Wednesday, November 12, 2008
2008 / City / Homo Great—Now Everybody Is Mad at Me
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 12:03 PM
An e-mail exchange:
I'm as pissed as anyone about Prop 8—it was a horrible and stupid thing that it got passed, and I hope we all find a way to get it un-done. But why do all the nice liberal columnists that I usually love have to go and take a crap on Prop 2 as a necessary part of venting about Prop 8? I understand that many people enjoy eating meat, but does it really taste better knowing that the beast you're eating suffered horribly in its short, wretched, hormone-stuffed, beak-singed-off, never-able-to-stand life? Acting like Prop 2 a frivolous insult to gays is just passing the arrogance and injustice down along the line onto the smaller fish, just like the black voters in California did to the gay community. Do you really want to follow that lead?Prop 2 was a victory for compassion, understanding, and identification with needs and desires of others. Yes, I'm sorry you didn't get your marriage rights, but at least see that Prop 2 is a step in the direction you want to go, and dogging on it makes you no better than the people who voted down 8.—E.B.
no one is crapping on your prop. we're crapping on people who voted to give chickens rights while at the same time voting to strip same-sex couples of rights.—Dan
When you say "people who voted to give chickens rights while at the same time voting to strip same-sex couples of rights," you are crapping on Prop 2.If you said, "At least the voters had the decency to give chickens endurable living conditions, but they have a long way to go because they stripped humans of a valid right," that is being someone who isn't turning around and kicking their dog because they are angry at their boss.—E.B.
sorry, E.B., but that's just what voters did: create new rights for chickens—special rights!—while stripped human beings with families and, in some cases, children of their rights.—Dan
For the record: Lindy was the one who was out front on this issue. If anyone around here is poopin' on chickens, it's not me. It's Lindy.
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3
E.B. really should move to Seattle. That mindset fits in perfectly with those in the protest culture here.
4
I still agree with EB (but of course I'm a straight vegetarian, so what the fuck do I know?). People who voted for the chickens and against the gays are somehow supposed to be worse than those who voted for neither? I don't get it and it's upsetting, but animals being able to move their limbs is very different from people being able to express their love in a legal ceremony.
5
Animals are considered innocent pure creatures that were created for the company, consumption and enjoyment of humans. Gays are regarded as sinful, fruitless and detrimental to society. So it makes sense that the majority of people have opted to give chickens more rights than Gays.
7
I don't think pro-Prop 2 / anti-Prop 8 people are supposed to be worse than people who voted for neither. They are just more inexplicable. Though Hanna @5 gives a pretty good explanation of their mindset, I think.
For the record, Jon Stewart also made the connection between Prop 2 and Prop 8.
For the record, Jon Stewart also made the connection between Prop 2 and Prop 8.
8
I'm surprised the Mormons didn't fight prop 2. It's slippery slope. Now were saying you can't cage your veal up in tiny little pens. Next we'll be telling them they can't have sex with their 13 year old daughters in Texas.
9
If we accept the Proposition 8 passed for religious reasons, shouldn't Prop. 2 have failed for the same reason?
Didn't G-d give man "dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."?
Didn't G-d give man "dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."?
10
If it makes you feel better, I hear there's a proposition in the works to put gay chickens in internment camps.
13
Lesbians, Chicken, Terror. Somehow this all made me think of Poultrygeist:
http://www.poultrygeistmovie.com/video/t…
http://www.poultrygeistmovie.com/video/t…
14
You're so stuck in the culture wars, Mr. Savage. It's like you long for it to be 1994 again and you can square off against Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh. Always us against them. For you if the glass isn't all the way full it might as well be empty.
What good do you think you're doing?
What good do you think you're doing?
15
@8: The polygamists in Texas are FLDS, fundamenalists! If you would bother to learn anything about the religion before talking shit about it then you'd know that the FLDS members have NOTHING to do with the Mormons you despise. They were excommunicated a century ago.
