Monday, November 24, 2008
Religion They Didn't See It Coming
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:20 AM
Finance a successful attack on a small but vocal minority group...
...and win shitloads of brand new enemies—totally free!
Before Prop 8, I don't think most homos really gave two shits about the Mormon church. We knew it sucked to be born gay and raised Mormon—and that's how it works, people, in that born/raised order—but that's true for most faiths that gay people are born into. Most of us have the sense to flee gay-hating faiths; a few of us are stupid enough to succumb to the bullshit and self-hatred that are, for gay people, the cost of admission to a host of imaginary heavens. But before Prop 8 we were content to leave Mormons the hell alone so long as they left us—those of us lucky to be raised in some other faith, or lucky enough to have escaped with our sanity intact—the hell alone. The old deal worked like this: the LDS could torment poor Mormon gay kids and pathetic, closeted adult gay Mormons, but it had to leave openly gay grownups who aren't Mormon or are no longer Mormon at peace. But, nope, they couldn't leave us the hell alone and now things have changed for Magic Underpants, Inc.
UPDATE: And, yes, this matters—even Margaret Cho's silly little fauxlk song matters. Magic Underpants, Inc., doesn't like scrutiny or being mocked. And they like it less than other faiths, since much of what passes for Mormon beliefs is 1. easily disproved (more easily disproved than the tenets of other, older faiths), and 2. completely ridiculous. And the more other Christians know about about what the Mormons believe, the less inclined they are to view Mormons as Christians. Best of luck in 2012, Mitt.
Video via Queerty.
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2
I've learned everything I need to know about Mormons by growing up in Boise, the thousands of times I've watched Angels in America disc one, and the actions taken for Prop 8.
I find them very entertaining when they're in the closet, popping Valium in wee fistfuls or not waiting more than three-three quarters hours for anyone. But they are my enemy.
I find them very entertaining when they're in the closet, popping Valium in wee fistfuls or not waiting more than three-three quarters hours for anyone. But they are my enemy.
3
10 years ago, the only mormons around were the "elders" trying to get me to come to their church for free pizza and prayer sessions.
Now they're everywhere. The mormons seriously got their breed on.
They used to be friendly and harmless (if strange) but now they're getting more vocal, unfriendly, and demanding.
Now they're everywhere. The mormons seriously got their breed on.
They used to be friendly and harmless (if strange) but now they're getting more vocal, unfriendly, and demanding.
4
Yawn.
We get it... you hate Mormons. And now you're preaching hate which is exactly what you're so pissed at the LDS church for. Way to be hypocritical.
Next topic, please.
We get it... you hate Mormons. And now you're preaching hate which is exactly what you're so pissed at the LDS church for. Way to be hypocritical.
Next topic, please.
5
At some point somebody is going to have to start reminding Dan Savage of how he mocked the anti-WTO and anti-war protesters for their giant puppets and confusing banners and bad songs and whatnot. Seems like lots of Stranger writers used to think street protests were stupid. But maybe that's ancient history.
6
No, no, Candice. The moral of the story is this: you can expect tolerance so long as you are tolerant yourself. The intolerant will not be tolerated.
7
Why this sudden bewilderment, this confusion?
(How serious people’s faces have become.)
Why are the streets and squares emptying so rapidly,
everyone going home lost in thought?
Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven’t come.
And some of our men just in from the border say
there are no barbarians any longer.
Now what’s going to happen to us without barbarians?
Those people were a kind of solution.
-Cavafy
(How serious people’s faces have become.)
Why are the streets and squares emptying so rapidly,
everyone going home lost in thought?
Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven’t come.
And some of our men just in from the border say
there are no barbarians any longer.
Now what’s going to happen to us without barbarians?
Those people were a kind of solution.
-Cavafy
8
That song is nice and all, but you do not want to get into a folk-singer showdown with the Mormon Church. When it comes to fervently strummed, earnest-but-not-very-skillful folk singing, even the gays cannot hope to match their firepower. They have legions of youth pastors armed with acoustic guitars and they're not afraid to use them. Nobody wins in that kind of battle.
9
Am I totally lame because I just got a little star struck?!
I mean Dan Savage just responded directly to me. Even if we do disagree...
I've said it before and I'll say it again... lumping all Mormons together in this whole Prop 8 debacle isn't going to make your point. My in-laws are Mormon and they thought me having my gay best friend as my "man-of-honor" was awesome. Believe it or not, some Mormons actually respect people.
I mean Dan Savage just responded directly to me. Even if we do disagree...
I've said it before and I'll say it again... lumping all Mormons together in this whole Prop 8 debacle isn't going to make your point. My in-laws are Mormon and they thought me having my gay best friend as my "man-of-honor" was awesome. Believe it or not, some Mormons actually respect people.
11
@6
No, no, Dan. The moral of the story is this: you can expect tolerance so long as you are tolerant yourself. The intolerant will not be tolerated.
This is disgusting. I'm all for gay marriage but I definitely don't want to be associated with garbage like this.
No, no, Dan. The moral of the story is this: you can expect tolerance so long as you are tolerant yourself. The intolerant will not be tolerated.
This is disgusting. I'm all for gay marriage but I definitely don't want to be associated with garbage like this.
13
@9 - then get your "tolerant" mormon friends to do the fuck something about the intolerant mormon leadership. otherwise, by being members of the church and following along with the bigotry they are supporting and perpetuating the bigotry. yes. they. are.
14
You need to have another look at Martin Luther King, Jr.'s playbook. He didn't attack the white bigots; he didn't need to. He kept his eye on the prize, and let the bigots reveal themselves for what they were. Promote your rights, don't attack those who take them away. You will NEVER get what you want if you don't learn that. You are painting the Mormons as the victims here, which is really, really stupid.
An ad that says "my gay partner of twenty years died in the hospital, and I was not allowed to visit him. I was not allowed to attend the funeral, and our home of twenty years was taken from me" would accomplish a thousand times more than this crap.
An ad that says "my gay partner of twenty years died in the hospital, and I was not allowed to visit him. I was not allowed to attend the funeral, and our home of twenty years was taken from me" would accomplish a thousand times more than this crap.
16
The first step in a war that you will win is to stop playing defense and start playing offense.
