Tuesday, December 2, 2008
Hetero / Religion First Kiss
Posted by Christopher Frizzelle on Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 8:33 AM
In October, in Florida, my brother married a woman he had been dating for a year and a half. They met in church, teaching Sunday school to teenagers together. My brother's evangelical righteousness burns bright, and the scripture he and his bride chose as the centerpiece of the ceremony was the one about how the woman is not a human being and she must do whatever her husband says and never ask him questions or whatever. (They acted like this was the most beautiful passage in the Bible, and woefully under-appreciated.) And then came the part in the ceremony where the groom was invited to kiss the bride, and everyone in the room was rapt, because this was THE FIRST TIME THEY'D EVER KISSED on the lips. Ever. After a year and a half of dating. Because of God.
Sorry about the all-caps. Months later, I'm still a little stunned. To be fair to the rest of my family—many of whom are Bible literalists but most of whom aren't that crazy—all of us were a little stunned. None of us knew until the night before that the kiss we were about to witness was their first ever, and wouldn't have known if my stepmom hadn't snuck my brother a sly smile after the rehearsal dinner and said, "You better give her a nice big kiss tonight because it's her last night as a single woman," to which my brother said something like, "Um, actually..."
This brother has been married before, and that marriage dissolved almost immediately, therefore he had failed to live up to a promise he made to the Lord. Or something. So this marriage in October was my brother's attempt to do it right. How promising God you're going to spend eternity in wedded bliss with someone you've never made out with—how do you know you have chemistry with someone if you've never made out with them?—constitutes doing it right is beyond me, but he and his bride are not alone.
Take a gander at this smiling pair, who never kissed before their wedding this past weekend. (They are both abstinence "educators" in Chicago Public Schools: "And they say they practice what they preach. To avoid temptation while dating, they made sure they were never alone with each other in a house. When they watched movies on the couch, they snuggled sitting straight up, never lying down.") The bride's quote in the article—"I don't know how long it will last, but it'll be great"—doesn't refer to what the sex will be like on their first night (as I first thought), or how long their marriage will last (my second thought), but how long she expected the first kiss itself to last.
What, you ask, was my brother's first kiss with his bride like? Once he got the green light from the man there to represent the Lord, he leaned in for a long kiss, seemed to light up inside, stood up, and then leaned back in for a second kiss. At which point, the pastor broke them apart.
It was about 10:30 pm at the reception before my brother was looking to... um, get outta there, if you know what I mean. Imagine his excitement. "I think she and I are going to do our last dance after this song," he said. Someone said, knowingly, "And then you're gonna go." And my brother blurted, "Yep! CAN'T WAIT!"
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2
I think that is sweet. Not for everyone, but sweet.
While the chemistry argument is valid, I believe that if you marry someone, you are doing it for far more than the mere physical elements of it. So you make it work. And if it really is love and not just something magical you dreamed up, its lasts.
Or you cheat a lot.
While the chemistry argument is valid, I believe that if you marry someone, you are doing it for far more than the mere physical elements of it. So you make it work. And if it really is love and not just something magical you dreamed up, its lasts.
Or you cheat a lot.
4
Wow. I grew up thinking that was the way to do it. Now not so much. I'm pretty sure its not gonna last if we haven't screwed by the 2nd date.
6
Although I think waiting until marriage before kissing and sex is a dumb thing to do, the majority of marriages in the world are arranged by families and often the bride and groom haven't even SEEN each other before the wedding.
The idea of marriage as a romantic thing that people do for love is a westernized idea that only exists in the US and other first-world countries.
The idea of marriage as a romantic thing that people do for love is a westernized idea that only exists in the US and other first-world countries.
7
Well, this certainly is not the way I'm going about getting married, but more power to 'em if that's what they want to do. And there's still a chance that they'll be able to meet each other's sexual needs despite abstaining from all sexual behavior prior to marriage. It's just much more of an unknown this way.
