Thursday, December 4, 2008
Homo Hate Mongers to Menace College Drama Club
Posted by Dominic Holden on Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 4:13 PM
The assholes at Westboro Baptist Church plan to picket a student production of The Laramie Project—a play about the fatal gay-bashing of Matthew Shepard—tomorrow night in Longview, Washington. While Westboro typically dispatches only a few people from its home in Topeka, Kansas to picket a veteran’s funeral and incite hatred against gays, a much larger group of 75 locals are planning a counter protest.
“We feel like our theater program is under assault," says Mark Bergeson, a communications teacher at Lower Columbia College, who is organizing the counter-picket with eight student groups. He wrote this op-ed, and he expects county and city officials to participate in tomorrow's counter-demonstration. Westboro Baptist (which is not actually affiliated with the Baptist church), Bergeson says, “is a hate mongering group masquerading at church.”
While the community is coming to defend the drama club and protest hate groups—Longview residents protested an Aryan Nations meeting there last year—residents aren't necessarily out to defend gay rights.
“On the issue of homophobia itself, you would find mixed opinions here,” says Bergeson. He calls gay rights a civil-rights issue. “It’s better to put it in the spotlight.”
Bergeson wants the counter-demonstration to remain civil and non-confrontational. “The last thing we need is a deceased ex-veteran’s buddy to come down here and pop one of them,” he says. “They are the kings and queens of frivolous lawsuits.”
Disgruntled vet-friends not included, protesters will gather at 6 p.m. in the parking lot near Maple Street and 15th Avenue in Longview, Washington. The picket and counter picket—assuming the Westboro minions show up—will run from 6:30 to 7:30 p.m.
1
Somehow it seems unlikely that "an ex-veteran's deceased buddy" would be alive enough to pop anyone...
2
@1
Beat me to it...
That would be a nice trick though.
And I suspect no (earthly) court could have jurisdiction over the deceased... so it might be the ultimate method of avoiding those frivolous law suites...
(And I bet it would scare the living shit out of them if the dead rose to attack them.)
Beat me to it...
That would be a nice trick though.
And I suspect no (earthly) court could have jurisdiction over the deceased... so it might be the ultimate method of avoiding those frivolous law suites...
(And I bet it would scare the living shit out of them if the dead rose to attack them.)
3
@1 You just wait, those ex-verterans will come marching in with their undead army. No one will be safe.
4
Westboro Baptist (which is not actually affiliated with the Baptist church), he says, “is a hate mongering group masquerading at church.”
They are certainty a hate group, but they're not masquerading. Their view point is well supported by the Bible.
They are certainty a hate group, but they're not masquerading. Their view point is well supported by the Bible.
5
I sincerely hope that when Fred Phelps dies, people show up at his funeral with signs declaring his imminent descent to Hell.
It would only be fair.
It would only be fair.
6
@4
Actually, it is not "well supported" by the Bible. There are lots of areas of faith and doctrine that are "well supported" by the Bible, but this (happily) is not one of them...
Actually, it is not "well supported" by the Bible. There are lots of areas of faith and doctrine that are "well supported" by the Bible, but this (happily) is not one of them...
7
ZOMG, why didn't we think of it b4? A zombie army to beat up the nutjobs!
8
@6 Really? Have you read the thing? Because in the one I read God is just the kind of dick they say he is and gays are not well liked by him.
9
Westboro's protests are good for our side. Making anti-homo people look like raving lunatics is a good thing, not a bad thing. Associating "God hates fags" with "God hates America" in the minds of the good people of Vancouver will make at least a few of them rethink their support for the former sentiment.
Funerals? No. But outside a theater? Hell, yes. Bring 'em on. I'll bet they double his attendance.
Funerals? No. But outside a theater? Hell, yes. Bring 'em on. I'll bet they double his attendance.
10
*Ahem!* Lower Columbia College is in Longview, NOT Vancouver.
Give those wing-nutters what-for Don...
Give those wing-nutters what-for Don...
11
they are good at lawsuits - really, touch one and you'll be in court for years, i still think the best way to get rid of them is to ignor them. every TV camera like gold to groups like this.
