Thursday, November 13, 2008
2008 The Other Europe
Posted by Charles Mudede on Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 12:20 PM
A great point is made in the middle of this NPR article, "Obama's Win Brings Racist Remarks From Europe":
Julian Bond, chairman of the NAACP, says, "The big difference here is that the United States has been thinking about and dealing with race since we were founded. These countries in Europe are relative newcomers to the conversation about race. They are much less familiar with confronting their own bigotry."As much as I admire Europe's achievements in thought and art, I could never live there. Europeans are terribly unfriendly to Africans. And they make no effort to hide or overcome their low regard of black and brown foreigners. In America, I feel my blackness only part of the time; in Europe, not one minute passes without a strong awareness of the color of my skin. Europe will never elect an Obama.Until the 20th century, many European countries lacked substantial populations of racial minorities. In recent decades, the influx of immigrants, many from former colonies, has stirred racial tensions on the continent.
Bond adds, "I have always thought that European countries are more bigoted than the U.S."
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1
Never is a long time, Charles... after all, everyone in the US thought it would never happen here as well.
2
Europeans think they have more blacks, Muslims, Indians, you name it, than the US. And you've never heard special pleading until you hear a European react to proof that they don't.
3
On the other hand, some African-American and African-Canadian friends of mine said they found living in Germany a lot better than the subtle racism in both France and the USA, so it probably depends on what you're used to.
4
Europeans often assume that all African Americans are well educated and worldly, based on their experience from Black American tourists on holiday. Kind of like all Europeans think that White Americans are wealthy and have great teeth?
5
We were in Europe in September and everywhere we went there were Obama books in the windows of bookstores. People really seem to dig him there from what I could see.
6
I think you're oversimplifying the European mind. Each country in Europe has a different relationship to "brown folk", depending on their involvement in colonialism. Germany, for example, is probably one of the most tolerant countries there is right now, probably due to overcompensating for a history of intolerance, but also because they never really had substantial colonies outside of the continent (unlike France, Spain, England, Portugal, and Holland). There's not a history of slavery and oppression to contend with; there isn't an ugly background story for how those "brown folk" got to the country in the first place. France has a much uglier recent history, specifically with Algerian and other North African and Muslim immigrants, due to their African colonies. The French also have a stodgier cultural superiority complex (banning hijabs in schools, or dictating that French babies are all given government-approved first names, for example), probably because they've never been culturally smacked down the way Germans have.
7
from my experiences in paris, i'd have to say i see your point, charles. they police stare at black people with open and obvious suspicion, even when said black person is just doing his/her laundry at the neighborhood laudromat or any other mundane activity, even when there's just one and not a group. it seems reflexive, like no conscious thought has gone into the attitude and reactions to them. there has maybe been more consciousness since i was there over 8 years ago, but maybe not.
8
Charles, I must disagree (at least in part). While living in Germany for a few years, it was easy to see 2 things:
1) The young generation looked up to hip-hop and 'black music' (their term is that, literally, and is used in CD stores). It was very prevelant in most clubs, with everyone always telling me how much they liked it.
"The best black music comes from America"- quote from my german friend.
2) German women love men from Africa, or African American men. The darker your skin color, the more desirable you were.
"Dude, white guys don't stand a chance at these dance clubs" - quote from my white American friends.
Seriously, the younger generation (like 40 and under) are very heavily shaped by pop culture and obsess over African and African American people in general.
But that is Germany, so....there you go.
2)
1) The young generation looked up to hip-hop and 'black music' (their term is that, literally, and is used in CD stores). It was very prevelant in most clubs, with everyone always telling me how much they liked it.
"The best black music comes from America"- quote from my german friend.
2) German women love men from Africa, or African American men. The darker your skin color, the more desirable you were.
"Dude, white guys don't stand a chance at these dance clubs" - quote from my white American friends.
Seriously, the younger generation (like 40 and under) are very heavily shaped by pop culture and obsess over African and African American people in general.
But that is Germany, so....there you go.
2)
9
I think Germany might be an exception to the "unexamined racism" theory. Pretty sure it's come up.
11
@6: Germany is only now, after the enormous discontent of recent decades, beginning to allow citizenship for Turkish people -- people who have anchored their lives there, but had no "German blood". Immigrants from Kazhakstan with German great great grandparents could get citizenship easily, but the Turks were Turks -- there to be workers and only workers.
