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News & ArtsMonday, December 1, 2008
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:32 PM
A "Savage Love" letter arrived the old fashioned way today—post!—and for purely sentimental reasons it's the SLLOTD.
Here's the text...
I was wondering if you or any of your readers could exaplin why so many women are so defensive with compliments.I've on several occasions been at the store and have seen some very nice looking women of all size, shapes, color, age, I think you get what I'm so meaning, and I've said to them you have great hips, or other tastefully ways of complimenting them and it seems that a lot of them are offended by it. Now I'm a guy who really likes women, Period, I'm happily married 30 yrs. And my wife and I both flirt and expect it to go no further and if it is invited by the one flirted to we kindly decline as has happened only once to each of us and we flirt even when with each other. We mean no harm in this and we feel if someone is looking at the one your with they must be pretty good + you should be happy about it. We have often complimented the same sex as we are and see nothing wrong with it but it's all the same.
If anyone can answer this it would be appreciated. Enjoy your work.
Roy
Oh, Roy! You and your tastefully ways!
4
I don't understand why attractive young women in the grocery store get all huffy when I ask them to come out to my storage unit and shoot some pornos with me.
5
Roy is probably unattractive. Women only want to be desired by men they find desirable. They don't find it flattering to be desired by some poor shlub, unless the shlub has a LOT of money, and even then, not so much.
Regardless, I have obviously found many MANY women attractive, but I have never been so crass to refer to their looks. Like #3 said, it's creepy.
Regardless, I have obviously found many MANY women attractive, but I have never been so crass to refer to their looks. Like #3 said, it's creepy.
7
Giving compliments to the weak of character and the self-hating will always result in defensiveness. For those that like themselves and think they are attractive, a compliment only reinforces that thought and is generally welcome. Of course a compliment given with no forethought as to delivery is no better than saying, "dinner is ready" while throwing a hand full of veggies and such at the table.
9
Most of the time, I see the random-stranger-compliment as some sort of approval-validation on their part. I wasn't looking for your approval, you would know if I was, so don't offer it. It's also important to note that men (not all, but most) don't have to fear that random "You have great hips" as a potential threat to his well being.
10
Whenever I rape women in the park, I always choose only the prettiest and comely women. But i do not understand why they always take offense. they should take it as i intended, as a compliment.
11
Here's a compliment to show that I'm thinking about you in a sexualized context. What, you aren't thinking of me like that? What is wrong with women today?
12
Well said Sargon and Elizabeth. I do appreciate the letter writer's appreciation of all the fascination to be had out there. It's amazing.
15
It doesn't really matter what someone looks like. If you are just going about your day and some guy decide to hit on you like that, it can be really creepy Especially if they compliment a specific body part. A perfectly nice looking guy told me I had nice skin once. It was fucking terrifying.
@7 It has nothing to do with "weak-character," you ass.
@7 It has nothing to do with "weak-character," you ass.
17
Of course a compliment given with no forethought as to delivery is no better than saying, "dinner is ready" while throwing a hand full of veggies and such at the table.
Lol!
Lol!
18
dan, you let out the secret to getting your letter answered: snail mail! doesn't matter if you're a semi-literate socially inept leering old man--do you have a stamp? you're in! prepare yourself for real-life-mailbox inundation
20
@15, your skin is SO lovely. So creamy and delicious. It would look just darling on a hanger in my closet.
22
By the letter's timeline (married 30 years), Roy has to be at least in his 50s.
...and yet he dots his "i"s in his letter with little circles like a 12 year old girl.
THAT is a manifestation of why pretty ladies find him scary.
...and yet he dots his "i"s in his letter with little circles like a 12 year old girl.
THAT is a manifestation of why pretty ladies find him scary.
23
I often compliment random women and typically if not always they smile back in a way that looks to show that it made their day. (random compliments of a non-creepy nature always makes mine) I however have a few things going for me. I am an attractive and stylish gay man and my compliments are never about body parts. Never. Not ever.
24
@20 To this day, it still gives me the creeps to think about it.
That's what happens when unsolicited compliments are too specific. You come off sounding like Buffalo Bill.
That's what happens when unsolicited compliments are too specific. You come off sounding like Buffalo Bill.
25
So I suppose someone should volunteer to print out this comment thread, put it in an envelope, and send it to Roy so he can join in the fun.
26
A nice "you look wonderful", or "you are beautiful" MIGHT get you a smile or a thank you if it's done tastefully. But a stranger complementing specific body parts, that's just creepy and eww. Hips and breast are absolutely no-no!
28
Some compliments sound like compliments and some sound like a prelude to locking me in a basement filled with medieval equipment. I'm sorry that I can't give an absolute guide to what's going to sound like what. I've received some nice comments from strangers that brightened my day, and I've received whistles from cars that made me want to throw a brick through their window.
If the man wants to live in a world where women's sexuality is totally voluntary and none of us find strangers' discussions of our bodies to imply the threat of physical harm, maybe he should donate to NOW or Men Can Stop Rape or something. I can't get worked up about a person being deprived of their God-given right to get a warm glow from complimenting people.
If the man wants to live in a world where women's sexuality is totally voluntary and none of us find strangers' discussions of our bodies to imply the threat of physical harm, maybe he should donate to NOW or Men Can Stop Rape or something. I can't get worked up about a person being deprived of their God-given right to get a warm glow from complimenting people.
29
I like to stand in the produce aisle and comment on women's breasts' and buttocks' resemblance to tomatoes, pears, cantaloupes, cabbage, coconuts, etc. Because, baby, I don't mean nothing by it, but you've got a lovely pair of rutabagas. I have a mandoline, I'll julienne you all night long....
30
Roy just has to wait a few years until he appears to be squarely in senior-citizen territory. As is, his creepy compliments conjure ideas of either threat or unsanctioned fantasizing, because he still exudes some virility. Once he looks like an old man, he'll get much more leeway. Old dudes have said some truly shocking things to me, but I've extended them the courtesy of laughing it off, because they were "safe."
31
commenting on a random stranger's body is usually interpreted in a sexualized context.
to NOT be creepy when complimenting a woman's body you probably need to be:
a) a woman (and even then it can be creepy)
b) a gay dude (and well groomed), which is basically the same as a)
c) a good-looking eligable male who understands that they are fully hitting on the woman
to NOT be creepy when complimenting a woman's body you probably need to be:
a) a woman (and even then it can be creepy)
b) a gay dude (and well groomed), which is basically the same as a)
c) a good-looking eligable male who understands that they are fully hitting on the woman
33
Yeah, one time a guy came up to me on the street and said right up close to my ear, "You have the most beautifulest buttocks." I'm wondering if it was you, Roy??? Guess I should have taken it as a compliment instead of hurrying away.
I just want to agree with Elizabeth, Elianara, Olive, etc. A "compliment" on specific body parts from a stranger -- when you are not out at a club or in a situation where it's clear you're in the market for that kind of attention -- is just creepy to women. Because I don't know you, and I don't know if you're a nice guy or a violent, unstable psycho, and in my experience, nice guys generally don't open with a "I like those hips, pretty lady." At least not if they want me to talk to them.
Also, note to guys on the street: if you want to say something mildly innocuous and flirty, like, "Hello, beautiful," and you want any chance of a smile or a returned greeting, I cannot stress this enough: Say it to my FACE, not my ASS! Saying it once I've walked past just ensures I'll ignore you and think you're a total asshole.