Minimize disruption and chaos on your side - project disruption and chaos on their side.
Attack where they think they're safe, change tactics over time, and make it obvious you own their territory.
Minimize disruption and chaos on your side - project disruption and chaos on their side.
Attack where they think they're safe, change tactics over time, and make it obvious you own their territory.
17
We need more protest songs against Radical Religious Extremists that are attempting to hi-jack America. As The Civil Right Movement of this century, (the Gay push for Civil Equality) it's time once again to sing, march, and get out there.
19
hey dan
tolerant?
pot... kettle... black...
oh, and some days you claim to be a 'journalist' and when it's convenient, you claim to be 'just an asshole...
man, I gotta get a job like yours
overpaid gasbag shitstirrer
tolerant?
pot... kettle... black...
oh, and some days you claim to be a 'journalist' and when it's convenient, you claim to be 'just an asshole...
man, I gotta get a job like yours
overpaid gasbag shitstirrer
20
I guess Marlee Ginter apologized, since she's no longer blowing goats. Why isn't the Stranger parading her apology in public like Vercingetorix at Caesar's triumph?
21
never saw it coming?!
the level of overblown self-importance implied in that is staggering.
oh, and my question for you Danny boy, is "when did the left lose it's moral compass?"
the level of overblown self-importance implied in that is staggering.
oh, and my question for you Danny boy, is "when did the left lose it's moral compass?"
22
Look, gays have been treated like shit forever, as we all know. One girl in my small high school transferred over the rumor that she and another girl were seen in the bathroom together, and given the nickname "sticky fingers". If a group tells its normally-does-everything-its-overlords-say congregation to get in the lives of people who want nothing to do with that group, don't expect a lie-down-quietly response. They fucked with the wrong people this time, and they are getting it right back. The '60s civil rights people banded together to get change, and teh gayz are doing the same. Unless you are preaching taking away rights, what is it to you or your church. I may not be a total ELCA Lutheran anymore, but that synod has been on the "accept and love" bandwagon for a long time, unlike the Missouri and Wisconsin synods. So, the ACTUAL moral of the story is, once you start fucking with someone and their rights, be prepared to get it back. People just don't sit on street corners and wait for the cops to come and get them anymore. Teh gayz are organized in their communications, have the drive and money to respond to these actions, and a large network of like-minded straight people to support them. The mormons dumped a bunch of cash in, and now they are getting repercussions. Don't like it? Move to Saudi Arabia.
23
I thought maybe that was Margaret Cho, because she's the only Asian woman comedian I've ever heard of, so then I felt like a racist.
Thanks a lot.
Thanks a lot.
24
@19
Get a clue. Or a life. "pot meet kettle." Really now. Are you serious? Are you not even listening to a word he has said? Mr. Savage makes his argument and presents it well. He even addressed the very idea that he is being hypcritical the very second he began supporting this kind of protest.
I mean, did you notice when this began? It took a LOT of this kind of crap being thrown AT the GBLT crowd, and for it to succeed, for us to throw down the gauntlet and say "fuck it, we've had enough." If they had not attacked our basic rights we would not be doing this. If this were a mere discussion, with nothing on the line, we would be calmly protesting like we always have. But I'm sorry- that is not the case. We are fighting to be treated as equals here- and nothing short of physical violence is hypocritical.
Maybe if we "cast the first stone" you could use that really inane cliche, but the Mormon Church did this long before we have, and in an offensive manner to strip the rights of a minority group that does not affect, or ever desire to interact at all with, them. We are defending ourselves and I'm sick and fucking tired of hearing morons like you call us terrible hypocrites for it.
Get a clue. Or a life. "pot meet kettle." Really now. Are you serious? Are you not even listening to a word he has said? Mr. Savage makes his argument and presents it well. He even addressed the very idea that he is being hypcritical the very second he began supporting this kind of protest.
I mean, did you notice when this began? It took a LOT of this kind of crap being thrown AT the GBLT crowd, and for it to succeed, for us to throw down the gauntlet and say "fuck it, we've had enough." If they had not attacked our basic rights we would not be doing this. If this were a mere discussion, with nothing on the line, we would be calmly protesting like we always have. But I'm sorry- that is not the case. We are fighting to be treated as equals here- and nothing short of physical violence is hypocritical.
Maybe if we "cast the first stone" you could use that really inane cliche, but the Mormon Church did this long before we have, and in an offensive manner to strip the rights of a minority group that does not affect, or ever desire to interact at all with, them. We are defending ourselves and I'm sick and fucking tired of hearing morons like you call us terrible hypocrites for it.
25
I totally thought that was Marlee Ginter, singing an apology to Dan. That is what happened, right? 'Cuz now she's a fine journalist, and not blowing goats?
26
@22 do you want results or repercussions? rights or revenge?
as @14 points out, this isn't anything like the 60s.
the hypocrisy here is just unbelievable. it's almost as if there's an unconscious desire to keep losing. more fun to just hate, I suppose.
as @14 points out, this isn't anything like the 60s.
the hypocrisy here is just unbelievable. it's almost as if there's an unconscious desire to keep losing. more fun to just hate, I suppose.
27
@24, I'll put you down for one repercussion and one revenge.
You're losing even the people that support your cause on this one - if you can't win over Stranger commentators how are you going convince that older and more religious demographic?
It is pure hypocrisy. It is completely intolerant.
You're losing even the people that support your cause on this one - if you can't win over Stranger commentators how are you going convince that older and more religious demographic?
It is pure hypocrisy. It is completely intolerant.
28
If the mormons would've kept their bigotry to themselves, this wouldn't be happening, would it? When you organize a concerted effort to promote your side of a political movement, expect to be thoroughly scrutinized and roundly criticized by the opposition.
However, I would caution that your tone is becoming overwhelmingly negative and more focused on lashing out at those who've wronged you, instead of actually, you know, promoting gay rights. Stuff like this may satiate your anger, but in the end is it really going to change anyone's minds?
However, I would caution that your tone is becoming overwhelmingly negative and more focused on lashing out at those who've wronged you, instead of actually, you know, promoting gay rights. Stuff like this may satiate your anger, but in the end is it really going to change anyone's minds?
29
whatever,
What proof do you have that we're losing people that support the cause?
