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Tuesday, December 2, 2008

Prop 8: Race to the Finish

Posted by on Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 2:36 PM

Some of the handful of people out there still angry at me for what they think I wrote about Prop 8—and not, you know, what I actually wrote—sent me the link to Charles Blow's column in the New York Times this weekend.

We now know that blacks probably didn’t tip the balance for Proposition 8. Myth busted. However, the fact remains that a strikingly high percentage of blacks said they voted to ban same-sex marriage in California.

Agreed: blacks didn't tip the balance. I never said that they did; and I never "blamed" blacks for the passage of Prop 8. (Blow isn't addressing me, I realize. But folks sent me the link to his column with notes that basically amounted to "See! You were wrong!") I did note that African Americans voted for Prop 8 at much higher rates than other racial groups—at least according to CNN's widely cited exit poll. I've been admonished for citing exit polls at all, since exit polls can be unreliable. (No one has admonished me, however, for citing exit polls showing that Obama won fewer gay votes than Kerry; exit polls that make gay voters look bad can be freely cited; exit polls that make straight black voters look bigoted cannot.) But Blow, who, unlike me, "gets it all right," according to one person who sent me a link (along with a bullshit accusation of racism), cites the very same exit poll data I did:

There was one very telling (and virtually ignored) statistic in CNN’s exit poll data that may shed some light: There were far more black women than black men, and a higher percentage of them said that they voted for the measure than the men. How wide was the gap? According to the exit poll, 70 percent of all blacks said that they voted for the proposition. But 75 percent of black women did.

I can't remember if I discussed the fact that black women voted for Prop 8 at greater rates than black men. I do recall ranting about it aloud to someone—someone in the office? someone on CNN?—and I found it distressing for the very same reason that Blow does: the homophobia in the African American community isn't just warping the lives of black gay men. It's quite literally killing straight black women. Blow:

More specifically, blacks overwhelmingly say that homosexuality isn’t morally acceptable. So many black men hide their sexual orientations and engage in risky behavior. This has resulted in large part in black women’s becoming the fastest-growing group of people with H.I.V. In a 2003 study of H.I.V.-infected people, 34 percent of infected black men said they had sex with both men and women, while only 6 percent of infected black women thought their partners were bisexual. Tragic. (In contrast, only 13 percent of the white men in the study said they had sex with both men and women, while 14 percent of the white women said that they knew their partners were bisexual.)

By helping to create and maintain a culture that rejects gay black men and insists that "gay" is essentially white—by putting gay black men in the untenable position of having to choose between their racial identities and their sexual identities—black women are killing themselves. (And the racism in the gay community—see the 7% of gay Kerry voters who went for McCain this time out—doesn’t help either.)

Back to Blow: the columnist suggests two "don'ts" for gay groups hoping to reach black women:

First, comparing the struggles of legalizing interracial marriage with those to legalize gay marriage is a bad idea. Many black women do not seem to be big fans of interracial marriage either. They’re the least likely of all groups to intermarry, and many don’t look kindly on the black men who intermarry at nearly three times the rate that they do, according to a 2005 study of black intermarriage rates in the Wisconsin Law Review. Wrong reference. Don’t even go there.

Second, don’t debate the Bible. You can’t win. Religious faith is not defined by logic, it defies it. Instead, decouple the legal right from the religious rite, and emphasize the idea of acceptance without endorsement.

Decoupling marriage-the-civil-right from marriage-the-religious-rite? Gay leaders like Evan Wolfson are careful to point out the difference between civil and religious institutions of marriage; I made that same point about “rights” and “rites” in my post about a bigoted column in the UW Daily. ("Fact is, the state usually has very different concepts about a lot of things—usually broader concepts, to accommodate social and religious differences—than any one church or faith might. That's why we have civil marriage rights and religious marriage rites.") But we should make this point louder and clearer and more often and make sure we’re reaching black voters.

And, no, let's not debate the Bible. As I wrote in February of last year...

We should be out there making this case to bigots like Hardaway and Washington and Dobson and Falwell and Musgrave: No one wants to change your mind about homosexuality. You can think we’re naughty, you can think we’re sinful. And you know what? You can sign off on granting us our full civil rights.... But so long as we conflate liking us—or believing that Jeebus loves us too—with granting us our fundamental civil rights, we make winning those civil rights that much more difficult.

But as to Blow's point on comparing gay marriage to interracial marriage—comparing the freedom to marry the person you love to, er, the freedom to marry the person you love—I have to disagree, even if the comparison turns off straight black women. More on why in a moment.

