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News & ArtsThursday, November 13, 2008
Homo Some People
Posted by Charles Mudede on Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:49 PM
From the comments to this post:
How do European blacks feel about gay marriage? Come to think about it, the gay marraige issue is one upon which Charles has remained silent. Whattaya say, Chuckles? You love the African-American culture, right? What is your take on the whole kerfuffle? Why 70%? Is it entirely religion? Is there something else? Fill us in.
I'm actually angry with black Americans on this point. The whole homophobia thing is just so tired. I wish they would get over it and move on. Let gays be gays, let love be love, let marriage be marriage for all. In fact, I find it rather ridiculous that out of the three main racial groups in California, the one with the most out-of-wedlock births, the lowest marriage rates, and the highest never-married rates had the nerve to vote in favor of Prop 8. What the fucking fuck!
That said, here is something I wrote seven years ago in the Gay Pride issue:
When the former president of Zimbabwe, Caanan Banana, was tried and convicted for sodomy in the late '90s, most Africans believed that his advanced Western education (he was a learned theologian) induced his abnormal desires for men. Excessive exposure to Western culture had turned a once normal African man with a standard sexual appetite into a European libertine with an appetite for the bizarre gay sex. This is how homosexuality is represented in Africa's popular imagination: It is the ultimate sign of white culture, the final product of democratic freedom.White culture is corrupt, exemplifying nothing less than the fruit of knowledge that awakens the innocent mind to evil delights, unearthly pleasures. Too much white knowledge will dislocate the African man from what Disney's Lion King describes as "the cycle of life." Indeed, while the West has blamed African promiscuity for AIDS, Africans have always accused Western decadence for bringing the deadly disease to Africa.
Black America also makes similar connections between white decadence/gay lifestyle and corruption. In a class I taught many years ago at Seattle Central Community College, a black student had no problem linking J. Edgar Hoover's purported homosexuality with the fact that he was, one, white, and two, morally bankrupt. To find the most hysterical expression of this attitude (white culture = decadence = homosexuality) in black America, you only have to read the once popular book Soul on Ice, by Eldridge Cleaver, which argues that "Negro homosexuals" were "touching their toes" for white men because their sense of masculinity had been corrupted by white culture.
Whether in Africa or America, for blacks, homosexuality takes the form of the foreign, the rupture on the border of black culture that initiates the fall from grace. This perception not only locates black gay men as dysfunctional or sick (which is what black homophobia shares with white homophobia), but also as race traitors, sexual Uncle Toms who have surrendered their black identity to European decadence.
The upshot of this African and black American reading of black homosexuality is that it imagines black gay sex as only one type of intercourse: a white man penetrating a black man. Such inflexible and phallocentric attitudes (penetration = power, penetrated = powerlessness) are not only sexist, as Michele Wallace points out in Black Macho, but they also make black gay sex invisible. In black culture, we can't imagine two black men having sex. Such intercourse is invisible, incommunicable, obliterated by the image of an older white master exacting pleasure from a prone young black slave
2
Canaan Banana.
And we thought people would have problems with "Barack Obama."
I am personally waiting for the day I can cast my vote and say "Tally me for Banana!"
And we thought people would have problems with "Barack Obama."
I am personally waiting for the day I can cast my vote and say "Tally me for Banana!"
4
It all makes sense if you remember that scene in Menace II Society with O-dog, the bum, and the cheeseburgers.
5
What's really hurtful about the Prop 8 vote is that of all people in this nation, African Americans should know what it feels like to be hated for who you are, to have insane lies told about you and your family, and to have your rights mocked or taken away.
I really hope that we can move past this ugly episode in a constructive way and take the high road in working with the African American community. Their success is our success and vice versa.
I really hope that we can move past this ugly episode in a constructive way and take the high road in working with the African American community. Their success is our success and vice versa.
7
Your response to the comment is the most interesting and, I think, honest thing I've seen you write. Leave the fusty speeches for essays in peer-reviewed journals, and I think you'll find more fans. It's all about the audience.
8
It always seemed to me that the biblical and early Christian scorn for homosexuality was rooted in its association with Roman decadence. Homosexuality was a common practice in Roman society, though in a very different kind of way than what is seen today. The conflict between Christians and gay marriage can be seen as the clash between old prejudices against Roman style homosexuality meeting a new kind of homosexuality that sees itself as excluded from traditional social institutions.
10
Too bad gays didn't vote overwhelmingly to ban straight marriage, or Bailo would finally have a point.
