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News & ArtsThursday, November 20, 2008
City Neumos Gives Mosaic Church the Boot
Posted by Jonah Spangenthal-Lee on Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 4:29 PM
Following my article in this week's paper on the Mosaic Community Church's (MCC) recent move to Neumos nightclub on Capitol Hill, the club has decided to terminate their relationship with the church, effective immediately.
MCC—sort of the soft-rock version of Mars Hill—is affiliated with the Waco, Texas-based Antioch Community Church. Antioch's website contains statements lumping homosexuality together with "drug addiction, poverty, pornography, and people unaware of their need for God."
While Pastor Jady Griffin told The Stranger that his church is "open to everyone," several members of the MCC told us that gays would not be accepted at the church.
Following the release of the article, Neumos co-owner Steven Severin pushed Griffin to clarify the church's stance on homosexuality. Severin says he didn't get the answers he was looking for.
"After speaking with [Griffin], I didn’t find enough new information that made me comfortable with what their actual stance [on homosexuality] is," Severin says. "We have to have people who support our community here [and] we’re very careful about who we work with. We decided we’re no longer going to have them here."
1
The Stranger has been doing these "evangelicals trying to make inroads in Godless Seattle" features for years. Like this one:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Conte…
or the 'Church on the Hill' in CHAC:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Conte…
Any followups on the churches The Stranger profiled before? I'm curious if they're still around, or if we can expect the MCC to be the latest in a long line of failures.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Conte…
or the 'Church on the Hill' in CHAC:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Conte…
Any followups on the churches The Stranger profiled before? I'm curious if they're still around, or if we can expect the MCC to be the latest in a long line of failures.
2
"that his church is "open to everyone," Neumos,"
You really just don't even read your work, do you? I don't blame you. It sucks.
You really just don't even read your work, do you? I don't blame you. It sucks.
5
Congratulations on affecting positive change, Jonah! And kudos to Neumos.
I'm from Texas and have way too much experience with these kinds of people. Unfortunately many Christians will see the actions of Neumos as "persecution" for their "Bible-based" beliefs and use it to fan the fires of fundamentalism. That's why I think it's a good idea to out-Christian these guys, if you can, every chance you get. Let them know that YOU know that their method of interpreting the Bible is determined by their bigotry and not the other way around. Try not to reduce yourself to attacking them for their beliefs (that's exactly what they want you to do.) No one ever won an argument with a zealot by reasoning with him. Instead, turn the other cheek, strive for the moral high ground and lead by positive example.
Remember, love the sinner, hate the sin. Inside every fundamentalist Christian is all the potential to become a full-fledged human being.
I'm from Texas and have way too much experience with these kinds of people. Unfortunately many Christians will see the actions of Neumos as "persecution" for their "Bible-based" beliefs and use it to fan the fires of fundamentalism. That's why I think it's a good idea to out-Christian these guys, if you can, every chance you get. Let them know that YOU know that their method of interpreting the Bible is determined by their bigotry and not the other way around. Try not to reduce yourself to attacking them for their beliefs (that's exactly what they want you to do.) No one ever won an argument with a zealot by reasoning with him. Instead, turn the other cheek, strive for the moral high ground and lead by positive example.
Remember, love the sinner, hate the sin. Inside every fundamentalist Christian is all the potential to become a full-fledged human being.
8
Too bad Severin was bullied into caving.
As a business owner he should be allowed to sell his product to anyone without endorsing their religious beliefs.
Nice work Jonah, your check is paid for with tranny prostitute ads and tobacco money. How are you any better?
As a business owner he should be allowed to sell his product to anyone without endorsing their religious beliefs.
Nice work Jonah, your check is paid for with tranny prostitute ads and tobacco money. How are you any better?
9
good job guys. they should not get a free pass on their bullshit, and i am glad i live in a city whose press does not give a free pass to bigots just because they are a church.
10
Setting aside calling homosexuality an issue in one's relationship with God, the statement lumping "drug addiction, poverty, pornography, and people unaware of their need for God" together sounds so much like some other, gay-friendly, popular churches in the idea that one can bible-cize or pray one's self out of poverty or drug addiction that I wonder if people reading this see the parallel (cough... Center for Spiritual Living... cough). Or do we not care if a church's stance is biblical, Christ-like, and compatible with reality so long as they adopt our political stances?
