Tuesday, November 25, 2008
Film Loving "Citizen Cane"
Posted by Paul Constant on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 6:00 PM
There's one type of movie review comment that drives me right up the fucking wall. Here are three examples, from my Twilight review:
Twilight was a very good movie, not much like the book but it was still very good. You seem to lack much of an imagination or take yourself so seriously that you cant let go and just enjoy something. I find that sad and think you need to loosen up a little and just enjoy things. Critics don't only need to love movies like citizen cane and it doesnt make you any less of a man or woman to admit you like something childish. Get past your pride.
Posted by At least Twilight was better than harry Potter Fat Ass on November 25, 2008 at 12:34 AM
I loved it. It's a guilty pleasure for a lot of people, get over yourselves people!
Posted by ok... on November 24, 2008 at 10:59 AM
Yeah...who made the rule that all ENTERTAINMENT has to be high-minded and thought-provoking? I enjoy reading a tense pre-teen makeout scene and then jumping my boyfriend. It brings back the ecstatic stupidity of my teen years, and what's more, reading those books kept me sane during the last 2 weeks of the election. Noam Chomsky has no such super-power. I plan on seeing and movie AND LIKING IT just to spite this vitriolic reviewer. (so there)*eye roll*
Posted by MLEemily on November 23, 2008 at 12:21 PM
And just to show that it's not all about me, in Film Intern Evan Stewart's excellent review of Wanted on DVD, this comment came up:
Isn't it alright for Hollywood to come out with some escapist cheesy action flick for people to laugh at and watch and enjoy every now and then?
I mean...you don't watch Wanted expecting to see oscar gold...you watch it for the action and the chance to laugh at it. Perhaps you've forgotten about all the other cheesy sci-fi esque action flicks that we still love to laugh at today.
Posted by Hunter on November 24, 2008 at 1:52 PM
Listen to me, people. It is true that I have been known to occasionally read Noam Chomsky and I have seen Citizen Kane twice, although I wouldn't put it in my top ten films of all time or anything. But two of my all-time favorite movies are The Rundown and Con Air. I also loved Bring it On, and I watched and adored just about all of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And here's the important part:
I am so sick of people apologizing for crap product by calling it "mindless entertainment." I love mindless entertainment. But I love good mindless entertainment. Twilight and Wanted are both bad pieces of mindless entertainment.
If you can't tell the difference between a movie that is money-grubbing shit and a movie that somebody, from the screenwriter on out to the actors, actually cared about, you are either A) a child or B) lowering your expectations to some pretty goddamned dismal levels. It's possible to overthink dumb entertainment—hell, Camille Paglia made a living out of it in the nineties—and it's possible to accidentally make something dumb and great (Showgirls.) But it's pretty easy to tell when something actually, really sucks.
And if you're going to try to excuse these films as "mindless entertainment," you are, as the first comment up there says, "Get(ting) past your pride." You're not giving your mind a break, you're reveling in your own stupidity. We are all better than this; we don't have to swallow this awful shit and smile and say "More, please." We can hold out for something just a little bit better, and appreciate that better thing when it comes along.
That is all.
1
Paul,
All this needless kerfuffle could have been avoided if you'd simply written in last week's Stranger that "Twilight fills a much-needed void." Write short and smart; live and learn.
All this needless kerfuffle could have been avoided if you'd simply written in last week's Stranger that "Twilight fills a much-needed void." Write short and smart; live and learn.
2
Everybody knows that Ernest Goes to Camp was, by far, the best of the Ernest movies.
3
Paul,
All this needless kerfuffle could have been avoided if you'd simply written in last week's Stranger "Let the right one in." Yes, I am on a mission.
All this needless kerfuffle could have been avoided if you'd simply written in last week's Stranger "Let the right one in." Yes, I am on a mission.
4
I have long been baffled by Hollywood's careless attitude towards decent story writing. There are funny and well scripted movies out there sometimes. And well written sci-fi. Smart movies that are also funny and entertaining. The Incredibles, for example, was a mindless kids movie. Yet it was also smart, witty, and funny as hell for adults too. But a lot of films just don't seem to care. And with millions of dollars to throw around, you'd think they could spare a few grand for a decent writer. A decent writer would be a drop in the bucket of the cost of any major film.
I refuse to sit there and be numbed by dazzling special effects when the plot makes no sense whatsoever, or the characters are utterly boring. Come on Hollywood. It doesn't cost all that much to hire a writer so the film isn't completely insulting.
I refuse to sit there and be numbed by dazzling special effects when the plot makes no sense whatsoever, or the characters are utterly boring. Come on Hollywood. It doesn't cost all that much to hire a writer so the film isn't completely insulting.