Also, when an oppressed minority suffers more oppression because of the actions of another group, should it always be tolerant of the offending group's beliefs? Because if you believe that, I'm really curious how you think the Jews should have responded to the Nazi Party in the 1930's and 1940's, or should respond to Neo-Nazism now.
What proof do you have that we're losing people that support the cause?
Also, when an oppressed minority suffers more oppression because of the actions of another group, should it always be tolerant of the offending group's beliefs? Because if you believe that, I'm really curious how you think the Jews should have responded to the Nazi Party in the 1930's and 1940's, or should respond to Neo-Nazism now.
30
Can money really buy a proposition? If you believe that, then you have to also believe that money bought Barack the presidency. You should probably just accept that, at this point in time, most voters aren't ready to accept gay marriage. Of course, it always helps to have a group of people that you can actually point a finger at to blame, but that's probably not the case here.
31
@29 certainly I don't have proof, just offering my opinion. Who knows, maybe this doesn't change opinions but fires up the base.
I definitely want to see marriage, on the federal level, as soon as possible.
Singing songs about wanting the other side to suffer just doesn't seem to be the right way to do that.
Bringing up Nazis in any sort of message board debate is just so ridiculous. Yeah, dude, I didn't like Margaret's song so I must be a Nazi sympathizer, isn't that your real question?
I think we're making progress without needing to resort to violence or war or genocide. Thanks.
I definitely want to see marriage, on the federal level, as soon as possible.
Singing songs about wanting the other side to suffer just doesn't seem to be the right way to do that.
Bringing up Nazis in any sort of message board debate is just so ridiculous. Yeah, dude, I didn't like Margaret's song so I must be a Nazi sympathizer, isn't that your real question?
I think we're making progress without needing to resort to violence or war or genocide. Thanks.
32
Whatever,
OK, where is the big mormon ad blitz refuting the statements made by Dan and every other group protesting them, then? Let them defend the actions of the cult, er, church. Let the grand prophet stand up and say that they did, in fact, NOT tell their flock to donate huge sums of money to strip away a right. The impetus is not on the hapless homos, it is on the moping mormons. They are not the oppressed. They have the cash, clearly. There is no hypocrisy, only reaction. OK, whatever, it is now your turn. After being allowed to legally bind in a ceremony between free people, your right has been taken away, financed by the radical fringe of unrepentant (insert bunk religion here). Don't you think you'd be ready to fight back?
OK, where is the big mormon ad blitz refuting the statements made by Dan and every other group protesting them, then? Let them defend the actions of the cult, er, church. Let the grand prophet stand up and say that they did, in fact, NOT tell their flock to donate huge sums of money to strip away a right. The impetus is not on the hapless homos, it is on the moping mormons. They are not the oppressed. They have the cash, clearly. There is no hypocrisy, only reaction. OK, whatever, it is now your turn. After being allowed to legally bind in a ceremony between free people, your right has been taken away, financed by the radical fringe of unrepentant (insert bunk religion here). Don't you think you'd be ready to fight back?
33
For those of you who think that there are "tolerant" mormons and that not all mormons are the same and that we should be nice to mormons and that further, we shouldn't be protesting mormons because such and such and blah blah blah...
You're clueless about how mormonism works and you don't really understand the dynamic at play here.
I don't necessarily argue that these protests are going to be successful at changing the hearts and minds of faithful mormons, or even that they will be the deciding factor that will bring about gay marriage. These protests have value in their ability to unify the gay community and to publicize the ridiculousness of the mormon community telling the world what "traditional" marriage is and is not.
If mormons want anything, they desperately want to be liked. They want to feel like they belong to the Club of the religious. These protests are uncomfortable for them because it puts them in a poor light and exposes them for their weirdness in ways they don't like.
Further, for the so-called tolerant and liberal mormons, it makes them extremely uncomfortable because they keep wanting to tell their fundamentalist friends that gay people are safe and sane and just like us. This makes it harder for liberal mormons to play both sides, and they squirm. That's a good thing, actually, because moderate mormons do nothing more than pacify their own insecurities and are enablers to fundamentalism.
There's no middle ground with the core philosophy of mormonism, and you can't hope it into a better world view. Authoritarian religions, which mormonism is, are incompatible with a world view of minority rights.
So, keep the protests going, which will eventually evolve into better and more focused plans. The gays have come a long way since Stonewall, and we don't need the advice of mormon sympathizers to tell us how to make them less uncomfortable.
More...
You're clueless about how mormonism works and you don't really understand the dynamic at play here.
I don't necessarily argue that these protests are going to be successful at changing the hearts and minds of faithful mormons, or even that they will be the deciding factor that will bring about gay marriage. These protests have value in their ability to unify the gay community and to publicize the ridiculousness of the mormon community telling the world what "traditional" marriage is and is not.
If mormons want anything, they desperately want to be liked. They want to feel like they belong to the Club of the religious. These protests are uncomfortable for them because it puts them in a poor light and exposes them for their weirdness in ways they don't like.
Further, for the so-called tolerant and liberal mormons, it makes them extremely uncomfortable because they keep wanting to tell their fundamentalist friends that gay people are safe and sane and just like us. This makes it harder for liberal mormons to play both sides, and they squirm. That's a good thing, actually, because moderate mormons do nothing more than pacify their own insecurities and are enablers to fundamentalism.
There's no middle ground with the core philosophy of mormonism, and you can't hope it into a better world view. Authoritarian religions, which mormonism is, are incompatible with a world view of minority rights.
So, keep the protests going, which will eventually evolve into better and more focused plans. The gays have come a long way since Stonewall, and we don't need the advice of mormon sympathizers to tell us how to make them less uncomfortable.
35
whatever,
So if it is just your opinion that we are losing support, and not a fact, just don't state it as a fact.
No, my intent was not to paint you as a Nazi sympathizer, and certainly not do so because you didn't like the song (which I didn't even refer to, or like myself) but to point out that some things should not be tolerated. In my opinion, your simply saying that bringing up certain topics is "ridiculous", or saying that "this isn't anything like the 60s" without concretely addressing the arguments or elaborating on your statements with facts smacks of the very intolerance you say you avow, or at the very least a lack of intellectual rigor.