8
Out of all the crazy things in that post, I’m going to focus on this one… Why would your brother think that not kissing before marriage is “doing it right” in the eyes of God? Does the Bible say something about this that I missed? Does he think that no one on earth is “doing it right”, save for the incredibly tiny percentage of people who don’t kiss before marriage? I mean, many people (including religious people…) kiss before their wedding and have long, successful marriages.
I drive myself crazy sometimes looking for rationale explanations of why religious people do the things they do.
I drive myself crazy sometimes looking for rationale explanations of why religious people do the things they do.
9
Why do I have the feeling that this is the vision of marriage that must be protected from The Gays? Not just the idea that marriages should be founded on shame and sexual repression, but the idea that one "partner" in the arrangement should be completely subordinate to the other.
10
Urgutha, the "majority" of worldwide marriages you seem to glamorize are often of the forced variety, and divorce doesn't happen in such marriages because the bride can be murdered by her own family if she leaves her husband.
I'll take the "westernized idea" of marriage for love, thank you very much.
I'll take the "westernized idea" of marriage for love, thank you very much.
11
BTW, this is how straight people see gay relationships, or alternately, how aliens observe human behavior
12
Whoa, did they ever read Song of Solomon together!? Now there's the sexiest chapter in the Bible.
13
@5 - What you said.
And - um - Why is this on SLOG?
Religion is stupid, I get it. But your brother is still your brother.
And - um - Why is this on SLOG?
Religion is stupid, I get it. But your brother is still your brother.
14
So, it wasn't either of their first kisses ever, just their first kiss with each other? I mean, isn't the biggest pro for couples who wait to have sex that at least they have nothing to compare it to?
Is she pregnant yet, or are they taking measures to ensure they have ample time to develop their intimacy alone?
I mean, more power to them. But, yikes.
Is she pregnant yet, or are they taking measures to ensure they have ample time to develop their intimacy alone?
I mean, more power to them. But, yikes.
15
I confess that I committed to someone before kissing her. But we met online, and there was an escape clause that if we couldn't make it work, we'd get on with our lives.
Turned out pretty good. That was more than 15 years ago.
But under most circumstances, I really wouldn't recommend it! If you have the chance to get to know someone, you should do so in every way you can before you get together. That is one hell of a weird story, man!
Turned out pretty good. That was more than 15 years ago.
But under most circumstances, I really wouldn't recommend it! If you have the chance to get to know someone, you should do so in every way you can before you get together. That is one hell of a weird story, man!
16
Everyday, I'm not glamorizing arranged marriages... hell, that would suck even more than not kissing or having sex before getting hitched! I'm just saying that not kissing until the wedding, although odd to us, is more akin to what happens in the rest of the world.
17
So...my guess? Either one or both are gay.
My brother and I grew up in a fundamentalist religion, and he lorded over me the fact that he was extremely righteous, and was the strong one in his ability to overcome his urges for women. He didn't kiss his bride until after they were engaged, and only a few times then before marriage.
Gay. Married 10 years and out. Never had an attraction to women.
My brother and I grew up in a fundamentalist religion, and he lorded over me the fact that he was extremely righteous, and was the strong one in his ability to overcome his urges for women. He didn't kiss his bride until after they were engaged, and only a few times then before marriage.
Gay. Married 10 years and out. Never had an attraction to women.
18
@6
Agree with you. The majority of marriages (including those in the Occident) in the human race have been arranged or were polygamous (Polygamy is still very prevelant on earth). The concept of a romantic/partnership marriage is a relatively recent phenom (about 200 years). While this particular couple's first kiss is quaint and not unusual they still stand a great chance of breaking up especially considering one of the spouses has already had a failed marriage. That said, I still wish them all the best.
Agree with you. The majority of marriages (including those in the Occident) in the human race have been arranged or were polygamous (Polygamy is still very prevelant on earth). The concept of a romantic/partnership marriage is a relatively recent phenom (about 200 years). While this particular couple's first kiss is quaint and not unusual they still stand a great chance of breaking up especially considering one of the spouses has already had a failed marriage. That said, I still wish them all the best.