@8 - A sexual fetishizing of the black male is proof of racism, not argument against it.
I have long thought that this country, despite appearances, is less racist than Europe -- we obsess about race, but they dismiss it without really considering their thinking.
@8 - A sexual fetishizing of the black male is proof of racism, not argument against it.
I have long thought that this country, despite appearances, is less racist than Europe -- we obsess about race, but they dismiss it without really considering their thinking.
12
Depends where you live in Germany. An American friend on mine living in Dresden tells a very different story.
Even my lefty, educated, Londoner friends let slip some pretty intolerable racial attitudes from time to time. Their history is very different from ours.
Even my lefty, educated, Londoner friends let slip some pretty intolerable racial attitudes from time to time. Their history is very different from ours.
13
How do European blacks feel about gay marraige? Come to think about it, the gay marraige issue is one upon which Charles has remained silent. Whattaya say, Chuckles? You love the African-American culture, right? What is your take on the whole kerfuffle? Why 70%? Is it entirely religion? Is there something else? Fill us in.
15
@ 5 - they love Obama because he's not Bush and because they think he's going to be the President of the World and not the President of the United States.
@ 6, 11 - Germany is yet a different case, with its largest immigrant population invited from Turkey to work in West German factories in the 1960s and 1970s. Germany now has some 2.9 million inhabitants of Turkish background, 800,000 of them with German citizenship under new laws. But they have little political representation in the unified Germany of 82 million, with just 5 members of the 613-seat Bundestag.
Even Cem Ozdemir, Germany's best-known ethnic Turkish politician, currently a European legislator, is having trouble getting on the Greens Party list of candidates for the Bundestag — in part because of internal opposition to his ambition to lead the party.
"Germans can't believe a Turkish politician believes in a politics for Germany," said Mely Kiyak, 32, a German-born daughter of Turkish parents who wrote a book, "Ten for Germany," about the problems of ethnic Turkish politicians. "The Germans think, 'This is our country. Why should we elect a Turk? He might want to Islamicize the country."'
The Germans love Obama, she said, "but we don't have minorities anywhere, not in media, in politics, in the executive or the judiciary."
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/12/e…
Also, the political success of blacks or Asians or Turks isn't necessarily the best way to judge how a society discriminates against blacks or Asians or Turks.
@ 6, 11 - Germany is yet a different case, with its largest immigrant population invited from Turkey to work in West German factories in the 1960s and 1970s. Germany now has some 2.9 million inhabitants of Turkish background, 800,000 of them with German citizenship under new laws. But they have little political representation in the unified Germany of 82 million, with just 5 members of the 613-seat Bundestag.
Even Cem Ozdemir, Germany's best-known ethnic Turkish politician, currently a European legislator, is having trouble getting on the Greens Party list of candidates for the Bundestag — in part because of internal opposition to his ambition to lead the party.
"Germans can't believe a Turkish politician believes in a politics for Germany," said Mely Kiyak, 32, a German-born daughter of Turkish parents who wrote a book, "Ten for Germany," about the problems of ethnic Turkish politicians. "The Germans think, 'This is our country. Why should we elect a Turk? He might want to Islamicize the country."'
The Germans love Obama, she said, "but we don't have minorities anywhere, not in media, in politics, in the executive or the judiciary."
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/12/e…
Also, the political success of blacks or Asians or Turks isn't necessarily the best way to judge how a society discriminates against blacks or Asians or Turks.
16
I have Italian friends on either side of this issue. My friends from Southern Italy are quite conservative and prejudiced and vehemently anti-Obama. Whereas my Italian friends from a bit further north are all very pro-Obama and horribly embarrassed by their version of George W. Bush, Silvio Berlusconi. Sounds familiar, no?
17
I've never been to Germany, but France and the Netherlands are racist backwaters. I've heard Italy and Spain are just as bad, with some pretty intense misogyny thrown in. Please stop spending your tourist dollars there. I've never experienced such despicable overt racism, even in Japan or Korea, which are much more racially homogeneous and where they have legal discrimination in pretty much every aspect of society.
18
Western Europe is gonna have to get over their aversion to brown people if they want to increase their dwindling population and birth rate. If places like Italy and France down ease up on brown immigrants, their not going to have a lot of people left come the end of the century.