So if it is just your opinion that we are losing support, and not a fact, just don't state it as a fact.
No, my intent was not to paint you as a Nazi sympathizer, and certainly not do so because you didn't like the song (which I didn't even refer to, or like myself) but to point out that some things should not be tolerated. In my opinion, your simply saying that bringing up certain topics is "ridiculous", or saying that "this isn't anything like the 60s" without concretely addressing the arguments or elaborating on your statements with facts smacks of the very intolerance you say you avow, or at the very least a lack of intellectual rigor.
36
I'm all for fighting back. But I fight to win.
I don't think singing songs about wanting Mormons to suffer and saying they lie to their children is a winning strategy. Call me crazy.
I think the "big mormon ad blitz" will soon be playing at fundraisers in Mormon churches nationwide. Have you seen the new ads? They star a very funny comedian, Margaret Cho! She is going to raise a ton of money for them.
I don't think singing songs about wanting Mormons to suffer and saying they lie to their children is a winning strategy. Call me crazy.
I think the "big mormon ad blitz" will soon be playing at fundraisers in Mormon churches nationwide. Have you seen the new ads? They star a very funny comedian, Margaret Cho! She is going to raise a ton of money for them.
37
@35 using the phrase "lack of intellectual rigor" makes you sound mighty intelligent!!
Sorry to confuse you with opinions masquerading as fact. I was pretty sure you'd consider the context.
But are you saying calling something "ridiculous" without making an full factual argument means I am either intolerant or dumb? um, ok.
Sorry to confuse you with opinions masquerading as fact. I was pretty sure you'd consider the context.
But are you saying calling something "ridiculous" without making an full factual argument means I am either intolerant or dumb? um, ok.
38
Everyone goes on and on about love, peace, respect, blah blah blah. I actually value hate from the mormons, and deep down they value our hate for them as well. Despising each other keeps both sides strong and focused.
I would like it very much, though, if they kept their hatred very intense, very public, but it wasn't written into LAW. Similarly, I won't seek to legally ban mormon practices. I will just publicly condemn them as ignorant, sinful, and destructive to society.
As far as being respectful goes, I think winning at any cost is the wrong thing to do. I would much rather not have marriage rights for 15 more years then win them tomorrow by kissing some pious bigot's ass and telling them some crap about how I "respect your faith but don't share it." I have a feeling I'm going to get that wish. Our destiny is to win, but before we change the system it deserves to be punished. Hard.
I would like it very much, though, if they kept their hatred very intense, very public, but it wasn't written into LAW. Similarly, I won't seek to legally ban mormon practices. I will just publicly condemn them as ignorant, sinful, and destructive to society.
As far as being respectful goes, I think winning at any cost is the wrong thing to do. I would much rather not have marriage rights for 15 more years then win them tomorrow by kissing some pious bigot's ass and telling them some crap about how I "respect your faith but don't share it." I have a feeling I'm going to get that wish. Our destiny is to win, but before we change the system it deserves to be punished. Hard.
39
In case anybody cares, before MLK's "Dream" speech, there was an acoustic-guitar protest song sung at the same mic about poor white racists. The song, "Only a Pawn in Their Game", said that poor white racists who shoot black leaders to death are not really wholly to blame for shooting black leaders to death.
That's right.
Instead, it blamed a system of the powerful meant to mislead the poor white racists. That's the fucking protest song you want to write.
Fnarf's correct. Take it from MLK and his friends.
That's right.
Instead, it blamed a system of the powerful meant to mislead the poor white racists. That's the fucking protest song you want to write.
Fnarf's correct. Take it from MLK and his friends.
40
@38
Yeek, at last, a gay rights activist honest enough to admit they're happy not winning for another 15 years as long as the wait is full of opportunity to truly hate.
There are so many like you, but so few willing to admit it.
Yeek, at last, a gay rights activist honest enough to admit they're happy not winning for another 15 years as long as the wait is full of opportunity to truly hate.
There are so many like you, but so few willing to admit it.
41
"No, no, Candice. The moral of the story is this: you can expect tolerance so long as you are tolerant yourself. The intolerant will not be tolerated."
It's hilarious that Savage is completely unaware of the irony of him making this statement, but then again, many advanced cognitive faculties are unfamiliar to him.
It's hilarious that Savage is completely unaware of the irony of him making this statement, but then again, many advanced cognitive faculties are unfamiliar to him.
43
15, please don't bring Whistler into this. Our country is tolerant of everyone, including both gays and Mormons. If you're going to bother to bring Canada into the discussion, you could do well to learn from our example. Here's a hint: we didn't sing protest songs, we didn't blame the Mormons, and we didn't draw unfortunate parallels to the Holocaust.
46
"Doesn't it seem strange to have a polygamist cult lecturing the good people of California about marriage etiquette?"
-Lorenzo
-Lorenzo
47
I will not tolerate those who are intolerant of the intolerant! I am intolerant of irony, comedic or dramatic!
So...if you preach a policy of tolerance, then you yourself cannot be intolerant of anything at all without being a hypocrite? Nice reasoning there, nothing like zero-sum arguments!
Dan, the next time you preach tolerance for gays, remember that you must also be tolerant of the KKK, child molester priests, serial killers, etc, otherwise, you're a hypocrite.
Boneheads.
So...if you preach a policy of tolerance, then you yourself cannot be intolerant of anything at all without being a hypocrite? Nice reasoning there, nothing like zero-sum arguments!
Dan, the next time you preach tolerance for gays, remember that you must also be tolerant of the KKK, child molester priests, serial killers, etc, otherwise, you're a hypocrite.
Boneheads.
48
@47 Gays can't be free until Mormons suffer? Talk about zero sum arguments. The video wished suffering on others so I guess it was reminiscent of the KKK in that respect. And @38 sounds like he wouldn't be too upset with violence. You know, punishment. Hard punishment.
49
39 (and fnarf... and Dr King) for the win....
I don't truly mind the big public spotlight of outrage being trained on Magic Underpants Inc. right now, I think it's totally justified and appropriate. They did bring it on themselves and it is important to make that point very clearly.