11
Could this be called discrimination? A landlord does not have to give a reason to a tenant for eviction, just 30 days notice. However if the landlord says I'm evicting you because of your religious beliefs I think there might be a law suit. We don't know the details, but I'm wondering what is really going on.
12
@11:
You have no idea what the contractual relationship was between Neumos & this church, or the laws involved, for that matter.
You have no idea what the contractual relationship was between Neumos & this church, or the laws involved, for that matter.
13
Yeah, it's so cool to be intolerant when it conforms with MY OWN Ideals! But when other people aren't tolerant of me and my lifestyle? They are such bigots! Fuck Seattle and its hypocritical creed. Like someone mentioned before: The Stranger is only free because it takes money from prostitutes, Coors Ads, and tobacco promotion. You aren't any better. In fact you are worse because you have the balls (or the stupidity) to think you are doing the world some kind of service. GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELF. Neumo's is a shit venue anyway.
14
I'm from texas too, and discovered these punks proselytizing on the UW campus. a best friend from childhood was sucked up into Antioch Community Church - that's how I know about their beliefs. I did a little research on ACC's site and discovered that "Mosaic" was operating out of Neumo's. I am tickled beyond belief that Severin booted them for their hateful views. see below, a quote from a church member (ie my friend).
15
QUOTE FROM A CHURCH-MEMBER:
"I probably shouldn't speak for the church as a whole, but I'll try...Antioch doesn't see homosexuality as any different from any other sin, but they do see it as a sin b/c we believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and that His word is truth. (Rom 1:24-27 speaks about homosexuality and then lists quite a few other sins at the end of the chapter).. We don't believe that people define their own truth but that there is a standard- God's word. I think ACC provides accountability to not act on the thoughts, to possibly find a root cause (if it might be rape, incest, distant father etc) and then allow God to change their hearts. I think that homosexuality can be a generational sin- see Exodus 20:4-6- (run though the family line like alcoholism) and therefore, people can struggle without any environmental reasons, but because someone in the family has struggled."
Central Texas is a dangerous place to be, if you're gay. I think it's right to keep that kind of ideology out of a place where we are currently (kind of) safe.
"I probably shouldn't speak for the church as a whole, but I'll try...Antioch doesn't see homosexuality as any different from any other sin, but they do see it as a sin b/c we believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and that His word is truth. (Rom 1:24-27 speaks about homosexuality and then lists quite a few other sins at the end of the chapter).. We don't believe that people define their own truth but that there is a standard- God's word. I think ACC provides accountability to not act on the thoughts, to possibly find a root cause (if it might be rape, incest, distant father etc) and then allow God to change their hearts. I think that homosexuality can be a generational sin- see Exodus 20:4-6- (run though the family line like alcoholism) and therefore, people can struggle without any environmental reasons, but because someone in the family has struggled."
Central Texas is a dangerous place to be, if you're gay. I think it's right to keep that kind of ideology out of a place where we are currently (kind of) safe.
16
@13:
Agreed, Neumos sucks. I just hope that the owner did this out of a real issue with the church involved, not just pressure from the wanna-be journalists at The Stranger. But who gives a rat's ass where ad revenue is found? Personally, I have always enjoyed the contrast between libertarian ad policies and politically correct/intolerant writing.
Agreed, Neumos sucks. I just hope that the owner did this out of a real issue with the church involved, not just pressure from the wanna-be journalists at The Stranger. But who gives a rat's ass where ad revenue is found? Personally, I have always enjoyed the contrast between libertarian ad policies and politically correct/intolerant writing.
17
renting based on your view of the tenant's religion is a very big violation of many laws
hope the guy from Neumos has a lot of money to pay them off
hope the guy from Neumos has a lot of money to pay them off
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@17:
You're confusing residential landlord-tenant law with the laws at issue here. Please offer your services to this church.
You're confusing residential landlord-tenant law with the laws at issue here. Please offer your services to this church.
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@18- So people you agree with are exempt from laws? Please offer your services to the Bush administration, dumbass.
21
@19:
In fact, given your "Bush administration" comment, I'm suspecting that you missed the point of my comment.
In fact, given your "Bush administration" comment, I'm suspecting that you missed the point of my comment.
22
The point is that if Neumo's had a contract to rent out the space and then breached that contract solely based on their religious views, they are in violation of MANY laws, both federal and state. This could lead to a federal lawsuit. Even if the reasoning for a breach wasn't religious-based, it is still a breach of contract issue, which would then be strictly a state court matter. The point is that no matter what you believe, or how much you disagree with your opponents, you can't cherry-pick laws and abide by them only when they serve your interest.