Oh well, keep trying big guy.
Oh well, keep trying big guy.
11
Homophobia is only one of the problems facing Black America, and I'd even argue that they as a community don't see homophobia as a problem. For black Americans, poverty, crime, high rates of incarceration, a decline in young people finishing school and even fewer entering college, low rates of marriage, but high rates of divorce, single-mother parenting and missing fathers, and skyrocketing HIV rates (to which many black churches turn a blind eye) are all going to trump getting along with the gays. Add to that the hyper-masculinity among many black men as a psychological and social response to real or perceived racism and oppression, and you get a hard shell that's tough to crack. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but don't be surprised when the door gets slammed in your face. I spent years working on diversity issues in the community, and trying to engage our fellow black citizens (outside of the GLBT community) was like talking to a brick wall.
12
Can we all stop speaking as though the Black and Gay communities are totally separate and mutually exclusive?
14
What I think is sad is so many gays unequivocally support the rights of blacks and other racial minorities. If there was a bill that forced every company, no matter what their size, to establish racial quotas in hiring I would guarantee over 75% of gays would vote in favor of it! The other self-hating and closeted 25% of gays probably voted for John McCain anyway. But 70% voting against gays?! That is sad and insulting...
15
What percentage of women in America have abortions? Would want to have an abortion? Rights are not requirements. They are not popularity contests. Rights are rights.
17
One, it's not 70%. (It's like inventing the wheel with every post.)
Two, with regards to "I find it rather ridiculous that out of the three main racial groups in California...," the three main racial groups in California are white (43%), Hispanic or Latino (36%), and Asian (12%). Black people constitute 7% of the population of the state. That's not to nitpick; it's to provide the proper perspective on this on-going fascination with what black voters did.
But your point stands. The disproportionate support of Proposition 8 by African Americans was reprehensible, as is the level of homophobia in black culture.
Your post and previous article point out how complicated the issue is. Culture cuts to the soul, and it is hard to identify how far it reaches and what can be done to remove it.
In addition to black culture associating homosexuality with white decadence, there are other hurdles we have to get over.
There's also the cultural impact of the church and religion, not just because faith puts itself beyond reason and rational arguments, but also because in the black community, the church and church leaders carry impact beyond the religious and into the secular. The black church is political and social, and its influence is pervasive. Here, it has to be re-directed.
Finally, the emasculation of the black male in the culture and in history, has cultivated straight gender identities and roles in the black community that are particularly threatened by the existence of homosexuality. Finding a way to acknowledge and embrace homosexuality without creating feedback for the emasculating narratives of the dominant culture is just one more of the resistances we'll have to overcome.
None of the problems appeared overnight, and they will not disappear in a flash, either. But as deeply rooted and pervasive as our homophobia may be, we are not alone here. Homophobia didn't originate with us. It doesn't exist only within our ranks, and our homophobia, despite recent attempts to prove otherwise, is not as socially, culturally, and politically powerful as it in other groups. (If homophobia had less of a hold on white Californians, we wouldn't even be talking about this, sad to say.) We've all got a lot of work to do.
More...
Two, with regards to "I find it rather ridiculous that out of the three main racial groups in California...," the three main racial groups in California are white (43%), Hispanic or Latino (36%), and Asian (12%). Black people constitute 7% of the population of the state. That's not to nitpick; it's to provide the proper perspective on this on-going fascination with what black voters did.
But your point stands. The disproportionate support of Proposition 8 by African Americans was reprehensible, as is the level of homophobia in black culture.
Your post and previous article point out how complicated the issue is. Culture cuts to the soul, and it is hard to identify how far it reaches and what can be done to remove it.
In addition to black culture associating homosexuality with white decadence, there are other hurdles we have to get over.
There's also the cultural impact of the church and religion, not just because faith puts itself beyond reason and rational arguments, but also because in the black community, the church and church leaders carry impact beyond the religious and into the secular. The black church is political and social, and its influence is pervasive. Here, it has to be re-directed.
Finally, the emasculation of the black male in the culture and in history, has cultivated straight gender identities and roles in the black community that are particularly threatened by the existence of homosexuality. Finding a way to acknowledge and embrace homosexuality without creating feedback for the emasculating narratives of the dominant culture is just one more of the resistances we'll have to overcome.