Had to vent. But seriously, has Roy asked his wife this same question (does he actually have one?) and if so, does she honestly appreciate it when strange men comment on her body parts? There's a HUGE difference between harmless flirting (which is mutual, and often begins as totally non-sexual playful conversation) and harassment, which is one-sided and uninvited and creepy. It astounds and kind of frightens me that someone who's been married 30 years would not understand the difference.
I just want to agree with Elizabeth, Elianara, Olive, etc. A "compliment" on specific body parts from a stranger -- when you are not out at a club or in a situation where it's clear you're in the market for that kind of attention -- is just creepy to women. Because I don't know you, and I don't know if you're a nice guy or a violent, unstable psycho, and in my experience, nice guys generally don't open with a "I like those hips, pretty lady." At least not if they want me to talk to them.
Also, note to guys on the street: if you want to say something mildly innocuous and flirty, like, "Hello, beautiful," and you want any chance of a smile or a returned greeting, I cannot stress this enough: Say it to my FACE, not my ASS! Saying it once I've walked past just ensures I'll ignore you and think you're a total asshole.
Had to vent. But seriously, has Roy asked his wife this same question (does he actually have one?) and if so, does she honestly appreciate it when strange men comment on her body parts? There's a HUGE difference between harmless flirting (which is mutual, and often begins as totally non-sexual playful conversation) and harassment, which is one-sided and uninvited and creepy. It astounds and kind of frightens me that someone who's been married 30 years would not understand the difference.
34
stop that, wisepunk, or you'll never be on my slog trivia team again.
dammit, fnarf, i gotta start shopping at YOUR grocery store.
dammit, fnarf, i gotta start shopping at YOUR grocery store.
35
Compliments from middle aged strangers are creepy with very little exception, especially if the guy's wife is standing there smiling at you. Compliments from anyone on specific body parts come off as either bad pick up lines (you have beautiful eyes) or scary, as in the hips comment. I don't want to be marginalized to separate parts, and having Ed Gein do it in the supermarket is enough to make me dial 911 on my cell phone and just wait to hit 'send'.
This letter reminds me of construction workers who leer and hoot and then ask why women aren't flattered. I hope Roy reads Slog and not just Savage Love.
This letter reminds me of construction workers who leer and hoot and then ask why women aren't flattered. I hope Roy reads Slog and not just Savage Love.
36
@30, Old men can be even scarier than middle-aged men. In the age of Cialis they're not as "safe" anymore and with the possibility of Alzheimers taking away their judgment . . . I've seen some guys in nursing homes try to rape nurses because they didn't know where they were or what was right.
37
Aislinn, how much longer do I have before I can safely compliment you on your luscious Isles of Langerhans?
Scary, maybe you can help me decide which of these cucumbers is fully ripe?
OK, am I creepy enough now?
Scary, maybe you can help me decide which of these cucumbers is fully ripe?
OK, am I creepy enough now?
38
@5. Be fair. It's not just women. It's true, women will rudely ignore or give a dirty look to an unattractive man who "insults" them by complimenting them.
But guys will just as rudely ignore women who do the same. Or laugh in their face. It depends if their buddies are around.
But Ray? He's another problem altogether. I'm thinking even if he is goodlooking, that "nice hips" comment makes him seem creepily dangerous.
But guys will just as rudely ignore women who do the same. Or laugh in their face. It depends if their buddies are around.
But Ray? He's another problem altogether. I'm thinking even if he is goodlooking, that "nice hips" comment makes him seem creepily dangerous.
39
Going back to Roy's assertion that he and his wife compliment both sexes and "it's all the same" -- I just wanted to point out the distinction between complimenting someone on their scarf/earrings/tie/shoes/tattoo etc. vs. commenting on their body.
When you compliment a stranger's style, you are doing two things: 1) commenting on their personal taste and 2) letting them know you share it. You've actually validated something that's a choice, given them insight about your own taste, and offered a way to open a conversation. They now know you both like tee-shirts with anthropomorphic fruit, or purple combat boots, or what have you, and you can go from there. Whereas if you comment on someone's body, what are they supposed to say? Thanks, my genes like to know they expressed themselves to your satisfaction? I'll think of you when I'm on the elliptical?
When you compliment a stranger's style, you are doing two things: 1) commenting on their personal taste and 2) letting them know you share it. You've actually validated something that's a choice, given them insight about your own taste, and offered a way to open a conversation. They now know you both like tee-shirts with anthropomorphic fruit, or purple combat boots, or what have you, and you can go from there. Whereas if you comment on someone's body, what are they supposed to say? Thanks, my genes like to know they expressed themselves to your satisfaction? I'll think of you when I'm on the elliptical?
40
aw, come on people, we should not pile onto this functionally autistic man. it's not nice to snipe at the disabled. he probably has been baffled by the negative reactions his entire life, and would be no nearer an understanding of it after reading this than he was at the age of 13 when little suzie next door slapped his clueless face.
41
1 ... Women in Seattle are ugly, they know it, and are always on the defensive about EVERYTHING.
2... I am a gay guy, very good looking, trim, 6feet 2in and eyes of bright blue and very butch. A bit of gray at the temples. Banter with older women is all OK, but, should I even ask directions, time of day, or make a random comment at the check stand - the younger ones get rigid and look like they just ate a lot of ice. Really. The last thing I want is their tits or pussies.
Seattle women make being gay a harvest here ... poor straight guys, and I bet they nag and nag and nag. And play the I am womon thing to the max...
Read the comments, the responses to poor old Ray are just hostile shit, from mostly ugly bags.
2... I am a gay guy, very good looking, trim, 6feet 2in and eyes of bright blue and very butch. A bit of gray at the temples. Banter with older women is all OK, but, should I even ask directions, time of day, or make a random comment at the check stand - the younger ones get rigid and look like they just ate a lot of ice. Really. The last thing I want is their tits or pussies.
Seattle women make being gay a harvest here ... poor straight guys, and I bet they nag and nag and nag. And play the I am womon thing to the max...
Read the comments, the responses to poor old Ray are just hostile shit, from mostly ugly bags.
43
@ 41 If I was stopped on the street by someone that oozed misogyny like you seem to, I'd be pretty frosty too.
44
sorry ladies, the highest of compliments in a gay bar is"nice ass"
if the guy with the smile who offeres the comment is your taste, the night will go smoothly
if not, you say thanks with grace and charm and move on
simple
and believe me, I know from where I speak.... yup, genes and hard work growing up seem to have done a good job creating super rounded ass
there is not need to be rude at all
I don't pay attention to the dating and mating rituals of the hets, but it seems loaded with weird stuff, money, job, prime looking, education, nice car, you pay the bill, too coy forever - tons of old shit - lucky they ever get to sex after they get out of college
if the guy with the smile who offeres the comment is your taste, the night will go smoothly
if not, you say thanks with grace and charm and move on
simple
and believe me, I know from where I speak.... yup, genes and hard work growing up seem to have done a good job creating super rounded ass
there is not need to be rude at all
I don't pay attention to the dating and mating rituals of the hets, but it seems loaded with weird stuff, money, job, prime looking, education, nice car, you pay the bill, too coy forever - tons of old shit - lucky they ever get to sex after they get out of college
45
#43
The posts are about dating, compliments, and how and why some women seem to lack the grace to repond with charm vs. the hard core old fuck you fuck off to a compliment, even a poorly worded one.