BUT --> yes indeed our focus should be on CIVIL RIGHTS for ALL and not the homophobic pea-brained thought processes of the unfortunate. The dialogue really needs to be about RIGHTS and normality = the very boring normalcy of gay folks who want and deserve all the same rights, freedoms, and protections that boring heteros enjoy today.
The more we show 'middle America' (in all senses of that phrase) how crashingly NORMAL gay people are, how exactly-the-same-as-you gay families are, the more we can take the dialogue to where it really needs to be: EQUAL CIVIL RIGHTS FOR ALL AMERICANS.
I don't truly mind the big public spotlight of outrage being trained on Magic Underpants Inc. right now, I think it's totally justified and appropriate. They did bring it on themselves and it is important to make that point very clearly.
BUT --> yes indeed our focus should be on CIVIL RIGHTS for ALL and not the homophobic pea-brained thought processes of the unfortunate. The dialogue really needs to be about RIGHTS and normality = the very boring normalcy of gay folks who want and deserve all the same rights, freedoms, and protections that boring heteros enjoy today.
The more we show 'middle America' (in all senses of that phrase) how crashingly NORMAL gay people are, how exactly-the-same-as-you gay families are, the more we can take the dialogue to where it really needs to be: EQUAL CIVIL RIGHTS FOR ALL AMERICANS.
50
@48: Wow, where did you get that? The video did mention wanting Mormons to suffer, but now you're putting those words in my mouth.
Not only are you irony-deficient, you have no idea what satire is, nor hyperbole, and I wouldn't be too suprised if you didn't know what hypocrisy is.
Next time you're outraged, ask an adult to explain the situation to you before you start typing.
Not only are you irony-deficient, you have no idea what satire is, nor hyperbole, and I wouldn't be too suprised if you didn't know what hypocrisy is.
Next time you're outraged, ask an adult to explain the situation to you before you start typing.
51
the point is, the gays aren't funding constitutional amendments to remove the mormon church's status as a tax-exempt being. they are just calling them on their shit, and standing up - using their constitutional rights - to someone imposing their religious views in legislature to strip away other constitutional rights.
(and yes, their views are RELIGIOUS. not moral. there's nothing immoral about adult, consensual sex. that is the difference.)
(and yes, their views are RELIGIOUS. not moral. there's nothing immoral about adult, consensual sex. that is the difference.)
52
I, for one, enjoy the conversations that ensue when I am asked why I'm upset with the LDS.
In the hetero world where I live, many folks don't understand the issue at all.
I've said that some gays are in love just like some straights are in love - and want the same rights to BE in love and build a life together. THEN I pull out the stories of the partners who died without that last visit, the home and financial security that was built *together* and suddenly lost.
Only by the gays making a visible ISSUE of it does the conversation ever get started.
In the hetero world where I live, many folks don't understand the issue at all.
I've said that some gays are in love just like some straights are in love - and want the same rights to BE in love and build a life together. THEN I pull out the stories of the partners who died without that last visit, the home and financial security that was built *together* and suddenly lost.
Only by the gays making a visible ISSUE of it does the conversation ever get started.
53
@50 You were the one equating calls for tolerance - the predominant view in these comments btw - with support for the KKK and child molesters.
Talk about boneheaded. You're the one relying on false equivalence to make your point. Children often do.
Talk about boneheaded. You're the one relying on false equivalence to make your point. Children often do.
56
My mixed race “gentile” family lived in Salt Lake City for three years, and I’ve known wonderful, compassionate, giving, even queer Mormons, and can’t find it in my heart to bash all of them for the actions of their corporate church. Friends of mine elected a (closeted, of course) gay city council member in Salt lake around 1973.
When I was 15, around 1958, I was hiking in the Henry Mountains in Utah, we came across two old guys who scratched out just enough gold to go into Hanksville for flour and bacon every week. One of them said he was 60 and too old to get married and the other said he was 40 and too young to get married. I was too naive to wonder how they passed those cold Utah winter nights…
When I was 15, around 1958, I was hiking in the Henry Mountains in Utah, we came across two old guys who scratched out just enough gold to go into Hanksville for flour and bacon every week. One of them said he was 60 and too old to get married and the other said he was 40 and too young to get married. I was too naive to wonder how they passed those cold Utah winter nights…
57
@ 40
Two things - First, I'm not a gay rights activist.
Second - I didn't say I was "happy" to put of gay marriage for 15 years. I said I would rather wait 15 years than debase myself by extending an olive branch towards dishonorable people who despise me. Winning at the expense of grovelling for acceptance is not worth it. Let others cravenly plead with Mormons to "please, please reconsider." I will not do it.
I would much rather humiliate and intimidate. It's worked so well for them. And mark my words - that is how this fight will be won.
Two things - First, I'm not a gay rights activist.
Second - I didn't say I was "happy" to put of gay marriage for 15 years. I said I would rather wait 15 years than debase myself by extending an olive branch towards dishonorable people who despise me. Winning at the expense of grovelling for acceptance is not worth it. Let others cravenly plead with Mormons to "please, please reconsider." I will not do it.
I would much rather humiliate and intimidate. It's worked so well for them. And mark my words - that is how this fight will be won.
58
@57 That's not how the fight was won in Massachusetts or Connecticut. Whatever happens from here on, just remember the victories began without advocating 'intense hate' and 'hard punishment.'
But I'm sure you regret all those MA and CT couples enjoying their rights. Like you wrote, you would prefer to wait 15 years and keep bashing rather than see the constructive dialogue we saw in legislatures of the northeast.
Nah, make them SUFFER, right? Just like Margaret Cho sang in her song.
But I'm sure you regret all those MA and CT couples enjoying their rights. Like you wrote, you would prefer to wait 15 years and keep bashing rather than see the constructive dialogue we saw in legislatures of the northeast.
Nah, make them SUFFER, right? Just like Margaret Cho sang in her song.
59
57, grow the f up , will you? This isn't a schoolyard tussle over who gets to play with the basketball. These are people's lives we're talking about.
At a minimum, you need to try and imagine that people who disagree with you on gay marriage don't despise you. A lot of folks out there have complex feelings about us gays - maybe they're ok with us serving in the military or being able to file a joint tax return, while not being so ok with us adopting kids, for instance.
