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News & ArtsWednesday, December 3, 2008
Homo / Politics Black Democrats Almost as Bad as White Republicans on Gay Issues
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:17 AM
Only 31% of black Democrats in America say homosexual relations are morally acceptable, roughly the same as the 30% of Republicans who agree, while very much different from the 61% of nonblack Democrats who say homosexual relations are morally acceptable....Just 30% of black Democrats say they would agree that marriages between same-sex couples should be recognized by law as valid, compared to 57% of nonblack Democrats. Black Democrats are not quite as conservative on this policy issue as Republicans (among whom just 22% favor legalization of same-sex marriage), but are closer to Republican attitudes than to nonblack Democratic attitudes. And, as noted at the beginning of this story, black Democrats' views on the moral acceptability of homosexual relations are almost identical to those of Republicans, and the attitudes of both blacks and Republicans are significantly different from the attitudes of nonblack Democrats on this issue.
One of the underlying explanations for the divergence between the views of black and nonblack Democrats on these moral issues is religion. Black Democrats are much more religious than nonblack Democrats, and religion is highly related to views on homosexual relations.
4
Interesting poll, but focusing on religion as the root of the problem begs the question--exactly how successful do you think one will be expecting the church to change its dogma? It would be like saying the only way to protect abortion rights is to expect the Catholic Church to change it's stance on the issue. How likely is that anytime soon?
5
The democrats thought stem cell research with human embryos was more "morally acceptable" than heterosexual sex between an unmarried couple. Weird.
I have no problems with either, but that seems like a weird finding to me.
I have no problems with either, but that seems like a weird finding to me.
7
i wonder how democratic hispanics would measure up in this poll. anyone know? if they poll at the same or worse for gay tolerance, why aren't we screaming about them? they make up a larger percentage (and rising) of the american populace.
8
Doesn't look like they controlled for age on this, and I wouldn't be surprised to find there is a larger percentage black people over 50 that identify as democrats as compared to white people. The issue of increased homophobia in the black community and a lack of effective outreach prior to the vote on Prp 8 has already been brought up, but I suspect this poll exagerrates the racial divide by ignoring the generational one. I'd take it with a grain of salt.
11
Wow, only 46% of Republicans and black Democrats, and only 64% of Democrats say that sex between a woman and a man before marriage is "morally acceptable." I wish Gallup would have asked whether interracial marriage, women having jobs, and boys playing with easy bake ovens is morally acceptable. I'm sure the results would be depressingly low.
12
Ultimately we need a lot of old people to die. Age seems to be the common variable when all factors are considered. I think we should not be improving health care for the elderly so that they live longer. Keep them comfortable yes. It is only natural for old people to die. Its bad enough that life expectancy has gone from 71 to 79 years. As former Governor of Colorado Dick Lamm said decades ago: old people have a duty to die. Probably the only useful thing he ever said.
15
#14 I'm tired of people like Dan Savage who keep harping on negatives without ever addressing how the gay community and its supporters are going to reach out to the black community. Basically, his posts are the equivalent of throwing grenades and have no constructive value.
16
#14 I'm tired of people like Dan Savage who keep harping on negatives without ever addressing how the gay community and its supporters are going to reach out to the black community. Basically, his posts are the equivalent of throwing grenades and have no constructive value.
BULLSHIT. This issue between the gay and AA communiities has been simmering for a long time - it was only a matter of time before it erupted into the open, as it has now. Hopefully, something good will eventually come of it, since our communities are now engaging each other, to an extent anyway. I'd rather have engagement than the Republican/Conservative approach, which is to pretend that there is no bigotry of any kind in this country whatesoever, except as it is (supposedly) directed at white, conservative religious people.
BULLSHIT. This issue between the gay and AA communiities has been simmering for a long time - it was only a matter of time before it erupted into the open, as it has now. Hopefully, something good will eventually come of it, since our communities are now engaging each other, to an extent anyway. I'd rather have engagement than the Republican/Conservative approach, which is to pretend that there is no bigotry of any kind in this country whatesoever, except as it is (supposedly) directed at white, conservative religious people.
17
Ask my mom about this..she has gotten into heated debates with people at her church concerning gay marriage.(she's for it) There is definately a connection between the black church and the (lack of) gay acceptance. It is sad but true.
18
Those 31% black Democrats deserve some credit for not seeing such moral issues as the most important issue to judge politicians on.
19
I was beginning to think, when this all began, that black homophobia was like some dirty little secret that many did not want to have exposed by Dan but now I am realizing it is very much out in the open and it quite frankly makes me sick. Sadly, as a longtime activist and past organizer for the Democrats, I would defend the rights of racial minorities, immigrants, racial quotas, etc. to my bitter end but I am not afforded the same sort of respect. Sad, very sad.
20
I will never understood why African-Americans cling to the religion that was forced on them during slavery. The bible they cite when they condemn homosexuality is the same one that provides instructions on how masters should treat their slaves. Wake up people!
22
I am really sick of blacks and all the multitudes of problems they cause wherever they are found in the world - this is a serious post, not sarcastic.
23
22 -- those "problems they cause wherever they are found in the world" are always attributable to centuries old Caucasian-enforced division, manipulation and abuse. This is just as true in the Congo (Belgians) as it is in the Mississippi Delta (duh).
But that's only if I take your premise seriously. Everyone knows it's them Muzzzlims that cause all the fuss.
But that's only if I take your premise seriously. Everyone knows it's them Muzzzlims that cause all the fuss.
24
@20 - To be fair, the ones who abandoned Christianity and took up Islam are often even worse with their anti-gay rhetoric.
25
"are always attributable to centuries old Caucasian-enforced division, manipulation and abuse. This is just as true in the Congo (Belgians) as it is in the Mississippi Delta (duh)."
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Maybe in "Seattle Liberal Fantasyland", not in the real world. African tribes fought wars with each other and enslaved each other for hundreds and possibly thousands of years before the arrival of whites in Africa. Sorry the facts just don't match up with your naive and skewed view of the world.
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Maybe in "Seattle Liberal Fantasyland", not in the real world. African tribes fought wars with each other and enslaved each other for hundreds and possibly thousands of years before the arrival of whites in Africa. Sorry the facts just don't match up with your naive and skewed view of the world.
26
Yeah, good thing all the other races didn't have tribal wars for thousands of years, and also didn't enslave each other all the time. It was just Africans. Like those Spartan and Athenian Niggers.
Oh, and all of those Incan and Mayan jigaboos.
Oh, and all of those Incan and Mayan jigaboos.
27
"Like those Spartan and Athenian Niggers." "Incan and Mayan jigaboos"
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All those cultures fell thousands of years ago... Africans are still killing each other off like crazy.
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"always attributable to centuries old Caucasian-enforced division, manipulation and abuse."
TOTAL BULLSHIT, and I also do not give a flying fuck what anyone's "reason" is for being a stupid violent savage. No matter how "good" the "reason" is, the fact remains that they are still violent and stupid. That's all I really need to know about them.
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All those cultures fell thousands of years ago... Africans are still killing each other off like crazy.
======
"always attributable to centuries old Caucasian-enforced division, manipulation and abuse."
TOTAL BULLSHIT, and I also do not give a flying fuck what anyone's "reason" is for being a stupid violent savage. No matter how "good" the "reason" is, the fact remains that they are still violent and stupid. That's all I really need to know about them.
