Comments On: Savage Love Letter of the Day by Dan Savage

Comments On: Savage Love Letter of the Day by Dan Savage http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/01/14/savage_love_letters_of_the_day Comments On: Savage Love Letter of the Day by Dan Savage en-us Copyright 2009 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:00:01 -0800 Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:45:00 -0800 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]> Posted by Mizz]]> Fri, 02 Oct 2009 05:18:05 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]> Posted by Mizz]]> Fri, 02 Oct 2009 05:14:02 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]>
if a man is attracted to other men three times as much as he is attracted to women then for every 40 people he is attracted to:

10 are female, 30 are male, 90% of all are straight so
9 straight females, 3 gay males for his prospective dates

so even though he is attracted to males three times as much as females, he is three times more likely to get a date with a female he finds attractive than a male he finds attractive

so is it any wonder he's more likely to wind up with a straight female?
Posted by nax]]> Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:17:11 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]>
Well, I've been stalked and lost my housing because of my bisexuality. Is that enough? Or do I have to be beaten up before it counts?
Posted by Hooray! Oppression Olympics!]]> Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:05:47 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]>
That said, l have a few thoughts that may be somewhat redundant, since so many of the eloquent bisexuals and gays here have said what l wanted to say. l am a poly bisexual. l originally began exploring the poly world because l was fairly clear that l wan't willing to give up one preference for the other, and the poly world seemed to provide me with the opportunity to love both. l've since found that l just really like people in general, and that l'm happier when l can love whomever l choose.

But this plays into the debates surrounding the number of bis who end up in opposite sex relationships/marriages. Because monogamy is the more common type of relationship, bis are often forced to choose one or the other in order to even have a relationship. As #151 points out, some are quite happily monogamous, and that's great. For someone like me, were l to choose a monogamous man, l *might* be able to get away with an occasional threesome or something in order to indulge my queer side, but since my bisexuality extends beyond the sexual and my love for women includes who they are, it wouldn't work very well. lt never did in my monogamous relationships before discovering the poly world, and it felt like l was just settling for what l could get while indulging his insecurities about my bisexuality. This would apply to any woman as well, although dating a bi woman makes things easier when she understands where l'm coming from.

For those who claim to have never met a real bisexual, l wonder if maybe that's because your worlds are a little limited. l have certainly known a number of women who were active in relationships with both genders, and have been for a number of years. l don't believe it's whining if l occasionally have an issue with the way l'm treated and viewed, because for the most part, l DO suck it up because l know my life isn't near as difficult, and the intolerance l run into is limited. However, it's not my fault if the little Girls Gone Wild exhibitionists decide to further fuck up society's views of the bisexual community, and l'm forced to correct misinformation that much more as a result. That is frustrating.

lt's also frustrating that being bi doesn't necessarily expand my choices. As many have pointed out, dating in the lesbian community is damn near impossible, which sucks, because l've met a number of truly wonderful lesbians, some of whom l dated briefly, and chose to break up with because of all the shit their friends gave them. Since there aren't many bi-specific gatherings/venues, it makes finding other bi women challenging. Most straight men l date initially say they don't have a problem with my bisexuality, but the minute being with a woman threatens to become a reality, they're not quite so comfortable with it anymore.

This is all mostly explanation for those who may not understand some of the bi challenges, and as Rob pointed out, l'm fairly secure in my sexuality, and don't have much problem with what others may or may not think of me. However, what l *do* care about is the fact that l really love my gay friends, and l've lost a few once l shared my sexuality with them. l'm not sure l consider them assholes for this, because there seems to be some valid issues among the gays and lesbians that lead them to be skeptical, and l can't say l always blame them. But l've contributed cash to several LGBT groups, l've marched (and represented at the Prop 8 march as well - what a wonderful turnout of all sexual identities and families!), and l've done so not only because l would like the right to marry whomever l choose, but because my support for the gay community is deeply important to me. Hell, they're the only group l can really identify with, and adding to their numbers helps all of us.