I'm not sure where you see humiliation and intimidation. Perhaps you need to seek counseling for paranoia. And perhaps for anger management. And leave the business of advancing gay rights to adults.
At a minimum, you need to try and imagine that people who disagree with you on gay marriage don't despise you. A lot of folks out there have complex feelings about us gays - maybe they're ok with us serving in the military or being able to file a joint tax return, while not being so ok with us adopting kids, for instance.
I'm not sure where you see humiliation and intimidation. Perhaps you need to seek counseling for paranoia. And perhaps for anger management. And leave the business of advancing gay rights to adults.
60
No self-respecting Mormon is going to lose a minutes sleep over being hated by Dan Savage or his ilk. Mormons are used to being scorned, you don't do Mormonism to be popular. Most will thrive on and feel validated from being attacked by militant homosexuals. Bring it on.
61
You're wrong about Mitt2012 also. Homosexuals making the Mormons fallguys and hectoring them for Prop 8 will raise their stock in the eyes of cultural conservatives, a group that Romney needs help with. Every time Savage flaps his yap concerns about Romney's flip-flops on Gay issues evaporate.
62
Speaking of Nazis...
Blaming Mormons for Prop 8 sounds a lot like Hitler blaming the Jews for everything he saw wrong in the world.
Where is the boycott of Catholics, Evangelicals, Orth.Jews, Black Churches, Latinos, Blacks, etc etc; the folks who actually voted to pass Prop 8??
just blame the dirty Jews-- oops-- I mean Mormons.
Blaming Mormons for Prop 8 sounds a lot like Hitler blaming the Jews for everything he saw wrong in the world.
Where is the boycott of Catholics, Evangelicals, Orth.Jews, Black Churches, Latinos, Blacks, etc etc; the folks who actually voted to pass Prop 8??
just blame the dirty Jews-- oops-- I mean Mormons.
63
@62, exactly.
People like Yeek not only blame Mormons, they call for 'hard punishment' and suffering. In comment 38 he says he values hating them.
Maybe he fantasizes about bringing all the Mormons together, maybe in some kind of camp out in the countryside?
People like Yeek not only blame Mormons, they call for 'hard punishment' and suffering. In comment 38 he says he values hating them.
Maybe he fantasizes about bringing all the Mormons together, maybe in some kind of camp out in the countryside?
64
poor poor Will (in Seattle!!) @16
"...and make it obvious you own their territory...."
Hey, SunTzu, did you notice they just nuked the homosexual Motherland (aka California) with a Constitutional Amendment?
You've got'um on the run now!
moron
"...and make it obvious you own their territory...."
Hey, SunTzu, did you notice they just nuked the homosexual Motherland (aka California) with a Constitutional Amendment?
You've got'um on the run now!
moron
65
The first words out of Cho's blowhole are:
"what ever happened to democracy?..."
Answer- In California (and about 35 other states) it amended the Constitution to ban homosexual marriage.
Satisfied?
No?
So sorry-
Maybe your foul mouthed bigoted tantrum will make you feel better.
Only thing sadder than a sore loser is a bitter eaten-up-with-hate sore loser.
But a loser, never the less.
"what ever happened to democracy?..."
Answer- In California (and about 35 other states) it amended the Constitution to ban homosexual marriage.
Satisfied?
No?
So sorry-
Maybe your foul mouthed bigoted tantrum will make you feel better.
Only thing sadder than a sore loser is a bitter eaten-up-with-hate sore loser.
But a loser, never the less.
66
wow this thread is full of bad vibes. anyone want to lighten it up a bit? civil conversation?
sometimes i come away from reading slog comments all tensed up.
sometimes i come away from reading slog comments all tensed up.
67
@58 ,59, 63
Actually, the battle in CT and MA was won via the courts, not by appealing to people who voted in a referendum to remove rights that were already in existence. The Mormons (who went out of their way to pick this fight) are a coherent entity in the CA case that was essentially absent in those other two states. The same strategy that worked in MA and CT won't work here (in fact, it already failed).
I think you're going for the darkest hyperbole possible as far as my comments go. I said I would rather wait 15 years than kiss the ass of pious bigots to win tomorrow. I didn't say anything against dialogue in legislatures, and I didn't say I regretted CT and MA couples getting married. I'd be thrilled if the battle ended tomorrow. So please, stick to the topic at hand.
Intimidation and humiliation work - take a look at ACT UP. Even MLK's rallies intimidated by the sheer enormity of their size and humiliated by underscoring the disgraceful beliefs of the opposition. Sure, he was a dignified guy, and broadcast a message of reconciliation. But you didn't see him reaching out to entrenched bigots to change their mind. He didn't ingratiate himself before the people who loathed him. He stated his case, and stayed proud, and the sympathetic came to him - not the reverse. That's how he won.
As far as hatred goes, I think it might as well be in the open. And yes, it does serve us well when our foes are honest and intense about it. Look how it's galvanized our community - that never happened with mealy-mouthed appeals to "loving everyone even when you don't agree with them" that most churches mumble out. The LDS church has empowered the gay community tremendously by putting their hate on display. And you know what? Fred Phelps and Anita Bryant actually helped gay rights in the end because they were so brazenly caustic. And, on flip side, the Mormon community will benefit from naked expression of our anger too. Semi-isolated communities thrive when there's a little bit of a siege going on. When there's no sense of outside menace, religious movements become moribund quickly.
When we've achieved our goal, then hatreds can fade back into the easy disdains that make life so much more pleasant but so much less productive.
Lastly, I very much believe in punishing the system if it cannot be changed directly. That includes the LDS church, the No on 8 leaders who did an ineffective job, and those people in California who turned against us. It is far better to be feared and hated than only hated. And with a little pressure, you may get a diamond in the end.
More...
Actually, the battle in CT and MA was won via the courts, not by appealing to people who voted in a referendum to remove rights that were already in existence. The Mormons (who went out of their way to pick this fight) are a coherent entity in the CA case that was essentially absent in those other two states. The same strategy that worked in MA and CT won't work here (in fact, it already failed).
I think you're going for the darkest hyperbole possible as far as my comments go. I said I would rather wait 15 years than kiss the ass of pious bigots to win tomorrow. I didn't say anything against dialogue in legislatures, and I didn't say I regretted CT and MA couples getting married. I'd be thrilled if the battle ended tomorrow. So please, stick to the topic at hand.