19
@14: I often wonder about the religious folks who get pregnant right away as well. My husband's family are all religious... get married young almost as soon as you start dating, have lots of kids, live the rest of your life chained to someone.
I want time to be with my man. Just him and me.
I don't get how people could marry someone they've only dated for a few months and then proceed to make tons of kids with them immediatley. I mean jeez... do you even LIKE the guy?!
I want time to be with my man. Just him and me.
I don't get how people could marry someone they've only dated for a few months and then proceed to make tons of kids with them immediatley. I mean jeez... do you even LIKE the guy?!
20
@5, @13: +1
I think there's probably a bloggers etiquette somewhere (or there should be) and Christopher violated Rule 1. Pretty tacky.
I think there's probably a bloggers etiquette somewhere (or there should be) and Christopher violated Rule 1. Pretty tacky.
22
I think the arranged marriage comparison is a little bit off. Urgutha said it @6 – that these marriages have traditionally not been romantic pairings, but rather the merging of families for financial/political/social reasons.
But, Christopher’s brother’s wedding was clearly in the Western, romantic pairing mold. So, saying that arranged marriages don’t typically kiss before their wedding is a little apples/oranges. In marriages that are romantic pairings, where love and sex are important, not kissing before the wedding, seems, at best pointless and at worst ill-advised.
But, Christopher’s brother’s wedding was clearly in the Western, romantic pairing mold. So, saying that arranged marriages don’t typically kiss before their wedding is a little apples/oranges. In marriages that are romantic pairings, where love and sex are important, not kissing before the wedding, seems, at best pointless and at worst ill-advised.
23
Frizzelle had every right to write about this. His brother and sister-in-law already spoke to the Chicago Tribune days ago, touting their marriage and lifestyle. Presumably they wanted press coverage to get a platform for their beliefs.
I suppose there are those who think you can put your freaky abstinence lifestyle out there and claim it's an example, yet nobody is allowed to criticize? I don't think so.
Now...
She's making an analogy with something that is not real. The whole point of a test drive is to take the car out of the parking lot. I don't think the word "analogy" even applies when you're drawing a parallell between what you want and something that you only pretend is similar to the thing you want. Solipsism?
I suppose there are those who think you can put your freaky abstinence lifestyle out there and claim it's an example, yet nobody is allowed to criticize? I don't think so.
Now...
Yes, they've heard "test drive the car before you buy," but LaLuz has her own analogy. "You can't take the car out of the parking lot until you pay for it," she said.
She's making an analogy with something that is not real. The whole point of a test drive is to take the car out of the parking lot. I don't think the word "analogy" even applies when you're drawing a parallell between what you want and something that you only pretend is similar to the thing you want. Solipsism?
24
Other people's kinks always seem odd. If they managed to keep their hands, and such, to themselves then it's likely they're both of the low libido persuasion and don't have to worry about high /low libido conflicts.
@9, BINGO!
@9, BINGO!
25
I sat in the front row watching my extremely religous sister get married for the third time. The centerpiece of their ceremony was the part about how marriage is a sacred pact between a man and a woman ONLY.
I feel your pain, Christopher, and I return it with a renewed sense of outrage.
I feel your pain, Christopher, and I return it with a renewed sense of outrage.
26
@23: the couple in the Tribune story who don't understand car buying anaologies are Melody LaLuz and Claudaniel Fabien, not Brother Frizzelle and his bride.
27
Ok, I'm a christian. A real one, who thinks that these guys are taking it to the extreme. BUT, if that's what they want to do, then fine.
As for all the comments regarding there's not rationale for this type of choice, it all stems from the interpretation of how evangelical christians believe God has designed them. Not having sex outside the bonds of marriage is foundational to their belief. Most evangelicals believe that it's to protect their hearts and to honor their future spouse and to keep sex special. Most who choose this are are intent upon honoring God with integrity as they live their lives -- even if noone is watching.
Not that I'm going to convince anyone that it's the right thing to do, but it IS their choice to believe that.
Still, you're talking about **maybe** one percent of the population. The rest of us want to road test that to be sure.
