Thursday, December 4, 2008
Religion / Homo Why Are Mormons So Fucking Homophobic?
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:15 AM
Because, Alice Dreger argues, the Mormon "lifestyle" pumps out more gay boys while the Mormon religion pumps those gay boys full of self-hatred.
So if you are a man, the farther down the reproductive chain you were in terms of male fetuses inhabiting your biological mother’s womb, the greater the chance you are gay. Blanchard estimates this effect accounts for the sexual orientation of somewhere around 15-29% of gay men.Why on earth would this happen? That’s not at all clear, but the researchers who have looked at this phenomenon think it may involve some kind of immunological response a woman’s body exhibits to carrying male fetuses, a response whose effect on male fetuses grows stronger with each successive male-fetus pregnancy. This etiology remains theoretical. But the effect does not. In spite of the long-running “gene-gay versus turned-gay” discussions of homosexuality, we have far better data evidencing womb-gayness than we do gene-gayness or turned-gayness.
So what does this have to do with Mormons? Well, given the relatively large size of Mormon families, on average, it is highly likely that gay men are relatively more common among Mormons than among the general population, where family size is, on average, smaller. It’s not just that each Mormon family would have, on average, more sons than the average American family; it’s that the population of Mormons would include more gay men per capita than the general American population. Hmmm….
Put that fact together with a study that purported to show that men who are homophobic are more likely to be sexually aroused to homosexual stimuli….and another purporting to show that homophobic men are more likely to be aggressive towards gay men…and imagine, in turn, that gay (Mormon) men who are forced to be closeted are more likely to become homophobic….
Well, it’s just hard not to wonder if the Mormon declaration of war over Prop. 8 doesn’t have a little something to do with womb-gayness.
Read Dreger's entire post here.
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1
That's what homophobic MEANS -- men who fear homosexuality IN THEMSELVES. That's why it's so stupid when they say stuff like "well, I'm not AFRAID of homosexuals, but...." No one ever said you were, sunshine.
2
One also wonders if generations of forcing gay men to marry and father children wouldn't also tend to increase the incidence of "gay genes" in subsequent generations.
3
Oooh. You know who else has a lot of kids? The Duggars. #18 is on the way (wtf), and I can't wait til all those adorable little boys come out.
4
Hmmm... What other large institution frowns on "unnatural means" of birth control and seems to have intrinsically disordered views on homosexuality?
6
I think a lawyer might call the premise of the piece's title "assuming facts not in evidence"; which is to say, other than Dan and his fan-boys who are still buttsore over Prop 8 who says Mormons are (more) 'homophobic'?
Mormons are not unique, but take a back seat to no one, in believing that homosexual behavior is destructive to the individual who practices it, to the loved ones of said individual and to a society which fosters it.
However Mormons believe the same of pornography, adultery, pre-marital sex, gambling, abortion etc etc.
And Mormons have at various times been encouraged by the Church to participate in civic discourse and attempt to influence the outcome of referendums on many of those topics (gambling, pornography, abortion)
West Coast homosexual activist seem to believe the Mormon Church sprang from the ether in October and exists just to frustrate Gays.
It is closer to the truth to observe that Dan has become an obsessively compulsive 24-7 outed Mormon hater than that Mormons have any particular interest; positive, negative or secret; in homosexuals.
Mormons might argue that homosexuals started the Prop 8 unpleasantness by attempting to alter the definition of marriage.
Dan and his boys will favor themselves when the move on to their next compulsion.
I suspect Mormons already have moved on.
Mormons are not unique, but take a back seat to no one, in believing that homosexual behavior is destructive to the individual who practices it, to the loved ones of said individual and to a society which fosters it.
However Mormons believe the same of pornography, adultery, pre-marital sex, gambling, abortion etc etc.
And Mormons have at various times been encouraged by the Church to participate in civic discourse and attempt to influence the outcome of referendums on many of those topics (gambling, pornography, abortion)
West Coast homosexual activist seem to believe the Mormon Church sprang from the ether in October and exists just to frustrate Gays.
It is closer to the truth to observe that Dan has become an obsessively compulsive 24-7 outed Mormon hater than that Mormons have any particular interest; positive, negative or secret; in homosexuals.
Mormons might argue that homosexuals started the Prop 8 unpleasantness by attempting to alter the definition of marriage.
Dan and his boys will favor themselves when the move on to their next compulsion.
I suspect Mormons already have moved on.
9
(While yer beating up on the Mormons, Dan, you might want to save some ironic, schadenfreudian vitriol for Catholics, who have some pretty large families as well...)