29
"monotheism makes you stupid."
Oh! Then that explains why polytheistic and animistic Africans behave with such appalling savagery with such predictable regularity.
Oh! Then that explains why polytheistic and animistic Africans behave with such appalling savagery with such predictable regularity.
30
Considering the main argument was that Blacks cause multitudes of problems in the world wherever they are found, harping on what a shithole Africa is doesn't really help the case.
Considering Europe's "persuasive insistence" that Africa remain a shithole for as long as possible, to keep the residents unable to mitigate the rape of their continent's resources, it's rather unremarkable and insignificant that African tribes have warred for thousands of years.
Don't get me wrong, you racist prick, I think Africa is a complete blight on modern society -- our wonderful president-elect notwithstanding -- and might as well be blown off the face of the earth just to save us the trouble of worrying about it. But its overall effect on the world is at worst, negligible. And the people that haven't had any connection with Africa for 300 years hardly deserve to be lumped in with fucking Zimbabwe, Charles Mudede notwithstanding.
Every population of people fought mercilessly within itself for thousands of years, and did other terrible things to each other as well. Just because one or two societies learned how to coordinate this behavior between other peoples to their own benefit, doesn't mean that those societies are awesome and civilized. White people were probably more of a detriment to civilization than they were benefit, despite it's growth around them.
Considering Europe's "persuasive insistence" that Africa remain a shithole for as long as possible, to keep the residents unable to mitigate the rape of their continent's resources, it's rather unremarkable and insignificant that African tribes have warred for thousands of years.
Don't get me wrong, you racist prick, I think Africa is a complete blight on modern society -- our wonderful president-elect notwithstanding -- and might as well be blown off the face of the earth just to save us the trouble of worrying about it. But its overall effect on the world is at worst, negligible. And the people that haven't had any connection with Africa for 300 years hardly deserve to be lumped in with fucking Zimbabwe, Charles Mudede notwithstanding.
Every population of people fought mercilessly within itself for thousands of years, and did other terrible things to each other as well. Just because one or two societies learned how to coordinate this behavior between other peoples to their own benefit, doesn't mean that those societies are awesome and civilized. White people were probably more of a detriment to civilization than they were benefit, despite it's growth around them.
31
"But its overall effect on the world is at worst, negligible. "
------
You must have forgotten about AIDS.
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You must have forgotten about AIDS.
32
Here cum da Preecha Man. Gibs muh dat Ole Time Relijum!!!
Here come da Preecha Man. Gibs muh dat ole time relijum!!!
===========
Incest Verdict Is Bittersweet For Daughter Of Minister
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con…
=============
Denver Reverend Admits To 'Consensual' Church Sex
http://cbs4denver.com/investigates/pasto…
=========================
O PASTOR IN SEX SCANDAL
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09092008/new…
================
Minister Charged with Stealing Thousands (from old lady)
http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=6…
=============
Church's Music Director Charged With Child Rape
http://wjz.com/local/west.baltimore.rapi…
==============
Former pastor's case dealt damaging blow
http://www.kxly.com/Global/story.asp?S=8…
=============
Andre Allen, Pastor of 101-Year Old Second Baptist Church of Wheaton, Ousted After Groping Charges Surface
http://blackpoliticalthought.blogspot.co…
================
Church music director arrested on sex charges
http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=8…
===================
Bishop Beat Down: Thomas Weeks Pleads Guilty To Assaulting Juanita Bynum
http://www.blackvoices.com/blogs/2008/03…
==============
Dublin (VA) pastor accused of molesting child
http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.asp?S=…
==========
Onslow Ross Heads To Federal Prison
http://www.fox24.com/article.asp?pkid=12…
===============
Former Lubbock Pastor Faces 40 Felony Charges
http://www.kcbd.com/Global/story.asp?S=6…
=============
Trial Begins for Visiting Priest Sexual Assault Trial
http://www.kdbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=8…
==========
Minister Indicted for Assault
http://www.kauz.com/news/18783294.html
=============
Pastor Accused Of Stealing Church's Money
http://www.click2houston.com/news/161719…
===========
Local Pastor Arrested for Domestic Violence
http://www.myeyewitnessnews.com/news/loc…
============
Suspect in Central Student's Slaying Was a Pastor, Faced Sex Charges
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/238…
============
T.O. pastor accused of ritual sex
Opening statement at rev's trial tells of pigeon-blood bath, gravesite sex and threats of murder
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2007/1…
More...
Here come da Preecha Man. Gibs muh dat ole time relijum!!!
===========
Incest Verdict Is Bittersweet For Daughter Of Minister
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con…
=============
Denver Reverend Admits To 'Consensual' Church Sex
http://cbs4denver.com/investigates/pasto…
=========================
O PASTOR IN SEX SCANDAL
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09092008/new…
================
Minister Charged with Stealing Thousands (from old lady)
http://www.wnep.com/Global/story.asp?S=6…
=============
Church's Music Director Charged With Child Rape
http://wjz.com/local/west.baltimore.rapi…
==============
Former pastor's case dealt damaging blow
http://www.kxly.com/Global/story.asp?S=8…
=============
Andre Allen, Pastor of 101-Year Old Second Baptist Church of Wheaton, Ousted After Groping Charges Surface
http://blackpoliticalthought.blogspot.co…
================
Church music director arrested on sex charges
http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=8…
===================
Bishop Beat Down: Thomas Weeks Pleads Guilty To Assaulting Juanita Bynum
http://www.blackvoices.com/blogs/2008/03…
==============
Dublin (VA) pastor accused of molesting child
http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.asp?S=…
==========
Onslow Ross Heads To Federal Prison
http://www.fox24.com/article.asp?pkid=12…
===============
Former Lubbock Pastor Faces 40 Felony Charges
http://www.kcbd.com/Global/story.asp?S=6…
=============
Trial Begins for Visiting Priest Sexual Assault Trial
http://www.kdbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=8…
==========
Minister Indicted for Assault
http://www.kauz.com/news/18783294.html
=============
Pastor Accused Of Stealing Church's Money
http://www.click2houston.com/news/161719…
===========
Local Pastor Arrested for Domestic Violence
http://www.myeyewitnessnews.com/news/loc…
============
Suspect in Central Student's Slaying Was a Pastor, Faced Sex Charges
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/238…
============
T.O. pastor accused of ritual sex
Opening statement at rev's trial tells of pigeon-blood bath, gravesite sex and threats of murder
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2007/1…
33
@29
Monotheism isn't the ONLY cause of stupidity. Just a leading cause.
Seriously. Fuck religion. I am so tired of stupid, bigoted religions and their stupid, bigoted followers. When will we, as a species, grow the fuck up?
Grrrrr. . .
Monotheism isn't the ONLY cause of stupidity. Just a leading cause.
Seriously. Fuck religion. I am so tired of stupid, bigoted religions and their stupid, bigoted followers. When will we, as a species, grow the fuck up?
Grrrrr. . .
34
I also forgot about other various plagues when determining a race's worth. Christianity inflicts more damage on society than AIDS does.
I'm sorry I implied that Africa had not had several notable effects on the world by saying that it currently does not affect the world very much. Destroying it would not destroy or stem the spread of AIDS in the rest of the world.