But first: I was roundly criticized for citing the exit poll data—and my disappointment with the African American vote—without offering up some constructive suggestions for how we—"we" meaning gay people, who aren't all white—could've done a better job reaching out to straight black voters. (And the "No on 8" campaign did an abysmal job reaching out to blacks—straight and gay.) Unlike my first post about Prop 8—which I wrote on Wednesday, November 5, moments after "Yes" was declared the winner—Blow's column, written more than two weeks after the vote, does include constructive suggestions. His "don'ts”, above, and this single "do":

So pitch it as a health issue. The more open blacks are to the idea of homosexuality, the more likely black men would be to discuss their sexual orientations and sexual histories. The more open they are, the less likely black women would be to put themselves at risk unwittingly. And, the more open blacks are to homosexuality over all, the more open they are likely to be to gay marriage. This way, everyone wins.

In other words, tell straight black women that their homophobia, which is grounded in a moral judgment (Blow's column was headlined "Gay Marriage and a Moral Minority"), is hurting them too. Point out that they are victimizing themselves. It's a good strategy, a solid argument. But it's one that eventually winds up back at a debate about the Bible. We can say, "Accept homosexuality—or at least be 'open... to idea of homosexuality'—so that gay black men can come out and live openly. Because the life you save may be your own." But we're likely to get this in response: "But my Bible says..."

Now back to Blow’s “drop it” suggestion about the comparison between interracial marriage and gay marriage:

As the slingers of racism charges have been pointing out since November 5: the African Americans vote in California was too small to have been decisive. It didn’t “tip the balance.” Which is why, they’ve argued, that citing the black vote on Prop 8 amounts to an inflammatory distraction. It's divisive, not helpful, motivated by racism, conscious or subconscious, wocka wocka wocka. But the very next thing of their mouths is this: To advance its political agenda, the gay community—which for the millionth time is not all white—must to do more and better outreach to straight African American voters. We need to do more and better outreach to... a community whose votes did not "tip the balance" on gay rights this year and probably won’t in future years. And Blow argues that to reach out to these voters—these non-decisive voters—the gay movement should retool its message and drop arguments that are apparently working with other, much larger segments of the voting public—whites, Latinos, Asians—including arguments that compare “legalizing interracial marriage with [legalizing] gay marriage.”

The same voices can't argue that, on gay rights, the straight black vote is so unimportant that it’s a divisive distraction to even note it and at the same time argue that the straight black vote is so important that the gay movement must retool its messages to target the black vote—even if it means dropping (“Don’t even go there”) messages that are working on groups of voters that are large enough to “tip the balance.”

I happen to believe that the black vote on Prop 8, while not decisive, has to be noted (and with distress); and that the gay community must do a better job reaching out to straight black voters.

 

Comments (65) RSS

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1
Homophobia doesn't kill black women.
AIDS they get from lying cheating men who engage in homosexual acts kills them.
Posted by SmellTheCoffee on December 2, 2008 at 2:42 PM
2
Yes Dan. Yes, yes, yes!!
Posted by Yeek on December 2, 2008 at 2:46 PM
3
Shut the fuck up Dan you racist!

Beat ya to it.....
Posted by Yeek on December 2, 2008 at 2:49 PM
4
According to Nate Silver at fivethirtyeight.com, the group that really made a difference was older voters. The older the voter, the more likely he or she would vote yes on Prop. 8.

Nonetheless, I am a California voter, and I gave money to No on Prop. 8 (I'm also a big fan, by the way), and I saw the No on Prop. 8 campaign close up. To be blunt, the campaign sucked. Outside of the civil rights issue, they never gave anyone a reason to vote against Prop. 8. There are so many reasons to vote against gay marriage - tourism, health issues, etc. - but none of these reasons were even hinted at.

Then they denied the whole thing about kids learning about gay marriage in schools. That was dumb. Instead they should have come out and said, look, this proposition doesn't protect marriage, its trying to prevent homosexuality from gaining legitimacy. That's why they made a big deal out of schools!

Let me stop my rant here, but basically the problem was that No on Prop 8 ran a campaign where it basically said to voters, "Gay marriage is scary, but its a civil right." Total wrong way to go, and that's why they lost. On the plus side, the demographics are changing.
Posted by Jim on December 2, 2008 at 2:50 PM
5
use a jump.

