Friday, November 14, 2008
Religion Tax the Church
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 6:34 AM
For Christ's sake.
The priest at St. Mary's Catholic Church in downtown Greenville has told parishioners that those who voted for Barack Obama placed themselves under divine judgment because of his stance on abortion and shouldn't receive Holy Communion until they've done penance.
Via Sullivan.
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1
I'm glad I wised up to their nonsense by age twelve. They can keep their ritual cannibalism. Secular government is "change we need"!
3
I was talking to my elderly mother last night. She told me that one of the old men from her church goes walking with the priest every day, and all they talk about is how awful it is that the Dems won, and that Obama won.
This is so patently ridiculous, as the old man has the time to walk around with that idiot because of his UNION PENSION and that idiot priest - who loves to gas on about how he was a hippy - grew up in some ridiculous little town in Nebraska that would have dried up and blown away if it weren't for FDR.
The parish itself is in danger of being closed because they need to consolidate the parishes due to lack of priests. They only keep him there because the Catholic hospital needs a chaplain, and nobody else was available. They were able to ensure the church building can't be demolished by getting it a landmark status (a policy made up by those godless liberals who don't respect property rights!)
The kids at the Catholic high school have to go to the public high school for advanced science and math classes they need to get into college. The ER at the hospital is clogged with uninsured, the town is a methy mess, a classic rust belt city, and the priest and the old people are worried about the Democrats and the black guy.
Except for my mama. She voted for Obama :-)
This is so patently ridiculous, as the old man has the time to walk around with that idiot because of his UNION PENSION and that idiot priest - who loves to gas on about how he was a hippy - grew up in some ridiculous little town in Nebraska that would have dried up and blown away if it weren't for FDR.
The parish itself is in danger of being closed because they need to consolidate the parishes due to lack of priests. They only keep him there because the Catholic hospital needs a chaplain, and nobody else was available. They were able to ensure the church building can't be demolished by getting it a landmark status (a policy made up by those godless liberals who don't respect property rights!)
The kids at the Catholic high school have to go to the public high school for advanced science and math classes they need to get into college. The ER at the hospital is clogged with uninsured, the town is a methy mess, a classic rust belt city, and the priest and the old people are worried about the Democrats and the black guy.
Except for my mama. She voted for Obama :-)
5
See, the thing that makes me the most angry about this is that we didn't hear about anything like this when Clinton was elected, and he was pro-choice, too. I really believe, given that this guy is in South Carolina, that we wouldn't have seen a letter like this if the Democrat who was elected was white with a "normal" name - the article points out that the priest used his whole name in his letter.
Things like this make me glad I finally got away from the Catholic church. My current church doesn't tell its congregants how to vote, and pretty much stays out of politics, except to decry situations in the world where there are human rights violations happening.
Things like this make me glad I finally got away from the Catholic church. My current church doesn't tell its congregants how to vote, and pretty much stays out of politics, except to decry situations in the world where there are human rights violations happening.
6
@5: I seem to remember very similar stories where the priest demands their parishioners vote Republican from at least the last couple elections.
7
That priest is the kind of dickwad my dad would try to drive ten miles to avoid having serve at Mass for him. Locally he found St. Patrick's and St. Joseph's more or less okay, though nowhere in Seattle at the time did he find the kind of radical left parish he'd left behind in Madison. He was more one of the Dorothy Day serve-the-poor, fight-the-power kind of Catholics.
At the time, he was stuck living on Queen Anne, and their St. Anne's parish was run by a head priest who insisted on clumsily injecting his conservative politics in the homilies now and then. We went a few times when Dad was too lazy to drag us to Capitol Hill on the bus - he'd be careful to talk with me about the sermon to see if I had spotted that priest's bullshit, and if the head priest was out, he'd note how much better, alive and decent, the junior ones were. If he were alive Dad would be sad to see a dick like the St. Mary's guy spread his crap on the internet, but not surprised.
At the time, he was stuck living on Queen Anne, and their St. Anne's parish was run by a head priest who insisted on clumsily injecting his conservative politics in the homilies now and then. We went a few times when Dad was too lazy to drag us to Capitol Hill on the bus - he'd be careful to talk with me about the sermon to see if I had spotted that priest's bullshit, and if the head priest was out, he'd note how much better, alive and decent, the junior ones were. If he were alive Dad would be sad to see a dick like the St. Mary's guy spread his crap on the internet, but not surprised.