Bet you get few about anything. Nothing to do with
misogny at all - of course - the word of last resort is to assume that. Such charm under pressure.
Remember I am gay, not even slightly interested in a come on, and, like Ray, have wondered what is the hostile aloof thing about. None of my lesbian friends, and I have many, ever project all that attitude about anything.
If you told a lesbian she had nice hips, chances are she would shake her butt at you and make a good joke out of the not so cool remark....
The posts are about dating, compliments, and how and why some women seem to lack the grace to repond with charm vs. the hard core old fuck you fuck off to a compliment, even a poorly worded one.
Bet you get few about anything. Nothing to do with
misogny at all - of course - the word of last resort is to assume that. Such charm under pressure.
Remember I am gay, not even slightly interested in a come on, and, like Ray, have wondered what is the hostile aloof thing about. None of my lesbian friends, and I have many, ever project all that attitude about anything.
If you told a lesbian she had nice hips, chances are she would shake her butt at you and make a good joke out of the not so cool remark....
46
@41: Wow, I hope your good looks are enough to make up for that abysmally shitty personality. Oh, sorry, was that "hostile"?
47
@18 -- just sending a letter snail mail doesn't seem to get an answer, just a public posting.
I thought it was all very fine until I noticed the circles over the i's and that the "compliment" was "nice hips".
Nice hips? WTF?
I thought it was all very fine until I noticed the circles over the i's and that the "compliment" was "nice hips".
Nice hips? WTF?
48
#40 - if it were possible to bet, I would bet Ray has had a great sex life ... better than most all the posters here ... who can just knee jerk in the negative.
Huff huff huff. No formula for getting laid often and well.
Huff huff huff. No formula for getting laid often and well.
49
@41. Re: Read the comments, the responses to poor old Ray are just hostile shit, from mostly ugly bags.
I'm extremely goodlooking, so . . . you're wrong. But then, I'm not rude when anyone compliments me. But then again, some guy in a grocery store has never said, "Nice hips" to me. Hmm.
@44. there is not need to be rude at all
Absolutely right, there is no need to be rude. Except often, straight guys--depending on age--tend to take a gracious, charming "no thank you," as not exactly serious. Often, they'll keep at you, smile back, say something else flirtatious. After a girl has put up with that once or twice or thrice, she tends to be a little more blunt in her "no thanks." I'm not saying this is always the situation. There are vicious bitches out there who love nothing better than to emasculate unattractive guys who "dare" to speak to them. And I could say the same if the genders were reversed.
But honestly, comparing the "rules" of straight meat markets with gay ones is simply . . . well, there's no comparison.
I'm extremely goodlooking, so . . . you're wrong. But then, I'm not rude when anyone compliments me. But then again, some guy in a grocery store has never said, "Nice hips" to me. Hmm.
@44. there is not need to be rude at all
Absolutely right, there is no need to be rude. Except often, straight guys--depending on age--tend to take a gracious, charming "no thank you," as not exactly serious. Often, they'll keep at you, smile back, say something else flirtatious. After a girl has put up with that once or twice or thrice, she tends to be a little more blunt in her "no thanks." I'm not saying this is always the situation. There are vicious bitches out there who love nothing better than to emasculate unattractive guys who "dare" to speak to them. And I could say the same if the genders were reversed.
But honestly, comparing the "rules" of straight meat markets with gay ones is simply . . . well, there's no comparison.
50
Everybody has made some great points here (well, except 41)... I'm all for being gracious when someone gives you a compliment, but if some random guy came up to me in the grocery store and said I had nice legs or whatever (with no prelude), I would mostly likely be creeped the fuck out. Regardless of whether he was attractive or not.
Not necessarily because I would be afraid for my safety, but because here is this weird dude sexualizing me in this completely non-sexual environment.
It could maybe be done in a non-creepy way. Maybe. But the odds of a guy being able to pull it off are small, and the odds of this guy being able to pull it off are non-existent.
Not necessarily because I would be afraid for my safety, but because here is this weird dude sexualizing me in this completely non-sexual environment.
It could maybe be done in a non-creepy way. Maybe. But the odds of a guy being able to pull it off are small, and the odds of this guy being able to pull it off are non-existent.
51
Oh, and completely agree about the issue of complementing a specific body part rather than a general "hey beautiful" type compliment. The former is more overtly about sex, the latter less so.
52
@ Peter
I think you misunderstood me. When I receive an unsolicited compliment, even a creepy one about a specific body part (which I get often because I am 23, hot, and have DDs) I kindly laugh it off and continue on my way.
The point I was trying to make is that you are a misogynist dickhole.
Hope that clears everything up.
Cheers!
I think you misunderstood me. When I receive an unsolicited compliment, even a creepy one about a specific body part (which I get often because I am 23, hot, and have DDs) I kindly laugh it off and continue on my way.
The point I was trying to make is that you are a misogynist dickhole.
Hope that clears everything up.
Cheers!
53
Yeah, I have a pretty good standard for creepy vs. non-creepy comments. If my boyfriend's mom (OK, not my boyfriend's mom-Big Pun's lewd as the day is long) or one of my students could say it without offense, it's fair game for anyone, even middle-aged grocery store lurkers. If it would be creepy coming from them, it's probably over the line of innocent compliment. Examples of acceptable comments: You look nice today. That's a great dress. You're just lovely. Examples of unacceptable comments: Nice cans! Come back to the deli counter with me so I can show you my appreciation. I'd pay a dolla to make you holla. I think it's a pretty good tool, no?
54
Roy might be the free riding homeless guy on the bus who couldn't shut up about how beautiful my fiance's eyes are.
Creepy is creepy.
Creepy is creepy.
55
Hm, @41, Peter, you're much more dramatically an ass than I've seen crawl out of these slog mass-posts, and that's saying something, since we always get a few loonies. I'm afraid that, disappointing as it no doubt is to your superior ego if not your libido, straight women aren't really warming up to such a fuckwad's opinion of them.
56
Fnarf, you have at least 30 years before anyone might doubt your virility. Have you seen you? That said, you may compliment my anything, any time.
57
Here's a better way to look at it, Roy. If some dude your age repeated any of the "compliments" you're doling out to your barely-legal neice or daughter, would you consider it harmless or would you want to kick the guy's ass?
Unless you have already established a personal relationship with a woman, commenting on sexualized body parts (tits, ass, hips, legs, lips, etc) is a big NO. Random dude in the grocery store or at the bus stop can tell me things like "you have a nice smile", "I like your scarf", "you look wonderful", etc. Same random dude canNOT tell me "you have beautiful hips" without me reaching for pepper spray.
And before sommeone gets all pissypants about me being defensive, YOU try living a carefree life in society knowing full well that there are people walking around who would like nothing better than to rape you/grope you/beat you/kill you/keep you in a pit in a basement just because of your gender. I don't think about it much, but when some whackadoodle guy in his 50s at the bus stop who dots his i's with circles and writes letters on legal pads to sex columnists tells me I have beautiful hips, I make sure I have one hand on pepper spray and the other on my cell phone. It's JUST FUCKING CREEPY.
Unless you have already established a personal relationship with a woman, commenting on sexualized body parts (tits, ass, hips, legs, lips, etc) is a big NO. Random dude in the grocery store or at the bus stop can tell me things like "you have a nice smile", "I like your scarf", "you look wonderful", etc. Same random dude canNOT tell me "you have beautiful hips" without me reaching for pepper spray.