5
Alternatively, those in search of guilt-free mindless entertainment could refrain from reading movie reviews entirely. Then they wouldn't see any opinions that might upset them.
And everybody knows that the finest work of entertainment in the Jim Varney back catalog is Dr. Otto and the Riddle of the Gloom Beam.
And everybody knows that the finest work of entertainment in the Jim Varney back catalog is Dr. Otto and the Riddle of the Gloom Beam.
6
"fills a much-needed void", like how some people will dig a hole in order to fill another hole with the dirt from the hole they've just dug?
You are absolutely correct, Paul. If ever I feel a desperate need to waste $10 to laugh AT some "mindless entertainment", as opposed to laughing WITH some, say, mindFULL entertainment (which, in my mind is much the better use of my hard-earned cash), I'd still rather rent "Airplane!", or, "Caddyshack", or "Stripes" or "Blazing Saddles" - all deliberately, BRILLIANTLY "mindless" films, than a piece of shite, like the ones you mention.
And really, who the fuck gives a rat's tuchus about the opinion of anyone who actually professes to LIKE this drek? So far as I'm concerned, the phrase "get over yourself" and its variations are simply shorthand for "I'm too stupid to possess anything remotely resembling taste, and I resent you for making that apparent".
You are absolutely correct, Paul. If ever I feel a desperate need to waste $10 to laugh AT some "mindless entertainment", as opposed to laughing WITH some, say, mindFULL entertainment (which, in my mind is much the better use of my hard-earned cash), I'd still rather rent "Airplane!", or, "Caddyshack", or "Stripes" or "Blazing Saddles" - all deliberately, BRILLIANTLY "mindless" films, than a piece of shite, like the ones you mention.
And really, who the fuck gives a rat's tuchus about the opinion of anyone who actually professes to LIKE this drek? So far as I'm concerned, the phrase "get over yourself" and its variations are simply shorthand for "I'm too stupid to possess anything remotely resembling taste, and I resent you for making that apparent".
7
yo we're in agreement tht harry potter is totally sweet though right?
8
Movie critics aren't supposed to judge movies based on whether or not you will like them. They judge them based on whether or not they are good art. Twilight is not.
9
Paul, compare these with the comments on David Schmader's review of Sutra. If a critic finds something boring, then you're not sophisticated enough for the diehard fans. If a critic finds it cheap and sloppy, the fans call you stuck up. But neither kind of fans give very good reasons to like the object of their adoration.
10
I read somewhere that Ernest Goes to Jail was "A Very Funny Movie"
11
you loved "bring it on"? What the hell is wrong with you?
Maybe I just hate it because my little sister watched it EVERY DAY FOR A FUCKING MONTH!
Maybe I just hate it because my little sister watched it EVERY DAY FOR A FUCKING MONTH!
12
Right on Paul! Citizen Kane is a great film, I own it on DVD, but have watched it maybe twice in the last ten years.
I have seen The Ghost and Mr. Chicken with Don Knotts over 100 times (about 2.5 times since I was born) and still think it's one of the funniest movies of all time.
There are dumb movies that are well made and fun to watch and were probably fun to make (Con Air or The Rock), and there are just plain dumb movies that are poorly written, poorly directed, and poorly acted by usually good actors who seemed to lose interested in what they are doing on screen (The Avengers).
I have seen The Ghost and Mr. Chicken with Don Knotts over 100 times (about 2.5 times since I was born) and still think it's one of the funniest movies of all time.
There are dumb movies that are well made and fun to watch and were probably fun to make (Con Air or The Rock), and there are just plain dumb movies that are poorly written, poorly directed, and poorly acted by usually good actors who seemed to lose interested in what they are doing on screen (The Avengers).
13
Paul, once you wondered in print if you were a "man". Your natural response to "Twilight" does affirm that you are at least not a 14-year old girl...
14
Some movies are so dumb they're actually funny (most 1950s sci-fi) while some movies are so dumb they're a complete waste of time (Attack of the Killer Tomatoes, for example, which tried to be in the so-dumb-it's-funny category but failed). It takes a few functioning brain cells to tell the difference.
Elswinger @12: Glad I'm not the only Don Knotts fan out there. It takes talent to play a character who is a complete moron but still likable ("Barney Fife", "Mr Furley", "President"--oh, wait, that last one was Ronald Reagan...)
Elswinger @12: Glad I'm not the only Don Knotts fan out there. It takes talent to play a character who is a complete moron but still likable ("Barney Fife", "Mr Furley", "President"--oh, wait, that last one was Ronald Reagan...)