8
When i was in catholic middle school, a nun told me that it was a grave sin to buy anything by Madonna.
years later, after hearing Hard Candy, I finally agreed, and confessed.
years later, after hearing Hard Candy, I finally agreed, and confessed.
9
This is not a priest, this a bullying boy who abuses his power. The parishioners should take this opportunity to rein his ass in. As in, taking the body of Christ into their OWN hands.
10
Revoke their bloody non-profit status. A "liberal" church was investigated in 2004 for a "what would Jesus do?" sermon. This is *far* more egregious.
13
Nice separation of church and state you Americans have.
Do you think the SC priest forgot which candidate had the Catholic running mate?
Do you think the SC priest forgot which candidate had the Catholic running mate?
14
let's not forget all the liberal catholic churches in this country, as well. my impression is that they only run second to the unitarians in that regard. my mother-in-law goes to one, for instance. and my aunt-in-law, the catholic nun, is in some ways further to the left than i am.
15
"Though nature lavishes much upon your people, their circumstances are strait. But this is not the effect of their laziness; this general paralysis has its source in your policy which, from maintaining the people in dependence, shuts them out from wealth; their ills are thus rendered beyond remedy, and the political state is in a situation no less grave than the civil government, since it must seek its strength in its very weakness.
Your apprehension, Ferdinand, lest someone discover the things I have been telling you leads you to exile arts and talents from your realm.
You fear the powerful eye of genius, that is why you encourage ignorance. Tis opium you feed your people, so that, drugged, they do not feel their hurts, inflicted by you.
And that is why where you reign no establishments are to be found giving great men to the homeland; the rewards due knowledge are unknown here, and as there is neither honor nor profit in being wise, nobody seeks after wisdom.
I have studied your civil laws, they are good, but poorly enforced, and as a result they sink into ever further decay. And the consequences thereof?
A man prefers to live amidst their corruption rather than plead for their reform, because he fears, and with reason, that this reform will engender infinitely more abuses than it will do away with; things are left as they are."
-Marquis de Sade's Juliette, published in 1797
Your apprehension, Ferdinand, lest someone discover the things I have been telling you leads you to exile arts and talents from your realm.
You fear the powerful eye of genius, that is why you encourage ignorance. Tis opium you feed your people, so that, drugged, they do not feel their hurts, inflicted by you.
And that is why where you reign no establishments are to be found giving great men to the homeland; the rewards due knowledge are unknown here, and as there is neither honor nor profit in being wise, nobody seeks after wisdom.
I have studied your civil laws, they are good, but poorly enforced, and as a result they sink into ever further decay. And the consequences thereof?
A man prefers to live amidst their corruption rather than plead for their reform, because he fears, and with reason, that this reform will engender infinitely more abuses than it will do away with; things are left as they are."
-Marquis de Sade's Juliette, published in 1797
16
I get the impression the Catholic Church (and the Mormon church, for that matter) is in that AIG category of "too big to fail," i.e. too many members to seriously attempt to rein in. Too bad, because these large, wealthy institutions seem to have the biggest problem reconciling themselves with the idea that churches in this country are keep their damn hands off of secular political power.
17
Must be another of those liberal catholic churchs that this priest if part of:
http://www.insidebayarea.com/search/ci_1…
Remember when Rome sent a "guardian bishop" to Seattle to keep Hunthausen in line for in what in essence was being too liberal?
http://www.insidebayarea.com/search/ci_1…
Remember when Rome sent a "guardian bishop" to Seattle to keep Hunthausen in line for in what in essence was being too liberal?
19
@6 - yes, and they shouldn't, or they should be taxed (well, if you want my opinion, any church that makes any kind of political statements should be taxed). That is one of the reasons I left. I got tired of the "election guides" they published every year that highlighted one main issue - abortion. It didn't matter what the candidates other stances were, the ones that were listed at the top in voting preference (not an endorsement - whoever puts those together was too savvy to use that word) were the ones who were anti-abortion.