I'm sorry I implied that Africa had not had several notable effects on the world by saying that it currently does not affect the world very much. Destroying it would not destroy or stem the spread of AIDS in the rest of the world.
35
I play a game every time there is a violent crime reported on television before they show the mug shot or court reel....
He'll be black, he'll be black, he'll be black, he'll be black, he'll be black, he'll be black, he'll be black, he'll be black.
I'm never wrong! You should try it sometime. It's actually really fucked up how it turns out that way EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
He'll be black, he'll be black, he'll be black, he'll be black, he'll be black, he'll be black, he'll be black, he'll be black.
I'm never wrong! You should try it sometime. It's actually really fucked up how it turns out that way EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
37
It is such a shame that in this "democratic" country gays are denied fundamental human rights. The religious right, well, we all know who they are. Instead, I believe that the left should be particularly blamed for not standing up ADEQUATELY to Straight Totalitarianism.
GLBT is the only minority whose minority status are been tortured and raped every single day by the diverse straight majority. Other forms of oppression, be it Nazis or Communism, lasted far shorter of a time and receive criticism from "progressive" straights. Yet, these same people (straight homophobic oppressors) would not donate their "progressiveness" to gays and lesbians, as if gays and lesbians deserve the continuation of a thousand-year oppression ignored by a vast majority of straight oppressors.
Straight Totalitarianism in America and in most other countries is cruel and unusual. It is the hallmark of the darkness of humans.
The Iraq War damaged the economy, so straights are out on the streets demonstrating; Africans aren't treated fairly, so straights are out on the streets shouting. Gays and lesbians are screwed because they are so small, so weak, and so un-reproductive; they have no impact on straights' lives so straights don't care about gays. You'd be amazed at how quick straights' "progressiveness" disappears as soon as they realize you don't matter to them.
Down with the fake diversity in this country! Down with the Straight Totalitarianism!
Straights, you should look at your own history. The fact that a thousand-year old oppression receives little to no coverage on "leftist media" says a lot on the necessity to overthrow straight governance. After all this brutality, cruelty, and injustice, gays and lesbians must seek change. Straight dominance in corporations, universities, governments, no-profits, must end and end soon. Don't tell me about diversity unless gays and lesbians are freed.
More...
GLBT is the only minority whose minority status are been tortured and raped every single day by the diverse straight majority. Other forms of oppression, be it Nazis or Communism, lasted far shorter of a time and receive criticism from "progressive" straights. Yet, these same people (straight homophobic oppressors) would not donate their "progressiveness" to gays and lesbians, as if gays and lesbians deserve the continuation of a thousand-year oppression ignored by a vast majority of straight oppressors.
Straight Totalitarianism in America and in most other countries is cruel and unusual. It is the hallmark of the darkness of humans.
The Iraq War damaged the economy, so straights are out on the streets demonstrating; Africans aren't treated fairly, so straights are out on the streets shouting. Gays and lesbians are screwed because they are so small, so weak, and so un-reproductive; they have no impact on straights' lives so straights don't care about gays. You'd be amazed at how quick straights' "progressiveness" disappears as soon as they realize you don't matter to them.
Down with the fake diversity in this country! Down with the Straight Totalitarianism!
Straights, you should look at your own history. The fact that a thousand-year old oppression receives little to no coverage on "leftist media" says a lot on the necessity to overthrow straight governance. After all this brutality, cruelty, and injustice, gays and lesbians must seek change. Straight dominance in corporations, universities, governments, no-profits, must end and end soon. Don't tell me about diversity unless gays and lesbians are freed.
38
Wow. Way to bring out the KKK, Dan. And the way you keep harping on this is not helping your cause, at all.
39
Dan,
Please address the racism expressed on your blog. The sort of racism that is popping up here cannot be tolerated. If it is the sort of thing you wish to endorse then I suppose I have found the wrong blog to read. Up until now I didn't think that was true. I do not come here to debate White Supremacists but it feels like that's what I need to do lately. Someone has got to speak the truth, why aren't you?
I do not believe you are racist for pointing out the discrepancy in black votes but I do think that you need to address the strong religous views behind it. This is what will allow us to move the conversation forward. As I've said before Blacks view marriage as a religious issue not a civil rights issue and we need to talk about decoupling the two, not about race - it is not skin color that is driving the votes for 8. It is religion.
Please address the racism expressed on your blog. The sort of racism that is popping up here cannot be tolerated. If it is the sort of thing you wish to endorse then I suppose I have found the wrong blog to read. Up until now I didn't think that was true. I do not come here to debate White Supremacists but it feels like that's what I need to do lately. Someone has got to speak the truth, why aren't you?
I do not believe you are racist for pointing out the discrepancy in black votes but I do think that you need to address the strong religous views behind it. This is what will allow us to move the conversation forward. As I've said before Blacks view marriage as a religious issue not a civil rights issue and we need to talk about decoupling the two, not about race - it is not skin color that is driving the votes for 8. It is religion.
40
And for the record:
European colonialism is responsible for many of Africa's problems.
There is plenty of unrest around the world that does not involve Black people (see the Middle East, and parts of the former USSR).
And Whites commit violent crimes too - cut the genitals off and ate it? probably a White guy.
European colonialism is responsible for many of Africa's problems.
There is plenty of unrest around the world that does not involve Black people (see the Middle East, and parts of the former USSR).
And Whites commit violent crimes too - cut the genitals off and ate it? probably a White guy.
41
Dan doesn't need to acknowledge the idiot racists on this blog at all, let alone admonish them. The ones that aren't just trolls aren't going to be swayed by Dan or anyone else, and anyone who thinks that he's actually a white supremacist has zero reading comprehension.
If Dan stops talking about this, other people won't. If other people do stop, then everybody can go back to pretending that the problem doesn't exist like we've done for the past 15 years. Like it or not, this sort of process needs people to talk incessantly about it just as much as it needs the people who actually do something about it. If you want people to stop talking about it, then you go out and do something about it.
If Dan stops talking about this, other people won't. If other people do stop, then everybody can go back to pretending that the problem doesn't exist like we've done for the past 15 years. Like it or not, this sort of process needs people to talk incessantly about it just as much as it needs the people who actually do something about it. If you want people to stop talking about it, then you go out and do something about it.
42
White folks and their never-ending quest create false equivalences.
Um, guys: Even if every black person in Cali had voted correctly, it still would have passed.
Um, guys: Even if every black person in Cali had voted correctly, it still would have passed.
43
The title from an excellent, recently published book states it so eloquently....."Religion POISONS EVERYTHING."
44
@42 This is no longer about blaming blacks for the passage of Prop 8 or somehow mathematically proving that if they'd voted another way it would have been different. It never really ought to have been that in the first place. They make up such a small portion, it makes no sense.
But it is important to recognize the statistically significant data that says that there is a problem with homophobia in the black community. That was the real shocking thing. And it is important to understand the cause of the social conservatism, whether it be age or religion. I do wish Dan would emphasize that point more, but it's not as if pointing out this homophobia is racist.
And honestly, blaming homophobia on a lack of gay outreach to POC is like blaming racism on a lack of black outreach to white people. It's victim blaming, and anyone who can't see the simple fact that there is more to this story than a failed PR campaign is blindly apologist or prejudiced.