None of the problems appeared overnight, and they will not disappear in a flash, either. But as deeply rooted and pervasive as our homophobia may be, we are not alone here. Homophobia didn't originate with us. It doesn't exist only within our ranks, and our homophobia, despite recent attempts to prove otherwise, is not as socially, culturally, and politically powerful as it in other groups. (If homophobia had less of a hold on white Californians, we wouldn't even be talking about this, sad to say.) We've all got a lot of work to do.
18
its really interesting to read all of the comments regarding Black People (Im black and I hate the term African American), and how their taking the blame for the Proposition 8 not going the way people wanted it to go. I really feel that everyone needs to understand that the real failure goes to the weakness of the california supreme court decision regarding Gay marriage and the fact that it wasn't strong enough to hold its own legislatively. Did no one think that it might be challenged
one way or the other?
Look personally to me I really dont give a S@#t either way, but some people did and they voted with their conscious. To them it was a decision that was important and so they voted the way they did. Do we really have the right to be pissed off because Prop 8 passed? Not really, What everyone should really be pissed off about is that in this day and age we allow others to control what happens in our personal lives.
C'mon people think!
There's the old adage: Opinions are like Assholes everyone has one and to some people they stink.
one way or the other?
Look personally to me I really dont give a S@#t either way, but some people did and they voted with their conscious. To them it was a decision that was important and so they voted the way they did. Do we really have the right to be pissed off because Prop 8 passed? Not really, What everyone should really be pissed off about is that in this day and age we allow others to control what happens in our personal lives.
C'mon people think!
There's the old adage: Opinions are like Assholes everyone has one and to some people they stink.
19
@18 you say "but some people did and they voted with their conscious. To them it was a decision that was important and so they voted the way they did. Do we really have the right to be pissed off..."
Of course we do. If polls showed 70% of Asians would prefer not to have blacks as neighbors...... If 70% of gays voted to re-install segregation..... If 70% of whites wanted to end laws that prohibit employers from discriminating when hiring based on race....
Are you going to say "they voted with their conscious. To them it was a decision that was important and so they voted the way they did. Do we really have the right to be pissed off..."
I
Of course we do. If polls showed 70% of Asians would prefer not to have blacks as neighbors...... If 70% of gays voted to re-install segregation..... If 70% of whites wanted to end laws that prohibit employers from discriminating when hiring based on race....
Are you going to say "they voted with their conscious. To them it was a decision that was important and so they voted the way they did. Do we really have the right to be pissed off..."
I
20
@5: I really think it's problematic to expect victims of discrimination to be better people than the people who oppress them/have oppressed them in the past. "Those to whom evil is done do evil in return," etc.
22
@20, so basically, "I was oppressed, and I hate your guts, so fuck off, and I'm going to screw you out of your rights. BTW, I get a 'get out of jail free card' because I was oppressed". Nice.
24
@ 22 - no, it's not an either/or. There shouldn't be a free pass, and there's shouldn't be a higher standard.
This and the Europe posts were both good stuff, Charles.
This and the Europe posts were both good stuff, Charles.
25
Nobody is holding blacks to a higher standard. And actually, I don't remember a single time that I got to vote on the civil rights of black people. EVER.
26
The style of language you use in this post and the quoted article you wrote is pretty different from the usual. It was classy and insightful, thanks Charles.
27
Charles just comes off as an ass kissing African. He is just corny. Blacks born in America have a different identity from Africans who still have strong connection to their native countries in Africa.
He can write what he wants but religion is king in AA communities. They left the Masters plantation but they took his religion with them.
Being black doesn't mean you magically understand being gay.
Being gay doens't mean you magically understand what it means to be black.
Reading the racist and self-righteous backlash over the Prop 8 vote has made it clear to race trumps my gender and sexuality to some gay white America.
Please stop pretending being gay equates with the Civil Rights Movement becasue it doesn't.
He can write what he wants but religion is king in AA communities. They left the Masters plantation but they took his religion with them.
Being black doesn't mean you magically understand being gay.
Being gay doens't mean you magically understand what it means to be black.
Reading the racist and self-righteous backlash over the Prop 8 vote has made it clear to race trumps my gender and sexuality to some gay white America.
Please stop pretending being gay equates with the Civil Rights Movement becasue it doesn't.
28
I don't know anyone who equates gay rights with the American Civil Rights Movement (all caps) but it is a civil rights issues. Black America didn't take out a copyright on "civil rights" circa 1962.
There is a reason the South African constitution included sexual orientation post-Apartheid. Civil rights is civil rights.
There is a reason the South African constitution included sexual orientation post-Apartheid. Civil rights is civil rights.
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