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@22:
Once more, no, no, and no (setting aside your "if," which is more important than the rest of your argument). If you're so confident, cite your sources.
Once more, no, no, and no (setting aside your "if," which is more important than the rest of your argument). If you're so confident, cite your sources.
24
The source is state common law for Washington. Common law is this great thing we have where prior judicial decisions bind subsequent decisions. Breach of contract has been strictly a state issue since the founding of our country. Ask any first year law student, and they will tell you the same thing. You are an idiot, and I feel truly sorry for you.
27
Go Choke, I knew "Yup" was a law student. Can smell their misdirected righteous indignation a mile away.
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@26:
Go ahead, show me where "Washington common law" binds commercial landlords to specific performance regardless of their reason for ending a contract. Then show me how it is a federal issue. My disbarment depends on it!
Go ahead, show me where "Washington common law" binds commercial landlords to specific performance regardless of their reason for ending a contract. Then show me how it is a federal issue. My disbarment depends on it!
30
So as these comments turn into banter once again...ha ha, I figured it would time to address just a couple of things. I'll be brief since there's a good basketball game on.
Thanks to those of you that love us and the one's that think we're shit too. Just makes us strive to be better.
Our story has been told now and we appreciate the people that gave us the time to get to the bottom of everything so I could make an educated decision and not just a reactionary one.
We didn't pull the plug due to pressure from the community. There hasn't really been that much honestly. We pulled it because we don't agree with what they believe and it's our business so we can do whatever the fuck we want as long as it doesn't infringe on anybody else's rights or cause harm to them. I turned down big Political fundraisers for Fred Thompson and Ron Paul because we didn't agree with their policies. This is essentially the same thing.
After speaking with the Pastor from the Mosaic Church, they thanked us for everything they did and walked away as they didn't want to cause us any more trouble. It was a mutual agreement.
All is now done and will get back to doing what we think we're pretty good at and that's having some fine shows and tasty cocktails.
As you were...
Thanks to those of you that love us and the one's that think we're shit too. Just makes us strive to be better.
Our story has been told now and we appreciate the people that gave us the time to get to the bottom of everything so I could make an educated decision and not just a reactionary one.
We didn't pull the plug due to pressure from the community. There hasn't really been that much honestly. We pulled it because we don't agree with what they believe and it's our business so we can do whatever the fuck we want as long as it doesn't infringe on anybody else's rights or cause harm to them. I turned down big Political fundraisers for Fred Thompson and Ron Paul because we didn't agree with their policies. This is essentially the same thing.
After speaking with the Pastor from the Mosaic Church, they thanked us for everything they did and walked away as they didn't want to cause us any more trouble. It was a mutual agreement.
All is now done and will get back to doing what we think we're pretty good at and that's having some fine shows and tasty cocktails.
As you were...
32
yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah...just another day of rampant hypocrisy in so called "tolerant" seattle.
nothing to see here...move along.
nothing to see here...move along.
33
Scary that this hate group was secretly able to set up shop right on Capitol Hill. Reminds me of when the neo-Nazi’s tried to take over an aging membership of a temple. Sadly it sounds like they may have been recruiting vulnerable kids from the local universities and convert them into homophobic bigots. Makes me wonder if there may be other hate groups in the area.
34
"While Pastor Jady Griffin told The Stranger that his church is "open to everyone," several members of the MCC told us that gays would not be accepted at the church."
As a member of MCC, I just want you guys to all know that this is absolutely not true. I don't know whether anyone actually told Jonah that or not, but it is false. Those members do not speak for the body of Mosaic Community Church. We honestly do welcome anyone because the love of Christ is not restricted to certain groups. I know most of you don't agree with our beliefs and it's easy to call us bigots, but just know that you will receive nothing but love from us when you come into our church (wherever we might be meeting next...).
By the by, have any of you actually been to Mosaic?
As a member of MCC, I just want you guys to all know that this is absolutely not true. I don't know whether anyone actually told Jonah that or not, but it is false. Those members do not speak for the body of Mosaic Community Church. We honestly do welcome anyone because the love of Christ is not restricted to certain groups. I know most of you don't agree with our beliefs and it's easy to call us bigots, but just know that you will receive nothing but love from us when you come into our church (wherever we might be meeting next...).