But it is important to recognize the statistically significant data that says that there is a problem with homophobia in the black community. That was the real shocking thing. And it is important to understand the cause of the social conservatism, whether it be age or religion. I do wish Dan would emphasize that point more, but it's not as if pointing out this homophobia is racist.
And honestly, blaming homophobia on a lack of gay outreach to POC is like blaming racism on a lack of black outreach to white people. It's victim blaming, and anyone who can't see the simple fact that there is more to this story than a failed PR campaign is blindly apologist or prejudiced.
45
Does anyone else think it's kind of a strange coincidence that both Blacks and Republicans have a lot of DL Gays in their midsts?
Would it help to have more outreach by gay political group to the black community? Yes. Would it help to have more leaders of color in gay political groups? Yes. But, by far, the most important factor to being tollerant to LGBT causes is knowing someone personally who is LGBT. And that, I lay directly at the feet of the cowards in the black and Republican communities who are afraid someone might call them a name for being gay.
Would it help to have more outreach by gay political group to the black community? Yes. Would it help to have more leaders of color in gay political groups? Yes. But, by far, the most important factor to being tollerant to LGBT causes is knowing someone personally who is LGBT. And that, I lay directly at the feet of the cowards in the black and Republican communities who are afraid someone might call them a name for being gay.
46
@37. I understand your frustration. And yes, you are right that for centuries straights didn't give a shit about homosexuals, and the bigotry and violence they faced.
But this is not the case anymore. There are thousands of progressive straight people who fight for gay rights every day: PFLAG, Unitarian Universalists, the Green Party, the Socialist Party, Gay/Straight Alliance, the American Library Association, AFFIRM Network, and Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network.
http://www.glsen.org/cgi-bin/iowa/all/bo…
My list isn't comprehensive, and I don't say all of this to contradict you or demean your completely justifiable anger. I just want to tell you it's not as bad as it was just 10 years ago. Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals, and Transgendered people have a large, active ally in progressive straights. They aren't as active as we are, true. And they aren't as organized. But they're there.
@42. For the hundredth time, you are missing the point entirely. Entirely.
But this is not the case anymore. There are thousands of progressive straight people who fight for gay rights every day: PFLAG, Unitarian Universalists, the Green Party, the Socialist Party, Gay/Straight Alliance, the American Library Association, AFFIRM Network, and Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network.
http://www.glsen.org/cgi-bin/iowa/all/bo…
My list isn't comprehensive, and I don't say all of this to contradict you or demean your completely justifiable anger. I just want to tell you it's not as bad as it was just 10 years ago. Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals, and Transgendered people have a large, active ally in progressive straights. They aren't as active as we are, true. And they aren't as organized. But they're there.
@42. For the hundredth time, you are missing the point entirely. Entirely.
47
@45. Something I've heard very often since the election is that most black people--whether men or women--identify as "black" first. Everything else is secondary. So black, gay men are, first, BLACK men, then gay. Black lesbians are, first, BLACK women, then lesbian. And a large, important aspect of being part of a black community is Sunday worship, just like it is in the Italian community and the Irish community, etc.
So African Americans identity first with their black community, then, perhaps the gay community. Someone calling them a "name" will separate them from the most important aspect of their identity. This is why black gays and lesbians have already forgiven those in their community who voted for Prop 8. This is why they're not as angry (for the most part).
Most gays I know--especially activist gays--identity first as a gay person. I think Alison Bechdel talked about being a "full-time lesbian" after she came out. Everything about her life was connected with her identity as a gay woman: her friends, her job, her hobbies, where she ate, where she worked out.
Same with black people. Their identity is HUGELY connected with their community. So, they're gonna vote that way. And I'm not excusing any of this. Just thinking out loud.
As far as gay republicans go, I'll bet we could say the same about them. They want to be a part of the club. They want to be a Heather.
So African Americans identity first with their black community, then, perhaps the gay community. Someone calling them a "name" will separate them from the most important aspect of their identity. This is why black gays and lesbians have already forgiven those in their community who voted for Prop 8. This is why they're not as angry (for the most part).
Most gays I know--especially activist gays--identity first as a gay person. I think Alison Bechdel talked about being a "full-time lesbian" after she came out. Everything about her life was connected with her identity as a gay woman: her friends, her job, her hobbies, where she ate, where she worked out.
Same with black people. Their identity is HUGELY connected with their community. So, they're gonna vote that way. And I'm not excusing any of this. Just thinking out loud.
As far as gay republicans go, I'll bet we could say the same about them. They want to be a part of the club. They want to be a Heather.
48
Breathe, Dan. Breathe.
You've got to be smart in handling this, because assigning motives for behavior to a group gets a bit tricky. Actually, I think you've hit on something with the HIV rate and homophobia, but unlike old people, black people aren't just going to die off. You might begin to lead the way for a bit of understanding and the HIV disparity might even be part of the solution.
Just a word of advice from a member of the most homophobic group. You, by the way and in my opinion, belong to the most racist group, but I'd have a difficult time labeling you as such.
You've got to be smart in handling this, because assigning motives for behavior to a group gets a bit tricky. Actually, I think you've hit on something with the HIV rate and homophobia, but unlike old people, black people aren't just going to die off. You might begin to lead the way for a bit of understanding and the HIV disparity might even be part of the solution.
Just a word of advice from a member of the most homophobic group. You, by the way and in my opinion, belong to the most racist group, but I'd have a difficult time labeling you as such.
49
I remember the days when a great number of people, right or left, thought gay people should be jailed, let alone have any claim to equal justice. As long as we continue to dialog with our opponents and ask the questions that need to be asked, we can push our country forward. It's just human nature. It's not D. or R., black or white, right or left. It's how the system works. It's how people learn. Religion has been used to quash dialog and stir hate for a very long time. That's why it has been responsible for so much violence for so long and that's why our founding fathers wrote seperation of church and state into our constitution.
50
46: Yeah, great, but imagine the hue and cry that would go up if countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia made "being black" a crime punishable by being tortured to death. Because that's how they treat gays, and no one seems to care.
51
@50. You're right. And I'm not trying to put an overly-pretty picture on this. We have strong support among our straight allies, but there is far too much apathy among straights. And then there are the hostile ones. I think my point is that more and more, as years go by, the strong support is quickly gaining ground on the apathy, and especially the hostility.
Your point about Saudi Arabia and Iran is a very good one, and (he may come in and tell me I'm full of shit), but I think this is what was mostly behind Dan's support for the Iraq war. Straights forget that this goes on. Leftist progressives who love, love, LOVE Palestine and so harshly criticize Israel conveniently forget that being gay in Israel isn't a virtual death sentence the way it is in Palestine.
In the 90s, during the genocide in Rwanda, I often wondered if we'd have gotten involved if it was white people killing blacks, instead of blacks killing other blacks.
Americans have some fucked up rules on what we "should" get outraged about.
Your point about Saudi Arabia and Iran is a very good one, and (he may come in and tell me I'm full of shit), but I think this is what was mostly behind Dan's support for the Iraq war. Straights forget that this goes on. Leftist progressives who love, love, LOVE Palestine and so harshly criticize Israel conveniently forget that being gay in Israel isn't a virtual death sentence the way it is in Palestine.
In the 90s, during the genocide in Rwanda, I often wondered if we'd have gotten involved if it was white people killing blacks, instead of blacks killing other blacks.
Americans have some fucked up rules on what we "should" get outraged about.
