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News & ArtsWednesday, November 19, 2008
Religion The Mormon Church Jumps the Couch
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 9:13 AM
Remember when Tom Cruise went rogue? Remember how he jumped on Oprah's couch, attacked Brooke Shields for taking anti-depressants, tore into Matt Lauer, and had that big-eyed starlet lobotomized and impregnated? Remember the damage his antics did to his career and to Scientology, his batshit religion? And remember how Cruise's behavior empowered critics of Scientology?
I think the Mormon church, with Prop 8, has essentially jumped the couch. There are a lot of very angry, very creative people out there, not all gay, and many of these angry people have long memories and platforms that will allow them to wage asymmetrical cultural warfare against the Mormon church. No Mormon churches should be vandalized and no Mormons should be physically attacked—there should be no violence—but Mormon church had better brace itself for a long period of sustained scrutiny and ridicule.
I don't think the Mormon church has much to fear from scrutiny and ridicule—the Catholic Church has been subject to both for centuries and they're still electing popes, baptizing infants, and raping tweens—but the Mormon church has worked to avoid scrutiny because it knows, deep down, that it was founded by a fraud and that the tenets of its faith don't pass the laugh test. What's worse, fundamentalist and evangelical Christians who've been exposed to the tenets of the Mormon faith typically conclude that Mormons aren't Christians—all that stuff about God and Jesus being brothers and becoming a God of your very own planet after you die, etc.
So here's what the Mormon church bought with the $20,000,000 it pumped into the "Yes on Prop 8" campaign: They've infuriated homo and hetero creative types who are now going to drag Mormon beliefs out into the public square, mock them mercilessly and at length, which will entertain the irreligious while also exposing Mormon beliefs to fundamentalists and evangelicals who weren't already familiar with them. This should destroy whatever goodwill the Mormons bought with those gauzy "this message brought to you by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" commercials—it should also quickly undo whatever political capital the Mormon church thought it was purchasing with the "base" of the GOP, a.k.a. fundamentalists and evangelicals, which should undermine Mitt Romney's chances of securing the GOP's nomination in 2012 or 2016 or 2000 and ever.
And remember, Magic Underpants Inc., you started it.
1
I think at this point in time Gay and Straight Americans should call their law makers in DC and ask them to investigate removing the tax exempt status from ANY AND ALL religious groups that get involved in politics at any level. Why don't Gay Americans get more involved?
2
Keep on it! Since the election I go to sleep every night incensed with what the church has done. So it is a relief to wake up and read your condemnations.
3
You are nothing if not a crusader Mr. Dan Savage. I adore you and love your writing, but your histrionics can be exhausting sometimes.
Also, I was raised in the Mormon religion and never heard that God and Jesus were brothers—Mormons believe, as most Christians, that God is the babydaddy of Jesus.
Also, I was raised in the Mormon religion and never heard that God and Jesus were brothers—Mormons believe, as most Christians, that God is the babydaddy of Jesus.
6
Matt Stone and Trey Parker (South Park for those who live in a cave) and Robert Lopez (Avenue Q) are in the process of creating a musical based on a Mormon missionary.
Let the games begin!
By the way, where does one get the magic underwear?
Let the games begin!
By the way, where does one get the magic underwear?
7
Leave the Federal Government out of this, Bighorn. We should seek to embarrass bigots. We should avoid anything that engenders sympathy for them.
9
Dan, exactly what I've been thinking.
In the past I've never really wanted to know anything about Mormons; have dismissed the religion without really knowing much about it. Total disinterest.
Now I've been motivated to actually learn specifics about what they believe; this new knowledge is NOT to their advantage.
They've created their own perfect bad publicity campaign.
In the past I've never really wanted to know anything about Mormons; have dismissed the religion without really knowing much about it. Total disinterest.
Now I've been motivated to actually learn specifics about what they believe; this new knowledge is NOT to their advantage.
They've created their own perfect bad publicity campaign.
11
So what you're saying is Mormons haven't already had to deal with years of scrutiny and ridicule?!
You do know that they had to flee to the other side of the country because Catholics and Protestants tried to kill them right?
I'm not going to justify their spending so much money on Prop. 8. It was wrong and I disagree with that decision. But as a woman who is related to Mormons by marriage I find your representation of their beliefs to be highly incorrect.
They do not become God of their very own planet. They do not claim to wear "magical underpants". They do not believe God and Jesus are brothers.
I am upset with the Mormon church for sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong. And believe it or not, my Mormon in-laws are ALSO very displeased that the Church of Latter Day Saints has created such a rift.
I understand you and a lot of other folks are pissed that this happened. But I fear you are lumping an entire religion into a group... that's not fair.
The Church did not use money from the Church. They take donations for specific issues such as this. Therefore... not ALL Mormons supported this effort. Only the idiots who donated did.
Single them out.
You do know that they had to flee to the other side of the country because Catholics and Protestants tried to kill them right?
I'm not going to justify their spending so much money on Prop. 8. It was wrong and I disagree with that decision. But as a woman who is related to Mormons by marriage I find your representation of their beliefs to be highly incorrect.
They do not become God of their very own planet. They do not claim to wear "magical underpants". They do not believe God and Jesus are brothers.
I am upset with the Mormon church for sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong. And believe it or not, my Mormon in-laws are ALSO very displeased that the Church of Latter Day Saints has created such a rift.
I understand you and a lot of other folks are pissed that this happened. But I fear you are lumping an entire religion into a group... that's not fair.
The Church did not use money from the Church. They take donations for specific issues such as this. Therefore... not ALL Mormons supported this effort. Only the idiots who donated did.
Single them out.
12
Dan, Going after the mormons is exactly the right path. I hope this means you aren't continuing your anti-Utah stance. FYI, there was a healthy showing for the Prop 8 protests in Salt Lake.
14
God are you ever an idiot. I'm actually concerned for the well-being of your child. Not because his parents are gay, mind you, but because one of his fathers is a blithering numskull. Did you have to take lessons from Coulter? Or does all of this come naturally?
15
@3 - I think Dan was thinking of the Mormon doctrine that Jesus and Satan, (and actually all other humans and demons,) are "spirit brothers," in the we were all born to God and his wife or wives in the "Pre-Existence."
@6 - To get the underwear you need a "Temple Recommend" - The card that says you've been found "worthy" by your local leaders to go into the Mormon temple.
@6 - To get the underwear you need a "Temple Recommend" - The card that says you've been found "worthy" by your local leaders to go into the Mormon temple.
16
a) we should make Gay a religion. the more dick you suck, the more saved you are. ta-da! problem solved!
b) mormons. damn them! i've been hiding this under my hat for unfathomable reasons, but: The Mormon Church in my hometown PREACHED AGAINST...me. personally. adrian ryan! i was a free-thinking-homo-sexing-raunchy-neopaganing devil worshiper or something, they said, at least 9.9% of which was probably true. i had "befriended" the deeply gay and deeply closeted little brother of the deacon of our local "stake house," and one fine sunday, he just went off on a rant detailing the diabolical influence of non-mormon friends, and how, precisely, "friends can lead one from family and the true path" -and used ME as all the examples! it was the proudest moment of my life (besides the time i invited the jehovas witnesses IN-- and they said NO!), and today that little closeted mormon boy i befriended and corrupted is a schoolteacher somewhere in idaho. and to this day i still like to fuck mormons. it makes me feel FILTHY.
b) mormons. damn them! i've been hiding this under my hat for unfathomable reasons, but: The Mormon Church in my hometown PREACHED AGAINST...me. personally. adrian ryan! i was a free-thinking-homo-sexing-raunchy-neopaganing devil worshiper or something, they said, at least 9.9% of which was probably true. i had "befriended" the deeply gay and deeply closeted little brother of the deacon of our local "stake house," and one fine sunday, he just went off on a rant detailing the diabolical influence of non-mormon friends, and how, precisely, "friends can lead one from family and the true path" -and used ME as all the examples! it was the proudest moment of my life (besides the time i invited the jehovas witnesses IN-- and they said NO!), and today that little closeted mormon boy i befriended and corrupted is a schoolteacher somewhere in idaho. and to this day i still like to fuck mormons. it makes me feel FILTHY.