And before sommeone gets all pissypants about me being defensive, YOU try living a carefree life in society knowing full well that there are people walking around who would like nothing better than to rape you/grope you/beat you/kill you/keep you in a pit in a basement just because of your gender. I don't think about it much, but when some whackadoodle guy in his 50s at the bus stop who dots his i's with circles and writes letters on legal pads to sex columnists tells me I have beautiful hips, I make sure I have one hand on pepper spray and the other on my cell phone. It's JUST FUCKING CREEPY.
58
There ain't a thing wrong with your anything, Aislinn, and you know it. Why, I'd [thwack] [thwack] [thwack] oh, hi, Mrs. Fnarf, I didn't see you come in; I was, uh, just, uh, nothing, uh, getting ready to sleep in the toolshed again tonight, dear.
59
Wait a minute -- Jessica, now you're telling me this Roy character has a barely-legal niece or daughter? Is she HOTT? DAMN. Get over here, girl, I'll bet she is FYNE! Oh, girl, you got your high beams on! Ooh! Uh-huh! [thud]
Yes sir. I'm sorry, sir. No, sir, I don't know what came over me. No, sir, I did not realize that it took you three hours to stack all those peaches. Yes, I will pay for everything, sir.
Yes sir. I'm sorry, sir. No, sir, I don't know what came over me. No, sir, I did not realize that it took you three hours to stack all those peaches. Yes, I will pay for everything, sir.
60
I think Roy might be misinterpreting complete disinterest as defensiveness.
People tend to shop when they're just off work, and they're tired, and they'd rather be at home with a bucket of chicken and a season of their favourite tv show on dvd. When people are in an environment that is inherently social, like a nightclub, rejecting a well-intentioned compliment without so much as a smile or polite acknowledgment is pretty rude. But at a grocery store, at my mechanics, at the dentists - I'm just thinking about getting done and getting home.
People tend to shop when they're just off work, and they're tired, and they'd rather be at home with a bucket of chicken and a season of their favourite tv show on dvd. When people are in an environment that is inherently social, like a nightclub, rejecting a well-intentioned compliment without so much as a smile or polite acknowledgment is pretty rude. But at a grocery store, at my mechanics, at the dentists - I'm just thinking about getting done and getting home.
61
Fnarf, after this thread I can only assume every produce department manager in the greater Seattle area shudders when they see you head towards them as they preeptively protect their honeydews.
62
I used to love grocery shopping. I can't tell if Fnarf's commentary made me love it more or less...Probably more.
63
@53: You just want an excuse to tell that story about my mom advising against anal sex in the hot tub.
64
My husband just said, "Why doesn't he just say 'your hips give me a boner' and be done with it."
I knew I married him for a reason.
I knew I married him for a reason.
65
the one and ONLY time it was totally OK for someone to tell me that I had a "nice big booty" was when the rapper AMG told me that. But, other than him or Snoop, it's super uncool, creepy, and what everyone else said.
66
@ 41 & 45 (Peter) your lesbian friends KNOW YOU, know you are gay, & know you don't want anything to do with their icky, icky, tits & pussies, so of course they're not "threatened" by you. Dumbass. You can be as hot as you want, & good thing you are, 'cause that snotty stinky attitude sure is unattractive. Who are you to judge if all the women in Seattle are ugly? YOU'RE GAY! You don't find women attractive. So put away what you think of our icky bits, 'cause we don't care. & BTW, as someone who appreciates girls, you are wrong, Ellen Forney is in Seattle, & she's a hottie. There seem to be plenty of hot girls rock bands.
What younger straight women you might be catching attitude from, don't know you, & therefore can't know the revulsion their genitals cause you. You pitch them vague negativity because of them havin' tits & pussies. Since most gay men of my experience project charm & warm wit to the gay-sympatico, these girls are likely picking up your hostility & misreading it for potential rape-level interest in those icky parts of theirs. 'cause that's what you live with when you're female.
There is still misogyny runnin' rampant in the land of the gay boys. Too bad. It's so tired. I had a circle of catty queens who used to love telling "fish" jokes & trail off just as I walked into the room. One day I got mad enough that I just said, for all your talk about pussies, you all seem to forget you crawled outta one of those..& gave them a graphic repeat of Margaret Cho's take on childbirth. Really graphic. For about 5 solid minutes. It ends with - "And then, her pussy exploded!" *miming picking up bits of pussy from around the room* The jokes ended after that.
Get over your gay hot woman-hating self, buddy, 'cause THAT'S ugly. Your lesbian pals nor your gayness do not invalidate you from being a sexist oinker.
More...
What younger straight women you might be catching attitude from, don't know you, & therefore can't know the revulsion their genitals cause you. You pitch them vague negativity because of them havin' tits & pussies. Since most gay men of my experience project charm & warm wit to the gay-sympatico, these girls are likely picking up your hostility & misreading it for potential rape-level interest in those icky parts of theirs. 'cause that's what you live with when you're female.
There is still misogyny runnin' rampant in the land of the gay boys. Too bad. It's so tired. I had a circle of catty queens who used to love telling "fish" jokes & trail off just as I walked into the room. One day I got mad enough that I just said, for all your talk about pussies, you all seem to forget you crawled outta one of those..& gave them a graphic repeat of Margaret Cho's take on childbirth. Really graphic. For about 5 solid minutes. It ends with - "And then, her pussy exploded!" *miming picking up bits of pussy from around the room* The jokes ended after that.
Get over your gay hot woman-hating self, buddy, 'cause THAT'S ugly. Your lesbian pals nor your gayness do not invalidate you from being a sexist oinker.
67
@ 41 & 45 (Peter) your lesbian friends KNOW YOU, know you are gay, & know you don't want anything to do with their icky, icky, tits & pussies, so of course they're not "threatened" by you. Dumbass. You can be as hot as you want, & good thing you are, 'cause that snotty stinky attitude sure is unattractive. Who are you to judge if all the women in Seattle are ugly? YOU'RE GAY! You don't find women attractive. So put away what you think of our icky bits, 'cause we don't care. & BTW, as someone who appreciates girls, you are wrong, Ellen Forney is in Seattle, & she's a hottie. There seem to be plenty of hot girls rock bands.
What younger straight women you might be catching attitude from, don't know you, & therefore can't know the revulsion their genitals cause you. You pitch them vague negativity because of them havin' tits & pussies. Since most gay men of my experience project charm & warm wit to the gay-sympatico, these girls are likely picking up your hostility & misreading it for potential rape-level interest in those icky parts of theirs. 'cause that's what you live with when you're female.
There is still misogyny runnin' rampant in the land of the gay boys. Too bad. It's so tired. I had a circle of catty queens who used to love telling "fish" jokes & trail off just as I walked into the room. One day I got mad enough that I just said, for all your talk about pussies, you all seem to forget you crawled outta one of those..& gave them a graphic repeat of Margaret Cho's take on childbirth. Really graphic. For about 5 solid minutes. It ends with - "And then, her pussy exploded!" *miming picking up bits of pussy from around the room* The jokes ended after that.
Get over your gay hot woman-hating self, buddy, 'cause THAT'S ugly. Your lesbian pals nor your gayness do not invalidate you from being a sexist oinker.
More...