12
@8
The Bible describes three emotionally close relationships between two people of the same gender.
They appear to have progressed well beyond a casual friendship:
Ruth and Naomi
David and Jonathan
Daniel and Ashpenaz
Daniel’s relationship appears to have been a committed homosexual partnership; the others may or may not have been sexually active. None of these relationships were condemned.
Homosexual activity in the temple by male prostitutes is clearly prohibited by the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament).
Prostitution, both heterosexual and homosexual is generally condemned.
Sexual abuse of boys by adult males is condemned.
St. Paul considered at least some male and female homosexual acts to be forbidden, but it is unclear precisely which acts are included. He may have been referring to: (A) temple prostitution, (B) people who are not innately gay, lesbian or bisexual, but who engaged in homosexual acts, (C) to child sexual abuse, or (D) group sexual orgies.
Paul was certainly aware of sexual orgies in Pagan temples, including both heterosexual and homosexual encounters. He would have been aware of the practice of male adults keeping a boy for sexual purposes.
These may have been the only forms of same gender sex that he knew of. He did not appear to make any references in his writings to consentual, committed homosexual relationships. He probably did not know of any.
One should note that Paul also condemned women preaching (1 Cor 14:34) or wearing gold or pearls (1 Tim 2:11). He also accepted and did not condemn the institution of slavery.
Many Christians feel that his writings reflect his own prejudices are not a particularly useful guide for ethics and morals in the 20th Century.
Jesus made many hundreds of statements regarding belief and behavior. However He never mentioned homosexuality.
It is the subject of endless debate whether St. Paul’s prohibition of at least some homosexual acts was: (A) for the people in the vicinity of the Mediterranean during the 1st Century CE, or (B) for all people, forever.
So... yeah... no "well supported" positions against committed homosexual relationships, and at least three that are possibly in favor for committed homosexual relationships.
More...
The Bible describes three emotionally close relationships between two people of the same gender.
They appear to have progressed well beyond a casual friendship:
Ruth and Naomi
David and Jonathan
Daniel and Ashpenaz
Daniel’s relationship appears to have been a committed homosexual partnership; the others may or may not have been sexually active. None of these relationships were condemned.
Homosexual activity in the temple by male prostitutes is clearly prohibited by the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament).
Prostitution, both heterosexual and homosexual is generally condemned.
Sexual abuse of boys by adult males is condemned.
St. Paul considered at least some male and female homosexual acts to be forbidden, but it is unclear precisely which acts are included. He may have been referring to: (A) temple prostitution, (B) people who are not innately gay, lesbian or bisexual, but who engaged in homosexual acts, (C) to child sexual abuse, or (D) group sexual orgies.
Paul was certainly aware of sexual orgies in Pagan temples, including both heterosexual and homosexual encounters. He would have been aware of the practice of male adults keeping a boy for sexual purposes.
These may have been the only forms of same gender sex that he knew of. He did not appear to make any references in his writings to consentual, committed homosexual relationships. He probably did not know of any.
One should note that Paul also condemned women preaching (1 Cor 14:34) or wearing gold or pearls (1 Tim 2:11). He also accepted and did not condemn the institution of slavery.
Many Christians feel that his writings reflect his own prejudices are not a particularly useful guide for ethics and morals in the 20th Century.
Jesus made many hundreds of statements regarding belief and behavior. However He never mentioned homosexuality.
It is the subject of endless debate whether St. Paul’s prohibition of at least some homosexual acts was: (A) for the people in the vicinity of the Mediterranean during the 1st Century CE, or (B) for all people, forever.
So... yeah... no "well supported" positions against committed homosexual relationships, and at least three that are possibly in favor for committed homosexual relationships.
13
I remember a Phelps protest/counterprotest that was outside the Eagle a few years back. The bartenders were a little freaked out. Someone gave me a nice little commemorative handjob as I sat sipping a pint at the bar.
14
@12 - You get an 'A +' on that answer!