17
@3 Carollani...I think Dan meant that Mormon theology posits that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Which it does posit.
@11 Hunted...um, yes, a core element of the Mormon theology is that adherents can progress to a state of godhood and can create their own worlds. They don't talk about this much right now (they're trying to join the mainstream christian club) but this is a core element of their theology.
Your apologism for mormonism needs some brushing up.
As for the story? Let the lampooning begin.
...but, let's not forget that most all religions are founded on loony ideas. Transbustantiation anyone?
@11 Hunted...um, yes, a core element of the Mormon theology is that adherents can progress to a state of godhood and can create their own worlds. They don't talk about this much right now (they're trying to join the mainstream christian club) but this is a core element of their theology.
Your apologism for mormonism needs some brushing up.
As for the story? Let the lampooning begin.
...but, let's not forget that most all religions are founded on loony ideas. Transbustantiation anyone?
18
@15: Yeah, Jesus and Satan are bros. I just think it's dangerous to talk like a mob leader and spread falsehoods in a group think situation.
19
As a Catholic Athiest, I can't say the Catholic church passes the laugh test, if you take way all the trappings and just look at the facts. Still, Mormons are funnier.
21
@11
I bet one of the most effective ways to get what you call the "idiot" (your words) Mormons to change their ways is for family such as yours to speak up and talk with them.
Hopefully that is what some of this anti Mormon sentiment might achieve - instead of decent, equality supporting Mormons lashing back out at the criticism, they'll turn to fellow Mormons and try to change them.
So talk to your family. You sound like you are in a great place to make a difference.
I bet one of the most effective ways to get what you call the "idiot" (your words) Mormons to change their ways is for family such as yours to speak up and talk with them.
Hopefully that is what some of this anti Mormon sentiment might achieve - instead of decent, equality supporting Mormons lashing back out at the criticism, they'll turn to fellow Mormons and try to change them.
So talk to your family. You sound like you are in a great place to make a difference.
22
I am tired of the apologists who keep giving us the "don't lump all Mormons (or Utah-folk) together... we are as mad as you are... etc."
It seems to me gays, athiests, non-Christians, et al are frequently and repeatedly lumped together and there seems to be little outcry. Now that the Mormon ox has been gored, they are howling like King Lear in his madness and consequently being recognized as such (insane, not literary). No, I am sorry but you have pretty much insisted on being hoisted on your own petard because you all have "gone along with" the religion program of your choosing. It goes with the territory, even if it comes with the baggage of your leaders' hubris.
You all deserve everything you have coming. In this instance Dan is very much in the right.
It seems to me gays, athiests, non-Christians, et al are frequently and repeatedly lumped together and there seems to be little outcry. Now that the Mormon ox has been gored, they are howling like King Lear in his madness and consequently being recognized as such (insane, not literary). No, I am sorry but you have pretty much insisted on being hoisted on your own petard because you all have "gone along with" the religion program of your choosing. It goes with the territory, even if it comes with the baggage of your leaders' hubris.
You all deserve everything you have coming. In this instance Dan is very much in the right.
23
And not that I'm a huge fan of the Boy Scouts of America, but don't forget that the Mormons hold that organization hostage and have been instrumental in keeping homosexual people out of its ranks.
25
@11 - Being a lapsed Mormon and returned missionary I can tell you that Mormons who have been the through the temple "Endowment Ceremony" (i.e. most adult Mormons,) wear special garments with four masonic markings. One at the knee of the knee-length underpants, one at the navel and one over each nipple.
If you read the first chapter of the church's most basic doctrinal manual, "Gospel Principles" you would know that, by Mormon theology, we all lived with God before we were born. That includes all people who have or will live on Earth and the "One third of the host of Heaven" (i.e demons) that Lucifer led away because he disagreed with God's plan. So yes Satan and Jesus are brothers but it's kind of red herring because their everyone's brothers.
Mormon doctrine teaches as two separate concepts "Salvation" and "Exaltation." Salvation is what most Christians think of as going to Heaven, and according to Mormons, everyone gets that. Exaltation is described as "being with God and being like God," "Eternal Progression," and "Worlds without end." Mormons are specifically told in the Temple Endowment Ceremony that they can become "Gods and Goddesses." This doesn't mean only that we "get our own planet" if we're faithful. We will become Gods/Goddesses of innumerable worlds.
Any more questions?
If you read the first chapter of the church's most basic doctrinal manual, "Gospel Principles" you would know that, by Mormon theology, we all lived with God before we were born. That includes all people who have or will live on Earth and the "One third of the host of Heaven" (i.e demons) that Lucifer led away because he disagreed with God's plan. So yes Satan and Jesus are brothers but it's kind of red herring because their everyone's brothers.
Mormon doctrine teaches as two separate concepts "Salvation" and "Exaltation." Salvation is what most Christians think of as going to Heaven, and according to Mormons, everyone gets that. Exaltation is described as "being with God and being like God," "Eternal Progression," and "Worlds without end." Mormons are specifically told in the Temple Endowment Ceremony that they can become "Gods and Goddesses." This doesn't mean only that we "get our own planet" if we're faithful. We will become Gods/Goddesses of innumerable worlds.
Any more questions?
26
I dunno, Dan. Once you start mocking them, then they get to go all victim-y and "look at the mean homos attacking religion! It's the Holocaust all over again!" As stupid as that is, a lot of their fellow religious nutbags and Fox News totally live for the whole victimization thing. It's their favorite political pose. On the other hand, nothing beats the satisfaction of mockery.
27
@11, reasoning with this moron is fruitless. He's only capable of thinking as far as the end of his nose, like an id-driven kindergartener lashing out at being eliminated from a game of dodgeball.
Dan obviously relishes being the bigot-in-chief for the gay side. Blacklisting, public naming and shaming, denunciations of anyone and everyone who disagrees with his narrow and intolerant view on the issues - Sen. McCarthy would be proud of our Danny, and with good reason.
Of course the dust will settle eventually, Dan will go back to writing his little column, the group therapy sessions with placards and slogans will be behind us, and then the grownups will have to get back to the hard work on advancing gay rights, to the extent that will be possible in the poisoned environment that's been created by Savage and his ilk.
Because of course, the real work involved is hard and painstaking and involves nuance and compromise doesn't take place on talk shows on CNN, and self-righteous jeremiads against this church or that won't get us any closer to the goal, and therefore Dan has no interest in it. Because he's not interested in solutions, only in retribution and recriminations.