15
Con Air, Yes!
"Put... the bunny... back in the box."
(blam blam blam or something.)
"I told you to put the bunny back in the box."
I saw it at my one and only drive in and have some great memories (has a lot to do with the girl I was with, I will grant you)
"Put... the bunny... back in the box."
(blam blam blam or something.)
"I told you to put the bunny back in the box."
I saw it at my one and only drive in and have some great memories (has a lot to do with the girl I was with, I will grant you)
16
con air?!
17
@6:
From http://www.econ.uiuc.edu/~roger/gaps.htm…
"An amusing exercise is to type "fills a much needed gap in the literature" into your favorite search engine and note how many publishers use this phrase as a token of esteem, rather than dismissal."
From http://www.econ.uiuc.edu/~roger/gaps.htm…
"An amusing exercise is to type "fills a much needed gap in the literature" into your favorite search engine and note how many publishers use this phrase as a token of esteem, rather than dismissal."
18
the problem with most critics (sorry, you included) is their desire to believe that their opinions are somehow objective.
the surest sign of a critic's lack of self-confidence and lack of faith in their own beliefs is the need to hammer back at their critics.
you'll know you finally made it as a critic when you grin when folks disagree with you instead of hastily typing a response.
don't worry, you'll get there :-)
the surest sign of a critic's lack of self-confidence and lack of faith in their own beliefs is the need to hammer back at their critics.
you'll know you finally made it as a critic when you grin when folks disagree with you instead of hastily typing a response.
don't worry, you'll get there :-)
19
con air? more like con shit!
20
You'll be glad to hear they just green-lighted the sequel to Twilight.
Yup, the second book is GO!
Yup, the second book is GO!
21
Well said, Mr. Constant.
22
@18. A little condescending, don't you think? No way does Paul think his opinion is objective. He simply is annoyed, reasonably, that so many people object to the value of having opinions--by which I mean informed, considered, well-articulated, subjective but fair-minded opinions.
23
I fully agree.
Not all critics are elitists. They just look to separate the wheat from the chaff. That's why they have the capacity like "good mindless entertainment" as opposed to plain old "mindless entertainment."
Not all critics are elitists. They just look to separate the wheat from the chaff. That's why they have the capacity like "good mindless entertainment" as opposed to plain old "mindless entertainment."
24
The only good thing about Twilight is how Robert Pattinson has been running his mouth lately about how he basically believes that Stephenie Meyer is a vacant-eyed crazy person who believes on some level that she is Bella Swan.
25
It's like everyone at The Stranger traded meds right after the election. You're all writing like crazy people.
It's not attractive.
It's not attractive.
26
"We are all better than this; we don't have to swallow this awful shit and smile and say 'More, please.' "
Right on!
Right on!
27
elswinger @ 12: Thanks, now I have the theme to "The Ghost and Mr. Chicken" stuck in my head.
28
if it is merely mindless entertainment, why is so much money spent on making it?
29
You can't fight the fan-boy/girl wave.
The mid-puberty girls and washed up middle aged cat ladies will love }wilight, and defend it as the last good blah blah blah.
But, the last 3 star wars movies sucked, the ewoks were stupid, and jar jar binks is one awesome black stereotype.
Star wars fanboys would kill me rather than face the truth.
The mid-puberty girls and washed up middle aged cat ladies will love }wilight, and defend it as the last good blah blah blah.
But, the last 3 star wars movies sucked, the ewoks were stupid, and jar jar binks is one awesome black stereotype.
Star wars fanboys would kill me rather than face the truth.
30
@29: I fucking love Star Wars and will freely and gleefully agree with you-- the "first" trilogy should never have been made. To quote the LOTR nerd in Clerks 2: "My shitty acting is ruining the saga."
I can't wait for the Twilight fangirls to finally get around to Buffy and have their minds summarily blown by the UTTER AWESOME that is Spike.
I can't wait for the Twilight fangirls to finally get around to Buffy and have their minds summarily blown by the UTTER AWESOME that is Spike.
31
Darcy @24: Do you have links to this? I think I need to see this. A good laugh at the end of the day is always welcome.
33
Citizen Cane: Christmas-themed Orson Welles porn flick.
34
This is a vote for Con Air.
35
@31/32: Unoriginal Andrew beat me to it! He also gave an interview at some point about how he read the books and then decided to basically play Edward as a self-hating misanthrope with "issues" related to his being 108 and still a virgin. I'm not really inclined to read the novels, but if anyone could convince me, it'd be Rpattz.