What younger straight women you might be catching attitude from, don't know you, & therefore can't know the revulsion their genitals cause you. You pitch them vague negativity because of them havin' tits & pussies. Since most gay men of my experience project charm & warm wit to the gay-sympatico, these girls are likely picking up your hostility & misreading it for potential rape-level interest in those icky parts of theirs. 'cause that's what you live with when you're female.
There is still misogyny runnin' rampant in the land of the gay boys. Too bad. It's so tired. I had a circle of catty queens who used to love telling "fish" jokes & trail off just as I walked into the room. One day I got mad enough that I just said, for all your talk about pussies, you all seem to forget you crawled outta one of those..& gave them a graphic repeat of Margaret Cho's take on childbirth. Really graphic. For about 5 solid minutes. It ends with - "And then, her pussy exploded!" *miming picking up bits of pussy from around the room* The jokes ended after that.
Get over your gay hot woman-hating self, buddy, 'cause THAT'S ugly. Your lesbian pals nor your gayness do not invalidate you from being a sexist oinker.
68
Oops, sorry for the double post! It's 'cause I'm double mad!!
Oh yeah, & Roy - NEVER A BODY PART. Wanna give a nice, general, non-creepy compliment? To a stranger? I only think that's good if you've already caught someone's eye, & definitely your whole attitude projected has got to be neutral, & hanging back. Sadly, even a too-friendly grin or lurch in the compliment-ee's direction can be seen as off. Just something generic with a quick smile - nice car, nice jacket, nice jeans, good haircut, great glasses, if said right, can fill in for nice legs, great hair, pretty eyes. As well as emphasizing that person's taste, like mentioned above. & if you're at all innocently flirting, the flirtee will at that point say something back. In most cases, they stare down their nose & walk away. Try a diner, waitresses have to flirt for tips. But keep things general.
Oh yeah, & Roy - NEVER A BODY PART. Wanna give a nice, general, non-creepy compliment? To a stranger? I only think that's good if you've already caught someone's eye, & definitely your whole attitude projected has got to be neutral, & hanging back. Sadly, even a too-friendly grin or lurch in the compliment-ee's direction can be seen as off. Just something generic with a quick smile - nice car, nice jacket, nice jeans, good haircut, great glasses, if said right, can fill in for nice legs, great hair, pretty eyes. As well as emphasizing that person's taste, like mentioned above. & if you're at all innocently flirting, the flirtee will at that point say something back. In most cases, they stare down their nose & walk away. Try a diner, waitresses have to flirt for tips. But keep things general.
70
Just imagine, or let straight men imagine being complimented or hit on by gay men.
It's the end of the world. If they were able to compare this feeling to the feeling women get when men do it to them, I think their understanding of the affects of their comments would be much much different.
Enough said.
It's the end of the world. If they were able to compare this feeling to the feeling women get when men do it to them, I think their understanding of the affects of their comments would be much much different.
Enough said.
72
roy..
i rarely harsh out on somebody. and you've prolly gotten it by now..but if you've been doing this for 30 years now and still don't have a clue ( ..and you're married to boot.) then it bears repeating ..
DUDE for reals.. unless you're gay ( and gay mens know better and do better..) .. just nod, wink and move on.
seriously.. say no more.. just don't.
i rarely harsh out on somebody. and you've prolly gotten it by now..but if you've been doing this for 30 years now and still don't have a clue ( ..and you're married to boot.) then it bears repeating ..
DUDE for reals.. unless you're gay ( and gay mens know better and do better..) .. just nod, wink and move on.
seriously.. say no more.. just don't.
73
compliments i've given to unknown women in the last week:
"cool sweater"
"your hair looks nice" (to someone i know a bit)
"cool bag"
"nice bike. did you grow up with that bike?" ("maybe!")
there. you see how easy that is?
"cool sweater"
"your hair looks nice" (to someone i know a bit)
"cool bag"
"nice bike. did you grow up with that bike?" ("maybe!")
there. you see how easy that is?
74
#70
Sorry to spoil your passe so old construct, but, in Seattle straight guys get hit on all the time by gay men. It is part of a MODERN and COOL city.
Decorum says they smile and they thanks and that your attention is a compliment, but, no thanks.
Happens that way all the time in mixed bars, on the street, in parks, dog walking, shopping at QFC, and in low key social settings. All the time.
Reading these posts, there are a lot of social misfits, and, it seems they don't even know it. Gay men have a lot to offer if they might listen. We have taken the cruise, polite conversation and good mannered social mingling to much better levels.
Life teaches too that most guys will swing a little, so all that defensive shit is so out of date. Most men in Seattle seem know that, the trade types who are matter of fact, are all over the place... and can be a lot of fun.
Sorry to spoil your passe so old construct, but, in Seattle straight guys get hit on all the time by gay men. It is part of a MODERN and COOL city.
Decorum says they smile and they thanks and that your attention is a compliment, but, no thanks.
Happens that way all the time in mixed bars, on the street, in parks, dog walking, shopping at QFC, and in low key social settings. All the time.
Reading these posts, there are a lot of social misfits, and, it seems they don't even know it. Gay men have a lot to offer if they might listen. We have taken the cruise, polite conversation and good mannered social mingling to much better levels.
Life teaches too that most guys will swing a little, so all that defensive shit is so out of date. Most men in Seattle seem know that, the trade types who are matter of fact, are all over the place... and can be a lot of fun.
75
#71
Great, I fee so complimented, such a healthy horny guy-to-guy response. But my ass isn't big, just nicely rounded & trim, very hairy hairy, some pimples, and rarely fucked.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Great, I fee so complimented, such a healthy horny guy-to-guy response. But my ass isn't big, just nicely rounded & trim, very hairy hairy, some pimples, and rarely fucked.
Thanks, but no thanks.
77
Ladies, get a grip. Many of you gripe about being sexualized. News flash: Men have been sexualizing women at first glance since, well, forever. Most men have been socialized such that they don't blurt this out to your face, but some haven't.
And yes Roy, saying someone's hips are nice is creepy. A woman's hips are the way they are for the purpose of bearing a child. The fact (as mentioned previously) that you place a circle over each i in your letter like a little girl would only makes you seem like one deranged, unsocialized freak who is a potential danger to children everywhere. Sorry buddy.
And yes Roy, saying someone's hips are nice is creepy. A woman's hips are the way they are for the purpose of bearing a child. The fact (as mentioned previously) that you place a circle over each i in your letter like a little girl would only makes you seem like one deranged, unsocialized freak who is a potential danger to children everywhere. Sorry buddy.
78
I remember my ex-husband making almost the same complaint, many years ago. ("Why shouldn't a man be able to say, "You have nice breasts," to a woman at a bus stop?")
He claimed he was just being gallant when he tried to flirt with my friends. Without exception, they found it creepy, and soon preferred to get together ANYWHERE but at my place. Roy's wife must be as clueless as he is, and they deserve each other.
He claimed he was just being gallant when he tried to flirt with my friends. Without exception, they found it creepy, and soon preferred to get together ANYWHERE but at my place. Roy's wife must be as clueless as he is, and they deserve each other.
80
OK, let me understand. Commenters here are very sensitive/defensive/righteous about not offending women by commenting lewdly or inappropriately about body parts, but on the political threads here on Slog it's okey dokey when folks said/tolerated/laughed at/failed to denounce comments like these:
--let's put a stick of dynamite up Hillary's vagina
-ooooh she's conceding - she ought to gets on all fours so Barack can give it to her doggy style! She should stick her ass in the air so Barack can lick it!