Dan obviously relishes being the bigot-in-chief for the gay side. Blacklisting, public naming and shaming, denunciations of anyone and everyone who disagrees with his narrow and intolerant view on the issues - Sen. McCarthy would be proud of our Danny, and with good reason.
Of course the dust will settle eventually, Dan will go back to writing his little column, the group therapy sessions with placards and slogans will be behind us, and then the grownups will have to get back to the hard work on advancing gay rights, to the extent that will be possible in the poisoned environment that's been created by Savage and his ilk.
Because of course, the real work involved is hard and painstaking and involves nuance and compromise doesn't take place on talk shows on CNN, and self-righteous jeremiads against this church or that won't get us any closer to the goal, and therefore Dan has no interest in it. Because he's not interested in solutions, only in retribution and recriminations.
29
@11: While 15 set straight a couple things you had incorrect (how close are you to these Mormon relatives?), I want to make sure everyone knows that the planet thing is true. You have to attain the highest level of heaven (which at least relies more on adherence than money, unlike Scientology), and it only applies to men (women are too busy tending to the spirit family). Mormons don't like to talk about this very much, because it's technically not monotheism, and evangelicals get really hung up on that.
30
@25: I understand they were garments. The fact that people insist on making fun of them and calling the garments "magical" is what bugs me.
My husband is also a returned missionary. He left the church a few years later, but still believes in many of their teachings. I guess he's never discussed the whole "God of your own planet" thing to me in detail.
I never said anything about Satan and Jesus being brothers. GOD and Jesus is what Dan said that I disagreed with.
@17: Exactly... what religion isn't somewhat wacky.
FYI, I'm an agnostic.
My husband is also a returned missionary. He left the church a few years later, but still believes in many of their teachings. I guess he's never discussed the whole "God of your own planet" thing to me in detail.
I never said anything about Satan and Jesus being brothers. GOD and Jesus is what Dan said that I disagreed with.
@17: Exactly... what religion isn't somewhat wacky.
FYI, I'm an agnostic.
31
The best defence of gay marriage is a good concerted and targetted offense.
Keep on it.
It's working.
Keep on it.
It's working.
32
@27 -- there is no One True Way to make progress. As far as we can tell, it's all "the real work". Talking to your friends and neighbors, protesting in the streets, writing to your legistlators, agitating in newspapers -- it all counts.
Careful planners at responsible national gay orgs (NGLTF, HRC, etc.) trying to strategize the safe/best way...were against all of the original marriage lawsuits. Not prudent, they said. They supported the horrible play-it-safe *losing* No on 8 campaign. They never considered protesting the Prop 8 loss.
Tell yourself that Dan is doing it WRONG and you know how to do it right, all you want to. But the truth is way more complicated.
Careful planners at responsible national gay orgs (NGLTF, HRC, etc.) trying to strategize the safe/best way...were against all of the original marriage lawsuits. Not prudent, they said. They supported the horrible play-it-safe *losing* No on 8 campaign. They never considered protesting the Prop 8 loss.
Tell yourself that Dan is doing it WRONG and you know how to do it right, all you want to. But the truth is way more complicated.
33
and @11 - unlike you, I have relatives who were Mormons so I know you're wrong and the planet thing is very true, as is the underwear.
Love the paintings they have at Salt Lake City and the statues ... oh my.
Love the paintings they have at Salt Lake City and the statues ... oh my.
35
@28 - The temple stuff is creepy for a lot of Mormons too as it's not openly discussed outside the temple. That's why they wait to let you go until you're:
A. If your a woman - about to get married, like that day or a couple days later!
B. Right before you go on a mission. It's a huge right of passage, expected of all Mormon young men.
By the time you get in and find out about the masonic handshakes and funky robes and green apron that you have to wear, it's a little to late to back out. Your family is all there and you've already committed to get married or go on the "mish."
Did I mention the main ceremony room of most temples is a MOVIE THEATER?!?!?!?!?
They show a story about Adam and Eve getting kicked out of the Garden of Eden and then dealing with Lucifer. (Unfortunately no visible nudity in the garden. Long hair and bushes to cover them like on TV.)
A. If your a woman - about to get married, like that day or a couple days later!
B. Right before you go on a mission. It's a huge right of passage, expected of all Mormon young men.
By the time you get in and find out about the masonic handshakes and funky robes and green apron that you have to wear, it's a little to late to back out. Your family is all there and you've already committed to get married or go on the "mish."
Did I mention the main ceremony room of most temples is a MOVIE THEATER?!?!?!?!?
They show a story about Adam and Eve getting kicked out of the Garden of Eden and then dealing with Lucifer. (Unfortunately no visible nudity in the garden. Long hair and bushes to cover them like on TV.)
36
I think this has been asked, but how come Dan et al aren't calling for a boycott of California? They passed the damn thing after all.
37
Yeah, get the creative types after them. Look what a great job all the poets and rock bands did keeping George Bush out of office and stopping the Iraq war. I think one thing both Dan Savage and the wingnuts agree on is that Hollywood has the power to rewrite the morals of America.
39
Also, they REEEEALLy don't like to publicize this, but even though the Mormons finally relented and allowed people of color to be baptized in the late 70s, they still believe that when Mormon black people die and go to heaven they turn white.
Somehow, that's even more offensive than just being outright discriminatory.
Somehow, that's even more offensive than just being outright discriminatory.
40
I've long held the general principal of ignoring religious people unless they fuck with me. I'm an atheist. But I understand that lots of people get comfort and a sense of purpose from their religious beliefs. I don't buy it, but if it makes them happy, fine. I don't care. Whatever. So I have largely ignored mormons. When they come to my door, I just politely say "no thank you" and send them on their way.
Not any more. Now they have actively fucked with me and mine. They have directly intruded into my life in a big way, and I will ignore them no longer.
Last week I was so pissed I wanted to burn moron churches to the ground. I fully admit that was completely irrational, and I'm past that level of anger now. I'm not completely nuts. But I'm not letting it go. Any mormons that approach me or knock on my door will no longer get a polite "no thank you"; they will get an earful and it won't be polite. I have been learning a bit more about their beliefs so as to be better informed. I think it is a great idea to openly mock them and tear them down whenever possible.
Put it this way mormons, you don't respect my civil rights and stay out of my affairs, therefore I will not respect your religious beliefs. Fuck you. It is open warfare time, and you brought it on yourselves.
Not any more. Now they have actively fucked with me and mine. They have directly intruded into my life in a big way, and I will ignore them no longer.
Last week I was so pissed I wanted to burn moron churches to the ground. I fully admit that was completely irrational, and I'm past that level of anger now. I'm not completely nuts. But I'm not letting it go. Any mormons that approach me or knock on my door will no longer get a polite "no thank you"; they will get an earful and it won't be polite. I have been learning a bit more about their beliefs so as to be better informed. I think it is a great idea to openly mock them and tear them down whenever possible.
Put it this way mormons, you don't respect my civil rights and stay out of my affairs, therefore I will not respect your religious beliefs. Fuck you. It is open warfare time, and you brought it on yourselves.
41
@39 - Even though it's now somewhat denied by the Church, Mormon Prophets preached for decades that in the "War in Heaven" that took place before the creation of Earth:
A THIRD of all people were bad and followed Satan.
A THIRD were good and fought on God's side
THE LAST THIRD who didn't follow Satan, but didn't fight for God are those WHO ARE BORN BLACK. That was their punishment for fence-sitting.