As for all the comments regarding there's not rationale for this type of choice, it all stems from the interpretation of how evangelical christians believe God has designed them. Not having sex outside the bonds of marriage is foundational to their belief. Most evangelicals believe that it's to protect their hearts and to honor their future spouse and to keep sex special. Most who choose this are are intent upon honoring God with integrity as they live their lives -- even if noone is watching.
Not that I'm going to convince anyone that it's the right thing to do, but it IS their choice to believe that.
Still, you're talking about **maybe** one percent of the population. The rest of us want to road test that to be sure.
28
Um, no, elenchos@23 -- believe it or not, there are apparently TWO such couples in this country, and Frizelle's brother is half of one of them. Not the one in Chicago, not the one from the article.
29
1 Corinthians 7, 36-38. Paul's pretty clear. The unmarried state is the better one and you should only get married if you find yourself not living chastely. This chaste couple should have stayed single and kept marriage for us more Earth bound types.
If we all followed Saint Paul, there would be no marriage without pre-marital sex.
If we all followed Saint Paul, there would be no marriage without pre-marital sex.
30
The Quakers in the 18th century used to do "bundling" where a young couple would meet and be allowed to lie in bed together and converse. The stipulation? They had to be bundled in quilts by their parents so that arms and legs were immobilized. Then a 12 in wooden board was placed as a divider between the two.
32
And, all those Sloggers have been madly mocking Mormons for weeks -- yes, how very Strange.
Mormons, kiss like crazy, make out, light petting OK, not supposed to fuck, many do, and preach against being slutty like most protestant religions.They like kids and make good sense talking about a healthy sex life in your marriage, very out front and factual.
Your brother is totally on cloud nine. Pity the poor children who will be so brainwashed.....those fucking Fundies.
They don't value education, like bogus science, mock much of current health care, modernity, and are rabidly anti gay, and vote against us on all chances. Famed for home schooling fearing the outside world.
Sorry .... had to say it.
Bro and new sissy might be lucky ... if they are really in tune, and might be, could be nice for ever. Here's hoping.
Mormons, kiss like crazy, make out, light petting OK, not supposed to fuck, many do, and preach against being slutty like most protestant religions.They like kids and make good sense talking about a healthy sex life in your marriage, very out front and factual.
Your brother is totally on cloud nine. Pity the poor children who will be so brainwashed.....those fucking Fundies.
They don't value education, like bogus science, mock much of current health care, modernity, and are rabidly anti gay, and vote against us on all chances. Famed for home schooling fearing the outside world.
Sorry .... had to say it.
Bro and new sissy might be lucky ... if they are really in tune, and might be, could be nice for ever. Here's hoping.
34
I don't like to dis people's families, but people who are that tied to religious fundamentalism.....well. What if she turned out to be a cold, dry fuck? Or he were a rabbit fuck? And please don't tell me that that wouldn't matter.
35
Bailo - I take back what I said about you not being as entertaining post-election. That was interesting, and I googled and found a good article on it... http://www.quiltersmuse.com/bundling.htm
36
AND AS WE ALL KNOW - god is fixated on your genitals......to the exclusion of hunger, orphans, widows, violence, greed and no justice.
MAKES perfect sense.
MAKES perfect sense.
37
i attended an evangeical christian college in illinois 30 years ago and there was lots and LOTS of kissing between dating and engaged couples. plenty of public making out and furtive backrubs and fingers on clits and hand jobs and clothed frottage and blow jobs ..but no sex. back then in the minds of the students only intercourse was sex( remember again bill clinton saying he didn't have sex with that woman ?,, bill was actually telling the truth as he knew it from that culture.. remember don't ask don't tell ? that's the prevalent unwritten rule in the land where fundamentalism is the mindset of generations.)