52
Dan Savage has a well-documented animosity towards people with dark skin.
NEVER forget that this is the man who loudly advocated for the invasion of Iraq, which has left hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead.
NEVER forget that this is the man who loudly advocated for the invasion of Iraq, which has left hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead.
53
The importance of the Black Church in the Black Community cannot be ignored nor disrespected. The Black Church, is the ONLY institution in the history of the United States, that from its conception:
protected, incubated, supported
BLACK HUMANITY.
There is not one other institution in the history of this country that has done that.
When the official position of this country was that Black folks were 3/5ths, there were church meetings amongst the slaves, telling them something different.
When Jim Crow ruled this land with an iron fist, there was the Black Church, telling people that there was another way.
When you had folks toiling in the fields, working in White folks houses, being demeaned everyday from sunup to sundown, on Sunday, there was a community that told you - you were worth something.
Good luck trying to insult the Black Church and thinking that's the way to bridge the gap.
Gay marriage is seen as a RELIGIOUS issue. Not one of Civil Rights.
Keep on thinking that attacking Religious folks is the way to go.
protected, incubated, supported
BLACK HUMANITY.
There is not one other institution in the history of this country that has done that.
When the official position of this country was that Black folks were 3/5ths, there were church meetings amongst the slaves, telling them something different.
When Jim Crow ruled this land with an iron fist, there was the Black Church, telling people that there was another way.
When you had folks toiling in the fields, working in White folks houses, being demeaned everyday from sunup to sundown, on Sunday, there was a community that told you - you were worth something.
Good luck trying to insult the Black Church and thinking that's the way to bridge the gap.
Gay marriage is seen as a RELIGIOUS issue. Not one of Civil Rights.
Keep on thinking that attacking Religious folks is the way to go.
54
Rikyrah, that's like saying the Catholic church should be off limits because it was the only institution that help the Irish maintain a sense of themselves under British protestant rule, or that the Orthodox church should only be criticized with caution because so many Greeks still feel that their culture/nationality are bound up with it.
If you treat clergy with kid gloves, they'll start to act crazy, just like anybody else. All you'll end up with is the black version of the Borgias or Rasputin. Nobody should be above the law; the laws should be the same for everybody.
And the sooner a community develops institutions outside religion, the better. Only small tribes should be ruled by their witchdoctors.
If you treat clergy with kid gloves, they'll start to act crazy, just like anybody else. All you'll end up with is the black version of the Borgias or Rasputin. Nobody should be above the law; the laws should be the same for everybody.
And the sooner a community develops institutions outside religion, the better. Only small tribes should be ruled by their witchdoctors.
55
One thing the defeat of prop 8 has done, is enlighten me as to the significant number of racist queens there are out here, and for that I will be eternally grateful. I think many gay people simply won't ever get it, comparing sexuality and race issues, is simply silly. How many of you queens on here ever heard of a closet black person? Your identities are based upon certain sexual urges, usually beginning at or around puberty, my racial identity was evident from the moment I came out of my mother's womb, actually even before that, because my mother's ethnicity determined mine. You can, and many prominent among you have hidden your sexual preference for expedience. You have never been denied the right to vote, you have never been enslaved and on and on.
The problem with the gay community is that it arrogantly assumed that its struggle for gay rights automatically meant it would find some sort of natural solidarity with blacks because of their struggles for racial justice. Even though most gay people, especially the kind found in trendy parts of L.A. and S.F., would otherwise have no use for black people at all. As someone who believes in gay rights and equal justice for all, I must say that it will be an extremely long time (considering the garish racism displayed here and across the board; by gay men in particular) that I will lose any sleep worrying about white elitist gays and their inability to marry.
As for the people in Africa, believe me they have bigger problems to worry about, problems way more important that Adam not being able to marry Steve. This disgusting display of gay-racism will only calcify opinions in the black community. I have to admit, I'm feeling a little homophobia taking hold over me, even as I type this response. That's all I have to say to you bunch of racist homosexuals on this sight.
Adieu,
k in MA
More...
The problem with the gay community is that it arrogantly assumed that its struggle for gay rights automatically meant it would find some sort of natural solidarity with blacks because of their struggles for racial justice. Even though most gay people, especially the kind found in trendy parts of L.A. and S.F., would otherwise have no use for black people at all. As someone who believes in gay rights and equal justice for all, I must say that it will be an extremely long time (considering the garish racism displayed here and across the board; by gay men in particular) that I will lose any sleep worrying about white elitist gays and their inability to marry.
As for the people in Africa, believe me they have bigger problems to worry about, problems way more important that Adam not being able to marry Steve. This disgusting display of gay-racism will only calcify opinions in the black community. I have to admit, I'm feeling a little homophobia taking hold over me, even as I type this response. That's all I have to say to you bunch of racist homosexuals on this sight.
Adieu,
k in MA
56
#37
You hit the nail on the head. "Straight dominance" must end. That is the only way we are going to be able to win long-term. The LGBT must start producing the next generation of political, academic, scientific, artistic, and business leaders. We are starting to do somewhat well in areas of politics, but that's about it. We've got to plan long-term - for example, by helping the education of gay youth.
#46
Straight alliances are nice, but we shouldn't rely upon them. We should be able to pull our own weight. Allies should be considered an added bonus. Remember that before Hitler took over, Berlin used to be quite liberal towards gays. But that turned 180 degrees quickly under Hitler's spell - would that have happened if there were many straight allies standing for the rights of gays? The point is, while in these fairly easy times we can seek the help of straight allies, when the chips are down its just us who will be ready to take care of each other.
You hit the nail on the head. "Straight dominance" must end. That is the only way we are going to be able to win long-term. The LGBT must start producing the next generation of political, academic, scientific, artistic, and business leaders. We are starting to do somewhat well in areas of politics, but that's about it. We've got to plan long-term - for example, by helping the education of gay youth.
#46
Straight alliances are nice, but we shouldn't rely upon them. We should be able to pull our own weight. Allies should be considered an added bonus. Remember that before Hitler took over, Berlin used to be quite liberal towards gays. But that turned 180 degrees quickly under Hitler's spell - would that have happened if there were many straight allies standing for the rights of gays? The point is, while in these fairly easy times we can seek the help of straight allies, when the chips are down its just us who will be ready to take care of each other.
57
Chris in Tampa -
When whites are still the MAJORITY, meaning there are more of them than ANY other group - and there is still a high enough percentage of them that don't support the gay marriage initiatives, don't you think that trying to change the minds of 60% of 12% is less important than changing the mind of whatever percentage of the majority race?
And as far as Dan and his never ending posts on where African-Americans stand on this is - well, it's like smoking to cure cancer. Might feel good for a minute, but it only makes things worse.
The race baiting, and blatant racist remarks that have been posted in the comments since the November election only go to show that racism is as alive and well in the gay and atheist communities as it is in others.
Someone doesn't agree with you, so instead of ringing the doorbell and having a civil conversation about it, you throw a brick through their front window, and people standing behind you (whether you invited them or not) start chanting racist remark and vicious name calling.
What are the chances that the person inside wants to have any dialogue with you on the issue now? What are the chances that instead of changing hearts and minds, you harden them against you?
Keep it up, and you'll turn those who support you into people who hate you and want to hurt you. And by hurt I mean continue to vote against initiatives that assist you, and voting for those that hurt you.