Fag
Posted by ecce homo on December 2, 2008 at 2:52 PM
6
Blacks don't buy the argument that Gay marriage is the same as inter-racial marriage because they recognize that it isn't.
It is telling that they went for Prop 8 overwhelmingly.
And now a bunch of smart ass white yuppie gay boys going to explain Civil Rights to African-Americans?
Good Luck
Posted by Your Name Here on December 2, 2008 at 2:53 PM
7
You're STILL going on about this?
Posted by N on December 2, 2008 at 2:58 PM
8
I think gay couples should get married if they plan on having/adopting children.

Otherwise there's really no reason to get married.

This applied to straight couples as well.

Just sayin.
Posted by gk on December 2, 2008 at 3:01 PM
9
"And now a bunch of smart ass white yuppie gay boys going to explain Civil Rights to African-Americans? Good Luck"

How many times do you have to be told that the gay community isn't all white? How many latino and black (and chinese and pakistani and israeli, etc) gay people are there in this country? Millions?

Also, and this has really been pissing me off, black people did indeed create the civil rights movement in this country, but they don't now get to decide what is and isn't a civil rights issue. The black community can disagree with my lifestyle all they want. That doesn't give them license to strip me of my rights.
Posted by Jason E on December 2, 2008 at 3:02 PM
10
@6. Please explain to us why it isn't the same. I can understand why it may not resonate the same, given that it may send a message to blacks that "marrying outside of your race" is something to be desired. But, why doesn't the argument that "people should be able to marry the one they love, regardless of color or gender", work?

Also, I don’t think the “health” argument would work. First off, I think it’s too far removed from the issue at hand. But, it also seems like putting the fear into women that their men might be sleeping around with other men, is not the best way to get them to come around on gay marriage. If anything, it might make them more resistant to gays.
Posted by Julie in Chicago on December 2, 2008 at 3:05 PM
11
I am so tired of a vote for McCain being a vote for racism. Prop 8 asked one question: Do you think it is OK to take away from gays a right that straights have? Voting "yes" on 8 was by definition homophobic, since it dealt only with the issue of gay rights.

But voting for the Presidency of the US is a little more involved than that. To continually say that any queers who voted for Kerry and not Obama are racist is asinine, because it assumes that the only difference between the two was race. Plus, most people who voted for Kerry were actually voting AGAINST Bush, history's greatest disaster. You can actually vote against Bush, for McCain and not be a fucking member of the KKK.

I didn't vote for McCain, but saying that those 7% are obviously racist is just too fucking stupid for words.
Posted by renbot on December 2, 2008 at 3:07 PM
12
If gay black men weren't such hypocritical, ON THE DOWN LOW, machismo, perverted-versions-of-men (perversion is a non-sexual word) there might be a better presence of black homosexuals to change the minds of their family.

I have as much animosity toward on the down low black men as I have of closeted white men.

for shame. why should they be included in our movement anyway? Move your damn selves.
Posted by Blunt on December 2, 2008 at 3:08 PM
13
@7: Well, Blow was going on about this on Saturday, and people were sending me links—so I figured that 1. the issue was still go-on-able and 2. that readers wanted me to react to Blow's column... otherwise they wouldn't send me the links. Feel free to scroll on by, if you're not interested.
Posted by Dan Savage on December 2, 2008 at 3:08 PM
14
About the 7% of gay Kerry voters who went for McCain this time, I think it's a bit of a leap to automatically ascribe that to racism. There were some legitimate gay objections to be made to how Obama conducted his campaign-- like, for instance, the whole Donny McClurkin homo-bashing gospel tour fiasco, and Obama's overt religiosity throughout his campaign, as well as his avoidance of taking a clear affirmative stand on key gay issues. That kind of shit made it very hard for this gay voter to fill in the bubble next to Obama's name. And I met a number of low-information gay voters who actually thought that Palin/McCain had a better track record on gay rights than Obama-- yes, those gays were misinformed, but then, the Obama campaign did precious little to counteract such perceptions. Like all left-leaning constituents, teh gays were sent not-so-subtle messages from Obama and his surrogates that the left was and is irrelevant to his very right-centrist goals.
Posted by drewvsea on December 2, 2008 at 3:10 PM
15
"so long as we conflate liking us—or believing that Jeebus loves us too—with granting us our fundamental civil rights, we make winning those civil rights that much more difficult."