Intimidation and humiliation work - take a look at ACT UP. Even MLK's rallies intimidated by the sheer enormity of their size and humiliated by underscoring the disgraceful beliefs of the opposition. Sure, he was a dignified guy, and broadcast a message of reconciliation. But you didn't see him reaching out to entrenched bigots to change their mind. He didn't ingratiate himself before the people who loathed him. He stated his case, and stayed proud, and the sympathetic came to him - not the reverse. That's how he won.
As far as hatred goes, I think it might as well be in the open. And yes, it does serve us well when our foes are honest and intense about it. Look how it's galvanized our community - that never happened with mealy-mouthed appeals to "loving everyone even when you don't agree with them" that most churches mumble out. The LDS church has empowered the gay community tremendously by putting their hate on display. And you know what? Fred Phelps and Anita Bryant actually helped gay rights in the end because they were so brazenly caustic. And, on flip side, the Mormon community will benefit from naked expression of our anger too. Semi-isolated communities thrive when there's a little bit of a siege going on. When there's no sense of outside menace, religious movements become moribund quickly.
When we've achieved our goal, then hatreds can fade back into the easy disdains that make life so much more pleasant but so much less productive.
Lastly, I very much believe in punishing the system if it cannot be changed directly. That includes the LDS church, the No on 8 leaders who did an ineffective job, and those people in California who turned against us. It is far better to be feared and hated than only hated. And with a little pressure, you may get a diamond in the end.
68
Dream on, Yeek
There is no MLK in the anti-Prop 8 camp.
Only Bull Conner.
And gains won from judges in the face of public opinion are bitter and short term.
Lincoln knew you had to bring the nation along with you.
Harry Blackmun didn't care.
We now have a black President.
But abortion remains an oozing open wound because RoevWade shortcircuited the process of forming a national consensus.
MA and CT and CA gains given by Leftist judges against the expressed desire of the citizenry infuriate the public and set back the advance of Gay Civil Rights.
Cheaters never prosper.
There is no MLK in the anti-Prop 8 camp.
Only Bull Conner.
And gains won from judges in the face of public opinion are bitter and short term.
Lincoln knew you had to bring the nation along with you.
Harry Blackmun didn't care.
We now have a black President.
But abortion remains an oozing open wound because RoevWade shortcircuited the process of forming a national consensus.
MA and CT and CA gains given by Leftist judges against the expressed desire of the citizenry infuriate the public and set back the advance of Gay Civil Rights.
Cheaters never prosper.
69
@68
Yes, yes, I agree that there is no MLK in our camp. Maybe a few Malcolm X types at best, but the point is the same: no successful civil rights leader or movement won by bowing and scraping before bigots, imploring them to change their minds. They won by a show of potential force and very harsh criticism, and by playing hardball.
Um...Lincoln brought the nation along with him, after he kicked the living shit out of the dissenters and literally forced them to submit. He's a terrible example if you're advocating "peaceful and respectful dialogue." I mean, he did, but only after physically obliterating the other side.
As far as the courts go, we'll see. I don't think those decisions will be overturned in MA and CT. Many civil rights decisions made by courts that still stand today were contrary to the majority of public opinion at the time.
Yes, yes, I agree that there is no MLK in our camp. Maybe a few Malcolm X types at best, but the point is the same: no successful civil rights leader or movement won by bowing and scraping before bigots, imploring them to change their minds. They won by a show of potential force and very harsh criticism, and by playing hardball.
Um...Lincoln brought the nation along with him, after he kicked the living shit out of the dissenters and literally forced them to submit. He's a terrible example if you're advocating "peaceful and respectful dialogue." I mean, he did, but only after physically obliterating the other side.
As far as the courts go, we'll see. I don't think those decisions will be overturned in MA and CT. Many civil rights decisions made by courts that still stand today were contrary to the majority of public opinion at the time.
70
Ghandi and MLK were successful,
Arafat was not.
Lincoln skillfully led the Nation to come to see the Civil War as a crusade to end Slavery but was careful not to get too far in front of what the (Northern) public would accept. Northern attitudes towards blacks advanced greatly from 1860 to 1865, due to Lincoln's wise leadership.
Lincoln was actually very generous with the South considering the circumstances. It was a terrible loss to the Nation but esp to the defeated South that he was not able to lead us thru Reconstruction.
The danger is not that the rulings will be overturned but that they will stand, ala RoevWade, terminating the process midway without resolution in the minds of millions.
Any 'victory' won without bringing the hearts and minds of the nation along will be illusory.
Arafat was not.
Lincoln skillfully led the Nation to come to see the Civil War as a crusade to end Slavery but was careful not to get too far in front of what the (Northern) public would accept. Northern attitudes towards blacks advanced greatly from 1860 to 1865, due to Lincoln's wise leadership.
Lincoln was actually very generous with the South considering the circumstances. It was a terrible loss to the Nation but esp to the defeated South that he was not able to lead us thru Reconstruction.
The danger is not that the rulings will be overturned but that they will stand, ala RoevWade, terminating the process midway without resolution in the minds of millions.
Any 'victory' won without bringing the hearts and minds of the nation along will be illusory.
71
Okay, with all the Roe V Wade stuff here I'm sensing some bible-esque weirdness approaching.
I actually am totally cool with millions not finding resolution. Of course, enlightenment is preferable, but it actually tends to follow a forced change - hence, in MA attitudes towards same-sex marriage got better AFTER the change was imposed by the courts, not before. Mostly because people could see that the world didn't end. Kind of like the North changing their attitudes toward blacks AFTER a huge, bloody, horrendous war imposed on them by their government and an executive order (not a referendum) liberating slaves. After, after, after. Never before. It's sort of like taking a kid to kindergarten - he's scared shitless but you drag him in there kicking and screaming and give him some crayons, and then in a few days he's totally fine with it.
And you know what? I'm sure there are plenty of people (millions) who still oppose interracial marriage, giving women the vote, etc. etc. In fact, I'm pretty sure a majority of US citizens felt that interracial marriage was wrong until 1991, when the scales tipped. (Trying to find the source.....). Should we have waited that long to finally change the law?