--my how big her ass looked in a certain photo on a runway
-- hey Barack's caucus is bigger than hers.....
Autofill: pot/kettle; glass/houses; irony/urban hipsters/clueless/ Beavis/Butthead.
Yawn. In sum, while being so rightetous and correctly condemning others for their poor taste and loserdom, um, try to have just a smidgeon of cluefulness and self awareness. OK? Thank you.
Unity y'all.
--let's put a stick of dynamite up Hillary's vagina
-ooooh she's conceding - she ought to gets on all fours so Barack can give it to her doggy style! She should stick her ass in the air so Barack can lick it!
--my how big her ass looked in a certain photo on a runway
-- hey Barack's caucus is bigger than hers.....
Autofill: pot/kettle; glass/houses; irony/urban hipsters/clueless/ Beavis/Butthead.
Yawn. In sum, while being so rightetous and correctly condemning others for their poor taste and loserdom, um, try to have just a smidgeon of cluefulness and self awareness. OK? Thank you.
Unity y'all.
82
Oh, come on, what's creepy about appreciating a feature?
I can't tell you how many times--JUST THIS WEEK--that I've wanted to walk up to the same guy and go "FANTASTIC ass! Where can I get some?" *
But being a guy and not knowing if he's gay or not, it doesn't seem like so much a compliment as asking for trouble.
*His being a total humpmonster in all other regards doesn't hurt, either.
But, man.
That ass.
I can't tell you how many times--JUST THIS WEEK--that I've wanted to walk up to the same guy and go "FANTASTIC ass! Where can I get some?" *
But being a guy and not knowing if he's gay or not, it doesn't seem like so much a compliment as asking for trouble.
*His being a total humpmonster in all other regards doesn't hurt, either.
But, man.
That ass.
83
this is DEFINITELY going in next year's SLOG calendar! fnarf, lara, jessica, aislinn, are you with me on this?
84
Wow. This stirred up a lot more on both sides than I might have expected.
Some random thoughts: If I ever complimented someone on his or her skin, I'd surely be wondering how I could achieve such luminescence myself, and would soon follow the compliment with questions about water intake, diet, antioxidants, and exercise.
I save any other "body part" compliments for people I know well, and with whom such rapport has been established.
BUT . . . The wall I always run into with this is the fact that most days, I would KILL to be objectified, to be looked upon as the sum of my (potential) fulfillment of the the appetites of the onlooker. I realize that this may be a luxury, a function of male privilege; being of the objectifying class, I've never experienced the downside, perhaps, of being on the receiving end of that gaze. But we are all objects as well as subjects, and we all--I think--encounter other organisms and apprehend them, at least partially, as objects which we, as subjects, may theoretically put to use. If we're properly capable of empathy, we quickly realize that those we encounter are also subjects with their own interests to fulfill; if we're properly socialized, we choose very carefully how we express our interests and observations.
All of which is to say that, yeah, Roy's being kinda creepy. But he doesn't exactly strike me as dangerous, just socially inept. We in the liberal/gay/arts/(post)punk/transgressive/indie community (and whatever permutation I may have neglected to mention) have gotten a lot of mileage from the notion that some normative standards are there to be violated, but we're right quick to enforce our own when it suits us. That's probably well and good, but the resulting environment of shifting norms can make it hard to know which social graces are still in play, or where one reasonably draws the line between impulse and speech.
I guess I have no argument here. I understand perfectly well why people were up in arms regarding Roy's letter, but some of the replies had me feeling a little sympathy for the ol' lech, and it got me thinking (clearly not a good idea). As you were. :)
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Some random thoughts: If I ever complimented someone on his or her skin, I'd surely be wondering how I could achieve such luminescence myself, and would soon follow the compliment with questions about water intake, diet, antioxidants, and exercise.
I save any other "body part" compliments for people I know well, and with whom such rapport has been established.
BUT . . . The wall I always run into with this is the fact that most days, I would KILL to be objectified, to be looked upon as the sum of my (potential) fulfillment of the the appetites of the onlooker. I realize that this may be a luxury, a function of male privilege; being of the objectifying class, I've never experienced the downside, perhaps, of being on the receiving end of that gaze. But we are all objects as well as subjects, and we all--I think--encounter other organisms and apprehend them, at least partially, as objects which we, as subjects, may theoretically put to use. If we're properly capable of empathy, we quickly realize that those we encounter are also subjects with their own interests to fulfill; if we're properly socialized, we choose very carefully how we express our interests and observations.
All of which is to say that, yeah, Roy's being kinda creepy. But he doesn't exactly strike me as dangerous, just socially inept. We in the liberal/gay/arts/(post)punk/transgressive/indie community (and whatever permutation I may have neglected to mention) have gotten a lot of mileage from the notion that some normative standards are there to be violated, but we're right quick to enforce our own when it suits us. That's probably well and good, but the resulting environment of shifting norms can make it hard to know which social graces are still in play, or where one reasonably draws the line between impulse and speech.
I guess I have no argument here. I understand perfectly well why people were up in arms regarding Roy's letter, but some of the replies had me feeling a little sympathy for the ol' lech, and it got me thinking (clearly not a good idea). As you were. :)
86
I've been stalked, had my ass groped by strange men while DJing, was sexually assaulted by a masseuse at a "legitimate" spa who grabbed my hand and put it on his penis, etc... All my girl friends have similar creepy stories. So forgive us if being told we've got a great ass/legs/hips/anything by any man we're not dating fails to give us warm, validated feelings. If you think I'm hot, why not start a normal, non-threatening conversation with me that isn't about my looks?
Women shouldn't have to spell out for guys that when strange men approach them, there is often an element of fear for our physical safety that isn't there for guys when women compliment them. If you really don't get this, then you should, I don't know, read "I Blame the Patriarchy" or something.
Women shouldn't have to spell out for guys that when strange men approach them, there is often an element of fear for our physical safety that isn't there for guys when women compliment them. If you really don't get this, then you should, I don't know, read "I Blame the Patriarchy" or something.
87
Maybe he was the middle-aged gentleman who tastefully complimented my nipples at Green Lake one day.
I threw the shirt away as soon as I got home.
I threw the shirt away as soon as I got home.
88
Maggie @86 - I hope that venom wasn't directed at my comment, because I DO gt what you're saying. A boy's world is pretty much one ongoing threat of physical violence, but that threat starts drying up right about the time that it's really getting started for girls, and by the time we're men and women, the man's world is relatively benign (though some men, tempered as they are in violence, will PROVIDE the threat that will plague many, if not most, adult women).
But I always cringe at "shouldn't have to spell out" pronouncements, if only because they remind me of Christians, Natural Law advocates, and others who seem to believe that there's such a thing as a self-evident truth. Rules of engagement--any kind of rule, for any kind of engagement--are social constructs. If we know them and understand them, it's because they've been taught to us; if we fuck 'em up, well, they've obviously not been taught very well, and someone surely should have spelled it out. Maybe not by you, per se--why should you have to be anyone's teacher (let alone everyone's)?--but someone.
That said, there are certainly tools out there who don't take well to the lessons at hand. I think we can also agree that there are degrees of impropriety, including some play around the "line" that separates raffishness from churlishness.