I, for one, will never again read any of Dan's posts on this issue, or click on the comments about them. A line has been drawn now, that didn't exist for me before.
When whites are still the MAJORITY, meaning there are more of them than ANY other group - and there is still a high enough percentage of them that don't support the gay marriage initiatives, don't you think that trying to change the minds of 60% of 12% is less important than changing the mind of whatever percentage of the majority race?
And as far as Dan and his never ending posts on where African-Americans stand on this is - well, it's like smoking to cure cancer. Might feel good for a minute, but it only makes things worse.
The race baiting, and blatant racist remarks that have been posted in the comments since the November election only go to show that racism is as alive and well in the gay and atheist communities as it is in others.
Someone doesn't agree with you, so instead of ringing the doorbell and having a civil conversation about it, you throw a brick through their front window, and people standing behind you (whether you invited them or not) start chanting racist remark and vicious name calling.
What are the chances that the person inside wants to have any dialogue with you on the issue now? What are the chances that instead of changing hearts and minds, you harden them against you?
Keep it up, and you'll turn those who support you into people who hate you and want to hurt you. And by hurt I mean continue to vote against initiatives that assist you, and voting for those that hurt you.
I, for one, will never again read any of Dan's posts on this issue, or click on the comments about them. A line has been drawn now, that didn't exist for me before.
59
"Tonight on Action News, gay blogger Dan Savage explains why he's decided to abandon his blog and devote all of his energy to killing as many members of the black electorate as he possibly can."
"I'm deeply offended that my glorious white presence on this plant has to be shared with those rumbling, brick-breaking darkies" Mr. Savage says in statements recorded earlier.
"Those damned, dirty apes! They won't let me marry! How dare those monkey's! How dare they!"
"I'm deeply offended that my glorious white presence on this plant has to be shared with those rumbling, brick-breaking darkies" Mr. Savage says in statements recorded earlier.
"Those damned, dirty apes! They won't let me marry! How dare those monkey's! How dare they!"
61
"Also on Action News, on tonight's 'Where's the Outrage' segment, we interview website comment-poster Jade and ask why being a grammar nazi is more important than ignoring the racist bomb-throwing of blogger Dan Savage."
64
And how well did Gallup do in poll predictions? I didn't realize Dan Savage was such an asshole.
I came to this post via Andrew Sulllivan's blog. (Remember him, Mr. MuscleGlutes on aol looking for dick, preaching against Bill Clinton). He also seems rather gleeful in reporting this obviously flawed poll.
I guess Andrew prefers begging for Black Dick up in Ptown, but likes to slam black people in public. How bout you Dan? You Scumbag Asswipe. Are you teaching your kid to hate black people to?
I came to this post via Andrew Sulllivan's blog. (Remember him, Mr. MuscleGlutes on aol looking for dick, preaching against Bill Clinton). He also seems rather gleeful in reporting this obviously flawed poll.
I guess Andrew prefers begging for Black Dick up in Ptown, but likes to slam black people in public. How bout you Dan? You Scumbag Asswipe. Are you teaching your kid to hate black people to?
66
Honestly, since we all know that it's religious democrats that are causing the correlation, could we please start framing this as "only X% of religious democrats say that homosexual relations are morally acceptable." The fact that more blacks than whites are religious is tertiary and not causal. So why does the headline read "black people disapprove of homosexuality?" It's provocative in a non-constructive way, and framed in a way that encourages people to draw incorrect assumptions. This poorly represented data is both scientifically AND ethically frustrating!!!
67
@ 55
"You have never been denied the right to vote, you have never been enslaved and on and on. "
Actually, Kayla, neither have you. What the AA community is dealing with today are the aftershocks of slavery - the slaves themselves are dead, and the slaveowners are dead. I'm not saying those aftershocks aren't huge problems themselves, or that your points don't have any merit - but you drop the ball when you ham it up the way you are.
"How many of you queens on here ever heard of a closet black person?"
Yes, yes, it's very true that black people have never had the option of being in the closet. But have you ever heard of a black person being born into a family of white supremacists? Of course not. Yet gay kids are born into families that despise them all the time. Each group has their particular burdens to bear that are unique to them. I guess everyone feels they've suffered more, and that they should somehow get some pathos credit passed onto them from their less-fortunate predecessors. I'm not really sure how that's relevant as to the question of what's the right vs. wrong way to treat someone. No one "earns" rights by pain. We earn them by being human.
"I have to admit, I'm feeling a little homophobia taking hold over me, even as I type this response."
Yes, I can tell. I can't say I'm surprised, because some of the shit people are saying on here is completely toxic. I always thought *I* was king toxic, but I hand my crown to...well, all of you.
"You have never been denied the right to vote, you have never been enslaved and on and on. "
Actually, Kayla, neither have you. What the AA community is dealing with today are the aftershocks of slavery - the slaves themselves are dead, and the slaveowners are dead. I'm not saying those aftershocks aren't huge problems themselves, or that your points don't have any merit - but you drop the ball when you ham it up the way you are.
"How many of you queens on here ever heard of a closet black person?"
Yes, yes, it's very true that black people have never had the option of being in the closet. But have you ever heard of a black person being born into a family of white supremacists? Of course not. Yet gay kids are born into families that despise them all the time. Each group has their particular burdens to bear that are unique to them. I guess everyone feels they've suffered more, and that they should somehow get some pathos credit passed onto them from their less-fortunate predecessors. I'm not really sure how that's relevant as to the question of what's the right vs. wrong way to treat someone. No one "earns" rights by pain. We earn them by being human.
"I have to admit, I'm feeling a little homophobia taking hold over me, even as I type this response."
Yes, I can tell. I can't say I'm surprised, because some of the shit people are saying on here is completely toxic. I always thought *I* was king toxic, but I hand my crown to...well, all of you.
68
Oh, and by the way, it's worth stating why black people are more religious than white people in the first place. It's because their communities have been so marginalized as to make the traditional values and community bonding practiced through the church a safe haven for black families. So it's not like black people are just more ignorant than white people, as demonstrated by their religiousness and their gay-hating. It's that black communities, largely because of socioeconomic oppression, are more susceptible to religion and religion, for all its salvation, promotes gay hating. So seriously, this shit is ridiculous. I would say it's also irresponsible of you Dan, but I highly doubt that anyone is taking you seriously. The MSM, however, is a different story.
69
Oh hi look I'm a Canadian so I don't really want to get involved in this family argument. Because you guys are heavily armed eh? But I just want to point out.... hey you don't shoot !!! ....that what you are really looking at really correlates more with income and education than race. Many Blacks and Hispanics are poor and uneducated and the churches play a bigger roles in their lives because of that. But many wealthier and more educated blacks voted against Prop 8. So yes homophobia when it comes from other oppressed groups really is depressing.
And the generational thing should solve it in the end I hope. But in the meantime, fighting poverty, and getting more poor kids into universities, and reaching out and understanding each other is the only way to go...
And the generational thing should solve it in the end I hope. But in the meantime, fighting poverty, and getting more poor kids into universities, and reaching out and understanding each other is the only way to go...
70
I can't believe I actually ever thought you were a smart person and role model of mine.
thanks for the random stats with no context in an effort not to confront your racism. I guess all those percentages some web sites list about us gay people in order to prove our immorality is also perfectly fine.