15
My sister saw a Westboro protest in PDX last week, with a much stronger counter-protest. Around one Westboro person with a "God Hates Fags" sign, were counter-protesters holding hilarious signs reading "(Seriously, I don't think God really hates fags)" and "God Hates Fuzzy Little Kittens."
16
YGTBKM, I take back everything mean I ever said about you.
17
@12
By the time you get finished mangling and distorting scripture to fit your world view you might as well prostrate yourself before a rock and worship it.
By the time you get finished mangling and distorting scripture to fit your world view you might as well prostrate yourself before a rock and worship it.
18
You've got to admit someone was a little rough with Sodom and Gomorrah.
I'm just saying...
I'm just saying...
20
YOU ALL -go to these counter Phelps et al. protests - WITH ONE THING IN MIND - free speech is your shield, and you may shout the most interesting foul foul invective slogans at them that your mind can think of
there is no other place where or when it feels so good
nary a word will be said about shutting up cause the bulk of the crowd is in the same mood
ASSHOLES AND MOTHERFUCKERS is just the beginning - let it rip
remember free speech in the open air of the Vancouver eve and total catharsis - YOU MOTHERFUCKING ASSHOLES ...... AND ....... AND .....
just do it the next chance, esp. if old Fred is there, he gets very red in the face, but, his kids are meaner
they are all attorneys in the Kansas bar ... amazing beyond any soap opera plot
it is astonishing the bikers have not blown the whole bunch away with a multi volley of shot guns loaded with killer slug ammo ... but who knows
there is no other place where or when it feels so good
nary a word will be said about shutting up cause the bulk of the crowd is in the same mood
ASSHOLES AND MOTHERFUCKERS is just the beginning - let it rip
remember free speech in the open air of the Vancouver eve and total catharsis - YOU MOTHERFUCKING ASSHOLES ...... AND ....... AND .....
just do it the next chance, esp. if old Fred is there, he gets very red in the face, but, his kids are meaner
they are all attorneys in the Kansas bar ... amazing beyond any soap opera plot
it is astonishing the bikers have not blown the whole bunch away with a multi volley of shot guns loaded with killer slug ammo ... but who knows
21
Shot guns? Ammo? "Motherfucking assholes"? I think not. That's what they want you to do. If you want to piss them off, kiss your lover on the mouth, and make sure they can see you. Wear nice clothes, so they can see that you live well. Laugh. Offer them candy.
22
Incite, not insight, hatred.
23
Thanks, YGBKM @12. People interpret the Bible to say whatever they want it to say. Just because these idiots say God Hates Fags doesn't mean all people of faith agree with them. It should be noted that when they appear in Seattle gay friendly churches (my own included) are usually on their hit list.
24
@ 1 & 22) I have fixed my error and vow to embark henceforth on a journey of typographical vigilance.
25
@18
The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was actually inhospitality and hostility to strangers.
The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was actually inhospitality and hostility to strangers.
26
Westboro Baptist (which is not actually affiliated with the Baptist church)...
'Baptist' is more a denomination then a church per say. The individual congregations are all...at least they are supposed to be...independent of one another. There is no central Baptist authority or committee.
(was raised in a Baptist household)
'Baptist' is more a denomination then a church per say. The individual congregations are all...at least they are supposed to be...independent of one another. There is no central Baptist authority or committee.
(was raised in a Baptist household)
27
I think they're a bunch of assholes, but I don't understand why people have a problem with the slogan "God hates fags".
"God" DOES hate fags. All religions are anti-queer, anti-woman and anti-sex. You can pour all the liberal perfume you want on the pig of religion, but it's still a pig.
Isn't the greater solution, then, to socially evolve and shitcan religion as a whole?
"God" DOES hate fags. All religions are anti-queer, anti-woman and anti-sex. You can pour all the liberal perfume you want on the pig of religion, but it's still a pig.
Isn't the greater solution, then, to socially evolve and shitcan religion as a whole?
28
@17
Looks like you already have dibs on the Rock God. Enjoy it. Mine is the living God of truth, love and compassion.