16
Sorry, but as disgusted, angered, and saddened as I was (and am) at the passage of Prop 8, I'm with E.B. on this one. Prop 2 was a hard-fought victory that's been long in the coming. And calling what the voters did creating "new rights--special rights!" for chickens is akin to saying Abraham Lincoln gave African Americans new rights--special rights!--by signing the Emancipation Proclamation.
Every creature on Earth, from the beakless chickens and the funky-beaked Pacific Northwest hawks to the pissed-off homos and the homophobic assholes, is in this together. We are not all "equal," but one of these days we'll need to realize that we can all get what we need without having to shit all over each other. And that's what the proponents of Prop 2 and the opponents of Prop 8 are both fighting for.
Every creature on Earth, from the beakless chickens and the funky-beaked Pacific Northwest hawks to the pissed-off homos and the homophobic assholes, is in this together. We are not all "equal," but one of these days we'll need to realize that we can all get what we need without having to shit all over each other. And that's what the proponents of Prop 2 and the opponents of Prop 8 are both fighting for.
17
Clearly the idea that somewhere a caged chicken is standing up and turning around in its cage didn't send a chill of fear up as many spines as the idea that somewhere a gay couple was picking out china patterns.
Seriously, though, this reminds me of the "They can put a man on the moon but they can't make a decent 25 cent cigar!" cliché. What does one have to do with the other?
Seriously, though, this reminds me of the "They can put a man on the moon but they can't make a decent 25 cent cigar!" cliché. What does one have to do with the other?
20
as a gay vegan, im on team dan on this one. i wish they both would have passed, but it is truly bizarre that the voters in CA gave chickens rights while stripping homos of rights. it doesn't mean that chickens don't have shitty lives, it just shows how fucked up these props were. i made sure everyone i knew in CA voted yes on 2 and no on 8. but what i do wonder is that when counties like LA stopped giving marriage licenses immediately they claimed it was because the law went into affect immediately. so have they been fining all of these chicken/veal cagers starting 11/5?
21
Ok this is it - I'm all against Prop 8 but -
You can't even put Prop 2 and 8 in the same category. Or the same sentence. Or expect people to approach them the same way. That's what the mistake is. You've jumped a whole order of magnitude up the scale of suffering. Prop 2 is out there to correct HUGE physical and mental suffering, pain and anguish. Prop 8 imposes suffering, but not on the crippling scale that confining an animal to an immobile life does. Gays can still stand up and turn around, even with Prop 8.
Both are about suffering yes. But next time you stand up, or turn around, OR GO TO THE GYM, think of the chicken you just ate.
k that said, Prop 8 sucks and the people who voted for it can suck it.
You can't even put Prop 2 and 8 in the same category. Or the same sentence. Or expect people to approach them the same way. That's what the mistake is. You've jumped a whole order of magnitude up the scale of suffering. Prop 2 is out there to correct HUGE physical and mental suffering, pain and anguish. Prop 8 imposes suffering, but not on the crippling scale that confining an animal to an immobile life does. Gays can still stand up and turn around, even with Prop 8.
Both are about suffering yes. But next time you stand up, or turn around, OR GO TO THE GYM, think of the chicken you just ate.
k that said, Prop 8 sucks and the people who voted for it can suck it.
22
@16 -- prop 2 may have been hard-fought, but all it'll mean is that instead of having too-small cages in California, chickens will have too-small cages outside of California, and Californian eggs will carry a higher carbon footprint.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-…
"Egg prices probably will not increase for Californians, according to a study by the UC Davis Agricultural Issues Center. That's because out-of-state farmers, who already supply Californians a third of their eggs -- and could provide more -- are not affected by the new law, so they won't have to change their housing.
"California farmers' obligation to retrofit could increase their production costs by an estimated 20%, according to the study.
"'The most likely outcome, therefore, is the elimination of almost all of the California egg industry over a few years,' says the report, whose main author is Daniel Sumner, a professor of agricultural economics and director of the university's agricultural issues center."
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-…
"Egg prices probably will not increase for Californians, according to a study by the UC Davis Agricultural Issues Center. That's because out-of-state farmers, who already supply Californians a third of their eggs -- and could provide more -- are not affected by the new law, so they won't have to change their housing.