that's right . evangelicals didn't consider any of those acts as sex acts proper . sex was penetration of a womans vagina with a man's penis. this buisness of not kissing evolved overtime as evangelicals changed their thinking of sexual behavior and there is still some confusion among evangelicals as to what sex really is. but what precedes the confusion is the idea of purity. it's the fluid dictates of purity that birthed the notion of abstinence. whether or not waiting until you get married to kiss your spouse will work , time will tell. but i'm guessing there may be plenty of practice kissing going on between couples who have no intention of marrying.
neccessity is the mother of invention
that's right . evangelicals didn't consider any of those acts as sex acts proper . sex was penetration of a womans vagina with a man's penis. this buisness of not kissing evolved overtime as evangelicals changed their thinking of sexual behavior and there is still some confusion among evangelicals as to what sex really is. but what precedes the confusion is the idea of purity. it's the fluid dictates of purity that birthed the notion of abstinence. whether or not waiting until you get married to kiss your spouse will work , time will tell. but i'm guessing there may be plenty of practice kissing going on between couples who have no intention of marrying.
neccessity is the mother of invention
38
Make fun all you want, you know if gay marriage were legal and gays accepted by evangelicals, some of us would be doing the same shit...
I dated one a while back, actually- He was totally traditional about dating, and after five sexless dates I deemed him too sex-negative and cut my losses.
He's happily coupled now, with a guy he didn't sleep with until they'd been together for two months(!)
I dated one a while back, actually- He was totally traditional about dating, and after five sexless dates I deemed him too sex-negative and cut my losses.
He's happily coupled now, with a guy he didn't sleep with until they'd been together for two months(!)
39
That's completely mental.
My boyfriend and I have been fucking for over 20 years. If we are ever allowed to get married, I'm pretty sure our marriage will last. Our relationship is very, very well road tested.
Your brother's marriage? I give it less than a 10% chance...
My boyfriend and I have been fucking for over 20 years. If we are ever allowed to get married, I'm pretty sure our marriage will last. Our relationship is very, very well road tested.
Your brother's marriage? I give it less than a 10% chance...
40
It's a shame that Frizzelle's brother appears never to have actually read the Bible, because in the eyes of Jesus, the brother is an adulterer, pure and simple, and committing adultery is not a minor infraction, but a violation of the seventh commandment. Jesus said:
It is very clear in the gospels that divorced persons are not to remarry. So the pastor who married these two essentially aided and abetted adultery. I wonder where the real fundamentalists are when you need them?
Anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.Matthew 19:9; Mark 10:11; Luke 16:18.
It is very clear in the gospels that divorced persons are not to remarry. So the pastor who married these two essentially aided and abetted adultery. I wonder where the real fundamentalists are when you need them?
41
I'd have to be a born-again Christian to hate my brother enough to hold him out to the ridicule in a forum like this. My brothers hold religious beliefs that I find absurd, but they're still my brothers.
Speaking of people who have never read the Bible -- I'd love Frizzelle to identify the verse of scripture to which he refers in his first paragraph -- "the one about how the woman is not a human being and she must do whatever her husband says and never ask him questions or whatever. " I'm unaware of such a verse.
Speaking of people who have never read the Bible -- I'd love Frizzelle to identify the verse of scripture to which he refers in his first paragraph -- "the one about how the woman is not a human being and she must do whatever her husband says and never ask him questions or whatever. " I'm unaware of such a verse.
43
@41 Ephesians 5:22-24, NRSV:
Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the Church, the body of which he is the savior. Just as the Church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands.
But you knew that.
Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the Church, the body of which he is the savior. Just as the Church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands.
But you knew that.
44
King James is more hardcore.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
45
A psychologist friend of mine was telling me about research that indicates religious spousal abuse may stem or result from gigantic let-downs of expectations among men who do not know what to do waiting for women who do not know what to do. inadequacy, regret, etc etc.
Go God
Go God
46
Actually, their chances of divorcing are a bit odd. When you have to work hard for something, you usually appreciate it more. They had to work hard (probably) to keep from kissing and fucking each other, so they'll maybe appreciate it more? Plus, being uber-christian typically fills people with shame about divorcing. However, the guy's already been married and divorced once, so the chances of this marriage working just plummeted.