Wasn't this the No on 8 campaign in a nutshell? Supporting gay marriage from inside the closet? As the execrable Dianne Feinstein said, "No matter how you feel about marriage, discrimination is [blah blah blah] . . ." We have to make gay marriage a positive idea, not something you should begrudgingly confer on us regardless of how much you hate us.
Posted by bobbo on December 2, 2008 at 3:13 PM
16
Okay, Dan, leaving that single exit poll in the past and moving on, you'll now be sitting down with local queers of color (and non-queers and anyone else who needs to be in the coalition that Californians failed to build) to discuss how to avoid the mistakes in California and what campaign tactics you recommend in Washington State exactly when?
Posted by Andy Niable on December 2, 2008 at 3:13 PM
17
No one has admonished me, however, for citing exit polls showing that Obama won fewer gay votes than Kerry


this is because we'd already learned that it's pointless to try to talk about math.
Posted by josh on December 2, 2008 at 3:24 PM
18
Andy Niable, Dan's involvement in the local gay community equates to making money off of it (providing access to it for advertisers).

Get it through your skull.
Posted by Non on December 2, 2008 at 3:25 PM
19
So I think we should indeed argue that Jesus loves us (by which I mean shorthand for "gay people are people just like you"), because while this might not sway every African American, it might sway some, and it will continue to sway others in other communities. After all, we don't need 51% of the African American vote to make gay marriage legal again.
Posted by bobbo on December 2, 2008 at 3:25 PM
20
Hooray! I was one of the ones that sent you this article, eagerly awaiting your response to it. Dancrush salvaged and intensified. I'm such a Savage fanboy. My friends and I are all waiting for you to get a bigger, national soapbox so you can talk sense into this country. More Dan more better.
Posted by Sippin A Latte on December 2, 2008 at 3:26 PM
21
Class, your homework tonight is a 1500-word essay on the topic of "backpedaling". Please use a real-life example of a time you stuck your foot in your mouth, got called on it, and unsuccessfully tried to cover your tracks. Cite at least three news sources in your essay, and use the following article as a reference:

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/02/06/opi…
Posted by Miss Othmar on December 2, 2008 at 3:26 PM
22
I thought you did a great job of anticipating Blow's advice to "decouple right from the religious rite" on DL Hughes.

Not sure who's calling you racist, but I wouldn't get too worked up about.
Posted by seandr on December 2, 2008 at 3:26 PM
23
I think obsessing over the imaginary disproportionate AA "Yes" voters is dumb dumb dumb. Dan is right to point out the folly of discrediting the exit poll & promoting outreach to the AA community. But he is dismissing the wrong part of that.

The exit poll should be discredited, but the out reach should be toward EVERYFUCKINGONE! I realize people aren't advocating only reaching out to the AAs, but it certainly seems that way...
Posted by Mike in MO on December 2, 2008 at 3:28 PM
24
Am I the only one here who does not understand why the discussion on who is homophobic is limited to the african american community? It seems that too many of our so called gay leaders define the world of homophobia by the boundaries of metropolitan areas such as seattle, san francisco, new york, etc. the problem extends into the rural, or red america. why are we as a community relunctant to acknowledge this powerful voting block? these people are responsible for the organized effort against gay couples having the right to marry yet we limited our focus to the african american community. did african americans pass amendments against gay marriage in nebraska, etc? our leaders, such as dan savage need a scapegoat to cover their asses on the passage of prop. 8. it is far more strategic we focus on promoting african american pro-gay leadership such as deval patrick, david patterson, barack obama and the black congressional caucus as examples for the african american community to listen to and emulate. remember, the same homophobic community elected these pro-gay individuals into office. finally, we african american gays have a hard enough time with race and sexuality. i have personally experienced hostility from white gays and lesbians that is polarizing my viewpoints towards them as individuals. i do not feel anyone has the right to hurl their hostility at me since i would be the one who has to deal with such hostility already from the african american community. now, white gays and lesbians feel entitled to take a punch at me as well? enough already, if you really care care about fostering support for our causes.
Posted by richard smith on December 2, 2008 at 3:39 PM
25
@18: Sorry, but I have a very thick Irish skull, and it won't get through to me until Dan says, "Sorry, I don't have time to meet with local leaders, I have a plane to catch to be on Maher/Colbert/Larry King/The View/whatever..."

Or until he actually shows some leadership and sits down with local queers and non-queers of all colors and discusses how to avoid the mistakes made in California.

See--I'm not calling Dan a racist or any names at all. I'm not accusing him of anything. I'm asking for a declaration of priorities, of purpose: Dan, if your purpose is to be editor of The Stranger and post over and over and over and over about black votes for Prop 8 (along with one or two posts about queers voting for McCain or finally citing Nate Silver's debunking of that exit poll that you had cited to death), and to point fingers at plenty of folks who may or may not deserve to be called out... great, do that (and you have.)

I'm simply challenging that you NOW turn the corner and spearhead (or at least suggest) the way FORWARD. Solutions, please. Ideas. Blueprints for a coaltion please, right here in our own state.