By the by, have any of you actually been to Mosaic?
35
Mars Hill and the MCC are nothing more than thinly veiled hate groups loaded with miscogyny and repressed control issues.
Just attend one of their "services" and you'll see it for yourself. I did. Disgusting. These people should be run out of town.
Just attend one of their "services" and you'll see it for yourself. I did. Disgusting. These people should be run out of town.
37
Calling every religious person a "bigot" and a "hatemonger" is just like calling every gay person a "degenerate" and a "pervert" - yeah, some of them are, but plenty of them aren't. In the end, all you've done is create another useless stereotype.
39
Every religious person is not a bigot, just the ones who say that certain people are inherently inferior, like the gays. (Got Hates Fags, anyone? Not allowing gays to attend the church? Yah, that's biggotry.)
Also, Steven made a good point. Fred Thompson's a cooky blowhard so Neumo's said, "no thanks." If he'd known of the church's views on homosexuality, he likely would have said, "no thanks" to them, too. Finding out after they'd already started letting the church use the space was a matter of timing. It's a good faith issue.
If he had kicked out a group that turned out to be neo-Nazi skinheads, we wouldn't be having this thread.
40
Kt,
Please keep in mind that I do not speak on behalf of Mosaic Community Church. I call this church my home, but I do not speak for the staff or any other Mosaic member.
To me the legislation is irrelevant. I'm not concerned with it because it doesn't affect me. My purpose on earth is to love God and tell others about his love. I am not a hate monger, I am not a bigot. Do I believe that homosexuality is not in line with God's will and is a sin? Yes I do. However, as the apostle Paul wrote, "I am the chief of sinners." (1 Tim 1:15) Who am I to tell a gay person "you're a sinner," when I sin every day? There is no scripture that elevates one sin above another; all sin grieves the heart of God. Christ died to save me from my sins the same as he did for everyone, whatever their sin may be.
I have homosexual friends, and I want them to enjoy the same privileges that I do. I don't want them to be discriminated against by anyone, be it other Christians, the State, etc. I have a fairly liberal view of Christianity and the role it plays in the decisions of our government and I couldn't tell you whether or not I support gay marriage because I honestly don't know. I know that I need God and I want to tell others about his love.
I've only been a believer for a few years, all the while living in Seattle, and i'm still forming my opinions about a lot of social issues like this. I don't have all the answers figured out and I definitely would never try to cram them down anyones throat if I did have answers.
what are your thoughts?
Please keep in mind that I do not speak on behalf of Mosaic Community Church. I call this church my home, but I do not speak for the staff or any other Mosaic member.
To me the legislation is irrelevant. I'm not concerned with it because it doesn't affect me. My purpose on earth is to love God and tell others about his love. I am not a hate monger, I am not a bigot. Do I believe that homosexuality is not in line with God's will and is a sin? Yes I do. However, as the apostle Paul wrote, "I am the chief of sinners." (1 Tim 1:15) Who am I to tell a gay person "you're a sinner," when I sin every day? There is no scripture that elevates one sin above another; all sin grieves the heart of God. Christ died to save me from my sins the same as he did for everyone, whatever their sin may be.
I have homosexual friends, and I want them to enjoy the same privileges that I do. I don't want them to be discriminated against by anyone, be it other Christians, the State, etc. I have a fairly liberal view of Christianity and the role it plays in the decisions of our government and I couldn't tell you whether or not I support gay marriage because I honestly don't know. I know that I need God and I want to tell others about his love.
I've only been a believer for a few years, all the while living in Seattle, and i'm still forming my opinions about a lot of social issues like this. I don't have all the answers figured out and I definitely would never try to cram them down anyones throat if I did have answers.
what are your thoughts?
41
Also, Mosaic did not try to pull a fast one on the Neumo's owners by not being upfront. We are not antigay or homophobic. As christians we disagree fundamentally on the issue of homosexuality but that doesn't mean we're homophobes. Honestly we want anyone who wants to hear about Jesus to come to Mosaic and be welcomed. Jonah and everyone else is mistaken if he thinks that is not the case. Please come! We would love to have you!
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@ mike: I'd love to come, except I don't believe in god, find churches boring as fuck, and generally think the idea that people believe the world is only 6000 years old, worship a zombie, and think rules written down by un-educated* xenophobes centuries ago should rule their lives is kind of stupid.
Just sayin'.