This was the rational used to justify denying full membership (i.e. Leadership positions, Preisthood, going to the temple.) to black people UNTIL 1978.
A THIRD of all people were bad and followed Satan.
A THIRD were good and fought on God's side
THE LAST THIRD who didn't follow Satan, but didn't fight for God are those WHO ARE BORN BLACK. That was their punishment for fence-sitting.
This was the rational used to justify denying full membership (i.e. Leadership positions, Preisthood, going to the temple.) to black people UNTIL 1978.
42
@41 - They still think that teh blacks turn white when they go to heaven though, right? I was raised in southeast Idaho (UBER-Mormon country) and that was how it was always explained to me (as I stood there with my jaw flapping somewhere around my knees).
Just want to be sure, I don't want to publicize a batshit insane Mormon belief if it's not actually true.
Just want to be sure, I don't want to publicize a batshit insane Mormon belief if it's not actually true.
43
@36,
Because California has more protections for gays and lesbians than 90 percent of the states in this country. Punishing a state that's that far ahead is fucking insane, especially when so many other states have no anti-discrimination laws for gays, don't allow gays to adopt, don't offer any domestic partnership benefits or civil unions, and have same sex marriage bans to boot. Get the picture?
Because California has more protections for gays and lesbians than 90 percent of the states in this country. Punishing a state that's that far ahead is fucking insane, especially when so many other states have no anti-discrimination laws for gays, don't allow gays to adopt, don't offer any domestic partnership benefits or civil unions, and have same sex marriage bans to boot. Get the picture?
44
@43 - Not to mention, the Governator, even with all of his faults, basically called bullshit on Prop 8 and told gays to "keep fighting".
45
@42 - Again, it's not emphasized by the Church but still in the written doctrines and the tradition but, YES. The "Mark of Cain" would be removed from righteous black people in heaven.
Joseph Smith even taught the dark skin of the "Lamanites" (i.e. the Native Americans,) would turn white if they accepted the Gospel.
Joseph Smith even taught the dark skin of the "Lamanites" (i.e. the Native Americans,) would turn white if they accepted the Gospel.
46
The eventual, and reluctant, admission of persons of color to the LDS hierarchy proves that LDS folks, unlike many religions, can be taught. Their minds can be changed - and not just for their own self-interest, which was the reason they ostensibly abandoned polygyny. They care very much indeed how the public at large perceives them. Widespread condemnation, boycotts, protests, etc., DO have a place in this process - as does the more painstaking legal work of enforcing equal protection.
We may not see the LDS church abandon condemnation of homosexuality in the next few decades, but I do think they will stop poking their nose in and interfering in the political process for a time, if we make it unpleasant enough to do so.
We may not see the LDS church abandon condemnation of homosexuality in the next few decades, but I do think they will stop poking their nose in and interfering in the political process for a time, if we make it unpleasant enough to do so.
47
32, being a recently immigrated Canadian who worked on gay marriage issues there, I daresay I do know how to do it right, certainly more than Dan. Though I suppose we were fortunate enough not to have a batshit insane sex columnist going on CBC talking about that mean ol' Catholic Church and calling it "Ritz Crackers Inc".
Look, I'm glad at the mass mobilization this thing has produced. Maybe that can be the silver lining here. But, to my mind, there hasn't been a serious attempt to channel this surge of energy and enthusiasm into something productive. And no, I don't consider marching, boycotts, and blacklisting productive. If anything, I consider them counter-productive.
I know there is a lot of pent-up frustration at organizations such as the HRC, but the truth is that those working within the system don't typically have the luxury of lashing out and putting out self-righteous (or worse) press-releases. Those who work in the trenches are constrained by a need to maintain good relations with all sorts of public officials and interest groups, who don't look kindly upon being ridiculed.
Perhaps you feel this type of quid-pro-quo politics is ridiculous and corrupt, and that's fine, but that is where real work gets done, and real, quantifiable results achieved.
My issue with Dan is that in a few weeks, he'll lose interest in this - having barged into the room, made a complete ass of himself, caused a total ruckus, and ruined months and years of hard work. And, as usual, it'll be left to someone else, someone more responsible and capable of thinking long term, to repair the damage and clean up the mess.
Look, I'm glad at the mass mobilization this thing has produced. Maybe that can be the silver lining here. But, to my mind, there hasn't been a serious attempt to channel this surge of energy and enthusiasm into something productive. And no, I don't consider marching, boycotts, and blacklisting productive. If anything, I consider them counter-productive.
I know there is a lot of pent-up frustration at organizations such as the HRC, but the truth is that those working within the system don't typically have the luxury of lashing out and putting out self-righteous (or worse) press-releases. Those who work in the trenches are constrained by a need to maintain good relations with all sorts of public officials and interest groups, who don't look kindly upon being ridiculed.
Perhaps you feel this type of quid-pro-quo politics is ridiculous and corrupt, and that's fine, but that is where real work gets done, and real, quantifiable results achieved.
My issue with Dan is that in a few weeks, he'll lose interest in this - having barged into the room, made a complete ass of himself, caused a total ruckus, and ruined months and years of hard work. And, as usual, it'll be left to someone else, someone more responsible and capable of thinking long term, to repair the damage and clean up the mess.
48
Couldn't somebody just arrange to 'find' some more golden plates? Seriously, since it's clear these people will believe anything if it's written on a gold plate, somebody just needs to announce that they found the lost appendix of the book of Mormon ("An angel told me where to dig.")
And that plate, when translated from the secret Egyptian heiroglyphics it was written in, says "One More Thing: Stop Messing With the Gays. Let 'em get married. Signed, God."
If history is any indication, they won't even ask to see the plates. Asking for proof would show a lack of faith.
And that plate, when translated from the secret Egyptian heiroglyphics it was written in, says "One More Thing: Stop Messing With the Gays. Let 'em get married. Signed, God."
If history is any indication, they won't even ask to see the plates. Asking for proof would show a lack of faith.
49
@ 42-- woah woah, -really?-
someone at slog should make up a mormon fact cheat sheet for those of us who never cared to spend time trying to understand...
someone at slog should make up a mormon fact cheat sheet for those of us who never cared to spend time trying to understand...
50
@46 - Expect the LDS church to wait longer than anyone else on any social issue.
Let me reiterate - They didn't allow full membership for black people UNTIL 1978!!!
Even then it took an official "Revelation" from God to the Mormon Prophet (i.e the President of the Church) for it to happen. Mormons believe their doctrine is already correct and infallible and that God will not permit their leaders to lead them astray.
Let me reiterate - They didn't allow full membership for black people UNTIL 1978!!!
Even then it took an official "Revelation" from God to the Mormon Prophet (i.e the President of the Church) for it to happen. Mormons believe their doctrine is already correct and infallible and that God will not permit their leaders to lead them astray.
51
As long as it stays on the side of ad verecundiam, with not too much ad hominem. Gotta stay strong.
52
43, I think the question is why boycott any states at all, unless you think that will help. And by help I mean something other than making the boycotter feel better about himself.
The twisted logic of the ill-considered Utah boycott could easily be extended to say that the entire world ought to boycott the United States because of Prop 8.
The twisted logic of the ill-considered Utah boycott could easily be extended to say that the entire world ought to boycott the United States because of Prop 8.
53
first they killed christmas, then they attacked my underpants. woe is the mormon! forever persecuted!