Looks like you already have dibs on the Rock God. Enjoy it. Mine is the living God of truth, love and compassion.
29
Maybe if the school took all the homosexual references out of The Laramie Project like that high school had to do with Rent then maybe the Westboro folks/dicks would go away.
30
Those Westboro folks will melt if you throw salt on them.
31
#21
god, it is a good thing you were NEVER involved in Act Up
straight men protecting Phelps and all from god old robust insults ... oh sure, fnarf, we should just get out our tutus and hair ribbons and dance and sing.... like good little pansies... you don't get it ... I have been to five or six anti Phelps rallies and no, honey, the faire boys did not dress up....
and yes, they join all the other protesters is a good old red bloodied robust American anti hate rally
Shouting motherfucker with truck drivers, mechanics, white and blue collar, and bikers ....well, it feels damn good and very OK to me
you want to dance and prance, go to it, to each his own
god, it is a good thing you were NEVER involved in Act Up
straight men protecting Phelps and all from god old robust insults ... oh sure, fnarf, we should just get out our tutus and hair ribbons and dance and sing.... like good little pansies... you don't get it ... I have been to five or six anti Phelps rallies and no, honey, the faire boys did not dress up....
and yes, they join all the other protesters is a good old red bloodied robust American anti hate rally
Shouting motherfucker with truck drivers, mechanics, white and blue collar, and bikers ....well, it feels damn good and very OK to me
you want to dance and prance, go to it, to each his own
32
#30 - nice thought, but, I like slugs, esp the giant greenish ones
you know the tribes used to eat them
you know the tribes used to eat them
33
Umm...Longview is not that close to Vancouver. They are about 45 miles apart.
34
@12 and 25, That's a very modern interpretation of those passages. I have read all those stories and passages in various translations and looked into the original words and they just don't say what you say they say. Homosexuality has been rather verboten in the judeo-christian world for a long ass time.
The whole hospitality issue in regards to Sodom and Gomorrah also does not work. You could say it was about rape, but that's even a stretch. What is more likely? That the Jewish people like many undeveloped cultures thought gays were icky, or that they were one of the most progressive societies that has ever existed?
The real truth is that the Bible is simply wrong. Like all holy books its chock full of shit that was considered true by random primitive peoples. Just like when one reads Aristotle one has to accept that his grasp of science was a bit off.
Stop trying to make the bible conform to modern morality. It can't and won't because it was written before modern morality.
The whole hospitality issue in regards to Sodom and Gomorrah also does not work. You could say it was about rape, but that's even a stretch. What is more likely? That the Jewish people like many undeveloped cultures thought gays were icky, or that they were one of the most progressive societies that has ever existed?
The real truth is that the Bible is simply wrong. Like all holy books its chock full of shit that was considered true by random primitive peoples. Just like when one reads Aristotle one has to accept that his grasp of science was a bit off.
Stop trying to make the bible conform to modern morality. It can't and won't because it was written before modern morality.
35
Any theological discussions about the proper Biblical interpretations of the writings of Paul or what-have-you are sort of moot with regards to the Westboro Baptist clan, on account of they don't give a good goddamn about any interpretation of the Bible that doesn't come straight from the mouth of Papa Fred himself, and he's obviously got a psychotic fixation on gays in general and buttsex in particular.
That said, @34, I gotta ask: Are you actually trying to talk a progressive Christian who believes God is cool with the homos OUT of believing that? What's your problem? If religious people wanna try to bring their faiths along into the twenty-first century, I say let 'em -- it's not like a non-believer has anything to gain by insisting on strict scriptural interpretations anyway. I don't have to believe what they believe, but I'd rather have them on my side.
That said, @34, I gotta ask: Are you actually trying to talk a progressive Christian who believes God is cool with the homos OUT of believing that? What's your problem? If religious people wanna try to bring their faiths along into the twenty-first century, I say let 'em -- it's not like a non-believer has anything to gain by insisting on strict scriptural interpretations anyway. I don't have to believe what they believe, but I'd rather have them on my side.
36
10 & 33.... Right On. Don Correll is a helluva guy, and I'll bet it will be a helluva production.