It's amazing to see all sense of analysis and complexity leave somebody now that he's been whipped into a frenzy over an institution that, now that it's "gone" from California, hasn't even affected the protections given to gay couples there.
time to start owning up to the fact that our movement is no longer about rights - it's about trying to combat homophobia. That's your actual obsession: acceptance.
thanks for the random stats with no context in an effort not to confront your racism. I guess all those percentages some web sites list about us gay people in order to prove our immorality is also perfectly fine.
It's amazing to see all sense of analysis and complexity leave somebody now that he's been whipped into a frenzy over an institution that, now that it's "gone" from California, hasn't even affected the protections given to gay couples there.
time to start owning up to the fact that our movement is no longer about rights - it's about trying to combat homophobia. That's your actual obsession: acceptance.
71
You may have a point, as far as it goes, about how party affiliation means different things to different racial groups. The Gallup poll does not, however, support your claims that black Americans are more homophobic than white Americans. Here's why.
African Americans, Latinos, and Native Americans are disproportionately identified with the Democratic party. White and Asian Americans are about evenly split in their party affiliations or lack thereof (Democratic/Republican/Independent). The Gallup poll doesn't account for that.
Taking these numbers as a guide, 75% of blacks and somewhere between 31% and 38% of non-blacks identify as Democrats. (Non-blacks identify as Democrats at a higher rate than whites do -- 31% -- but at a lower rate than overall Democratic identification -- 38% -- since blacks are the most disproportionately Democratic group.)
31% of the 75% of blacks who identify as Democrats support gay marriage: 23.25% of all blacks.
61% of the 31-38% of non-blacks who identify as Democrats support gay marriage: 18.91-23.18% of non-blacks.
Thus, it looks as if blacks and non-blacks support gay marriage in roughly equal numbers.
All the Gallup poll tells you is that socially conservative blacks are more willing than other social conservatives to vote with their class and other interests. They identify with and support Democratic politicians even though they disagree on moral issues at a much higher rate than non-black voters.
***
Also, Dan, seriously, listen to #38 and #39 and respond to the racism in these comment threads. This is truly despicable. I know that you don't share their views, but it's obvious to me that they think you do.
More...
African Americans, Latinos, and Native Americans are disproportionately identified with the Democratic party. White and Asian Americans are about evenly split in their party affiliations or lack thereof (Democratic/Republican/Independent). The Gallup poll doesn't account for that.
Taking these numbers as a guide, 75% of blacks and somewhere between 31% and 38% of non-blacks identify as Democrats. (Non-blacks identify as Democrats at a higher rate than whites do -- 31% -- but at a lower rate than overall Democratic identification -- 38% -- since blacks are the most disproportionately Democratic group.)
31% of the 75% of blacks who identify as Democrats support gay marriage: 23.25% of all blacks.
61% of the 31-38% of non-blacks who identify as Democrats support gay marriage: 18.91-23.18% of non-blacks.
Thus, it looks as if blacks and non-blacks support gay marriage in roughly equal numbers.
All the Gallup poll tells you is that socially conservative blacks are more willing than other social conservatives to vote with their class and other interests. They identify with and support Democratic politicians even though they disagree on moral issues at a much higher rate than non-black voters.
***
Also, Dan, seriously, listen to #38 and #39 and respond to the racism in these comment threads. This is truly despicable. I know that you don't share their views, but it's obvious to me that they think you do.
72
I see the racism of white gays is being openly displayed - and its no surprise! Black gays have always known this about you! Why do you think we have black gay pride days of our own, independent of yours? Some of you can cry about "down low" blacks who keep their sexuality secret - well, that's better than being a down low racist who keeps his feelings secret in public but lets them out in cyberspace where he can be anonymous! It was CHURCH people who voted for Proposition 8, REGARDLESS of race - and the CATHOLIC CHURCH was the driving force behind the support for it! They got other churches to cooperate with them, including the racist Mormon polygamy church!
"Outreach" to the black community indeed - considering the racist reaction to proposition 8, I dont think that will work out too well! And considering all the racist comments ive seen on here about black people and about Africa in general - well, that tells me everything i need to know!
"Outreach" to the black community indeed - considering the racist reaction to proposition 8, I dont think that will work out too well! And considering all the racist comments ive seen on here about black people and about Africa in general - well, that tells me everything i need to know!
73
I hear you, ray. And Dan is responsible for (a) provoking the racists, (b) letting their posts stand without comment, and (c) failing to exhibit leadership qualities.
74
Everyone, please read carefully comment number 71. It's time we injected some rationality up in this mofo.
75
I also should have pointed out that the poll doesn't tell us anything about the racial breakdown of Repubican support for gay marriage (e.g., whether more non-black Republicans support gay marriage than black Republicans), but if the numbers are roughly equal and 41% of whites are Republican and 7% of blacks are Republican . . . well, you do the math. White Republicans would have to be six times more likely than black Republicans to support gay marriage in order to add equivalent percentages of white and black homophobes to our little tally. Not likely.
76
Thanks, Stephanie (@71), for putting the data into context.
And thanks, Dan (once again), for putting homophobia into its proper context: It is the doing of black people—and only their doing (the fuckers). So we win if we eliminate the homophobia there because its existence among the other races is insignificant and, apparently, irrelevant. Keep up the good work.
And thanks, Dan (once again), for putting homophobia into its proper context: It is the doing of black people—and only their doing (the fuckers). So we win if we eliminate the homophobia there because its existence among the other races is insignificant and, apparently, irrelevant. Keep up the good work.
77
Way to go Dan Savage - maybe with all the hatred on this blog, we can send blacks like Deval Patrick, David Patterson, the Black Congressional Caucus and Barack Obama where they belong......oops, I forgot, they actually are trying to help us as we shoot ourselves in the foot. You won't like what I am about to say, but, African Americans have rights we [and I am AA and gay], don't have! But somehow, we are going to punish them for singlehandedly causing all the homophobia we have endured. Let's start with the black homosexuals [oh I'm sorry, now that makes us homophobes]. When will the scapegoating stop? Did it ever occur to anyone on these blogs that maybe, the organized conservatives are trying to drive wedges between us AND THEY ARE SUCCEEDING! How stupid can we be to not see this? So, just how long are we going to keep defeating our own purpose? Until all 50 states have marriage bans? Why don't people on these blogs start offering realistic insight instead of this hate-filled crap? Oh, again, I'm sorry [must be my blackness] but you all suddenly care soooo much about the homophobia I endure as a black gay man. Wow, I feel soooo much better [not]. Stop wallowing in self pity and get to thinking of ways to succeed at gaining rights for gays and lesbians. And give up on Dan cause, as I learned years ago when he was not receptive to my struggle as an African American gay man, Dan doesn't have a clue [but suddening he cares about my struggle - at least the the part that deals with the black community].
78
77:" Did it ever occur to anyone on these blogs that maybe, the organized conservatives are trying to drive wedges between us AND THEY ARE SUCCEEDING! How stupid can we be to not see this?"
Now that's just CRAZY TALK, Richard!
Why would conservatives want to see two pillars of the Democratic thugocracy at each other's throats?
Why?!
The Big Tent can hold everyone!
Racist spoiled smart ass white Queers are welcome.
Homophobic brooding uneducated Blacks, come on down!