54
I love me some hot mormon ass! Cute, blonde, wide-eyed missionaries are the best for having kinky gay sex!
It is unbelievably sexy when I peel off their magic undies, but sometimes they look really, really sad when they are buttoning them back up afterward...
@16 adrian ryan, you should definitely start your own big gay religion. free money! fight fire with fire, gays!
It is unbelievably sexy when I peel off their magic undies, but sometimes they look really, really sad when they are buttoning them back up afterward...
@16 adrian ryan, you should definitely start your own big gay religion. free money! fight fire with fire, gays!
55
@48 - I think this is a good idea. According to Joseph Smith the Book of Mormon is only one third of what was on the Golden Plates and it doesn't mention anything about homosexuality.
We just need to get ahold of the Angel Moroni to show us where he put the plates after he got them back from Joseph. Maybe that "Sealed Portion" that we have yet to see will restore the "Doctrine of Same-Sex Marriage" to the Church.
We just need to get ahold of the Angel Moroni to show us where he put the plates after he got them back from Joseph. Maybe that "Sealed Portion" that we have yet to see will restore the "Doctrine of Same-Sex Marriage" to the Church.
56
we could always see my high school math teacher's special undergarment through his flimsy white dress shirt while he taught us trigonometry. it looked...vintage. but i didn't know about the nipple emblems until right now, so for that i thank you, mr. petersen. it could have been worse.
58
Glad to finally get validation for what I've been doing for years, which is give the Magic Underpants boys an earful when they make the mistake of ignoring my "No Solicitors" sign. As the Mor(m)on Cult tracks and attempts to contact all those who leave the church, they might track all those who have no interest, and leave them off the "visit list".
Proposition 8 is just one more really good reason in the long list of reasons to hate the Mor(m)on Cult.
Proposition 8 is just one more really good reason in the long list of reasons to hate the Mor(m)on Cult.
59
No religion passes the laugh test, that's what makes it religion and not science. But the comparison to Cruise's couch jumping antics is pretty apt.
60
I seem to recall an illustrated, comic-book style representation of Mormon beliefs. Does anyone have a link?
61
Mormons finally allowed blacks into the priesthood, saying they would "become white and delightsome." I wonder what gays turn into. They've already cornered the market on delightsome.
62
@60 - That's all over YouTube. Just search "banned Mormon cartoon." It's from an old anti-Mormon film called "The Godmakers."
I will say however that it is totally SENSATIONALIZED and in some cases completely inaccurate about Mormon doctrine. It's not trying to be objective, it's trying to make their beliefs look crazier they really. In my mind that's unfair, unkind and completely unnecessary.
I will say however that it is totally SENSATIONALIZED and in some cases completely inaccurate about Mormon doctrine. It's not trying to be objective, it's trying to make their beliefs look crazier they really. In my mind that's unfair, unkind and completely unnecessary.
63
I really hope that the gay activists take the advice of Dan Savage and try to take on the LDS church. The LDS church is a well organized powerful world religion and the gay community is a bunch of whining babies that don’t take to kindly to Democracy or old ladies with crosses. Honestly do any of you guys and gals in the gay community really believe you could do anything to negatively affect the LDS church short of violent acts? Bring it on.
64
@49
just go grab yourself a copy of "Mormon Doctrine" by Bruce McConkie at your local used book store. The older, the better. The 50's versions are hard to find, but they had all the really horrifying stuff in them, but the more recent editions will still have plenty to keep you in stitches.
just go grab yourself a copy of "Mormon Doctrine" by Bruce McConkie at your local used book store. The older, the better. The 50's versions are hard to find, but they had all the really horrifying stuff in them, but the more recent editions will still have plenty to keep you in stitches.
65
Dan: I am LDS (Mormon), and I have many gay friends -- inside and outside of the church. I am aware of and sensitive to their concerns on this matter, and they are -- in the end -- my friends. I love and care about them and take the time to hear them out, discuss, gain perspective, get correction, and we live together as friends should. We disagree sometimes, all friends do, but I don't excise them from my life and disrespect them for having a point-of-view.
Do you, Dan, have *any* LDS (Mormon) friends? Have you ever taken the time to have an honest, non-confrontational conversation with someone you know, love, and trust about her church, her faith, her reasons for belonging to that community? Reading a little bit of your vitriol, I fear that you have not, and I would hope that you could have the opportunity to do so.
"We" are not this "other" that you so enjoy villifying and portraying (and profiting from), just as "you" are not this "other" that is homogenous and single-minded. I would hope that you could show some civility and seek some understanding, rather than simply taking the easy, uninformed road of writing vitriolic mumbo-jumbo.
Do you, Dan, have *any* LDS (Mormon) friends? Have you ever taken the time to have an honest, non-confrontational conversation with someone you know, love, and trust about her church, her faith, her reasons for belonging to that community? Reading a little bit of your vitriol, I fear that you have not, and I would hope that you could have the opportunity to do so.
"We" are not this "other" that you so enjoy villifying and portraying (and profiting from), just as "you" are not this "other" that is homogenous and single-minded. I would hope that you could show some civility and seek some understanding, rather than simply taking the easy, uninformed road of writing vitriolic mumbo-jumbo.
67
@65: Vitriolic mumbo-jumbo is a great phrase. Would that be like when you claim that God is forcing you to support and fund attempts to suppress other people's rights? Or that, gosh you'd love to help out all your gay friends, but there's an important mystical, theological reason why you can't, and it's not open to discussion because who are we to question (what church leaders assure us is) God's will?
Like that kind of vitriolic mumbo-jumbo?
...vitriolic mumbo-jumbo.
@65: Vitriolic mumbo-jumbo is a great phrase. Would that be like when you claim that God is forcing you to support and fund attempts to suppress other people's rights? Or that, gosh you'd love to help out all your gay friends, but there's an important mystical, theological reason why you can't, and it's not open to discussion because who are we to question (what church leaders assure us is) God's will?
Like that kind of vitriolic mumbo-jumbo?
68
To #65:
I can't speak for Dan, but I know and have known many Mormons. You will notice I don't use the word friend, they do not see me as such, nor I them. As a gay man, they neither trust or accept me. Ultimately it comes down to tolerating those that are different than yourself, but if it tolerance isn't recieved, one shouldn't expect to get to be given it.
I can't speak for Dan, but I know and have known many Mormons. You will notice I don't use the word friend, they do not see me as such, nor I them. As a gay man, they neither trust or accept me. Ultimately it comes down to tolerating those that are different than yourself, but if it tolerance isn't recieved, one shouldn't expect to get to be given it.
69
@65 - Dan is my friend and I'm still technically LDS. His colleague David Schmader has married into his fellas accepting LDS family. But that's not what this is about.
Dan Savage and the gay community in general didn't pour money into a campaign to restrict the rights of Mormons. Mormons did pour money to take restrict the rights of gay people.
Why don't Mormons want gay people to marry -
Short Answer: "The Prophet tells me so." And when the Prophet speaks, the discussion is over.
Long Answer: I guess because they think that their religious mythology is more important than the lives of real gay families like my partner and I or Dan and his boyfriend and son. They would rather the law reflect what they think other people should do than allow people to choose to do something with which they disagree. They don't want their kids to be aware of the existence of gay couples because they fear that their kids will then think it's ok to "choose a gay lifestyle." Basically it's like Lucifer's plan in the pre-existence that people would be forced to obey God, rather than having Free Agency to choose right or wrong. The LDS church sided with Lucifer's plan on this one.