10
You really need to look into who is publishing this stuff before you give it credibility.
http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/alice-dreg…
http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/ray-blanch…
http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/human-biod…
http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/alice-dreg…
http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/ray-blanch…
http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/human-biod…
15
We all know that God rewards homophobic communities with especially large numbers of gay children. This theory suggests a mechanism, doesn't it?
16
Seriously, OUT the mormon church, just like OutRage! did with the Anglican church in UK. Might hurt a bit at first, but will be a good move in the long run.
18
So eventually there should be a fundamentalist gay church of latter day saints in which older gay men have harems of multiple younger gay "husbands"
19
Fnarf for the win @1.
The vast and overwhelming majority of those railing against homosexuality are themselves closeted gays.
Real men don't really care that much - just less competition (if male) or more hot threesomes (if female).
Seriously, that's the general attitude out there - I grew up where most guys thought that way.
The vast and overwhelming majority of those railing against homosexuality are themselves closeted gays.
Real men don't really care that much - just less competition (if male) or more hot threesomes (if female).
Seriously, that's the general attitude out there - I grew up where most guys thought that way.
20
Feh, my mom had four children, all male, and none of us are gay.
Curmudgeons, bi-polars, drunks, and tweakers (in order of birth), yes, but no 'mos.
Curmudgeons, bi-polars, drunks, and tweakers (in order of birth), yes, but no 'mos.
21
@ 17
Natural selection doesn't select for individuals that sacrifice themselves or their children for reasons of "over-population", because the ones who cheat (breed) will do better.
Natural selection doesn't select for individuals that sacrifice themselves or their children for reasons of "over-population", because the ones who cheat (breed) will do better.
22
I've always thought all the latently homosexual bigots can't be fully explained by them trying to overcompensate and cover up for their secret desires, by being anti-gay. I'm betting there's a portion of them for which, the homophobic religion/family/society they grow up in is making it so taboo that that makes it fun.
24
It's what I've always said. Loud mouth homophobes who like to attack out, gay men are jealous. Just plain jealous. They would love to wrap their lips around a dick and it drives them mad with jealousy that someone does it and doesn't hate themselves for doing it. J-E-A-L-O-U-S
26
@2, "gay genes"? have seen no science pointing to such. seen science pointing to "epigenetic" and intrauterine environment as possible causes. also, just off the top of my head, wouldn't mo's be present in populations in different concentrations if it was genetic, ie: running in families, more prevalent among certain ethnicities/geographic locations?
27
@26: I wrote on this question, reviewing some recent papers.
http://dearscience.org/2008/06/25/wait-w…
http://dearscience.org/2008/06/25/wait-w…
28
@26: Golob beat me to it. That link is worth reading, btw. And I considered adding "hypothetical" or some other qualifier to "gay genes" but I figured the quotes would cover it.
31
Regarding the statement in #6:
"Mormons might argue that homosexuals started the Prop 8 unpleasantness by attempting to alter the definition of marriage."
This "redefine definition of marriage" notion is hogwash. The California constitution did not change (before Prop 8 passed); same-gender marriage *always* was legal there. The California Supreme Court just forced the government to comply with the Constitution. It is the yes-on-8 people that redefined marriage, causing the state to interfere with (some) religions -- which is supposed to be unconstitutional. We'll see what the California Supreme Court says about that in a few months. It's clear what the California legislature thinks - repeal 8. http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12…
"Mormons might argue that homosexuals started the Prop 8 unpleasantness by attempting to alter the definition of marriage."
This "redefine definition of marriage" notion is hogwash. The California constitution did not change (before Prop 8 passed); same-gender marriage *always* was legal there. The California Supreme Court just forced the government to comply with the Constitution. It is the yes-on-8 people that redefined marriage, causing the state to interfere with (some) religions -- which is supposed to be unconstitutional. We'll see what the California Supreme Court says about that in a few months. It's clear what the California legislature thinks - repeal 8. http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12…
32
My dad is the oldest of 4 boys. Number 3, my uncle, is gay. Guess my granny's womb got a little allergic to testosterone around 1960 and thus we have Uncle Eugene. Not that this "proves" anything, but just to counteract @20's point.
33
There's some filmmaker guy who said growing up Mormon was fairly good preparation for gay life. You're not supposed to hang around with girls anyway, and when you're 18, you get to go and live overseas and share a bedroom with another 18 y.o. guy...
34
@ COMTE #20,
But if your mother had had a fifth son, he would have been gayer than Libberace and she would've been relieved she had one "normal" child. At least if my mother is to be believed, that would have been what happened.