19
It's really interesting to read that, Charles, because my husband and I (who are white) both felt like there was much more overt racism in England when we lived there two years ago. Yet, we couldn't even have a discussion about race because people would immediately throw the "You Americans have the face problems" line in our faces. I wasn't sure if I was just missing something or not, but maybe it wasn't just me after all.
20
@11,12: I don't know, I didn't travel to northern germany, but the parts are were in, really, not much racism. Well, aside from the Turks. They hate the turks and the east germans, but that isn't a race issue, its a location issue.
But seriously, a lot of it is the presence of American troops who are racially diverse.
@15: Both germans and americans hate the turks. There are constant fights, and most American soldiers are banned from Turk clubs.
But seriously, a lot of it is the presence of American troops who are racially diverse.
@15: Both germans and americans hate the turks. There are constant fights, and most American soldiers are banned from Turk clubs.
21
Have to agree about their attitudes towards Turks, as OM says @20. And I agree it's probably more so near the Army bases that people are less racist towards black people.
There are many forms of racism, and some of the nicest people I've met have been incredibly racist in some way or form, so it can surprise you when you find out what they really think, after assuming that if they're nice they must be not racist.
There are many forms of racism, and some of the nicest people I've met have been incredibly racist in some way or form, so it can surprise you when you find out what they really think, after assuming that if they're nice they must be not racist.
22
During Jim Crow black people in Europe seemed to have found it far more tolerable than here. Richard Wright lived in France for quite a while, didn't he? And I believe black WWII servicemen also welcomed the chance to live in a place without white/colored drinking fountains, lynching (well, of black people anyway), etc.
23
here's something to consider: in italy or france, for example, have you ever seen a police officer or other government paid professional who was not ethnically italian or french? charles is right. europeans are much more racist than americans. discriminatory immigration laws are enforced primarily by wandering police officers checking the papers of everyone loitering around the streets who looks turkish african or pakistani. it's despicable and a complete disgrace that people elevate europe and view them as a paragon of civility.
24
I couldnt agree more with Charles. Ive traveled extensively throughout europe and the racism and there is overwhelming, specially in Rumania where I was mistaken for a roma.
Immigrants and people of color are completely out of the mainstream, and you never see policemen of other races, you never see mayors, governors or even council members.
2nd and 3rd generation europeans of non european descent still work service jobs.
And dont get me started on their brutal immigration policies. Italy actually considered laws where they would "mark" gypsies.
Europeans love to talk shit about intolerance in the us, but as a citizen-immigrant, I would say, despite all the anti immigrant crap you ocassionally get here, it is ten thousand times better than any european country including germany. and by the way, turks in germany are still not as fully integrated into german society despite numbering in the millions.
Immigrants and people of color are completely out of the mainstream, and you never see policemen of other races, you never see mayors, governors or even council members.
2nd and 3rd generation europeans of non european descent still work service jobs.
And dont get me started on their brutal immigration policies. Italy actually considered laws where they would "mark" gypsies.
Europeans love to talk shit about intolerance in the us, but as a citizen-immigrant, I would say, despite all the anti immigrant crap you ocassionally get here, it is ten thousand times better than any european country including germany. and by the way, turks in germany are still not as fully integrated into german society despite numbering in the millions.
26
I think that the problem of race in Western Europe and in the US is the same but using a different discourse. I have lived for 8 years in Spain and there is racism but it's very different from here. Now I'm living here and I see that people are racist too but in Spain they were openly racists whereas here it's much more dangerous because you cannot defend yourself. It's institutionalized. Here 'difference' has been swallowed by right wing discourse, as if having a black president made a difference... it's not about that... I'm shocked here when I see how neighbourhoods show some kind of segregation and the worst is that when you ask the response that I get is that if people are segregated it's because they want to. I have never been so aware of race as here (I'm South American) and I have never been so constrained and afraid of saying what I think... Multiculturalism is a discourse that will not present us as equals, we are simply homogenized as consumers, it is important to be different, to allow conflict in favour of understanding the 'other'. Being all the same, treated in the same way only erases your own culture and history. Here you have to behave in a standardized way and there is a normalization of what being a racist is and if you don't follow that protocol then you are a racist and I don't think that's solving anything. I think that the issue is much more complex than having a black president or not.
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