BTW - Here is a great Children's song they taught as in church; it's very popular still today:
(chorus)
Follow the Prophet,
Follow the Prophet
Follow the Prophet,
Don't go Astray
Follow the Prophet,
Follow the Prophet
Follow the Prophet,
He Knows the way.
(Final Verse)
Now we have a world where people are confused.
If you don't believe it, go and watch the news.
We can get direction all along our way,
If we heed the prophets-- follow what they say.
More...
Dan Savage and the gay community in general didn't pour money into a campaign to restrict the rights of Mormons. Mormons did pour money to take restrict the rights of gay people.
Why don't Mormons want gay people to marry -
Short Answer: "The Prophet tells me so." And when the Prophet speaks, the discussion is over.
Long Answer: I guess because they think that their religious mythology is more important than the lives of real gay families like my partner and I or Dan and his boyfriend and son. They would rather the law reflect what they think other people should do than allow people to choose to do something with which they disagree. They don't want their kids to be aware of the existence of gay couples because they fear that their kids will then think it's ok to "choose a gay lifestyle." Basically it's like Lucifer's plan in the pre-existence that people would be forced to obey God, rather than having Free Agency to choose right or wrong. The LDS church sided with Lucifer's plan on this one.
BTW - Here is a great Children's song they taught as in church; it's very popular still today:
(chorus)
Follow the Prophet,
Follow the Prophet
Follow the Prophet,
Don't go Astray
Follow the Prophet,
Follow the Prophet
Follow the Prophet,
He Knows the way.
(Final Verse)
Now we have a world where people are confused.
If you don't believe it, go and watch the news.
We can get direction all along our way,
If we heed the prophets-- follow what they say.
70
@67: the church does not force it's members to fund such propositions. Members' tithings are never used for political reasons. Members make donations if they wish to support something.
71
@70: You are splitting hairs. Members' tithes fund an organization that is engaged in political campaigning. Even if their tithing is not going directly into the campaign fund, it is still helping to facilitate the organization's overall activities. My understanding is church members have essentially no say in how the Mormon leadership choose to spend that money and little expectation of disclosure. Additionally, one lends one's tacit support simply by attending even if one refrains from active participation.
Nobody is legally compelled to join a religion in this nation. If someone's chosen church preaches something with which they strongly disagree, they are free to leave. Conversely, if they willingly stay they can expect to be called to account for the actions of that church, since those actions represent the collective actions of its members.
Nobody is legally compelled to join a religion in this nation. If someone's chosen church preaches something with which they strongly disagree, they are free to leave. Conversely, if they willingly stay they can expect to be called to account for the actions of that church, since those actions represent the collective actions of its members.
72
@62 -- Thanks, but the one I was thinking of isn't a video. It's more like a graphic novel, with many pages. As I remember it, it contained references to Mormon source material showing the origin of the strange things depicted in the drawings. Definitely not a sympathetic portrayal.
73
@72 - Ok, I had that when I was a kid. It's a children's reader that covers the whole Book of Mormon. I'm pretty sure it's still available in almost exactly the same format, weird drawings and all. It's available from Mormon bookseller Deseret book.
I don't recall that it's an official publication of the Church, but it's very popular. I would say a high percentage of Mormon kids grew up with that book.
I don't recall that it's an official publication of the Church, but it's very popular. I would say a high percentage of Mormon kids grew up with that book.
74
@72 - Sorry, I just read your comment more closely. I guess I don't know what you're talking about.
75
Jordan @47 -
I promise I'm not trying to be dense here. I just don't understand... Exactly what has Dan ruined? And what do you have to work at fixing?
I do understand about having to 'get along with people', but I'm thinking most Mormons don't even know Dan exists. Does he really have that much impact?
(Admittedly, I'm one of the many who really wants to *lash out* at the ones who've hurt me. We tend to be Dan's cheerleaders. At least for the moment.)
I promise I'm not trying to be dense here. I just don't understand... Exactly what has Dan ruined? And what do you have to work at fixing?
I do understand about having to 'get along with people', but I'm thinking most Mormons don't even know Dan exists. Does he really have that much impact?
(Admittedly, I'm one of the many who really wants to *lash out* at the ones who've hurt me. We tend to be Dan's cheerleaders. At least for the moment.)
76
75, Dan's ruined the atmosphere of good faith that's necessary for building a broad consensus in favour of same-sex marriage.
I'm sure you're right that most Mormons don't know who Dan is - but let's not forget they are less than 2% of California's population. Let's remember that, in order to move this forward, we have to convince a good number of people that what we're asking for is just. Let's further remember that Prop 8 was stacked in our favour, thanks to what I'd call status quo bias, and that in order to get an affirmative proposition passed in a future election, we'll need to get a whole lot of people to change their mind about gay marriage.
Given those parameters, lashing out wildly is not just stupid and annoying, it actually does considerable damage to long term prospects.
Put another way, simply imagine yourself in the shoes of one of the people who might have voted for Prop 8, but is a good target constituency to be in favour of gay marriage in the future. Would you be convinced by Dan's harangues? Or would it merely convince you that you were right to support the proposition all along?
I'm sure you're right that most Mormons don't know who Dan is - but let's not forget they are less than 2% of California's population. Let's remember that, in order to move this forward, we have to convince a good number of people that what we're asking for is just. Let's further remember that Prop 8 was stacked in our favour, thanks to what I'd call status quo bias, and that in order to get an affirmative proposition passed in a future election, we'll need to get a whole lot of people to change their mind about gay marriage.
Given those parameters, lashing out wildly is not just stupid and annoying, it actually does considerable damage to long term prospects.
Put another way, simply imagine yourself in the shoes of one of the people who might have voted for Prop 8, but is a good target constituency to be in favour of gay marriage in the future. Would you be convinced by Dan's harangues? Or would it merely convince you that you were right to support the proposition all along?
77
** Would you be convinced by Dan's harangues? Or would it merely convince you that you were right to support the proposition all along? **
That's hard for me to answer... except among my many talents, I'm a great dog-trainer. And I know that by trying to force a dog to do something, I'm likely to reinforce his tendency to fight back and refuse.
So, yes, Obama is right to seek common ground - and gays might be better served that way, too.
I was fortunate enough to see all Dan's public appearances last week. He seemed quite reasonable to me and I don't think his behavior would provoke that attack response.
Tony Perkens was as rude as he could be and blaming Dan for daring to speak. The only other person who seemed to be upset with him was the preacher who was blaming gays for the problems AA's have in their marriages. (A totally unreasonable argument.)
I think that in another month or so, most of us will be ready to get on your bandwagon. Maybe not Dan, but most of us.
That's hard for me to answer... except among my many talents, I'm a great dog-trainer. And I know that by trying to force a dog to do something, I'm likely to reinforce his tendency to fight back and refuse.
So, yes, Obama is right to seek common ground - and gays might be better served that way, too.
I was fortunate enough to see all Dan's public appearances last week. He seemed quite reasonable to me and I don't think his behavior would provoke that attack response.
Tony Perkens was as rude as he could be and blaming Dan for daring to speak. The only other person who seemed to be upset with him was the preacher who was blaming gays for the problems AA's have in their marriages. (A totally unreasonable argument.)
