fear by a despicable political campaign of lies and distortion at the direction of our "moral leaders".
63
#61 - I have lived in DC, actually, and while I'm not a gay man I'm familiar with the situation you describe. I'm not denying the fact of black homophobia, I just think it's not constructive to finger black people as the primary impediment to gay marriage. #62 lays out the reasons why quite well, so I don't have to.
No one likes to be called names, and so marriage-minded gays need to talk to and work with the black community rather than call them homophobes. That's all I'm saying.
No one likes to be called names, and so marriage-minded gays need to talk to and work with the black community rather than call them homophobes. That's all I'm saying.
64
I was at the first post-election 'No on 8' rally in San Francisco and almost like a cartoon, a late-20s black man walked by me with his two kids; one of them asked why there was a protest. The man told his kids "they want to teach that gay shit in schools." The kid asked what gay was. The man said "you know, man-on-man." I don't doubt the bigotry in the black community.
But I don't have to look too far in the gay male community in San Francisco to see bigotry (lots of ugly comments related to black teenagers coming to Halloween in the Castro; bars denying admission to black men) or misogyny (that women's washroom key you give me with a fish on it? not cute.)
And can someone explain to me how the firmly held beliefs of the gay community led to voting for McCain-Palin in the highest proportion ever for a Republican ticket?
Clearly many gay people felt sufficiently un-oppressed to vote for the *party* of bigotry - and economic mismanagement, and war, and no health care for children, and so on...
What, again, are the big issues?
But I don't have to look too far in the gay male community in San Francisco to see bigotry (lots of ugly comments related to black teenagers coming to Halloween in the Castro; bars denying admission to black men) or misogyny (that women's washroom key you give me with a fish on it? not cute.)
And can someone explain to me how the firmly held beliefs of the gay community led to voting for McCain-Palin in the highest proportion ever for a Republican ticket?
Clearly many gay people felt sufficiently un-oppressed to vote for the *party* of bigotry - and economic mismanagement, and war, and no health care for children, and so on...
What, again, are the big issues?
66
There *are* no big issues other than gay marriage, evelyn. Say what you will against the church, at least it has a social gospel. I also highly doubt that the Mormons, had they lost, would have shouted racial slurs at blacks.
67
Richard, I swear this isn't Dan. I was merely pointing out that this space reaches many people, and if you wished to be the conduit for change instead of blind outrage at others proposed actions disseminate information at how to help our community more effectively. Do not see this as a personal attack, more of a oppurtunity to share your beliefs as to what actions would be more appropriate.
68
@37 Yes Dan is glib and funny and witty but he doesn't know how to think strategically and he is blind to context. Anger may be the necessary precursor for change but it is not a strategy.
@61. I lived in DC too-- at a time when there were three black clubs and all of them were in black neighborhoods -- and the antipathy I recall wasn't gay vs. black, it was more of a tripartite divide that comprised gay (read white gay), black gay and "black"
It's pitiful but true. These notions of alliances and affiliations a lot of us hold just don't square with reality. There is a tremendous amount of de facto segregation still in American society. When you add gay to the mix it gets a little more complex but the original social segregation along racial lines remains in tact to a dispiriting degree.
I stick by what I've said elsewhere in these comments: There is no such thing as a gay community. Of course no community is a monolith and maybe socializing based on identity is a bad thing, but of all the basis for community, sexual orientation is the weakest, which is why some gay black people put up with a lot of ignorant bigoted homophobic bullshit from the black "community" because its their primary community.
When the day comes that the bulk of the gay rights struggle is accomplished, the so called gay community will dissolve. You heard it here first!
@61. I lived in DC too-- at a time when there were three black clubs and all of them were in black neighborhoods -- and the antipathy I recall wasn't gay vs. black, it was more of a tripartite divide that comprised gay (read white gay), black gay and "black"
It's pitiful but true. These notions of alliances and affiliations a lot of us hold just don't square with reality. There is a tremendous amount of de facto segregation still in American society. When you add gay to the mix it gets a little more complex but the original social segregation along racial lines remains in tact to a dispiriting degree.
I stick by what I've said elsewhere in these comments: There is no such thing as a gay community. Of course no community is a monolith and maybe socializing based on identity is a bad thing, but of all the basis for community, sexual orientation is the weakest, which is why some gay black people put up with a lot of ignorant bigoted homophobic bullshit from the black "community" because its their primary community.
When the day comes that the bulk of the gay rights struggle is accomplished, the so called gay community will dissolve. You heard it here first!
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