But I always cringe at "shouldn't have to spell out" pronouncements, if only because they remind me of Christians, Natural Law advocates, and others who seem to believe that there's such a thing as a self-evident truth. Rules of engagement--any kind of rule, for any kind of engagement--are social constructs. If we know them and understand them, it's because they've been taught to us; if we fuck 'em up, well, they've obviously not been taught very well, and someone surely should have spelled it out. Maybe not by you, per se--why should you have to be anyone's teacher (let alone everyone's)?--but someone.
That said, there are certainly tools out there who don't take well to the lessons at hand. I think we can also agree that there are degrees of impropriety, including some play around the "line" that separates raffishness from churlishness.
89
the one and ONLY time it was totally OK for someone to tell me that I had a "nice big booty" was when the rapper AMG told me that
It's easy to see how some guys get confused when you read remarks like this. Basically, 65's attitude is that coming on to her makes you a creep- unless she thinks you are hot. It leaves enough leeway that confident guys might go for it and see what happens.
Personally, I negotiate these turbulent estrogen-laced waters by keeping my mouth shut and not complimenting anyone. I'm no rapper, yo.
It's easy to see how some guys get confused when you read remarks like this. Basically, 65's attitude is that coming on to her makes you a creep- unless she thinks you are hot. It leaves enough leeway that confident guys might go for it and see what happens.
Personally, I negotiate these turbulent estrogen-laced waters by keeping my mouth shut and not complimenting anyone. I'm no rapper, yo.
91
@74 ... if it wasn't for the gay men. My ego would be starving in this city.
And then the women just seem to follow.
Appropriate compliments to give to the opposite sex? "Nice tattoo!" I like tattoos, people who have tattoos really like tattoos. Face is ... ok. But you usually need to establish some rapport.
If you are going to compliment a body part, you need to build SOME semblence of trust and pretext and intentions. Friendly gestures can be ok, so long as you have trust. Unless it's an older woman who obviously puts effort into being fit, just be coy about it.
And then the women just seem to follow.
Appropriate compliments to give to the opposite sex? "Nice tattoo!" I like tattoos, people who have tattoos really like tattoos. Face is ... ok. But you usually need to establish some rapport.
If you are going to compliment a body part, you need to build SOME semblence of trust and pretext and intentions. Friendly gestures can be ok, so long as you have trust. Unless it's an older woman who obviously puts effort into being fit, just be coy about it.
92
HAHAHAH! oh Roy, you creepy old man. you confuse 'lecherous' with complimentary, and have kept it up for all 30 years of your fictitious marriage, no matter how ill-received your commentary is. people are constantly offended? but you've kept it up! well, i guess bathing in contempt is all worth it, eh? or you'd get a clue and STOP IT ALREADY, right?? so i'm sure that you're not just a social leper who is deaf to these unsubtle cues.
jessica - HA! :
"And before sommeone gets all pissypants about me being defensive, YOU try living a carefree life in society knowing full well that there are people walking around who would like nothing better than to rape you/grope you/beat you/kill you/keep you in a pit in a basement just because of your gender. I don't think about it much, but when some whackadoodle guy in his 50s at the bus stop who dots his i's with circles and writes letters on legal pads to sex columnists tells me I have beautiful hips, I make sure I have one hand on pepper spray and the other on my cell phone. It's JUST FUCKING CREEPY."
HILARIOUS! jessica for the win!
jessica - HA! :
"And before sommeone gets all pissypants about me being defensive, YOU try living a carefree life in society knowing full well that there are people walking around who would like nothing better than to rape you/grope you/beat you/kill you/keep you in a pit in a basement just because of your gender. I don't think about it much, but when some whackadoodle guy in his 50s at the bus stop who dots his i's with circles and writes letters on legal pads to sex columnists tells me I have beautiful hips, I make sure I have one hand on pepper spray and the other on my cell phone. It's JUST FUCKING CREEPY."
HILARIOUS! jessica for the win!
93
Women start life out going hey, no reason to be a bitch to someone who gave me a creepy compliment! Just turn them down with grace and charm! Then you try to do this in practice, and discover the reason they issue creepy compliments is because they are in fact creepy weirdos. All the nice response does is tell the creepy weirdo that you're a pushover who might just sleep with them if they keep harassing you, because it's too ungracious to forcefully say no.
95
Its just like I tell the girls at the office "I love the way your tits bounce when you type". Courtesy the muthafuckin Onion'.
NOW STOP?!?
NOW STOP?!?
96
If I am at the grocery store, I am there, solely to get my groceries. I am on a mission. One I rarely, enjoy. If a boy or a man, good looking or creepy, decided to blurt out I had nice hips, I would be, irritated but mostly, I'd be pissed. And I would STILL go about the business of getting my goddam groceries. So get the hell out of my way. And save the 'compliments' for your nice wife, Roy.
97
Maybe guys have thicker skin about this. I've been terribly flattered by guys who I don't find attractive in the least complimenting me on something.
I think it's nice to be noticed.
Oh...and did I mention his FABULOUS ass?
I think it's nice to be noticed.
Oh...and did I mention his FABULOUS ass?
98
Maybe ... I think Dan was looking for the double to be addressed standard here. Maybe many men wish they could be objectified and appreciated for the way in which they find women attractive. Maybe Roy's wife finds little issue with this, becaue it's Roy's WIFE. Not dismissing that men are disproportionately more threatening, I'm just saying.
99
@90: "Lest we forget, your first words to Terry were a creepy "compliment", Dan."
Yes, 90, but as Kerri said: "When people are in an environment that is inherently social, like a nightclub...." a well-intentioned compliment might be welcome. My first comment to Terry was a creepy compliment—potentially. But But we were in a location—Re-bar—where slightly creepy compliments were not necessarily unwelcome. And when Ginger said, "Say something to him!", the hot boy with the long hair and the huge mouth and the big eyes looked at me and smile/smirked in a "go for it" way. So I did. And so did he.
And lucky me.
Yes, 90, but as Kerri said: "When people are in an environment that is inherently social, like a nightclub...." a well-intentioned compliment might be welcome. My first comment to Terry was a creepy compliment—potentially. But But we were in a location—Re-bar—where slightly creepy compliments were not necessarily unwelcome. And when Ginger said, "Say something to him!", the hot boy with the long hair and the huge mouth and the big eyes looked at me and smile/smirked in a "go for it" way. So I did. And so did he.
And lucky me.
101
Good comments, and a lot to consider. I really hadn't been aware how frightening a simple comment like "nice ass" could be.
I hope my guy with the fab ass reads this and recognizes me (fat chance, we're only 1500 miles away from The Stranger) and knows I think he's just fucking stunning. I could just watch him walk all day ;-)
I hope my guy with the fab ass reads this and recognizes me (fat chance, we're only 1500 miles away from The Stranger) and knows I think he's just fucking stunning. I could just watch him walk all day ;-)
102
While I have to admit that Roy'scommenstare a little creepy, as is his olivious nature, I gotta say, only in Seattle do you find women so in fear fro their lives. I am not saying that lfe canbe a little harder for women in that regard, and I won't deny that every woman has a few incidents of the threatening nature. But in most of the world, most of the women I have necountered are not nearly so fearful and terrified of men as women in Seattle.
As a parallel, many people are terrified of terrorists and vote for the GWBs of the world. I choose not to be and live my life. I suggest some of you women try to stop living in such fear. A very small minority of men are any kind of threat to you, and just because someone says something a little out of line in a grocery store does not mean he is going to rape you. When Roy was young this was probably fairly common and the women just shrugged it off. Thankfully, we have progressed since then, but is living in fear a good place to be?