Gays have a friend in the White House again... don't they?
(Did I see anyone chanting:
"we're here! we're queer!
we're going to the White House!!"
this time like happened election night 1992??)
Blacks surely are euphoric to have the first Black President?
(even if he is actually just caramel colored)
Obama will make every one happy, won't he?
What was it he was promising Gays....
now what was it again??
Dan- don't let Richard scare you!
Keep on the case till you get to the bottom of the
"who done the gays dirty on Prop 8" mystery.
Follow those leads where ever they take you!
Now that's just CRAZY TALK, Richard!
Why would conservatives want to see two pillars of the Democratic thugocracy at each other's throats?
Why?!
The Big Tent can hold everyone!
Racist spoiled smart ass white Queers are welcome.
Homophobic brooding uneducated Blacks, come on down!
Gays have a friend in the White House again... don't they?
(Did I see anyone chanting:
"we're here! we're queer!
we're going to the White House!!"
this time like happened election night 1992??)
Blacks surely are euphoric to have the first Black President?
(even if he is actually just caramel colored)
Obama will make every one happy, won't he?
What was it he was promising Gays....
now what was it again??
Dan- don't let Richard scare you!
Keep on the case till you get to the bottom of the
"who done the gays dirty on Prop 8" mystery.
Follow those leads where ever they take you!
79
The importance of the Black Church in the Black Community cannot be ignored nor disrespected
Disrespeected. Let's talk about the word. It is disrespectful to vote to deprive people of their civil rights. It is disrespectful to ridicule the Holocaust or praise Hitler. It is disrespectful to be an apologist for hate crimes (such as burning down Korean businesses). It is disrespectful to falsely accuse people of rape as the two very prominent black church and community leaders, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have. It's disrespectful to call our President elect the N word. The black church and community have been very, very generous in ignoring disrespect given by those in the community to people in other communities.
When the black community and church starts giving the same respect it demands I will listen. Until then I will roll my eyes. This is just the same old same old- black people need to be given a lot more respect then they give or (at times) rightfully have earned.
Disrespeected. Let's talk about the word. It is disrespectful to vote to deprive people of their civil rights. It is disrespectful to ridicule the Holocaust or praise Hitler. It is disrespectful to be an apologist for hate crimes (such as burning down Korean businesses). It is disrespectful to falsely accuse people of rape as the two very prominent black church and community leaders, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have. It's disrespectful to call our President elect the N word. The black church and community have been very, very generous in ignoring disrespect given by those in the community to people in other communities.
When the black community and church starts giving the same respect it demands I will listen. Until then I will roll my eyes. This is just the same old same old- black people need to be given a lot more respect then they give or (at times) rightfully have earned.
80
@77. The goal: expanding the circle of rights and citizenship and recognition. The team: Democrats. Who drops the ball? And who are you yelling at?
@39. It isn't just 'religion'--it is a certain kind of religion. There are religious people for gay rights, usually in mainline and progressive catholic churches as well as reform synagogues, and there are religious people against gay rights, usually in evangelical and fundamentalist churches and orthodox synagogues. To say it is 'religion' is not at all helpful. It is the traditional Black Church and some other urban types of sects and denominations that support anti-gay sentiments.
And, Dan, you gotta check out Michele Wallace's BLACK MACHO AND THE MYTH OF THE SUPERWOMAN. A young black feminist wrote a book about gender politics in the black community during civil rights/black power days. She told the truth. She was harangued for it, eventually forced to apologize. She peeled back the curtain and let people see how fucked up black men are about their masculinity due to racial oppression in the first part, BLACK MACHO. It truly is helpful for understanding the defensiveness of blacks on gender and sexual issues. (Patricia Hill Collins' recent book is helpful, too.) I've actually been spending some time thinking about how some messaging could tap into the "I am a man" frame from decades past. Gay men and black men are often both denied their masculinity. I'm guessing, however, that straight and DL black men won't be receptive to this message....either.
Which raises the question: when are black gays and lesbians going to stop telling us we're racist and start telling us what will work?
@39. It isn't just 'religion'--it is a certain kind of religion. There are religious people for gay rights, usually in mainline and progressive catholic churches as well as reform synagogues, and there are religious people against gay rights, usually in evangelical and fundamentalist churches and orthodox synagogues. To say it is 'religion' is not at all helpful. It is the traditional Black Church and some other urban types of sects and denominations that support anti-gay sentiments.
And, Dan, you gotta check out Michele Wallace's BLACK MACHO AND THE MYTH OF THE SUPERWOMAN. A young black feminist wrote a book about gender politics in the black community during civil rights/black power days. She told the truth. She was harangued for it, eventually forced to apologize. She peeled back the curtain and let people see how fucked up black men are about their masculinity due to racial oppression in the first part, BLACK MACHO. It truly is helpful for understanding the defensiveness of blacks on gender and sexual issues. (Patricia Hill Collins' recent book is helpful, too.) I've actually been spending some time thinking about how some messaging could tap into the "I am a man" frame from decades past. Gay men and black men are often both denied their masculinity. I'm guessing, however, that straight and DL black men won't be receptive to this message....either.
Which raises the question: when are black gays and lesbians going to stop telling us we're racist and start telling us what will work?
81
To 67, Yeek: Actually, you don't know whether or not Kayla has been denied the right to vote. Its not as though there aren't living people in America today who were denied at the very least physically prevented from voting, such as literacy tests before the Voting Rights Act was passed in 1965.
Also, a black person can be born into a white supremacist family. Just ask the millions of biracial people in America who SHOULD be identified by all of their racial ethnicities, such as Barack Obama, but are generally only perceived as black. Not to mention, the black community isn't immune to hatred of other black people. I once had a teacher ask if another student and i were related because we had the same last name and she was convinced we weren't because I am SO much lighter than he.
This is at heart an issue of class and education with side effects of racism and homophobia. Numbers can be presented in such a way that they basically lie, so without proper context, this post is extremely irresponsible and counterproductive to gaining equality for everyone.
Also, a black person can be born into a white supremacist family. Just ask the millions of biracial people in America who SHOULD be identified by all of their racial ethnicities, such as Barack Obama, but are generally only perceived as black. Not to mention, the black community isn't immune to hatred of other black people. I once had a teacher ask if another student and i were related because we had the same last name and she was convinced we weren't because I am SO much lighter than he.
This is at heart an issue of class and education with side effects of racism and homophobia. Numbers can be presented in such a way that they basically lie, so without proper context, this post is extremely irresponsible and counterproductive to gaining equality for everyone.
82
Dan doesn't dig very deep. This issue is not as easily understood as any of these polls he's been slapping around and he's not equipped to deal with the complexity.
What is this eagerness to pin the tale on the Black donkey about?
What is this eagerness to pin the tale on the Black donkey about?
83
It do not matter, I know gays personally know that it is wrong and have changed their ways. If you don't repent you are going to hell anyway. Now they want civil rights,please get right. Two women together or two men how perverted is that. Nothing hard about it, gays just want people to accept their ways. You can change man laws to allow a same sex marriage but that will never be accepted in the eyes of God whom we all will face someday.
It is so sad that this world is in so much darkness towards this issue and yes, that is all it is an issue no truth about.
It is so sad that this world is in so much darkness towards this issue and yes, that is all it is an issue no truth about.
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