*To be fair, they were educated for their time and the rules were for the good of the people. I'm fine with that. But the fact that you're still following them** thousands of years later, even though most are deprecated or proven false, astonishes me.
**Selectively.
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@33: Wonder no more. Check out the Southern Poverty Law Center's Hate Group Map: http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.…
Looks like there's a fair number.
Looks like there's a fair number.
44
Does anyone have any proof that a homosexual was not allowed to join one of there services based on the fact that they were homosexual or any other reason? I have been interviewed by reporters before and what is real and what is portrayed in there article is rarely accurate. Not necessarily better or worse just not always accurate. Someone can not agree with someones lifestyle and not hate that person.
And also regardless of what your beliefs are, Atheist, Theist, Polytheist, Agnostic, Muslim, Jew, Christian or Humanist. We may not agree with on another, you may think others are misguided or ignorant. But we must let everyone practice there beliefs in this country as long as they do not impede on someone else's freedoms. If someone wants to come to Texas and have a Mosque or homosexual church, they must be allowed. If someone wants to have an organization that says everyone who goes to public school is wrong, or Sports are all evil, they can do that, I don't have to go to that group. As long as we don't impose some religious law and throwing people in jail for that stuff. Those groups are not racist or bigots unless they are throwing rocks at people or something. Discriminating against any group is still discriminating, don't become who you hate.
And also regardless of what your beliefs are, Atheist, Theist, Polytheist, Agnostic, Muslim, Jew, Christian or Humanist. We may not agree with on another, you may think others are misguided or ignorant. But we must let everyone practice there beliefs in this country as long as they do not impede on someone else's freedoms. If someone wants to come to Texas and have a Mosque or homosexual church, they must be allowed. If someone wants to have an organization that says everyone who goes to public school is wrong, or Sports are all evil, they can do that, I don't have to go to that group. As long as we don't impose some religious law and throwing people in jail for that stuff. Those groups are not racist or bigots unless they are throwing rocks at people or something. Discriminating against any group is still discriminating, don't become who you hate.
45
mike:
yes, perhaps homo-phobic is the incorrect description. homo-oppressive is perhaps better. and I am a homo that is oppressed with every convert to your brand of xianity. well, let's say 99% of 'em to make room for the 1% who may not vote solely on social issues.
antioch is also gyno-oppressive, I gotta say.
look mike, been there done that (for years in texas). I've already been born again, so I guess I'm set. it's just that if you're god is real, he's a total punk and I'm joining the other side to fight for a better universe.
yes, perhaps homo-phobic is the incorrect description. homo-oppressive is perhaps better. and I am a homo that is oppressed with every convert to your brand of xianity. well, let's say 99% of 'em to make room for the 1% who may not vote solely on social issues.
antioch is also gyno-oppressive, I gotta say.
look mike, been there done that (for years in texas). I've already been born again, so I guess I'm set. it's just that if you're god is real, he's a total punk and I'm joining the other side to fight for a better universe.
46
KT- Do you by chance write poetry? I heard a reading at an arts night in fremont of an amazingly good poem by a girl from Texas who is a lesbian...the poem expressed the pain and anger from growing up there and in church. Sounds like some of what you've said...It really seared my heart and I have actually tried to get her name so I could copy the poem into my journal. It was raw, it hurt, and I don't want to forget it.
Also, to note...I go to Mosaic and attended this reading with a friend (also from mosaic). After the event we had a long discussion on the poem and how oppressive the southern bible culture can be, etc.(we are both from Tx too).
I have gay family member/friends and know there are similar stories from points all over the country (but esp the south). All I can say is I am so sorry. It angers me when people use religion to bludgeon others. A lot of what you see in churches looks nothing like how Jesus related to people. He was inclusive not exclusive. The stories I see in the Bible, while not all permitting, are all about wide open arms.
Anyways, I just hope you'll be able to heal from that stuff you had to deal with...AND If you are the one who wrote that poem I will totally brave the spammers and put my email on the slog so you could send it to me!!
Also, to note...I go to Mosaic and attended this reading with a friend (also from mosaic). After the event we had a long discussion on the poem and how oppressive the southern bible culture can be, etc.(we are both from Tx too).
I have gay family member/friends and know there are similar stories from points all over the country (but esp the south). All I can say is I am so sorry. It angers me when people use religion to bludgeon others. A lot of what you see in churches looks nothing like how Jesus related to people. He was inclusive not exclusive. The stories I see in the Bible, while not all permitting, are all about wide open arms.