I think that in another month or so, most of us will be ready to get on your bandwagon. Maybe not Dan, but most of us.
78
76, Dan's done what? All by his lonesome? Just by interrupting Anderson Cooper and doing a really good impression of someone whose actual family is actually being threatened.. Oh yeah. His actual family is actually being threatened.
Congrats on your good work in Canada. Yes, consensus building is important. Maybe some day about twenty years from now there may even be a pro-same-sex marriage consensus here in Georgia. In the meantime, Dan Savage is a breath of fresh air.
Congrats on your good work in Canada. Yes, consensus building is important. Maybe some day about twenty years from now there may even be a pro-same-sex marriage consensus here in Georgia. In the meantime, Dan Savage is a breath of fresh air.
79
I used to be mormon. My entire family and some of my friends are still mormon. I love them and many of them were not happy about the letter read in church that directed members to support prop 8. They are great people in many ways, but the mormon apologists need to shut the fuck up, because they don't know what they are talking about.
First, their beliefs really are that crazy. I think the racist stuff (native americans will become white and delightsome when they repent and return to god!) is so much worse than the weird underpants and the becoming gods and goddesses of your own worlds stuff. The history of polygamy and their complete unwillingness to deal with that history is also disturbing.
Mormons that disagree with the church on this issue will sit by and let the church wage these campaigns against gays just like they did when blacks were not allowed as full members of the church. They are slaves to the prophet. It is time to make them uncomfortable. I am sick of their complacency and blind faith in things that they know are wrong. Being sweet with them about this issue just allows them to smile and make excuses for the church. Confronting them puts them in a difficult place and creates the chaos that change requires. I am going to keep pushing my family and friends on this one.
First, their beliefs really are that crazy. I think the racist stuff (native americans will become white and delightsome when they repent and return to god!) is so much worse than the weird underpants and the becoming gods and goddesses of your own worlds stuff. The history of polygamy and their complete unwillingness to deal with that history is also disturbing.
Mormons that disagree with the church on this issue will sit by and let the church wage these campaigns against gays just like they did when blacks were not allowed as full members of the church. They are slaves to the prophet. It is time to make them uncomfortable. I am sick of their complacency and blind faith in things that they know are wrong. Being sweet with them about this issue just allows them to smile and make excuses for the church. Confronting them puts them in a difficult place and creates the chaos that change requires. I am going to keep pushing my family and friends on this one.
80
78, I'm not sure how Dan's family is actually being threatened, unless he lives in California. In fact, for a great majority of the marchers, there wasn't anything personal at stake. It was highly symbolic for the most part.
Let's also remember that, presumably, the common goal is to advance and protect gay rights in the entire country, not just in select spots here and there. Pulling the trigger too early might backfire. That's what an idiot like Gavin Newsom doesn't understand. And Savage doesn't appear to either. One day, we'd like to see gay marriage enacted in Utah as well - surely that's not going to happen if we start some kind of pointless war with the LDS church.
Let's also remember that, presumably, the common goal is to advance and protect gay rights in the entire country, not just in select spots here and there. Pulling the trigger too early might backfire. That's what an idiot like Gavin Newsom doesn't understand. And Savage doesn't appear to either. One day, we'd like to see gay marriage enacted in Utah as well - surely that's not going to happen if we start some kind of pointless war with the LDS church.
81
I forget- do I live in a FREE COUNTRY? Can I support ideas that follow my conscience- at the very core? So, because i think different than no on 8- I am wrong? How intollerate of you. Any church can state what it says in the scriptures. They can tell members to vote. I know that gay people have more TOLERANCE than yes on 8 people, right?
I am embarrassed for the people I see in the protests. Acting like they do does not help your cause. INTOLLREANCE!
Heidi
I am embarrassed for the people I see in the protests. Acting like they do does not help your cause. INTOLLREANCE!
Heidi
82
There is a comic-book version of the Book of Mormon, the book Mormons see as a companion to the Bible and believe to be translated from the plates Joseph Smith found: http://www.wwrn.org/sparse.php?idd=6100
Like all religions, Mormons have some weird ideas (to throw in a couple more: they believe polygamy still exists in heaven, which means according to the church, my divorced and remarried Mormon parents will live together after they die. Fun! And they also believe in baptism for the dead, allowing people to become Mormon after they die - goes over really well with Holocaust victims' families).
But focusing on their oddities, however entertaining, does miss the point: who cares what they believe? What matters is their efforts to take away rights. And for this reason, focusing on any religion's beliefs is missing the point. The point is, we have to fight against ANYONE who wants to deny rights. The question of marriage is a legal/civil rights question. ANY religion should have no part in determining who gets rights. That is unconstitutional. We should advocate in those terms, which I think are much stronger than the "religions are wrong about this" argument. The Catholics are wrong, the Baptists are wrong, the Mormons are wrong, and the legislators and communities that deny these rights are wrong. But most important, the laws are wrong.
The solution that would be legal and constitutional would be: civil unions (call it marriage or whatever) for everyone (gay or straight) who wants to create a family unit, recognized by the government. Religious marriage performed in whatever church to whomever that church sees fit to marry - those marriages having no bearing on the status of the civil union (whatever you choose to call it).
Like rights for women and people of color, I expect this will happen first on local levels, then regional, then finally will be written into federal law. California is but one battle - the real target as I see it is the federal level. And that will take a long time. Gird your loins, people! Keep on suing!
More...
Like all religions, Mormons have some weird ideas (to throw in a couple more: they believe polygamy still exists in heaven, which means according to the church, my divorced and remarried Mormon parents will live together after they die. Fun! And they also believe in baptism for the dead, allowing people to become Mormon after they die - goes over really well with Holocaust victims' families).
But focusing on their oddities, however entertaining, does miss the point: who cares what they believe? What matters is their efforts to take away rights. And for this reason, focusing on any religion's beliefs is missing the point. The point is, we have to fight against ANYONE who wants to deny rights. The question of marriage is a legal/civil rights question. ANY religion should have no part in determining who gets rights. That is unconstitutional. We should advocate in those terms, which I think are much stronger than the "religions are wrong about this" argument. The Catholics are wrong, the Baptists are wrong, the Mormons are wrong, and the legislators and communities that deny these rights are wrong. But most important, the laws are wrong.
The solution that would be legal and constitutional would be: civil unions (call it marriage or whatever) for everyone (gay or straight) who wants to create a family unit, recognized by the government. Religious marriage performed in whatever church to whomever that church sees fit to marry - those marriages having no bearing on the status of the civil union (whatever you choose to call it).
Like rights for women and people of color, I expect this will happen first on local levels, then regional, then finally will be written into federal law. California is but one battle - the real target as I see it is the federal level. And that will take a long time. Gird your loins, people! Keep on suing!
83
@81 - What are you talking about? If you think differently on prop 8 we will think you're wrong and you will think we're wrong. It IS a free country and that's how it works.
When someone thinks someone else is wrong - just like many gay people thought Prop 8 was wrong and the LDS church was wrong to support it - they are allowed to say so. How is this anti-free speech or anti-tolerance?
The organized gay and progressive communities have made no attempt to curtail the religious freedoms of Mormons. Mormons have made many attempts to curtail the civil rights of gays and lesbians. In other words, gays tolerate Mormons but Mormons don't tolerate gays.