37
Best way to deal with these people is ignore them.
38
#34.. so where's the cutoff point between old morality and the new ?
judeo christianity might be slow but it progresses..which is why christian men don't have to become circumsized in order to conform to the faith.. which is why we don't have slaves or polygamy.. which is why we don't sacrifice lambs in the public square
judeo christianity might be slow but it progresses..which is why christian men don't have to become circumsized in order to conform to the faith.. which is why we don't have slaves or polygamy.. which is why we don't sacrifice lambs in the public square
39
# Congratulations. You are as big an ass as Phelps, just gayer.
40
@34: Given that in the ancient world there was no real concept of fixed sexual orientation and sexual ethics depended largely on your role and status, I agree that it's fairly fruitless to try to derive rules of sexual morality from this source. But I don't agree with your assertions about hospitality and rape. The obligation to protect guests under your roof was central to the hospitality code and thus family honor in those days. To turn the guests over to a mob who meant them ill would have been deeply shameful. How is that a modern interpretation? Sure, the hideous fate in this case was being ass-raped -- considered to rob the victims of their masculinity, apart from other trauma. But can we really just ignore the main themes of betrayal and mob violence and say "oh, it's just about condemning gay sex"?
41
I was referencing post 31.
42
#41
you need the enema nurse again, you will feel better , tell them to heat the liquid a bit hotter this time and add a quart
you need the enema nurse again, you will feel better , tell them to heat the liquid a bit hotter this time and add a quart
43
@25
The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was rampant institutionalized homosexuality and immorality (recall it was impossible to find even 10 inhabitants who were not guilty). They were not burned from the face of the earth for being inhospitable.moron.
Likewise the inhabitants of Caanan at the time of Joshua were so completely infested by sexual immorality and perversion (that extended to children and animals and was institutionalized in the religious worship) that every living thing was to be utterly destroyed.
It seems harsh to our sensibilities but a surgeon who left behind cancer cells would be negligent and doom his patient; when a society is infested totally by moral corruption radical cures are indicated.
A society that seeks to grant 'normal' status to what is patently not so, that indoctrinates young elementary school children that perversion is normal, that turns children and infants over to be raised in households where the abnormal will be presented as normal is reaching a point where it's iniquity is ripe and full.
The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was rampant institutionalized homosexuality and immorality (recall it was impossible to find even 10 inhabitants who were not guilty). They were not burned from the face of the earth for being inhospitable.moron.
Likewise the inhabitants of Caanan at the time of Joshua were so completely infested by sexual immorality and perversion (that extended to children and animals and was institutionalized in the religious worship) that every living thing was to be utterly destroyed.
It seems harsh to our sensibilities but a surgeon who left behind cancer cells would be negligent and doom his patient; when a society is infested totally by moral corruption radical cures are indicated.
A society that seeks to grant 'normal' status to what is patently not so, that indoctrinates young elementary school children that perversion is normal, that turns children and infants over to be raised in households where the abnormal will be presented as normal is reaching a point where it's iniquity is ripe and full.
44
@ 12 and 28
Primitive cultures fashion idols of stone or metal then ascribe godhood to them and bow themselves before them.
Doesn't seem too enlightened to worship what you made with your own hands.
Modern man fashions philosophies of their ideas then throw in a few scriptures to make it look respectable. They caucus and politic to have church doctrine changed to conform to their world view. Don't like what the Church teaches? Find one that makes you comfortable. Or start your own.
Modern man uses ideas and words instead of stone or metal but just as surely fashions something himself then prostrates himself before it.
Golden Calf or 'God of love, truth and compassion'; it's all the same.
Primitive cultures fashion idols of stone or metal then ascribe godhood to them and bow themselves before them.
Doesn't seem too enlightened to worship what you made with your own hands.
Modern man fashions philosophies of their ideas then throw in a few scriptures to make it look respectable. They caucus and politic to have church doctrine changed to conform to their world view. Don't like what the Church teaches? Find one that makes you comfortable. Or start your own.
