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News & ArtsMonday, November 17, 2008
Homo / Religion Some Provocations... Provoke
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 10:20 AM
Anti-gay Christians bigots enjoy the same rights to freedom of speech that we all enjoy. But they've never had a right to stand on street corners in the Castro peddling their anti-gay hate without attracting a little free speech in return—and they're foolish to expect the roll-eyes, walk-on-by reception SF queers typically give 'em, not in the wake of Prop 8. They can speak and preach and try to convert us to the "straight lifestyle" all the like; we can blow whistles, shout, and speak right back. No hitting, no pushing, no shoving—lest we be labeled intolerant and lose the moral high ground, per Joe's post. But while "prayer" is protected speech, it's speech like any other speech—it doesn't enjoy some special protection, it can and will be responded to.
But let's not play games: even in calmer times, anti-gay Christians turning up in gay neighborhoods to pray us away are engaged in an act of religious and political provocation. A group of gays and lesbians that showed up outside suburban mega-church every Sunday to chant and sing about the glories of the gay lifestyle in an attempt to "convert" straight-churchgoers would not welcomed with open arms either.
1
Physical assaults are not OK, Dan. It doesn't matter who's provoking whom here. Stuff like this loses you votes. I know it's hard, but you MUST walk on by.
2
There was no physical contact that I saw in the video. Just lots of shouting and Free Speech making.
4
Fnarf: "No hitting, no pushing, no shoving—lest we be labeled intolerant and lose the moral high ground, per Joe's post."
5
Yes, I misread. I'm sorry. But "can and will be responded to" is going to lead to physical attacks, almost inevitably. Which is exactly what these loons want to happen (especially the "molestation" part).
6
The Christofascists are saying there WAS violence, but I'm not buying it. Seriously. They were urinated on?
I don't get these people who say we should just walk on by. Forget that. They took away rights in CA, and the Christianists have been shitting on gays and lesbians across this nation with terror via ballot box for years. They just never picked an uber gay state before. And now they have.
We shouldn't hit them or be violent. But their right to free speech doesn't trump our right. At least not any more. Fuck them.
Blessings.
I don't get these people who say we should just walk on by. Forget that. They took away rights in CA, and the Christianists have been shitting on gays and lesbians across this nation with terror via ballot box for years. They just never picked an uber gay state before. And now they have.
We shouldn't hit them or be violent. But their right to free speech doesn't trump our right. At least not any more. Fuck them.
Blessings.
7
Here's a little ditty I repeated over and over at the top of my voice when they showed up at some event or other. "Two thousand years of rape, murder and plunder. That's what Jesus will give you!" and "The Nazi's were all raised in good Christian homes" and "Christian priests rape children" They get tired of hearing this real fast. No hitting or shoving is necessary.
8
Many witnesses state that there was no violence. Joe.My.God isn't helping matters when he leaves the impression that there was just because one of these nuts says so. He also doesn't help matters by predicting that someone is going to get killed. I don't think he realizes it, but he is actually increasing the chance of violence when he spreads the word that there was violence when there wasn't.
9
i didn't see any violence, just anger. and i think it's totally legit, everyone should be angry. sadly i'm pretty sure those christians get off on the whole persecution thing, they're probably comparing themselves to jesus right now.
also, i hope somebody offers to buy those cops a beer, that's a tough job.
also, i hope somebody offers to buy those cops a beer, that's a tough job.
10
Mike - did you not read the entire post? Joe explicitly says that he doesn't buy the Choir Boy's account of the event. He implies that we should be skeptical of it. I certainly am.
I lived in the Castro for the past three years and walked by 18th and Castro where these guys would sing every Friday night on my way home. They were annoying but, like Dan says, you just ignored them. But there are particular sensitivities that they're ignoring and it highlights how condescending and cowardly their message really is. If they cared about our souls, they'd engage one-on-one. Here, there's nothing but a holier than thou gloat session going on. They don't try to understand our positions because they've already marginalized our lives to cliche and stereotype, only expecting gay boys and girls to go 100% their way. That's cultural imperialism, the white man's burden, a movement to civilize us in their own image. It's bullshit. Whatever rights they have to be in the Castro doesn't insulate them from the exercise of anger and reaction our community has to reply in kind.
I lived in the Castro for the past three years and walked by 18th and Castro where these guys would sing every Friday night on my way home. They were annoying but, like Dan says, you just ignored them. But there are particular sensitivities that they're ignoring and it highlights how condescending and cowardly their message really is. If they cared about our souls, they'd engage one-on-one. Here, there's nothing but a holier than thou gloat session going on. They don't try to understand our positions because they've already marginalized our lives to cliche and stereotype, only expecting gay boys and girls to go 100% their way. That's cultural imperialism, the white man's burden, a movement to civilize us in their own image. It's bullshit. Whatever rights they have to be in the Castro doesn't insulate them from the exercise of anger and reaction our community has to reply in kind.
12
I've never done it, for fear of getting killed or something, but I always want to tell those kind of people that, in the Bible, when it refers to one particular disciple as "the one Christ loved" or "the beloved disciple" that it doesn't mean they were just good buddies, and then ask them why they hate Jesus.
13
Woa - Andrew Sullivan and Dan are tag-teaming some really good stuff. Sullivan quotes Dan and then adds...