l guess l just wish that there were more unity between the two. Not a single bisexual l know has ever pretended they dealt with the kind of bullshit GL's deal with, nor do they approve of *anyone* claiming to be bi dicking their same sex partners over and using their bisexuality as an excuse. Which is precisely what those particular assholes are doing; it isn't their bisexuality driving them to fuck people over, it's whatever deep-seated, self-indulgent emotional and cerebral damage they have going on. lf bisexuality were the culprit for cheating, then they'd be the only ones doing it. As someone else here said, blame the behavior and the one perpetuating it, not the orientation.
Posted by freikja]]> Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:40:56 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]>
Chad, dude, nothing you are writing is actually real. Please don't act on your beliefs. They are delusional. See a psychiatrist or something. You're paranoid. I'm trying to help you here. To recruit you into reality. Gay people just aren't that well organized, fiendishly motivated, or powerful. We're just normal stupid humans with some different wiring in our brains, and we just want to live peaceful happy lives. Stop being so mean, stupid, and stupid, Chad. Calm down. Discover reality. Get help before you hurt somebody, and end up in jail.

Posted by toasterhedgehog]]> Wed, 21 Jan 2009 15:57:16 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]> You've got it backwards.
It's not that we recruit because we can't reproduce.
It's that heterosexuals have to reproduce, because you totally cannot recruit.
Just sayin'.
Posted by Pam]]> Sun, 18 Jan 2009 17:04:41 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]>

Given the violence and oppression gay men and lesbians continue to suffer, any resentment against bis in their communities makes sense as we bis can and do enjoy the luxury/convenience of not identifying. We lose complaining rights unless we're willing to put ourselves out there.

Many bisexuals do identify, though. Many of us. And we do it, even though we catch hell from a lot more gays and lesbians than we ever do straights, much of it hardly justifiable.

Many of us also "put ourselves out there." Many of us. I don't think it's an issue of "complaining rights," as much as it's a decision we need to make on whether or not we're going to complain.

When I read shit like SBW sent in, I think to myself: Quoth Dan Savage: "Suck it up, bitch."
Posted by jade]]> Sun, 18 Jan 2009 12:49:08 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]>
I was one of the five or so bisexuals who marched in the 1994 Pride Parade (At least I think it was 1994. I believe Dan Savage was one of the judges.) under the Bisexual Banner. I carried the banner, wore the t-shirt, endured the mockery (I believe Dan Savage made a snarky comment about the number of bisexuals multiplying. It wasn't really a big deal, I am what I am. Then again, it's also easier to feel this way while safely ensconced in heterosexual privlige.).

Although I've dated women--one for two years--yes, I am in a relationship w/ an opposite sex partner. It's not "spooky" that I wound up w/ a man--to quote Dan Savage--so much as a matter of course.

Lesbians have grilled me about my preferences, gay men have mocked me. I've endured crappy service at the Wild Rose, I think because I'm definitely not butch but not a super hip and trendy femme either. (I'm also not a leper. I'm actually kind of cute, but who cares.) Again, this lack of acceptance was/is really not a big deal, particularly when you consider what gay men, lesbians and transgendered people have suffered (Remember Brandon Teena, Matthew Shephard, and others who were brutally murdered? Then there's Prop 8.). It just made it harder to find women to date.

Not being accepted in the lesbian community shrinks the pool of available women to date. I've participated in bisexual organizations in the past which was fun for a little while. I met some nice people, but everntually quit going once I realized that I didn't have much in common w/ group members other than sexual preference. (By the way, it was true that some women in the group were on their way to declaring themselves lesbians, but only some.) There was a lso a lot of overlap between bisexual and poly groups and I'm just not into the poly scene. I tried dating one man and one woman at the same time (not on the same dates as I am not a Penthouse lesbian) and it was just fatiguing. I don't know how the poly people do it.

I think, despite my feminism, that I am a product of my socialization, meaning that I find it difficult to be the pursuer. I tried to pursue women a few times and it was really difficult. I simply could not tell if they liked me. I couldn't read their signals. (The woman I dated for two years was very direct. That helped a lot.) Again, I swear I'm not a leper, although I felt like one when women rejected me. (From those experiences I've developed a sense of compassion for men and have since tried to be kind to the men I've rejected. I bought one a beer, but I digress.) Add to this difficulty the issue of not knowing if a woman is bi--since Lesbians are out of the question--and it's just too complicated.