And a dialog with local queers of color just might help put all that water under the bridge--if that bridge hasn't been burned to cinders yet.
Posted by Andy Niable on December 2, 2008 at 3:40 PM
26
@19

Jesus does love you.
It breaks his heart when you engage in destructive behavior.
He is there to help you move beyond the destructive behavior if you will.
But if you insist that the destructive behavior is normal and just as good as constructive behavior you are making it difficult to help you.
When you try to institutionalize perverted destructive behavior and teach young school children it is ok and place children to be raised in homes by adults who will teach them from infancy that the perverted destructive behavior is ok then the problem is raised to a new level.
Because if men create a world where children growing up have no chance to choose good for themselves but are indoctrinated from infancy to accept and choose perverted destructive behavior then it becomes grossly unfair to place any new beings into that world.
I don't want to guess what would happen to such a society but that is the kind of places Sodom and Gomorrah were.
Posted by Stop,Drop&Roll on December 2, 2008 at 3:55 PM
27
@10

Civil Marriage has nothing to do with love.
No one guarantees anyone the right to marry who they love.
The person you love may already be married. Or hate your guts. Or be your cousin.
The government doesn't ask you if you love anyone when they issue a marriage license.
If you are looking for a fairy tale, Princess, please look in the children's section at Barnes&Noble.
But leave the laws governing the institution of Marriage alone.
Posted by carey on December 2, 2008 at 4:05 PM
28
@7. Why do you ask that? And why do you ask it with that tone? Isn't that what everyone keeps saying? That we need to talk about this? Isn't Dan doing what everyone's been screaming at him to do? Offering "constructive" ideas?
Posted by jade on December 2, 2008 at 4:06 PM
29
#26.

Who does this behavior destroy? What is destroyed? Obviously having a man and a woman to raise a child results in nothing but good lives and choices for their children. No sexual abuse, no being chained in the basement, no suffocating them because they cry too much.

Yes, it would be grossly unfair to put a child into a world where consenting adults can express their love for each other. That would suck. Wouldn't want to be there in that fiery hellhole.
Posted by roland303 on December 2, 2008 at 4:13 PM
30
Every heterosexual relationship is not perfect,
therefore,
we should allow men to marry one another.
perfectly logical.
Posted by Spock on December 2, 2008 at 4:28 PM
31
@30. Are you really missing the entire point? Or are you pretending to miss the entire point in order to make a misguided smartass remark? If you really are missing the point, I'll take the time to explain it. If you're just being purposely obtuse, you know, the way of all trolls, I'll let it go.
Posted by jade on December 2, 2008 at 4:39 PM
32
I almost puked when I waw the cover of the Advocate this week -- "Gay is the new black."
Jesus can we be anymore stupid in our alliance building? Gay is not the new black, the old black is still in trouble, even though we will soon have a black president...
and the triteness of that comment, making hundreds of years of oppression sound like a blurb form Vogue... jesus k rist...

And dont get me started about the lazy writing aspect of this.. it would be far more challenging to have a cover that says "Why gay is NOT the new black" and be able to report on the complexities of racism and homophobia.
ON the other hand, we are talking about the Advocate here.
Posted by Womyn2me on December 2, 2008 at 5:08 PM
33
Also, appealing to AA women as a health issue? Insane.

"Hi! I'd like to explain to you why hating gays means gay/bi guys will be closeted & fuck around and give their beards the HIV. Your man may be taking it in the ass right now as we speak, ma'am."

Uh, NOT going to work ever ever ever...
Posted by Mike in MO on December 2, 2008 at 5:09 PM
34
Mike In MO,

"...gay/bi guys will be closeted & fuck around behind your back...Your man may be taking it in the ass right now as we speak, ma'am."

That's what in my family is called "Pulling A Eugene" as in my cousin Joanne's Ex-Husband (Eugene) married a stupid teenage girl like Joanne, get her pregnant, and then run off with some other married guy...or get caught flagrante delicto in some park by a cop. We all think gay men should marry other gay men instead of dumb girls like Joanne.
Posted by La Lezebel From Jezebel on December 2, 2008 at 5:59 PM
35
@ 6
>>"And now a bunch of smart ass white yuppie gay boys going to explain Civil Rights to African-Americans?"

No, I think a lot of us have realized that it's not very productive to try, especially since the AA community vote has now been proven to be inconsequential in this particular struggle. We're just going outfight you and enjoy watching you choke on it when it finally happens.

