Tuesday, November 25, 2008
Religion Hard Times for Magic Underpants, Inc.
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 2:52 PM
The Mormon church's involvement with Prop 8—pushing it, funding it—a "P.R. fiasco," says the Salt Lake Tribune.
In some minds, the so-called "Mormon moment" heralded at the start of 2008 has stopped short.Just 10 months after the death of LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley, who spent nearly 70 years burnishing his church's public image, goodwill toward Mormonism that culminated during the 2002 Winter Olympic Games seems to have faded in a haze of misunderstanding and outright hostility. Mean-spirited critiques of Mormonism during Mitt Romney's unsuccessful presidential campaign were followed by persistent news-media reports linking Latter-day Saints to the FLDS polygamous sect raided by Texas authorities.
Now, angry opponents of Proposition 8 are demonstrating at Mormon temples, accusing the church of being anti-gay.
Gee, wherever did we get that impression? Oh, right:
When your biggest negatives are that people think you're pushy, rich, secretive, weird, and hell-bent on imposing your seemingly cultish way of life on them, the last thing you should do is use gobs of money to force your views on millions of others. It's not clear what the Mormons were thinking, but in the process, they may have made a few friends on the religious right—friends who still think the Mormons are a cult, mind you (even the Mormon's evangelical "allies" have this to say about them: "Our theological differences with Mormonism are, frankly, unbridgeable")—but they've just convinced millions of other Americans that they're hateful heavy-handed bigots.
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3
More more more attention paid to the mormon hate movement... Why not spend our time discussing the equal rights movement?
I mean, we get it Dan!
Productivity is far greater than complaining and finger-pointing...
Ideas, please.
I mean, we get it Dan!
Productivity is far greater than complaining and finger-pointing...
Ideas, please.
4
@3 in a zero sum game, if you undermine your opponents you yourself are strengthened. Though i don't know if this is a zero sum game.
5
The Sixth Circuit yeaterday ruled for the first time ever that the Vatican itself can be held liable in sexual-abuse cases as "employer" of its U.S. bishops who demonstrably failed to halt the abuse. Their tortious acts created liability all the way to the sovereign state that signed their paychecks. American jurisprudence is chipping away at the wall between aggrieved citizens and religious institutions. Holy cow.
6
And the indignant backlash from the "we're not THOSE Mormons!" Mormons will begin any moment now.
NEWS FLASH: If you belong to a group that actively promotes the disenfranchisement, dehumanization, and demonization of of another group of people, particularly one that is doing no harm to you, or to anyone you know for that matter - and you aren't doing everything in your power to publicly oppose the policies, words, and actions of your leaders, then you ARE "one of THOSE" people.
Seriously, any Mormon who wants to prove they're NOT "one of THOSE Mormons" only has to stand up, and publicly denounce the actions of the LDS elders - it's that simple. You have to chose which side you're on in this fight - and when it comes to standing up for basic human civil rights, there's no option to straddle the fence. If you believe the people who speak on your behalf are wrong about this, you have to let them know, in no uncertain terms. If you can't do that, then quite frankly, you have no right to complain about being included among those who are currently on the receiving end of the anger and condemnation this action has engendered.
NEWS FLASH: If you belong to a group that actively promotes the disenfranchisement, dehumanization, and demonization of of another group of people, particularly one that is doing no harm to you, or to anyone you know for that matter - and you aren't doing everything in your power to publicly oppose the policies, words, and actions of your leaders, then you ARE "one of THOSE" people.
Seriously, any Mormon who wants to prove they're NOT "one of THOSE Mormons" only has to stand up, and publicly denounce the actions of the LDS elders - it's that simple. You have to chose which side you're on in this fight - and when it comes to standing up for basic human civil rights, there's no option to straddle the fence. If you believe the people who speak on your behalf are wrong about this, you have to let them know, in no uncertain terms. If you can't do that, then quite frankly, you have no right to complain about being included among those who are currently on the receiving end of the anger and condemnation this action has engendered.
7
"Christians" have a problem with any religion that believes that there were "prophets" after Jesus Christ, with the exception of Jerry Fallwell or Pat Robertson.
8
talking about how much these people suck will do nothing but reiterate what everyone already knows.
we need to be talking about what the next step of our movement is.
we need to be talking about what the next step of our movement is.
9
It shouldn't be too hard to smash any bonds formed between the Morons, Cathoholics, and Fundotards based on their shared hatred of us Gheys.
They're bound to be anti-Moron Chick Tracts out there; simply re-print a zillion, hand them out all-around then watch the fur fly.
They're bound to be anti-Moron Chick Tracts out there; simply re-print a zillion, hand them out all-around then watch the fur fly.
10
Now is not the time to pretend that religious organizations really just want the freedom to practice their religion in peace and that religious practitioners are just kindly people who believe in civil rights and constitutional protections of everyone's right to live their lives as they choose.
Now is the time to hammer home the point, as loudly and as often as possible, that these religions are doing everything they can to abridge your rights and any rights that don't align with their dogma. It's time to shed the brightest light on this fact until religions are so cowed and shamed by public opinion that they are, in fact, what they pretend to be, benevolent socities solely concerned with the morals of those who choose to join their religion freely, in full knowledge of what they are getting themselves into.
When that happens, Dan, please can it. Until then, bray away. I'll help.
Now is the time to hammer home the point, as loudly and as often as possible, that these religions are doing everything they can to abridge your rights and any rights that don't align with their dogma. It's time to shed the brightest light on this fact until religions are so cowed and shamed by public opinion that they are, in fact, what they pretend to be, benevolent socities solely concerned with the morals of those who choose to join their religion freely, in full knowledge of what they are getting themselves into.