I've been w/ my male partner for 11 years. I love him dearly and cannot imagine him not being a part of my life. Do I experience attraction for women? Yeah, sometimes. I also feel attraction to other men sometimes too. He, in turn, is attracted to other women at times. So what, it's part of life. Sexual attraction is often fleeting and not every desire must be consumated. Being bisexual simply means that I find both men and women sexually attractive and am willing to have relationships w/ either. But, in this binary world you're supposed to pick a camp and that's what works for most people. (Actually, there are more than two genders too but my post is already way too long.)

Given the violence and oppression gay men and lesbians continue to suffer, any resentment against bis in their communities makes sense as we bis can and do enjoy the luxury/convenience of not identifying. We lose complaining rights unless we're willing to put ourselves out there. I confess that I'm rather lazy in this regard, especially as I get older. Beyond arguing w/ people, wearing buttons here and there, donating the stray dollar or two donated to good causes, participating in an occasional demonstration (it's been a while), I haven't done much. SBW needs to look at the larger picture. Unless you're willing to put your ass on the line--and yeah, I put my ass on the line, less and less as I and it get older--you can't complain.
Posted by know-it-all]]> Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:57:02 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]> "Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” hostility towards relativism and situationalism."

Good luck surviving in the academic world if you want to study homosexuality from any point of view other than the accepted 'innate' position.
No funding.
Nothing published.
No tenure.
No positions.
Academic freedom isn't free!
Posted by Professor]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:56:33 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]>
A "Cult Danger Evaluation Framework" assessment chart may provide insight.
You can rate any group on the points below and determine to what extent they engage in "cult" behavior.

How does the SLOG chapter of the “High Church of Homosexuality is an Innate Trait” rate?

What happens to sloggers who suggest sexual behavior is a matter of choice?
What happens to sloggers who question the Most High Reverend Savage?
How do the male white yuppie ‘beautiful people’ treat the rest of the GLBT community?
What special treatment is reserved for apostate Bisexuals?

take the test:

The categories are:

Internal Control: Amount of internal social power exercised by leader(s) over members; lack of clearly defined organizational rights for members.

Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s); amount of infallibility declared or implied.
(oooh, Anti 8 takes a beating here...)

Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members; amount of trust in decisions or interpretations made by leader(s); amount of hostility by members towards internal or external critics and/or towards verification efforts.
(crossed Dan’s ‘ditto heads’ lately?)

Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” hostility towards relativism and situationalism.
(‘choice’ anyone?)

Recruiting: Emphasis put on attracting new members.
(see 147 above)

Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s) of non-tantric groups; amount of control exercised over sexuality of members in terms of sexual orientation, behavior, and/or choice of partners.
(see treatment of bis this entire thread)

Sexual Favoritism: Advancement or preferential treatment dependent upon sexual activity with the leader(s) of non-tantric groups.
(consider fate of less ‘beautiful’ gays discusesed elsewhere on slog re: unsafe practices)

Dropout Control: Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts.
(if you ‘ARE’ homo no way you can drop out- no room for choice here!)

Violence: Amount of approval when used by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).
(Vandalized a church lately?)

Paranoia: Amount of fear concerning real or imagined enemies; exaggeration of perceived power of opponents; prevalence of conspiracy theories.
(checked under your bed for Warren or the Mormons?)

Grimness: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

Surrender of Will: Amount of emphasis on members not having to be responsible for personal decisions.
(You ARE gay. No thinking required or allowed.)

Hypocrisy: amount of approval for actions which the group officially considers immoral or unethical, when done by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).
(it’s ok to be bigoted against bigots. it’s ok to hate and deny the humanity of people who disagree with you on Prop 8)
Posted by you might be a cultist if...]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:30:07 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]> Public schools are full of 'supportive' adults eager to help confused kids 'recognize' their homosexuality. Aggressive litigation forces school systems to install GLBT support clubs (easy access to potential recruits)
Once a kid has been 'supported' (conned) into 'outing' them self there is no turning back.
MTV does not program music anymore, all day long programs that portray homosexuality as an idealized hip and cool lifestyle. The same for all programs targeted at adolescents and teens. Sloggers often note with glee that the rising generation is accepting of homosexuality, programed just as surely as Hitlers' Youth.
Do you know what happens to young runaways who arrive in the big city? Ever heard of chickenhawks?
More than most cult systems homosexuals must recruit because there is no mechanism to create new members from within (darn reproductive biology! envy the polygamists-)
Add the fact that the lifestyle burns thru (and burns out) the young and fresh and beautiful at a high rate. (disease, drugs, 30 is over the hill in the 'scene') Less desirable members of the cult (minorities, the not-so-beautiful) coerced to submit to unsafe sex as the price for membership in the cult.
Club Homosexual needs lots of fresh meat.
Posted by chad]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 18:07:04 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]>
Your whole "recruiting" bullshit. Accusing gays and lesbians of finding confused "young" kids and pulling them into something they really don't want, making them out to be predators.