@19
>>"So I think we should indeed argue that Jesus loves us (by which I mean shorthand for "gay people are people just like you")"

No. We should argue "you don't have to like gay people to do the right thing." People hate the idea of approving of homosexuals. Let them know it's okay to keep their disgust as long as they give us our rights. Win-win.

@ 24
>>"did african americans pass amendments against gay marriage in nebraska, etc?"

No, and it turns out they didn't pass it in California either. That's exactly why focussed outreach to this one community clearly isn't worth it. It's too small a group.

>>"i have personally experienced hostility from white gays and lesbians that is polarizing my viewpoints towards them as individuals"

Boo hoo. I've had black men call me faggot on the street. Waaah. It doesn't mean no one can ever say anything critical about me or my community ever again.

@25
>>"Or until he actually shows some leadership and sits down with local queers and non-queers of all colors and discusses how to avoid the mistakes made in California."
>>"And a dialog with local queers of color just might help put all that water under the bridge--if that bridge hasn't been burned to cinders yet. "

Why can't Dan simply make suggestions about strategy the way he is in this article? Far more people are likely to read his blog than attend some roundtable about "confronting paradigms of discourse and white hegemony" at the local community center. Can't local queers of lesser readership arrange these events? Dan is doing far more good where he is.
More...
Posted by Yeek on December 2, 2008 at 6:02 PM
36
My mother is CONVINCED that it will mean her church has to perform gay marriages. I tell her this is untrue, her friends tell her it is true. You gays should blanket the airwaves with cultural authorities explaining that it's a purely civil right, and will have no religious implications.
Posted by Terry on December 2, 2008 at 6:10 PM
37
@35

Even if you accept the flawed premise that more that 70% of Blacks voting for Prop 8 was not significant to the outcome in California you cannot ignore the fact that Black voters were critical in many of the 29 (TWENTY-NINE) other states that have passed their own Prop 8 Constitutional Amendments.
Ignoring Blacks is a vote for more of the same-
unending defeat.
0 for 30.
Posted by GetAClue on December 2, 2008 at 6:19 PM
38
@36

Your mother and her friends are right.
Shove your cultural authorities up your ass.
Posted by Your Name Here on December 2, 2008 at 6:21 PM
39
you sure spent a lot of time defending yourself for something you didn't do and don't seem to care about
Posted by If the glove don't fit on December 2, 2008 at 6:23 PM
40
I'm gonna go ahead and say that the whole "gay guys spreading AIDS in the black community" thing isn't a good one to concentrate on. Every black homophobe I know mentions it as an argument against homosexual behavior before the Bible, even. There's a lot of "husband on the downlow now her baby has AIDS!!!!" fearmongering out there, and uh...it actually has been negative for gay guys, not positive at all.

Otherwise the religious black community needs to be approached like the Southern religious white community, they have the same origins. At best you can help remove religion with more education and less poverty, but considering that civil rights for blacks are even less accepted than civil rights for gays I don't think that's happening anytime soon.

Also rich white homos need to stop trying to compare themselves to poor black folk in the Jim Crow era, it's embarrassing. On second thought, stop making them spokespeople for the gay community in the first place. (Yea I know you can't really help that).
Posted by EmmiG on December 2, 2008 at 6:37 PM
41
Stop, Drop & Roll @ 26:

Jesus is love.
It breaks his heart when you engage in hateful behavior.
He is there to help you move beyond the hateful, intolerant behavior if you wish to.
But if you insist that hateful and intolerant behavior is normal and just as good as constructive behavior you are making it difficult for anyone to help you.
When you try to institutionalize hate and intolerance and teach young school children it is okay and place children to be raised in homes by adults who will teach them from infancy that pervese hateful and intolerant behavior is ok then the problem is raised to a new level.
Because if men create a world where children growing up have no chance to choose good for themselves but are indoctrinated from infancy to accept and choose hateful and intolerant behavior then it becomes grossly unfair to place any new beings into that world.

Amen!
Posted by schweighsr on December 2, 2008 at 6:44 PM
42
love the sinner
hate the sin

some behavior is intolerable
Posted by ! on December 2, 2008 at 6:58 PM
43
@ 4 -- ''According to Nate Silver at fivethirtyeight.com, the group that really made a difference was older voters. "

Yes, and for the umteenth time, Nate bungled the basic arithmetic on that calculation. Surprising, but true.

Now, speaking of Marilyn Musgrave, high hilarity continues in the wake of her political comeuppance (for which I take considerable historic credit).