Modern man uses ideas and words instead of stone or metal but just as surely fashions something himself then prostrates himself before it.
Golden Calf or 'God of love, truth and compassion'; it's all the same.
45
31 Troll
46
31
1) I meant to call you an asshole.
2) The reason I think you are an asshole is because of the way you treated fnarf. He offered a thoughtful comment to the issue, though you wildly misinterpreted it, and you disagreed with, which is fine. But your obvious venom towards him, and by your choice of words, obviously all heterosexuals is as repugnant as the Westboro "so-called" church. You are free to insult fnarf or me or whoever you want. But know this, First, fnarf is a "friend of Slog," one of Slogs first and finest commenters (who I often disagree with) and second, that you, sir, are an asshole. Your mother should be proud.
1) I meant to call you an asshole.
2) The reason I think you are an asshole is because of the way you treated fnarf. He offered a thoughtful comment to the issue, though you wildly misinterpreted it, and you disagreed with, which is fine. But your obvious venom towards him, and by your choice of words, obviously all heterosexuals is as repugnant as the Westboro "so-called" church. You are free to insult fnarf or me or whoever you want. But know this, First, fnarf is a "friend of Slog," one of Slogs first and finest commenters (who I often disagree with) and second, that you, sir, are an asshole. Your mother should be proud.
47
puh-leeze! the bible is the fox news broadcast from 2000 years ago and paul is that era's bill o'reilly. just like today, when the right ing nutjobs couldn't make their case on the facts they just made stuff up. and like the christianamentalists wish they could still get away with doing today (and the islamamentalists do get away with today) they went around killing everybody who didn't agree with them and then made up whatever story they wanted to use to justify it. before you go believing what that rag the bible says i'd go ask a canaanite what their culture was really like.
48
why hasn't anyone just silenced these assholes? seriously, you've got at LEAST 70 people planning to do what, exactly? wave signs at them? yell at them? call them names?
show those assholes what a bashing feels like.
show those assholes what a bashing feels like.
49
@48
They get assaulted all the time. The thing that keeps them going is the money they win from the lawsuits. Without that, they would have disappeared long ago.
They get assaulted all the time. The thing that keeps them going is the money they win from the lawsuits. Without that, they would have disappeared long ago.
50
@40, In the Jewish world it was much more of a behavior issue. People were not supposed to, for whatever reason, to fuck the same sex. Sure the powerful ignored that, they always do, and I am sure people snuck around as well, but thats not the point.
I am also not sure you've even read the story. Job protected the angles, and so was saved, but that was not why the town was destroyed. Its a story, like most of the bible, to threaten people who don't follow the rules.
@44, Right, because humans did not write the Bible. At least modern philosophy is done out in the open and in a democratic way as opposed to priests and holy men writing books to solidify their control.
I am also not sure you've even read the story. Job protected the angles, and so was saved, but that was not why the town was destroyed. Its a story, like most of the bible, to threaten people who don't follow the rules.
@44, Right, because humans did not write the Bible. At least modern philosophy is done out in the open and in a democratic way as opposed to priests and holy men writing books to solidify their control.
51
"puh-leeze! the bible is the fox news broadcast from 2000 years ago and paul is that era's bill o'reilly."
that's perfect! yes, yes, yes, pope-mobile. i read the fucking thing (ok, i skimmed over a pew parts), and it struck me as wildly funny, like a series of python sketches. the product of brutal men with sun-baked brains trying to make sense of the world a long time ago. what's the point of trying to apply any of it to your life? it's not a relevant document anymore, folks. move on.
that's perfect! yes, yes, yes, pope-mobile. i read the fucking thing (ok, i skimmed over a pew parts), and it struck me as wildly funny, like a series of python sketches. the product of brutal men with sun-baked brains trying to make sense of the world a long time ago. what's the point of trying to apply any of it to your life? it's not a relevant document anymore, folks. move on.
52
I gotta be there. Man, I've wanted to let those assholes know what I think of them for a LONG time!
53
THE PLAY ISN'T IN VANCOUVER IT'S IN LONGVIEW
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