"I strongly support civility in this struggle. Religious services and practices should be scrupulously respected. But when a church, like the Mormon church, makes a concerted effort to enter the public square and strip a small minority of basic civil rights, it is simply preposterous for them then to argue that the Mormon church cannot be criticized and protested because they are a religion..."
there's more:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th…
"I strongly support civility in this struggle. Religious services and practices should be scrupulously respected. But when a church, like the Mormon church, makes a concerted effort to enter the public square and strip a small minority of basic civil rights, it is simply preposterous for them then to argue that the Mormon church cannot be criticized and protested because they are a religion..."
there's more:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th…
14
I did not know the sisters have a curtain they use to curse people. Has anyone seen it? Is it beaded, does it have fringe? Where can I get one?
15
So where is the pro-gay religious leader stepping up to tell the world that the wild fires in southern California must be God's terrible retribution for the passage of Prop. 8? You know that if it had gone the other way Hagee would be blaming the fires on its failure...
16
Is there anyone against gay rights who's NOT religious?
Is there any anti-gay marriage argument whatsoever that comes from a non-religious stance?
Is there any anti-gay marriage argument whatsoever that comes from a non-religious stance?
18
why? is it a surprise that most all people against gay marriage are against it based on religious principle?
still, there are, as dan put, studies done by bigots for bigots to justify bigotry, and not all the rationale is specifically religious. faulty, but not religious.
still, there are, as dan put, studies done by bigots for bigots to justify bigotry, and not all the rationale is specifically religious. faulty, but not religious.
19
This is awesome I hope it goes on until stupid religious minority stops harassing gay people everywhere. Don't listen to all the people telling you to be tolerant and walk on by. No major human rights victory was achieved by walking by. RIOT all the way, so people can see that you are fed up!!!
20
I'm not buying that account at all, either. There's just no way. Also, I note the parts where he got a bit vague about stuff that was happening... like when he said people were spitting at them and "maybe" urinating.
22
@19, you're wrong. Quite the opposite; no civil rights victory has ever been won by rioting. Nobody cares if you are "fed up"; what moves hearts and minds is concrete evidence of moral authority.
Think about the images that won the battles for African-Americans in the 1950s and 60s. It sure as hell wasn't Black Panthers marching with rifles in Oakland. It was people sitting in the front of buses and at lunch counters, people being turned away from schools and sprayed with firehoses. The angry faces of the whites in Little Rock? Those people lost. Don't be those people.
I think there should be an organized campaign to make the denied rights of gays and lesbians more visible. Right now, it looks a bit like gays just want to get married for the symbolism of it -- "honor our love too", the signs say. But gay rights aren't about symbolism. They're about actual RIGHTS that are denied.
The passage in Dan Savage's book where he is refused information about his DOG from a veterinarian because he's "not family" may seem trivial to some, but it was very effective, because it was very explicit. Go in that direction. If HRC was worth a damn, they'd be making television ads showing the true story of someone being denied access to his or her partner's hospital room.
Remember, the angry ones always lose. Fred Phelps is immensely damaging to the Christianist cause, not to ours. Don't be Fred Phelps.
Think about the images that won the battles for African-Americans in the 1950s and 60s. It sure as hell wasn't Black Panthers marching with rifles in Oakland. It was people sitting in the front of buses and at lunch counters, people being turned away from schools and sprayed with firehoses. The angry faces of the whites in Little Rock? Those people lost. Don't be those people.
I think there should be an organized campaign to make the denied rights of gays and lesbians more visible. Right now, it looks a bit like gays just want to get married for the symbolism of it -- "honor our love too", the signs say. But gay rights aren't about symbolism. They're about actual RIGHTS that are denied.
The passage in Dan Savage's book where he is refused information about his DOG from a veterinarian because he's "not family" may seem trivial to some, but it was very effective, because it was very explicit. Go in that direction. If HRC was worth a damn, they'd be making television ads showing the true story of someone being denied access to his or her partner's hospital room.
Remember, the angry ones always lose. Fred Phelps is immensely damaging to the Christianist cause, not to ours. Don't be Fred Phelps.
24
The Cross was an instrument of torture upon which Jesus was crucified for standing up against the human powers that be and for the disenfranchised.
That the disenfranchised tore a cross from the hands of their persecutor and stomped on it was not just an act of poetic justice, but a beautifully spiritual moment.
That the disenfranchised tore a cross from the hands of their persecutor and stomped on it was not just an act of poetic justice, but a beautifully spiritual moment.
25
No Fnarf, I didn't say anything about rifles, but March in Washington for Jobs and Freedom was a real protest and it showed how many people were fed up, so was Soweto riots, you can't deny that those events played a huge role in ending the discrimination. If black South Africans were nice and quite they probably would still be under apartheid.
26
I was in Ptown during the annual drag brunch a few years back. There was a man dressed in black pants with a white shirt, holding a bible aloft as he walked down Commercial Street, quoting some bible scripture and encouraging people to repent.
At the time, I found him to be more amusing than threatening. I probably still would today.
I took a picture of him with his new companions walking down the street because I found it funny. Of course, I was walking down Commercial Street to purchase t-shirts at Provincetown Fudge Factory, so you can see the level of humor I enjoy.
The possible preacher's new companions? A couple guys in drag and a third guy, replying to his free speech with some of their own.
At the time, I found him to be more amusing than threatening. I probably still would today.
I took a picture of him with his new companions walking down the street because I found it funny. Of course, I was walking down Commercial Street to purchase t-shirts at Provincetown Fudge Factory, so you can see the level of humor I enjoy.
The possible preacher's new companions? A couple guys in drag and a third guy, replying to his free speech with some of their own.
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