This, along with your "choice" bullshit . . .

You've written some contemptible stuff here.
Posted by jade]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:20:51 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]> please elaborate
where did I get it wrong?
Posted by ?]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:58:59 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]>
And it's not truth, so there's that too.
Posted by jade]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:44:59 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]> Posted by YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:34:56 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]> Posted by Matt]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:21:36 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]> Posted by jade]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:11:56 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]> Also recruiting fresh meat into the system needs the fiction that homosexuality is an innate trait. You grab vulnerable confused young kids and sucker them into some homosexual encounters. If it is a behavior choice when they get sick of it they can move back into the mainstream. But if they buy into the notion that they "are" gay then they are hooked. Which is why getting into schools is so important; most kids are confused about life in general and eager to trash the norms of their parents; what cold be more trendy or hip at age 13 than deciding you're gay? The popular media, MTV etc force feed kids on the notion that being gay is totally cool. Again, it has to be a one way street; once you check into the Hotel Gay you can never leave. So the homosexual Cult masters relentlessly push the notion that homosexuality is what you "ARE". And 'bi's make that a harder sell, thus the grief from orthodox gays.
Posted by chad]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 14:05:14 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]>
I knew a man who ran a sperm bank in the Bay Area that accepted sperm from gay and bisexual men, as well as straight men (most sperm banks won't touch gay or bi semen, for the same reason that the Red Cross won't take blood from any man who has had sex with another man since 1982---a woefully outdated policy). The purchasers of sperm were mainly lesbian couples--but also straight couples and single women who were straight, gay and bi.

The purchasers of sperm would read a donor's profile, which had all his information: education, religious background, race, income, health history, hobbies, height, coloring, and sexual orientation. Evidently, they have a hard time moving sperm from bi donors. The women who were looking through the profiles seemed not to care if the donor was gay or straight, but if the guy said he was bi, they tended to lose all interest, even if the donor had an Ivy league degree and made six figures.

Totally bizarre, I think. The guy at the sperm bank thought it was bizarre too. It's not like the bi sperm was riskier in any rational way---all donors went through a rigorous screening. He said that none of the women explained why they eschewed bi donors---the guy at the bank suspected it was an unconscious reaction.

Posted by Patrick]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:13:00 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]> Posted by BarneyMiller]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:25:21 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]>
Oh my, thank God I came back to this thread. Gehannah, you are spot on, especially this:

And if gays and lesbians and transsexuals fell out in distress over every stupid comment made about gays and lesbians and transsexuals on television, they'd have no time for carrying on their lives.

Thank you, thank you!

People of all minority orientations and identities (i.e., non-straights, non CIS) have to have thicker skins. SBW needs to understand this.
Posted by jade]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:03:53 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]>
....."Kenneth Lay of the Enron Corporation was not referred to as a "prominent Protestant energy fraudster"..."Blagojevich is not refererred to as a "prominent Serbian American politician.."

think about how it applies and then convene a panel discussion.
Posted by NotSoGoodForTheBi's]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:01:44 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]> I don't know who you hang around with, but NOBODY has ever expressed surprise that I've never done a three-way.
And if gays and lesbians and transsexuals fell out in distress over every stupid comment made about gays and lesbians and transsexuals on television, they'd have no time for carrying on their lives.
Comport yourself like a decent person, correct misunderstandings courteously, and quit whining. If you want bisexuals to have a better reputation in the wider community, devote yourself to building the reputation you want.
Posted by Gehannah]]> Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:34:05 -0800 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Savage Love Letter of the Day]]> Posted by teresa]]> Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:22:11 -0800 The Stranger