20
Wow, how Spiritually bankrupt can one old man get?!?! And what the hell is up with using the whole name in the letter?!? I've never seen anybody say anything knocking Sen. McCain and feel the need to call him 'John Sidney McCain III' or 'Sarah Louise Heath Palin', so why does everybody knocking Pres-to-be Obama have to throw in the 'Hussein' bit? Buzz Word Scar Tactics Gone Wild!!! I think these people will collectivly shit their pants January 20th, when they hear him say "I, Barack Hussein Obama, do solemnly swear..." and maybe that will help take the load off the shit for brains they're using now!
23
The ACLU Liberal in me trembles with anger even as the Rational Agnostic shudders in giggles that someone's upset they are being denied superstitious ritual claptrack over a presidential vote. Such is the life of the political Gemini.
To the priest, I can only say, This is MY body, EAT IT. Hunhh.
To the priest, I can only say, This is MY body, EAT IT. Hunhh.
24
Sirkowski @21, thanks for "papists"! It reminds me of reading The Three Musketeers as a kid. I was too proud to ask anyone and too lazy to look it up, so just assumed it meant "people who pape" and skipped ahead to the swordplay.
26
A couple of things to remember:
The current pope was a Nazi. The previous pope fought against the Nazis.
Much of the jihad movement is fueled by revenge over the Crusades - papal sponsored killing sprees over 700 years ago.
An organization that has more blood on its hands, from around the world, than any other now has the gall to call itself "pro-life".
Would it be too much to ask for earthquakes to simultaneously level Mecca, Jerusalem & Rome? (preferably during the Haj, Passover & Easter)
The current pope was a Nazi. The previous pope fought against the Nazis.
Much of the jihad movement is fueled by revenge over the Crusades - papal sponsored killing sprees over 700 years ago.
An organization that has more blood on its hands, from around the world, than any other now has the gall to call itself "pro-life".
Would it be too much to ask for earthquakes to simultaneously level Mecca, Jerusalem & Rome? (preferably during the Haj, Passover & Easter)
27
Something similar to this happened a few weeks before the election in a Dallas church a friend of mine's family belongs to. Apparently, the priest read a letter from the bishop saying if you vote for someone pro-choice, you're going to hell. A bunch of people got up and walked out.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/…
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/…
28
Of course, when a preacher espouses any sort of political view that the RNC doesn't like, the feds send in heavies to investigate the church and threaten to take away their tax exempt status.
Nice double standard.
Nice double standard.
29
Everywhere there are a majority of educated people the mother church is dying. Seems their only option for growth is to go where the poor and uneducated don't have the tools to smell what a crock of shit it all is.
30
jf@17, obviously that is not one of the liberal catholic churches i was referring to. why so snide? yes, you will be able to cough up right-wing asshole catholic churches with the click of a button. my point wasn't that those churches didn't exist, but that plenty liberal ones do, too. there is a deepening divide between the catholic hierarchy and the lay clergy. this divide has been quite dramatic in latin america, especially. and the hippies and gays who are employed by catholic charities are legion. and yes, we should revoke tax-exempt status for all churches, or at least the ones who get reported for political advocacy of ANY kind.
32
@30 is right. Before I saw the light and left the Catholic church, I worked as a youth minister at a church that was, at the time, very liberal theologically (though not politically - I am in the deep south, after all, in a state (Louisiana) that many have said is the center of the Republican base now). There was always a tension in that parish with the institutional church.
Of course, this is also the parish that fired me because I wanted to bring more community service and spiritual activities into the youth ministry and because my background (working class and northern) "didn't mesh with the background of the congregation" (wealthy, privledged, and southern). I guess they were afraid I was going to challenge the young people to do something worthwhile with the trust funds they were set to inherit.
Of course, this is also the parish that fired me because I wanted to bring more community service and spiritual activities into the youth ministry and because my background (working class and northern) "didn't mesh with the background of the congregation" (wealthy, privledged, and southern). I guess they were afraid I was going to challenge the young people to do something worthwhile with the trust funds they were set to inherit.
33
@31 - No, Catholics are expected to follow their conscience in matters of faith and morals. So the priest believes that, if they follow their consciences, they will not receive communion.
The Church believes that a well-formed conscience will always lead believers to the same stance that they are teaching. Of course, they are wrong. I can't tell you how many people I know whose consciences led them to use artificial birth control, for example. My conscience led me right out the door of the Church, and into one that doesn't dictate what I do in the privacy of my own bedroom.