Anyways, I just hope you'll be able to heal from that stuff you had to deal with...AND If you are the one who wrote that poem I will totally brave the spammers and put my email on the slog so you could send it to me!!
47
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
(John 8:3-8:11)
Jady: Thanks for constantly reminding your sweet family of followers that all we need is to LOVE LIKE JESUS does! You are an amazing man of God and an awesome friend/brother in Christ. I love that this is will be another beautiful chapter in our journey as a family and that we get to choose the Kingdom over "pumpkins". :)
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
(John 8:3-8:11)
Jady: Thanks for constantly reminding your sweet family of followers that all we need is to LOVE LIKE JESUS does! You are an amazing man of God and an awesome friend/brother in Christ. I love that this is will be another beautiful chapter in our journey as a family and that we get to choose the Kingdom over "pumpkins". :)
48
#47: That's a lovely story in a way. But if you have any sort of reasonably scholarly Bible, you'll note that it's made up; it doesn't appear anywhere in scripture until the 9th century. It's details like that that make people like me dubious about the Bible you're so intent on worshipping. Why not just love others and cut out the rules part?
#46: I grew up evangelical and I appreciate that from a Bible-thumping perspective, the new breed of evangelicals are trying not to be so overtly hateful in their approach to homosexuals. So you may not think of yourself as homophobic, since your current position is an attempt to get past an earlier, worse version of homophobia. But as long as you think that homosexuality is some sort of disease or misconduct caused by trauma or perversion, you're going to be an asshole no matter how widely you smile or how nicely you pat the sinner's head. (There are gay animals in the wild. What trauma did they ever suffer? Is it something you might pray about?)
The Bible is wrong about homosexuality, just as it's wrong about creationism and women and history, and the sooner you get over that and focus on what it's right about (which bears a striking resemblance to 'common decency'), the sooner you'll actually be selling a product that educated people want to buy. Right now there's poison in the bathwater.
#46: I grew up evangelical and I appreciate that from a Bible-thumping perspective, the new breed of evangelicals are trying not to be so overtly hateful in their approach to homosexuals. So you may not think of yourself as homophobic, since your current position is an attempt to get past an earlier, worse version of homophobia. But as long as you think that homosexuality is some sort of disease or misconduct caused by trauma or perversion, you're going to be an asshole no matter how widely you smile or how nicely you pat the sinner's head. (There are gay animals in the wild. What trauma did they ever suffer? Is it something you might pray about?)
The Bible is wrong about homosexuality, just as it's wrong about creationism and women and history, and the sooner you get over that and focus on what it's right about (which bears a striking resemblance to 'common decency'), the sooner you'll actually be selling a product that educated people want to buy. Right now there's poison in the bathwater.
51
In some places MCC = Metropolitan Community Church. Anyone besides me creeped out by the thought of someone from the hinterlands seeing MCC and thinking safe and gay-friendly and winding up at Mosaic?
52
We're all intollerant. It's not hypocricy to cry for tolerance of one issue and not another.
I can call someone who lynches a black man a bigot and still want to lynch a murdering rapist. You're right I'm a totaly hypocrit I'm intolerant of hate towards innocent people and completely tolerant of hate of harmful damaging behavior.
If the church can manage convince me that their view that homosexuality is "detestable" and an "abomination" then there is a case to be intolerate. Until then it's a case of an innocent and productive minority group being openly persecuted and insulted.
Tolerance isn't a blank check. Nobody said it was. I'm intolerant of pedophilia and I feel very strongly that I could justify that intolerance. Some people deserve to be hated. Some don't.
Not all ideas and beliefs are equal. Some are good, some are bad. Some are backed by our best understanding of science and history some are not.
I can call someone who lynches a black man a bigot and still want to lynch a murdering rapist. You're right I'm a totaly hypocrit I'm intolerant of hate towards innocent people and completely tolerant of hate of harmful damaging behavior.
If the church can manage convince me that their view that homosexuality is "detestable" and an "abomination" then there is a case to be intolerate. Until then it's a case of an innocent and productive minority group being openly persecuted and insulted.
Tolerance isn't a blank check. Nobody said it was. I'm intolerant of pedophilia and I feel very strongly that I could justify that intolerance. Some people deserve to be hated. Some don't.
Not all ideas and beliefs are equal. Some are good, some are bad. Some are backed by our best understanding of science and history some are not.
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