As a parallel, many people are terrified of terrorists and vote for the GWBs of the world. I choose not to be and live my life. I suggest some of you women try to stop living in such fear. A very small minority of men are any kind of threat to you, and just because someone says something a little out of line in a grocery store does not mean he is going to rape you. When Roy was young this was probably fairly common and the women just shrugged it off. Thankfully, we have progressed since then, but is living in fear a good place to be?
103
#s 16 & 38
Very true. I was speaking from my own experience. Actually, perhaps due to some low self esteem on my part, I am flattered when anyone finds me attractive, whether they be an "unattractive" woman, an "attractive" gay man, or someone's cat. I just wouldn't sleep with any of them...except. maybe the cat, but not in a sexual way.
This is probably why I am pishing 45 and am alone.
Very true. I was speaking from my own experience. Actually, perhaps due to some low self esteem on my part, I am flattered when anyone finds me attractive, whether they be an "unattractive" woman, an "attractive" gay man, or someone's cat. I just wouldn't sleep with any of them...except. maybe the cat, but not in a sexual way.
This is probably why I am pishing 45 and am alone.
104
vagina as currency, the cultural construct women are taught
vs.
cock as plaything full of pleasure and to be used over and over with a whole lot less fanfare and outside pressure
a lot of this discussion revolves around the two statements - two real differing views of sex and how we use our bodies for 50 years
the good compliment vs bad compliment is just a framework for deeper feelings - and the Puritans really fucked up female sexuality, seemingly forever
vs.
cock as plaything full of pleasure and to be used over and over with a whole lot less fanfare and outside pressure
a lot of this discussion revolves around the two statements - two real differing views of sex and how we use our bodies for 50 years
the good compliment vs bad compliment is just a framework for deeper feelings - and the Puritans really fucked up female sexuality, seemingly forever
105
Too many people have started out with a compliment and ended up taking advantage of me (or trying to.) So now when someone says something nice to me I wonder what they're after.
If anyone has seen my self-esteem, I seem to have lost it somewhere and would really like to get it back...
If anyone has seen my self-esteem, I seem to have lost it somewhere and would really like to get it back...
106
104, you make a good point. In this culture, women are taught to protect their sexuality, and that it is to be sought after, while men are taught that their sexuality is threatening and unwelcome and should be kept in check. Neither serves the respective gender well. Gay men must have it nice, as their sexuality is celebrated and welcome, but they are never taught that there is anything wrong with that.
You point out that a compliment from a man is unwelcome because it is putting forth their desire for sex. As has been pointed out above, a staight male would not take offense at the same compliment from a woman, even if she was unattractive.
Of course, any male in our culture should know this and act accordingly, but I can't understand why any woman feels the need to get all bent out of shape over it. I do agree that if you act graciously, it might encourage the guy, so a cold response would be advised, which is what Ron seems to be complaining about. But some of the anger and fear that has been expressed seems a bit over the top.
You point out that a compliment from a man is unwelcome because it is putting forth their desire for sex. As has been pointed out above, a staight male would not take offense at the same compliment from a woman, even if she was unattractive.
Of course, any male in our culture should know this and act accordingly, but I can't understand why any woman feels the need to get all bent out of shape over it. I do agree that if you act graciously, it might encourage the guy, so a cold response would be advised, which is what Ron seems to be complaining about. But some of the anger and fear that has been expressed seems a bit over the top.
107
The Language of Sex
A young man, a boy really, stands before the courtroom awaiting sentencing. He’s not guilty – not of anything important. His only crime is his innocence and naiveté. He wandered into someplace he shouldn’t have been. Got involved in something that he couldn’t handle. And now he stands here to be sentenced as an adult and pay adult punishment.
There is an outcry from the community. They say – look at his record, this is a small lapse in judgment. If you send him to prison, you will destroy him. He will become the target. He will be beaten and brutalized, slammed into a concrete wall while every foul smelling misfit in the prison takes a turn raping him with broom handles and diseased cocks. They will shove him to his knees and with homemade shanks at his throat he will gag as they cum in his mouth. In order to survive he will become the girlfriend of someone older, stronger. No safety in sleep, dragged from his bed to the showers while the guards watch or even participate.
The community cries out against sending this young boy into this hellhole. Yet our women – our little girls are born into it. And for them, there is no parole. No sanctuary, It is a life sentence.
We are prey to the hunters and even the language proves it. They do not make love or even have sex. They get some. Do her, screw, bang, shag, hump. She is not a person but a piece of ass, piece of tail, or some nooky.
Those words form our prison. Hold us hostage. Because the words are hostile.
A young man, a boy really, stands before the courtroom awaiting sentencing. He’s not guilty – not of anything important. His only crime is his innocence and naiveté. He wandered into someplace he shouldn’t have been. Got involved in something that he couldn’t handle. And now he stands here to be sentenced as an adult and pay adult punishment.
There is an outcry from the community. They say – look at his record, this is a small lapse in judgment. If you send him to prison, you will destroy him. He will become the target. He will be beaten and brutalized, slammed into a concrete wall while every foul smelling misfit in the prison takes a turn raping him with broom handles and diseased cocks. They will shove him to his knees and with homemade shanks at his throat he will gag as they cum in his mouth. In order to survive he will become the girlfriend of someone older, stronger. No safety in sleep, dragged from his bed to the showers while the guards watch or even participate.
The community cries out against sending this young boy into this hellhole. Yet our women – our little girls are born into it. And for them, there is no parole. No sanctuary, It is a life sentence.
We are prey to the hunters and even the language proves it. They do not make love or even have sex. They get some. Do her, screw, bang, shag, hump. She is not a person but a piece of ass, piece of tail, or some nooky.
Those words form our prison. Hold us hostage. Because the words are hostile.
109
I'm a professor, and I like to know the names of my students (and remember them pretty easily). Today, I greeted one of the male cashiers at my local bookstore by name. He came out from behind the counter (in spite of the long line of customers, being "the season" and all) and trailed after me, all over the store, even waiting for me when I went into the bathroom. I pretty much just had to leave the store to shake him. And I'm 49 years old! Does this ever end?
110
@102, most women go about their daily lives without really thinking through all this fear, but unless you live in podunkville you've been raised to have that extra awareness and concern. Most of the time it's just at the back of your mind; you don't think about why you won't walk down this street but would walk down that one, you just walk down the damn street and get to work.
But now someone has said something creepy/lecherous/disturbing to you. All your senses go on red alert. Is this a creepy Bundy type who will stuff you in a van? You look around you, noting exits and potential threats.
And most of the time it's nothing, those senses are unnecessary. You notice that creepy Roy here is with his wife and know that while there have been a couple of husband/wife murder/rape teams, they're rare and you can probably give him a tight smile and hurry away.
It's not that all these women are constantly terrified, they're trying to describe their response to a situation that is supposed to set them on medium-high alert.
But now someone has said something creepy/lecherous/disturbing to you. All your senses go on red alert. Is this a creepy Bundy type who will stuff you in a van? You look around you, noting exits and potential threats.
And most of the time it's nothing, those senses are unnecessary. You notice that creepy Roy here is with his wife and know that while there have been a couple of husband/wife murder/rape teams, they're rare and you can probably give him a tight smile and hurry away.
It's not that all these women are constantly terrified, they're trying to describe their response to a situation that is supposed to set them on medium-high alert.
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