36
I'd rather revel in my own stupidity (I'd prefer to call it a situational lack of taste) than pretend I don't like something that I honestly enjoy. I am aware that the books aren't really good (I haven't seen the movie yet) by most sensible standards, and yet, I enjoyed reading them. I enjoyed reading them quite a bit. I don't aspire to aesthetic puritanism: I will take my pleasures where I find them, even if it's in the trash.
37
Which is better: Bring It On, or Harold and Kumar Go To White Castle?
Because they're both pretty effing awesome, guys.
Because they're both pretty effing awesome, guys.
38
Freakshow!!!
39
The Rundown is a fucking great movie. Lots of action and lots of comedy.
Plus, who doesn't like The Rock?
Plus, who doesn't like The Rock?
40
@36 I'm with you.
41
There's no shame in liking something you know is trash. Just don't expect a critic to treat it as anything but.
42
i like turtles
43
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44
@30: I pretty much hate everything Joss Whedon touches.
I do have a soft spot for any in-house Troma film though. Those are so bad that they go full circle to being good.
I do have a soft spot for any in-house Troma film though. Those are so bad that they go full circle to being good.
45
@37: Harold and Kumar, of course.
@44: I don't know... I'm pretty sure my life isn't any better for seeing Sargeant Kabukiman, NYPD. It is better for seeing Cannibal the Musical, though, but that wasn't in-house Troma.
@44: I don't know... I'm pretty sure my life isn't any better for seeing Sargeant Kabukiman, NYPD. It is better for seeing Cannibal the Musical, though, but that wasn't in-house Troma.
46
Twilight was straight up the funniest movie I have seen all year. Pure comedy gold. People need to relax and look forward to Twilight: The Opera.
47
As a confused east coast transplant its nice to see someone who actually has an opinion about something; call a spade a spade and don't let being passive aggressive justify bad music/media/film etc.
48
@41 + @47 = absolute truth.
49
@37: I hated Harold and Kumar and love Bring it on. I know, I know, everyone loved Harold and Kumar. I watched it and maybe laughed 1 time. And it was more of a har har. Bring it on, however, is fucking hilarious.
And in the vein of silly (but good) cheerleading movies, I recommend:
Sugar and Spice and But, I'm a cheerleader. Both are amazing.
And in the vein of silly (but good) cheerleading movies, I recommend:
Sugar and Spice and But, I'm a cheerleader. Both are amazing.
50
Dreck is in the eye of the beholder. You're crapping on someone for liking movies you don't like, yet it's ok for you to like Con Air, a worthless piece of shit, (in my opinion).
I have it easy; I pretty much hate 99.9% of everything that mainstream Hollywood studios have produced since 1980...almost ALL of it is dreck and nearly any film of value in the last 28 years has been developed and produced independently from the major studios.
Citizen Kane needs to be seen more than twice to appreciate its greatness and it SHOULD be in your top 10.
I have it easy; I pretty much hate 99.9% of everything that mainstream Hollywood studios have produced since 1980...almost ALL of it is dreck and nearly any film of value in the last 28 years has been developed and produced independently from the major studios.
Citizen Kane needs to be seen more than twice to appreciate its greatness and it SHOULD be in your top 10.
51
My favorite part of Citizen Cane is where he croaks out: "Rosebutt".
52
I think it needs to be understood that when people consider a trashy, mindless movie "terrible," they often genuinely don't enjoy it and are not "pretending." It's not a conspiracy.
Anyway, thanks, Paul, for articulating what I keep trying to explain to people when I say I don't like their favourite movie and they act like I strangled their only child.
And I loved Con-Air when it came out and I still recall it with fondness, but I watched it last month and it hurt me. How about Die Hard? Obvious choice, but it's genuinely good and fun, and not a soul in the world can argue it's "intellectual" or "elitist."
Anyway, thanks, Paul, for articulating what I keep trying to explain to people when I say I don't like their favourite movie and they act like I strangled their only child.
And I loved Con-Air when it came out and I still recall it with fondness, but I watched it last month and it hurt me. How about Die Hard? Obvious choice, but it's genuinely good and fun, and not a soul in the world can argue it's "intellectual" or "elitist."
53
But I think we can all agree that Harry Potter is totes awesome, right?
54
Wow. I was actually afraid to open this comments thread this morning, but I'm shocked to see that it's not just everyone calling me a douchebag.
Some random points:
You don't have to LIKE The Rundown/Con Air/etc. (although Gloria @52: I haven't actually seen Con Air in a while because I'm afraid it might hurt now) but you can't watch those movies and then watch Wanted and tell me they're the same thing. Nobody in Wanted gives a shit. Nobody in Twilight gives a shit, either, and it's not necessarily something one can articulate, but you can tell, as a human being, when nobody gives a shit. And when you're the only one who gives a shit when you're watching a movie, it's a sad and lonely thing.