When that happens, Dan, please can it. Until then, bray away. I'll help.
11
The LDS has managed to replace Scientology in most people's mind as most abusive cult, thanks to their backing of Prop 8.
Way to go, Bushies!
Way to go, Bushies!
12
We should think of the children; the gay mormon ones. The clockwork orange style reprogramming they inflict on their own kids is horrifying.
14
I don't know for sure, but I suspect the Salt Lake Tribune is neither pro-gay nor anti-Morman.
They're just 'shining the light'. If the LDS looks bad under neutral scrutiny - it's not the gays' fault, even if it does benefit their argument.
They're just 'shining the light'. If the LDS looks bad under neutral scrutiny - it's not the gays' fault, even if it does benefit their argument.
16
The more Savage wails and whines the better for Mormons.
Makes Romney more acceptable to Conservatives.
Improves Evangelicals attitudes toward Mormons.
Don't stop yapping, Dan!
(as if you could)
Makes Romney more acceptable to Conservatives.
Improves Evangelicals attitudes toward Mormons.
Don't stop yapping, Dan!
(as if you could)
17
Wishful thinking, Dan.
Prop 8 is building bridges between Mormons and Evangelicals.
http://cityweekly.blogspot.com/2008/11/p…
Read'em and weep.
Prop 8 is building bridges between Mormons and Evangelicals.
http://cityweekly.blogspot.com/2008/11/p…
Read'em and weep.
18
The Evangelicals are getting together with the Mormons?! OH MY FUCKING GOD! ...wish there was a rolleyes smiley for right here.
20
#15 - I read the history of the Trib on Wikipedia.
Apparently it criticized Mormons for a while in the early 1900's, but now belongs to some out-of-state conglomerate and is no longer seen as 'anti-Mormom'. I could find no reference to being pro-gay.
Since you think I need a clue, can you give me some? Where can I find data on the Trib's anti-Mormon, pro-gay agenda?
Thanks for the help.
Apparently it criticized Mormons for a while in the early 1900's, but now belongs to some out-of-state conglomerate and is no longer seen as 'anti-Mormom'. I could find no reference to being pro-gay.
Since you think I need a clue, can you give me some? Where can I find data on the Trib's anti-Mormon, pro-gay agenda?
Thanks for the help.
21
Dear Clueless @20 and @14
Read the Tribune blogs.
It is the only place in North America (outside Dan's recent infatuation on SLOG) where raw Middle East style HATE based on religion is fashionable and flourishes openly.
(what exactly leads you to 'suspect' anything about Trib and do you get all your 'facts' from wiki?)
Read the Tribune blogs.
It is the only place in North America (outside Dan's recent infatuation on SLOG) where raw Middle East style HATE based on religion is fashionable and flourishes openly.
(what exactly leads you to 'suspect' anything about Trib and do you get all your 'facts' from wiki?)
22
All the energy directed to anti-Mormon rhetoric and hate may make some feel good in the short term but it sets back progress in the long term.
Currently there is precious little MLK in the anti-Prop 8 camp but plenty of Bull Conner.
Gains won from judges in the face of public opinion are bitter and short term.
Lincoln knew you had to bring the nation along with you.
Harry Blackmun didn't care.
We now have a black President.
But abortion remains an oozing open wound because RoevWade shortcircuited the process of forming a national consensus.
MA and CT and CA gains given by elitist judges against the expressed desire of the citizenry infuriate the public and set back the advance of Gay Civil Rights.
Cheaters never prosper.
Don't be tempted by shortcuts like hate and anger.
They lead to the Dark Side.
Currently there is precious little MLK in the anti-Prop 8 camp but plenty of Bull Conner.
Gains won from judges in the face of public opinion are bitter and short term.
Lincoln knew you had to bring the nation along with you.
Harry Blackmun didn't care.
We now have a black President.
But abortion remains an oozing open wound because RoevWade shortcircuited the process of forming a national consensus.
MA and CT and CA gains given by elitist judges against the expressed desire of the citizenry infuriate the public and set back the advance of Gay Civil Rights.
Cheaters never prosper.
Don't be tempted by shortcuts like hate and anger.
They lead to the Dark Side.
23
Religion is inherently disordered. It is the natural enemy of true freedom. It is an active enemy of knowledge. It remains intentionally ignorant of it's own history. It adheres foremost to myths and superstitions.
24
I grew up in Salt Lake as a leftie pro-gay athiest, moved to the Bay Area for a couple years, recently moved back to Salt Lake. My thoughts: the Trib used to be slightly anti-Mormon, but mostly pro reason. Now it's mostly weak-kneed and poorly written, so I only read NYT.
But more importantly: I very seldom jump to the defense of individual Mormons, and never defend The Church (as it's nearly universally referred to here); but y'all should know that there's dissent among the troops. The most vocal and effective organization protesting the church (IMHO) has been Mormon parents who love, accept and support their gay kids. They are very upset with the leadership, and are concerned that The Church's hateful stance is driving their kids away from the one true church.
I think the future is very bright. It will be a long and ugly war, but I see justice making gains every day.
But more importantly: I very seldom jump to the defense of individual Mormons, and never defend The Church (as it's nearly universally referred to here); but y'all should know that there's dissent among the troops. The most vocal and effective organization protesting the church (IMHO) has been Mormon parents who love, accept and support their gay kids. They are very upset with the leadership, and are concerned that The Church's hateful stance is driving their kids away from the one true church.
I think the future is very bright. It will be a long and ugly war, but I see justice making gains every day.
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