I say fuck 'em. I'll take an illusory victory that gives me rights any day over some mamby-pamby "let's all move forward together" crap that means I get second-class rights while I wait for hostile dumbfucks to die off or catch up. I'm sorry, but I'm just gonna have to hurt their feelings to get this done.
I actually am totally cool with millions not finding resolution. Of course, enlightenment is preferable, but it actually tends to follow a forced change - hence, in MA attitudes towards same-sex marriage got better AFTER the change was imposed by the courts, not before. Mostly because people could see that the world didn't end. Kind of like the North changing their attitudes toward blacks AFTER a huge, bloody, horrendous war imposed on them by their government and an executive order (not a referendum) liberating slaves. After, after, after. Never before. It's sort of like taking a kid to kindergarten - he's scared shitless but you drag him in there kicking and screaming and give him some crayons, and then in a few days he's totally fine with it.
And you know what? I'm sure there are plenty of people (millions) who still oppose interracial marriage, giving women the vote, etc. etc. In fact, I'm pretty sure a majority of US citizens felt that interracial marriage was wrong until 1991, when the scales tipped. (Trying to find the source.....). Should we have waited that long to finally change the law?
I say fuck 'em. I'll take an illusory victory that gives me rights any day over some mamby-pamby "let's all move forward together" crap that means I get second-class rights while I wait for hostile dumbfucks to die off or catch up. I'm sorry, but I'm just gonna have to hurt their feelings to get this done.
72
If we decide it's ok to hurt to get it done and those become the new rules it won't go well for the 2% side.
Big badass talk is all fine on blogs but it isn't the real world.
get a clue.
Big badass talk is all fine on blogs but it isn't the real world.
get a clue.
73
@9
And did those Mormon's campaign against prop 8? Or did they vote for prop 8 because they are supposed to do what their 'prophet' tells them to do?
------------------------------------------------------------
There is a reason why gay people need to be aggressive towards Mormons.
For most Mormon's it doesn't matter how reasonable or compelling your arguments are. They will mostly agree with your arguments, feel genuinely sad about it, but in the end vote against gay rights and say "I'm sorry but we must do what the prophet tells us."
And they're not faking it. They're genuinely sad they had to do this, but they've been in this cult their entire life; taking orders from the leader is hard-wired into their brains now, and it cannot be changed except for those of the younger generations.
Which means there is only one way to get the Mormons to vote for gay rights.
It has to come from the leader.
The leader will only encourage the followers to vote for gay rights if not voting for it becomes a threat to his church.
That's why we need to be aggressive towards Magic Underpants Inc.
And did those Mormon's campaign against prop 8? Or did they vote for prop 8 because they are supposed to do what their 'prophet' tells them to do?
------------------------------------------------------------
There is a reason why gay people need to be aggressive towards Mormons.
For most Mormon's it doesn't matter how reasonable or compelling your arguments are. They will mostly agree with your arguments, feel genuinely sad about it, but in the end vote against gay rights and say "I'm sorry but we must do what the prophet tells us."
And they're not faking it. They're genuinely sad they had to do this, but they've been in this cult their entire life; taking orders from the leader is hard-wired into their brains now, and it cannot be changed except for those of the younger generations.
Which means there is only one way to get the Mormons to vote for gay rights.
It has to come from the leader.
The leader will only encourage the followers to vote for gay rights if not voting for it becomes a threat to his church.
That's why we need to be aggressive towards Magic Underpants Inc.
74
Yeek I don't know if you're still reading this, but a couple points:
You wrote, "no successful civil rights leader or movement won by bowing and scraping before bigots, imploring them to change their minds."
You need to learn something about LBJ. Imploring bigots to change their minds is exactly what he did. JFK couldn't pass the civil rights act but LBJ could. How? By begging and pleading and cajoling and making all sorts of promises and paybacks to every bigoted Senator in the south. That's how it got done.
But I suppose back in the 60's you'd be the guy telling all the black people that they should wait another 15 years and "value their hate" in the meantime.
Also regarding MA and CT the gay community was all about dialog dialog dialog all the way through with all the groups they were trying to win over. The theme was definitely not, "our opponents need hard punishment and let's sing songs about making them suffer."
You wrote, "no successful civil rights leader or movement won by bowing and scraping before bigots, imploring them to change their minds."
You need to learn something about LBJ. Imploring bigots to change their minds is exactly what he did. JFK couldn't pass the civil rights act but LBJ could. How? By begging and pleading and cajoling and making all sorts of promises and paybacks to every bigoted Senator in the south. That's how it got done.
But I suppose back in the 60's you'd be the guy telling all the black people that they should wait another 15 years and "value their hate" in the meantime.
Also regarding MA and CT the gay community was all about dialog dialog dialog all the way through with all the groups they were trying to win over. The theme was definitely not, "our opponents need hard punishment and let's sing songs about making them suffer."
75
"You can expect tolerance so long as you are tolerant yourself. The intolerant will not be tolerated."
- Dan Savage
Great quote - love it.
- Dan Savage
Great quote - love it.
76
Society seems to be inching fairly rapidly towards open same sex marriages, it wouldn't be long at all maybe even within the second term of the soon-to-be administration.
Seems to be a lot of anger directed towards the Mormons, but would gay marriage supporters feel the same about polygamous marriages? Probably not. But why not? Seems to many of the same issues....
Seems to be a lot of anger directed towards the Mormons, but would gay marriage supporters feel the same about polygamous marriages? Probably not. But why not? Seems to many of the same issues....
77
unpaid gasbag wrote:
"hey dan
tolerant?
pot... kettle... black..."
----
The above words are emblematic of the CONFUSION many here seem to have on this issue.
It's simple, people.
WAKE THE HELL UP:
ONE SHOULD NOT BE TOLERANT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE INTOLERANT OF OTHER PEOPLE'S CIVIL RIGHTS. END OF STORY.
"hey dan
tolerant?
pot... kettle... black..."
----
The above words are emblematic of the CONFUSION many here seem to have on this issue.
It's simple, people.
WAKE THE HELL UP:
ONE SHOULD NOT BE TOLERANT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE INTOLERANT OF OTHER PEOPLE'S CIVIL RIGHTS. END OF STORY.
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