And @18: There is a certain point in which things become objective. There is a line between goodness and badness in entertainment that is real and true. Frankly, not every opinion on an entertainment is valid, because some opinions belong to people who have something invested in the endeavor being a success (e.g. People who claim Twilight is a brilliant, well-constructed movie.)
It's a whole other thing to revel in the badness of something while knowing it's bad, and much has been written about that—there was a great article in The Believer years ago about So Bad It's Good (SoBIG) that everyone who's interested in this subject should read—and that's a whole different topic.
Some random points:
You don't have to LIKE The Rundown/Con Air/etc. (although Gloria @52: I haven't actually seen Con Air in a while because I'm afraid it might hurt now) but you can't watch those movies and then watch Wanted and tell me they're the same thing. Nobody in Wanted gives a shit. Nobody in Twilight gives a shit, either, and it's not necessarily something one can articulate, but you can tell, as a human being, when nobody gives a shit. And when you're the only one who gives a shit when you're watching a movie, it's a sad and lonely thing.
And @18: There is a certain point in which things become objective. There is a line between goodness and badness in entertainment that is real and true. Frankly, not every opinion on an entertainment is valid, because some opinions belong to people who have something invested in the endeavor being a success (e.g. People who claim Twilight is a brilliant, well-constructed movie.)
It's a whole other thing to revel in the badness of something while knowing it's bad, and much has been written about that—there was a great article in The Believer years ago about So Bad It's Good (SoBIG) that everyone who's interested in this subject should read—and that's a whole different topic.
55
So what is the category of movies where the picture's really dumb, and everybody involved knows it, and they just go with it because it's fun? Here I am specifically thinking of The Fifth Element.
56
You're right that you can tell when nobody in a production gives a shit, but I fear that a critic unable to articulate why might be in the category of opinions that are not valid. Or if valid, at least, not useful.
Thousands in the audience probably thought "nobody in this thing gives a shit" but most of them couldn't pinpoint what makes them think it. What they need is somebody who is able to articulate it.
Thousands in the audience probably thought "nobody in this thing gives a shit" but most of them couldn't pinpoint what makes them think it. What they need is somebody who is able to articulate it.
57
#55 -- got that right. You can almost see a cloud of "Why should I care, nobody else does" dust swirling around Bruce Willis as he says "Negative, I am a meat popsicle" in that film.
58
I agree for the most part that there's good mindless entertainment and bad mindless entertainment. But is the determination of whether something is good or bad subjective or objective?
I love car chases. I love any movie scenes with car chases. I loved the first two Transporter movies and I'm looking forward to going to the third. But the second was, for the most part, completely terrible, mindless entertainment. But I still love it. So it seems to me it's a subjective point of view and people will love and hate mindless entertainment regardless of how many rotten tomato review it's received. Complaining about it one way or another is just as pointless as trying to explain (the completely objective reasons) why The Fifth Element was better than Episodes 1, 2, or 3 to a Star Wars fan.
I love car chases. I love any movie scenes with car chases. I loved the first two Transporter movies and I'm looking forward to going to the third. But the second was, for the most part, completely terrible, mindless entertainment. But I still love it. So it seems to me it's a subjective point of view and people will love and hate mindless entertainment regardless of how many rotten tomato review it's received. Complaining about it one way or another is just as pointless as trying to explain (the completely objective reasons) why The Fifth Element was better than Episodes 1, 2, or 3 to a Star Wars fan.
59
@57: No, no, no. I'm not talking about movies where nobody gives a shit, like Coyote Ugly.
In The Fifth Element nobody gives a shit about the plot, but they are way into everything else. I'm imagining a meeting where the director says, "What if we just stopped the movie for like five minutes and had it be a giant blue alien lady singing an aria?" And the rest of the creative team responds, "HELL YES." That's why The Fifth Element is awesome.
In The Fifth Element nobody gives a shit about the plot, but they are way into everything else. I'm imagining a meeting where the director says, "What if we just stopped the movie for like five minutes and had it be a giant blue alien lady singing an aria?" And the rest of the creative team responds, "HELL YES." That's why The Fifth Element is awesome.
60
you're no douchebag. you're actually one of the best critics i've read. we'll have to agree to disagree about objectivity, but all in all - keep up the great work!
61
Hallelujah, Paul.
62
WHATEVER!!! Twilight is a beautiful piece of art, sorry you just have a black, black heart and can't realize true onscreen love when you see it! You're dead inside!
Thanks for sticking up for me.
Thanks for sticking up for me.
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