What is your definition of "TOLERANCE?" In my mind, it means that as long as someone is doing you no harm, you live and let live. What harm does same-sex marriage do to Mormons? None. You don't have to change your beliefs. You can't get arrested for preaching against us, just like the KKK can't get arrested for preaching hate against blacks and Jews. You don't have to marry us, just like you don't have to marry anyone you don't want to now.
Religion, which is a total matter of choice, is protected in this country. Even if you believe, (despite all the evidence to the contrary,) that being gay/lesbian is a choice, it is equally deserving of protection. You have the freedom to marry and live how you see fit. It is not "INTOLLREANCE"(sic) when we ask for the same thing. It is not "INTOLLREANCE"(sic) when we decry those who will deny it to us.
Please seek the tiniest bit of empathy and imagine yourself in the shoes of a gay/lesbian family for a moment. We just want the same things as you. We want our families to be protected and to be treated with dignity. That's all we're trying to get you to understand. We not trying to change your beliefs. We're not even trying to make you accept us. We just want to be treated equally by the government of which we are all citizens.
More...
When someone thinks someone else is wrong - just like many gay people thought Prop 8 was wrong and the LDS church was wrong to support it - they are allowed to say so. How is this anti-free speech or anti-tolerance?
The organized gay and progressive communities have made no attempt to curtail the religious freedoms of Mormons. Mormons have made many attempts to curtail the civil rights of gays and lesbians. In other words, gays tolerate Mormons but Mormons don't tolerate gays.
What is your definition of "TOLERANCE?" In my mind, it means that as long as someone is doing you no harm, you live and let live. What harm does same-sex marriage do to Mormons? None. You don't have to change your beliefs. You can't get arrested for preaching against us, just like the KKK can't get arrested for preaching hate against blacks and Jews. You don't have to marry us, just like you don't have to marry anyone you don't want to now.
Religion, which is a total matter of choice, is protected in this country. Even if you believe, (despite all the evidence to the contrary,) that being gay/lesbian is a choice, it is equally deserving of protection. You have the freedom to marry and live how you see fit. It is not "INTOLLREANCE"(sic) when we ask for the same thing. It is not "INTOLLREANCE"(sic) when we decry those who will deny it to us.
Please seek the tiniest bit of empathy and imagine yourself in the shoes of a gay/lesbian family for a moment. We just want the same things as you. We want our families to be protected and to be treated with dignity. That's all we're trying to get you to understand. We not trying to change your beliefs. We're not even trying to make you accept us. We just want to be treated equally by the government of which we are all citizens.
84
First off, picking on the Mormon religion for being looney is like picking on Coke for not being as good as Pepsi. All religions are namebrands, and all have their totally batshit beliefs. (Magic underpants are anymore goofy than a virgin birth, a burning bush or seeing 72 virgins after you die?) What gives them credibility is a group of people agrees to follow them.
But I guess i also view gay marriage with a bit of skepticism. I am under no impression whatsoever that gay marriage is going to give us equality - and, frankly, I don't care, as a gay man, if I receive it from the straight world. Yes, I completely agree we should have the same legal rights, but I can't comprehend the entire backlash against Prop 8. Your love with a partner isn't compromised because some dipshit preacher tells you it is wrong - no more than you being gay was compromised by it.
I find it, in some ways, offensive that after spending decades thinking being gay was wrong, and I needed to be "straight", that gay leaders are once again telling me I need to assimilate myslef more into the straight world to find acceptance. I am happy I accepted being gay, and don't need the term "marriage" attached to a relationship to validate it or my sexuality. If the heteroes want marriage - let them have it. We are creative enough to start our own unique tradition, one that heteroes, one day, might want to copy.
But I guess i also view gay marriage with a bit of skepticism. I am under no impression whatsoever that gay marriage is going to give us equality - and, frankly, I don't care, as a gay man, if I receive it from the straight world. Yes, I completely agree we should have the same legal rights, but I can't comprehend the entire backlash against Prop 8. Your love with a partner isn't compromised because some dipshit preacher tells you it is wrong - no more than you being gay was compromised by it.
I find it, in some ways, offensive that after spending decades thinking being gay was wrong, and I needed to be "straight", that gay leaders are once again telling me I need to assimilate myslef more into the straight world to find acceptance. I am happy I accepted being gay, and don't need the term "marriage" attached to a relationship to validate it or my sexuality. If the heteroes want marriage - let them have it. We are creative enough to start our own unique tradition, one that heteroes, one day, might want to copy.
86
Have you ever seen the South Park episode on Mormonism? It's called "All About the Mormons". Go here to see it. You'll be laughing for days.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes…
http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes…
87
@84 - It's easy to say that marriage doesn't matter if it isn't something your personally seeking. For those of us with families in need of the same legal protections as straight families, it definitely does matter.
It's not about "assimilating" into a more "straight lifestyle." It's about having access to the equal legal protections from the government of which we are all citizens.
You're right to choose not to get married is taken away when the choice of whether or not you can marry is put into someone else's hands.
It's not about "assimilating" into a more "straight lifestyle." It's about having access to the equal legal protections from the government of which we are all citizens.
You're right to choose not to get married is taken away when the choice of whether or not you can marry is put into someone else's hands.
88
84--i felt the way you do for decades. But when there's someone you're nuts about, and want to spend every day with, but you're a US citizen and they are not...
Suggestions?
No?
OK, to take the long view...it would be great if any two people (or more) could commit to each other as "family"--not limited only to romantic love partners. By backing that up with legal requirements for financial support (for 10 or 20 years, no matter what), a US citizen could legally bring any such "family" into the US. That would be lovely. But y'know, for all my friends who are 30-, 40-, 50- or 60-something, and still trying to make long distance relationships work, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE, pushing for marriage (or truly marriage-equivalent unions, not some watered down crud) seems like a fine way to go.
You, of course, will always be welcome to not use the option, if it does not apply to your life.
Suggestions?
No?
OK, to take the long view...it would be great if any two people (or more) could commit to each other as "family"--not limited only to romantic love partners. By backing that up with legal requirements for financial support (for 10 or 20 years, no matter what), a US citizen could legally bring any such "family" into the US. That would be lovely. But y'know, for all my friends who are 30-, 40-, 50- or 60-something, and still trying to make long distance relationships work, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE, pushing for marriage (or truly marriage-equivalent unions, not some watered down crud) seems like a fine way to go.
You, of course, will always be welcome to not use the option, if it does not apply to your life.
89
Dan, you made some very good points re the Mormon Church. Whatever our disagreements with these bigots, it must NOT degenerate into violence. I can understand the anger, I am angry too, but any violence will only play into the hands of those who hate us.
As for tax exempt status for religions who engage in the political process, I agree, it should be removed. If they're going to take stands, endorse or condemn candidates, then they have to be treated like any other organization.
As for tax exempt status for religions who engage in the political process, I agree, it should be removed. If they're going to take stands, endorse or condemn candidates, then they have to be treated like any other organization.
90
Hate & intolerance, the very thing the gay community claims it has been a victim of lo these many years ... now they turn it on a wacky religion and call it "activism" ... a "movement"? Who cares if people want to wear magic underpants or demonize psychiatrists? Isn't that still allowed in this country? Myself, I consider reading Dan Savage a religious experience. But that's just me. I don't care what floats a Mormon's boat as long as I can have my own boat. And gays will be able to marry, but like all struggles, it takes time and small steps. John Lennon, please reincarnate soon and write a new song for Minds That Hate ...
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