But best of luck to the bride and groom anyway!
But best of luck to the bride and groom anyway!
47
I don't give a damn what they do in their relationship; it's their cult's imposition of its delusional values and attacks on me and my family that make me stabby.
50
First, as long as Frizzelle has informed his brother of his feelings of shock and his brother is proud of their decision, it's totally fair game to Slog about.
Human behavior is adaptive...I just hope this is adaptive to their unique love, not to a lack of passion or heterosexual urges.
Personally, I find that the more carnal behavior I engage in with my partner, the more I want to commit to him. And then do it a bunch more. And my friends who do it less often seem to be less interested in continuing their relationships. Am I the only who finds this direct correlation between relationship quality and physicality?
Human behavior is adaptive...I just hope this is adaptive to their unique love, not to a lack of passion or heterosexual urges.
Personally, I find that the more carnal behavior I engage in with my partner, the more I want to commit to him. And then do it a bunch more. And my friends who do it less often seem to be less interested in continuing their relationships. Am I the only who finds this direct correlation between relationship quality and physicality?
51
I take into consideration that the Bible was written by men who saw women as possessions with a status perhaps lower than that of the family pet, and realize it is all BS preached by a bunch of pro-paternal insecure dudes.
That's how I see it, anyway.
That's how I see it, anyway.
52
@49, Genesis Chapter 9 is more of an example of the sort of things that you ought not to do.
@51, Some of the stuff in there certainly looks like it was written by a woman. If you are familiar with the JEDPR theory J looks female. The problem is that the Bible is a conversation. We're suposed to pay attention to the conversation and not focus on what any one voice is saying. Sometimes those voices get it right, sometimes they get it wrong. Usually when they get it wrong somebody else comes along and corrects them.
@51, Some of the stuff in there certainly looks like it was written by a woman. If you are familiar with the JEDPR theory J looks female. The problem is that the Bible is a conversation. We're suposed to pay attention to the conversation and not focus on what any one voice is saying. Sometimes those voices get it right, sometimes they get it wrong. Usually when they get it wrong somebody else comes along and corrects them.
53
Eww. I really fear for any children that this marriage may produce. How screwed up will those kids be?
54
I support consenting adults doing whatever they want.
Unfortunately, they will probably expect their kids to be just like mommy and daddy, and will thus forgo any contingencies that they are not, i.e. sex ed, where babies come from, how to not end up the victim of molestation... everyone's been saying "good luck" to the couple, I say good luck to their kids...they're going to need it.
Unfortunately, they will probably expect their kids to be just like mommy and daddy, and will thus forgo any contingencies that they are not, i.e. sex ed, where babies come from, how to not end up the victim of molestation... everyone's been saying "good luck" to the couple, I say good luck to their kids...they're going to need it.
55
I grew up Catholic, so I know all about the fantasy of saving yourself for marriage. As far as I'm concerned, first kiss, first fuck, it's stupid to save any of those things for you're wedding day. I truly regret I didn't sow my wild oats in college. Instead I lost my virginity to the guy who would eventually become my husband, and then my ex-husband. If we'd gotten around more then, we probably wouldn't have gotten married. We still like each other alot, but getting married was stupid. Ah well.
57
Sounds like my older cousin's wedding that I went to when I was 14. They even quoted the same passage of King James. I had to run away when they started talking about the Apocalypse. And write bad poetry about it. Happy now, Christopher? Thanks for making me relive that. I'm going back to working on layout.
58
My cousin had a wedding just like that last year. My uncle (not the groom's father, but my other uncle) told me the story. He is a chaplain and ordained and he was shocked by the wedding. And when I tell the story about that being their first kiss, I put it in all caps, too.
59
I love to kiss - sad indeed to read this
my life would be empty with hours of kissing every week with several boyfriends
yes, very hot stuff, once I get my lips on them they always get all aroused and sexual
even the so called straight ones
my life would be empty with hours of kissing every week with several boyfriends
yes, very hot stuff, once I get my lips on them they always get all aroused and sexual
even the so called straight ones
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