For an index to aforementioned cause for mirth, see Musgrave finally concedes election.
Posted by RonK, Seattle on December 2, 2008 at 7:04 PM
44
@27. Nobody (least of all me) is arguing that anybody should be able to marry anybody else they want to. There are valid reasons why you can’t have marry someone who is your cousin, or already married, or underage, etc., (but, you knew that, of course). There is, however, no valid reason why two people of the same gender (or the same color) should be prevented from having a civil marriage.
Posted by Julie in Chicago on December 2, 2008 at 7:07 PM
45
Widely accepted thesis:

3 adults should not be able to get married to each other.

Reason: ...................................?
Posted by PC on December 2, 2008 at 7:22 PM
46
Cat in a litter box.
Posted by Tricyclic on December 2, 2008 at 7:53 PM
47
Gays should stop trying to tinker with the law, because in the history of the United States, we have never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, changed any law regarding marriage. Marriage laws are exactly the same as they were at the founding of the Republic and adoption of the Constitution, and should remain as such for all time.
Posted by So just stop it, you gays on December 2, 2008 at 8:03 PM
48
So, as I understand it, straight black women voted in favor of Prop 8 because so many of them have been infected with HIV, given to them by their Down Low partners -- who are on the D.L. because of the homophobia in their community, which is the result of attitudes that contribute to the 'yes' vote on Prop 8.

Surprisingly, I'm OK with that. Serves you right, betches.
Posted by montex on December 2, 2008 at 8:11 PM
49
Holy fuck. You've got some rabid commenters here.
Posted by Will Radik on December 2, 2008 at 10:27 PM
50
We are them and they are us.
The mainstream gay community doesn't seem to care about the oppression in terms of both race and class that many in their community suffer from, explicitly the black community. This shouldn't simply be about outreach into the nether world of the south end. It should be about actual solidarity on our mutual issues.
Posted by matt- on December 2, 2008 at 10:53 PM
51
I remember hearing a talk about how one of the mutations that confers resistance to HIV (I think in CCr5, Jonathan) occurs mostly/only in black men. I considered the possibility that it was my duty (as a white woman) to breed with as many black men as possible to disperse this allele in the population. You know, just to do my part. It wouldn't matter really if they were gay or straight.

Or if I got pregnant.
Posted by idaho on December 3, 2008 at 12:22 AM
52
@41
No one hates you, schweighsr.
We feel sorry for you.
But we can't sit by idly while you and your buddies trash the institution of Marriage.
sorry.
hope you understand.
nothing personal.
just civic duty.
Posted by momma on December 3, 2008 at 3:19 AM
53
@ 37 -

I'm an evidence-based guy. If you can show some convincing stats that the black vote alone was enough to make or break an antigay amendment in any of those 30 states, I promise to seriously reconsider the importance of outreach to that community. For now, though, I'm skeptical.

@ 51 -

The ccr5 mutation occurs almost exclusively in Caucasians. It is much rarer in Africans. Also, the mutation is found in women as well, not just men.
Posted by Yeek on December 3, 2008 at 6:05 AM
54
find your own stats, geek
or,
just wallow in your
smug ignorance and bigotry
after all
it's worked fine
for you
so far
Posted by timeofday on December 3, 2008 at 6:35 AM
55
Keep playing it as a civil right which has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. What your religious beliefs are or are not has nothing to do with a constitutional right to equal justice under the law. It says just that across the portico at the Supreme Court Building. Why is it never enough you have the right to believe whatever religious nonsense you want? Why must you think you can push your religion on everyone else, unless you are either jealous or deep down don't really believe your religion yourself?
Posted by Vince on December 3, 2008 at 7:18 AM
56
As a general rule most Democrats are going to support Gay marriage and most Republuicans not. There will be some variation but it is a valid general guideline.
In many states Blacks are a huge proportion of the Democratic vote. If you contemptuously dismiss them you have a really small chance to get your measure passed.
Georgia in 2004 passed an amendments that bans Gay marriage and also Civil Unions.
It passed with 74%.
Blacks supported it 80%.
Blacks are more than half of the Democratic vote in Georgia.
Maybe in the West Blacks are not a big part of the electorate (I was surprised what a small %% they were in California) but East of the Mississippi I think a lot of states have similar demographics to Georgia.
It may have passed in Georgia without Black votes but if you are going to ignore Blacks then in a LOT of states you really handicap yourself.
Posted by cmjohnson on December 3, 2008 at 7:38 AM
57
One thing that's off about the analogy with interracial marriage is that the current situation for gays and lesbians is more comparable to blacks ONLY being allowed to marry outside their race than NOT being allowed to marry outside their race. A more apt comparison is to the fact that in many states blacks used to not be allowed to marry AT ALL. Those laws began to change after slavery was abolished because marriage was seen as something free people have a right to partake in.
Posted by db on December 3, 2008 at 10:39 AM
58
@ 54

Was that for me? Loved the blank verse format. Now, @ 56 may not make the nice turns of phrase you do, but s/he has certainly made a point that makes me reconsider my position. You should try that approach next time - not as flowery, but more substance.