But if your mother had had a fifth son, he would have been gayer than Libberace and she would've been relieved she had one "normal" child. At least if my mother is to be believed, that would have been what happened.
35
@31
California VOTERS by a wide margin declared marriage to be between man and woman.
A single judge threw out the will of 10 million voters and substituted his personal prejudice.
The VOTERS reaffirmed their will in Prop 8.
You pick and choose who you will listen to and take one judge who agrees with you over the clearly stated two-time decision of the entire state populace.
You'll forgive us if we don't see your position as one on the moral or legal high ground but rather in a cesspool of self serving shit.
California VOTERS by a wide margin declared marriage to be between man and woman.
A single judge threw out the will of 10 million voters and substituted his personal prejudice.
The VOTERS reaffirmed their will in Prop 8.
You pick and choose who you will listen to and take one judge who agrees with you over the clearly stated two-time decision of the entire state populace.
You'll forgive us if we don't see your position as one on the moral or legal high ground but rather in a cesspool of self serving shit.
38
"California VOTERS by a wide margin declared marriage to be between man and woman."
Uh huh. And if civil liberties were left to the voters, many minorities would be disadvantaged.
I think you have it backwards. Democracy is not the end goal, liberty is. The best way to defend inalienable rights against the tyranny of the majority is with a representative government with checks and balances.
Democracy in and of itself is not a virtue: It is the best tool for the job, most of the time.
I don't really care if teh gayz can't get married in the Mormon Church. (Neither can I. No big.) I do care that they seem to think that it's appropriate to have the law not apply to some citizens.
Separate but equal is neither.
Uh huh. And if civil liberties were left to the voters, many minorities would be disadvantaged.
I think you have it backwards. Democracy is not the end goal, liberty is. The best way to defend inalienable rights against the tyranny of the majority is with a representative government with checks and balances.
Democracy in and of itself is not a virtue: It is the best tool for the job, most of the time.
I don't really care if teh gayz can't get married in the Mormon Church. (Neither can I. No big.) I do care that they seem to think that it's appropriate to have the law not apply to some citizens.
Separate but equal is neither.
39
Obviously the people of California are too STUPID to govern themselves.
They need a homosexual Judge to throw out their laws and tell them what to do. I think they call that dictatorship in other places.
They need a homosexual Judge to throw out their laws and tell them what to do. I think they call that dictatorship in other places.
40
Perfect reason for the film industry to move to Canada, I mean, if it hadn't already.
Julie, according to Dan's writing he is indeed a third son. (Or did your bird emoticon mean you already knew that? I am so old.)
Julie, according to Dan's writing he is indeed a third son. (Or did your bird emoticon mean you already knew that? I am so old.)
41
@ 19 22 24
I always heard it was the otherway around, your typical bitter bitching gay was deep down a frustrated washed up Mormon wannabe.
I always heard it was the otherway around, your typical bitter bitching gay was deep down a frustrated washed up Mormon wannabe.
42
@32 - there's the gay 'gene! *get* it??!? BWA haha!
okay, the k chronicles already did that joke, but it was begging to be said.
i read a very compelling argument that maternal stress was a greater predictor of gay-ness than any other factor, including birth order. i wish i could remember the source, it was really interesting, because when i applied it anecdotally to mothers of people i know who are gay, it seemed to work out. and of course, under the theorem above, the more kids a gal has - ever babysit four kids at once? try it sometime - the more stress she is *likely* to be under, though it was only prolonged, unalleviated stress that was a factor, not single incidents of stress even if strung together.
lots of kids doesn't equal prolonged stress for every mom - some women genuinely want large families, love being pregnant, and enjoy the baby stage even when they have older kids to care for; my mum is like that. but if you interview ones who don't, it's interesting to count up the number of gay kids they have.
@30 - dan is #3 of 4
okay, the k chronicles already did that joke, but it was begging to be said.
i read a very compelling argument that maternal stress was a greater predictor of gay-ness than any other factor, including birth order. i wish i could remember the source, it was really interesting, because when i applied it anecdotally to mothers of people i know who are gay, it seemed to work out. and of course, under the theorem above, the more kids a gal has - ever babysit four kids at once? try it sometime - the more stress she is *likely* to be under, though it was only prolonged, unalleviated stress that was a factor, not single incidents of stress even if strung together.
lots of kids doesn't equal prolonged stress for every mom - some women genuinely want large families, love being pregnant, and enjoy the baby stage even when they have older kids to care for; my mum is like that. but if you interview ones who don't, it's interesting to count up the number of gay kids they have.
@30 - dan is #3 of 4
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