The Church believes that a well-formed conscience will always lead believers to the same stance that they are teaching. Of course, they are wrong. I can't tell you how many people I know whose consciences led them to use artificial birth control, for example. My conscience led me right out the door of the Church, and into one that doesn't dictate what I do in the privacy of my own bedroom.
34
We should tax all religions regardless of political activity.
To encourage charitable giving by churches, there's the rest of the tax code: they can deduct charity expenses like any other taxpayer, or they can form a non-profit charity that follows all the rules of any other non-profit charity.
This is simple and fair, gets the government out of the business of determining what's a real church, and lets churches that want to get political be as political as they want. And it raises a shit-ton of revenue, while still rewarding churches that actually do good charity work.
Unfortunately, it will never happen, because the big churches like their handout and are rich enough to protect it.
To encourage charitable giving by churches, there's the rest of the tax code: they can deduct charity expenses like any other taxpayer, or they can form a non-profit charity that follows all the rules of any other non-profit charity.
This is simple and fair, gets the government out of the business of determining what's a real church, and lets churches that want to get political be as political as they want. And it raises a shit-ton of revenue, while still rewarding churches that actually do good charity work.
Unfortunately, it will never happen, because the big churches like their handout and are rich enough to protect it.
35
You know, when I read Christ's teachings in the Gospels, I read that he wanted us to help prisoners and the poor, and visit the sick. He never said jack shit about abortions.
Do priests have access to a different Bible than I do?
Do priests have access to a different Bible than I do?
36
But not taxing churches is a protection from them. Paying taxes connects the church to civil institutions and allows them to think that they have a say in governance. It's supposed to symbolizes a mutually agreed upon minding of each others' own business.
Of course... churches try and take part in governance anyway... I didn't say it works, but it's at least a symbolic improvement over the contrary.
Of course... churches try and take part in governance anyway... I didn't say it works, but it's at least a symbolic improvement over the contrary.
38
i find the current system adequate, with the tension between was is acceptable and what isn't. the idea of the church is too strong in our country to think that we could start taxing them. that is a solution that would not gain traction. but since most churches are "non-profits" anyway, i doubt you would see a huge windfall for the government even if the change were made; most churches would simply become non-profits. the same governmental scrutiny would be required to keep them in check.
the reason i like the tension is that i can understand both sides of the problem. on one one hand, i don't want a political group masquerading as a church. on the other hand, i don't see the problem with a church making occasional political suggestions.
i find that it is usually the anti-religion who want to tax churches. this makes sense, of course, coming from that perspective. this is because that usually when someone falls into the anti-religion mindset, they see the negatives of religion. without getting into that debate, the majority of our country still sees positives to religion. and people often base their vote on principles learned at their church, if not outright recommendations.
finally, regarding contributions to political candidates or initiatives. it makes sense that a church would want to play a role in determining the laws of the land. (that doesn't mean they have to forces their morality on others - a mistake they make all the time.) but our laws are often a reflection of our cultural morality, for better or for worse. perhaps a balance can be found that isn't simply in taxing the churches. perhaps any money put toward political groups, candidates, or causes should be taxed as income first? the downside is, of course, if you actually agreed with the position, such as those (few) churches against prop 8.
More...
the reason i like the tension is that i can understand both sides of the problem. on one one hand, i don't want a political group masquerading as a church. on the other hand, i don't see the problem with a church making occasional political suggestions.
i find that it is usually the anti-religion who want to tax churches. this makes sense, of course, coming from that perspective. this is because that usually when someone falls into the anti-religion mindset, they see the negatives of religion. without getting into that debate, the majority of our country still sees positives to religion. and people often base their vote on principles learned at their church, if not outright recommendations.
finally, regarding contributions to political candidates or initiatives. it makes sense that a church would want to play a role in determining the laws of the land. (that doesn't mean they have to forces their morality on others - a mistake they make all the time.) but our laws are often a reflection of our cultural morality, for better or for worse. perhaps a balance can be found that isn't simply in taxing the churches. perhaps any money put toward political groups, candidates, or causes should be taxed as income first? the downside is, of course, if you actually agreed with the position, such as those (few) churches against prop 8.
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