@56

Where'd those numbers come from? Please let me know. I sincerely want to check it out. You've made the first good point here in ages. If the black vote in Georgia is half of actual voters (not registered voters), then getting the AA community down to the roughly 50-50 split that we see with most other ethnic groups would mean that about 15% of the vote would go the other way. That's just enough to beat the initiative.

Impressive!
Posted by Yeek on December 3, 2008 at 4:05 PM
59
54 and 56 are the same poster, actually.
mood swings.
In Georgia in 2004 Black voters were over half of Democratic voters, 24% of total voters.
The data came from CNN 2004 election coverage exit polls, I got to the page from a link in the footnotes on a wiki page about gay marriage amendments but I can't find it now.
Posted by since you asked so nice on December 3, 2008 at 5:39 PM
60
@ 59

Oh...well, if you find it again, please post the link.

24% is less than I expected, so maybe it wouldn't have made a difference after all. But I do agree that when any group can tip the scales if we convince a percentage to change their minds, it's worth thinking about making an extra effort targeting that particular group for outreach. For those groups whose vote won't help, then they should just fall under the mantle of the general campaign. I suppose it'll depend on the demographics of each battleground.

Posted by Yeek on December 3, 2008 at 6:13 PM
61
The cities didn't burn. I felt hostage.
Posted by Domaine on December 4, 2008 at 5:10 PM
62
I don't think any of us thought you said "blacks tipped the balance." I was pissed because you knew damn well they didn't and still chose to single them out--because your feelings were hurt.

you wanted to punish them, because you did them a favor by voting for the guy who did high-profile outreach to us and refused to villainize "us" or reduce the complexities of sexual minorities in america to a few neatly-packaged soundbites.

we get it -- blacks should have returned the white gay obama-vote favor. because except for the outreach and not reducing them to soundbites, we've done a lot to build those relationships. Not to mention all that prop 8 community visibility we had during the campaign....
Posted by ekz on December 5, 2008 at 12:23 AM
63
"and Obama's overt religiosity throughout his campaign, as well as his avoidance of taking a clear affirmative stand on key gay issues. That kind of shit made it very hard for this gay voter to fill in the bubble next to Obama's name"

#14 are you kidding? Obama's interviews about overturning DOMA and calling for federal civil unions is not an affirmative stance on 'key gay issues'? McCain's party endorsed a fed marriage ban. And Kerry and Bush ran on virtually identical no-marriage stances.
Posted by ekz on December 5, 2008 at 12:36 AM
64
#11 said: ""Prop 8 asked one question: Do you think it is OK to take away from gays a right that straights have? Voting "yes" on 8 was by definition homophobic, since it dealt only with the issue of gay rights.""

since your post is about wanting to avoid reducing things to simplicity, I think it's probably useful to point out that prop 8 was not actually worded like that, nor is the idea of marriage so simply reduced to a 'progay' or 'antigay' thing.

if we keep attributing a "yes on 8" vote *only* to simple homophobia we aren't going to get anywhere or change any minds. It's time to do some real research on all the communities who have been monitored and oppressed by the government's investment in marriage, how other communities' sexualities have been regulated, and how economics and unmarried families complicate the picture when we talk about having "equal rights" to those who have very little context for understanding what that means.

If we really think so many voters care all that much about us, that's our first mistake. Most people just want their own security. We need to be doing activism for all families, so that they don't feel their own resources are being threatened. It cant just be about us. They need protections too.
Posted by ekz on December 5, 2008 at 12:48 AM
65
Savage, if you're going to keep coming back to the comments when folks criticize you, you probably ought to say something about this kind of thing as well. Again, you are a community leader. We don't need your personal defensiveness. We do seek your guidance.

#48: So, as I understand it, straight black women voted in favor of Prop 8 because so many of them have been infected with HIV, given to them by their Down Low partners -- who are on the D.L. because of the homophobia in their community, which is the result of attitudes that contribute to the 'yes' vote on Prop 8.

Surprisingly, I'm OK with that. Serves you right, betches.
Posted by Stephanie on December 5, 2008 at 9:24 AM

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