"California farmers' obligation to retrofit could increase their production costs by an estimated 20%, according to the study.
"'The most likely outcome, therefore, is the elimination of almost all of the California egg industry over a few years,' says the report, whose main author is Daniel Sumner, a professor of agricultural economics and director of the university's agricultural issues center."
24
@16, the difference is, new rights, special rights for chickens is accurate, creating a system where two humans have different rights based on skin color and repealing that isn't creating or giving new rights to someone (except in a semantic argument for new rights). Chickens and animals don't have natural rights. They are pawns of man and simply abide by whatever treatment man gives them. Human rights are based entirely on the concept of natural rights.
25
@19,
No, they're just slaughtered no matter what they do.
There are certainly countries that treat gay people like animals, but, in that case, they share equal "rights" with chickens.
Anyway, the sentiment @5 was simply ridiculous. Allowing an animal that will eventually be slaughtered a little room to stretch its legs isn't giving it equal, or superior, rights to human beings.
No, they're just slaughtered no matter what they do.
There are certainly countries that treat gay people like animals, but, in that case, they share equal "rights" with chickens.
Anyway, the sentiment @5 was simply ridiculous. Allowing an animal that will eventually be slaughtered a little room to stretch its legs isn't giving it equal, or superior, rights to human beings.
28
Um, I am sorry but the only way your argument works is if chickens were given marriage rights...they were only given the right to move a little more, something which gay people have had forever. I am sure voters would do the same if it was gay people in those tiny cages, so you can't say they like chickens more than gays.
29
We all just want to be mad with somebody right now.
And you're convenient, Dan.
I've been buying eggs from 'cage-free' hens for a while. They're only double in price ;-))
30
He's not saying people shouldn't have voted for prop 2. Only that it's ironic that people's sense of fair play can only go so far. I'm thrilled prop 2 passed. I think people were shamed in knowing that they denied the animals they eat a chance to even have a life in which they can stetch their wings and turn around.
And I think they should, and will start feeling the great shame of denying social equality to many neighbors, friends and co-workers.
Two fundy people I know cconfessed to me that they are feeling deep shame now for voting for 8. They thought all along it would be defeated, so didn't really give it appropriate consideration--and when it won an unexpected weight of guilt hit them and they each started to examine themselves and why they did it. Both tell me they wish they could take it back, and feel they did something very wrong...
I wonder if it their was a revote tomorrow we'd have the same results. I thank the noisy and the unhappy...it has made some people very uncomfortable, but it has also made some of them re-examine. Too late for now, I know
But next time...
Thanks Dan for making a fuss. Even though it became uncomfortable here in slog--I think in the end it will have been productive
And I think they should, and will start feeling the great shame of denying social equality to many neighbors, friends and co-workers.
Two fundy people I know cconfessed to me that they are feeling deep shame now for voting for 8. They thought all along it would be defeated, so didn't really give it appropriate consideration--and when it won an unexpected weight of guilt hit them and they each started to examine themselves and why they did it. Both tell me they wish they could take it back, and feel they did something very wrong...
I wonder if it their was a revote tomorrow we'd have the same results. I thank the noisy and the unhappy...it has made some people very uncomfortable, but it has also made some of them re-examine. Too late for now, I know
But next time...
Thanks Dan for making a fuss. Even though it became uncomfortable here in slog--I think in the end it will have been productive
31
@24
Human rights are not based entirely upon the concept of natural rights. Many incredibly influential philosophers have rejected the notion of natural rights (Hume, Bentham).
And I would say that humans can be seen as pawns of other humans, but that doesn't mean that it is right to treat them as such. Other animals also deserve better.
Human rights are not based entirely upon the concept of natural rights. Many incredibly influential philosophers have rejected the notion of natural rights (Hume, Bentham).
And I would say that humans can be seen as pawns of other humans, but that doesn't mean that it is right to treat them as such. Other animals also deserve better.
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