http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/01/05/rapid_response Comments On: Rapid Response by Eli Sanders en-us Copyright 2009 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:00:01 -0800 Wed, 25 Nov 2009 02:30:00 -0800 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss in general (as opposed to shows with a high risk of trouble) are expensive. Perhaps measures like that make more economic sense in Israel, where the incidence of shootings and bombings is relatively high, but here they really don't. I've been to hundreds and hundreds of shows and have never once seen a shooting happen. It's pretty clear that different shows and different venues have different risk levels, just as it's clear that people in "the scene" have at least some sense of what the risk factors are. Requiring all shows and all venues to accommodate the risk levels of a tiny subset of shows would push many already-marginal clubs into the red, spending money they don't have to employ large security staffs that would sit on their butts doing nothing 99.9% of the time, and installing bullet-proof barriers where none will ever be needed.
Posted by flamingbanjo]]> Thu, 08 Jan 2009 15:51:02 -0800 The Stranger
If you are running an operation with elevated risk (y'all can fight it out amongst yourselves whether a hip hop club or show qualifies) there are *some* things you can do to reduce risk.

Harden the building. Take a look at club design at places where things are a bit frisky, such as Israel, and steal safety ideas as they will fit in your establishment or community.

Setting up non-emergency entrances so that patrons must take a 90 degree turn upon entry in front of a projectile (bullets or WHATEVER) resistant barrier makes the job of shooters and bad folk more challenging. It's not a bad idea that such a "forced turn" have some kind of grid or other ceiling to frustrate those as would toss some kind of badness over the top.

Similarly, repealing the smoke ban reduces (nothing will eliminate, but safety is a game of odds, not certainties) the number of folks lingering outside feeding their addiction (aka, potential targets).

Buildings are easier to fix than people or cultures. Usually cheaper and faster, too.

None of the above points at "hip-hop" - but more at risk management. Nor are the suggestions above the only measures available to be implemented to enhance safety. But what say we try them before we start in on the "hard stuff" of changing human nature or declaring various subcultures anathema?
Posted by Gc]]> Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:08:48 -0800 The Stranger
This is exactly it. By and large, people who have experienced no significant forms of oppression in their life, namely middle-class white people, especially straight middle-class white males, are incapable of processing the truths of oppression / marginalization. Yes, there are certainly some of them who through introspection, reflective listening and general human empathy can come to understand it, but by and large, people who have not directly experienced what it means to be a member of a marginalized group will completely disbelieve the effects and pervasiveness of that marginalization.

This effect is very clear in all of the comments about how "oh, well there are some positive role models amidst the sea of negative role models / negative influences in the these young peoples' lives, so it is 100% these disadvantaged youths fault that they don't pay attention to those isolated good examples".

or any of the tons of comments that show a radical misunderstanding of the simple truth that while music may have some role to play in all this inasmuch as it is an agent of culture, the music is a *REFLECTION* of people's lived experiences. Would more positive / conscious / non-violent hip-hop, especially in the mainstream, improve people's lives? Yes. But are people selling drugs on the street and taking out their aggression with guns solely because rap tells them too? Of course not. They are doing those things because the environments they find themselves in dictate those things, and then the popular culture they consume reflects those things, which then reinforces that behavior in a self-perpetuating cycle. But saying the impetus for change has to come from hiphop music, which is only a small part of the forces reinforcing this violence compared to lack of proper public education, lack of meaningful employment opportunities for products of substandard public education in the post-industrial service economy, etc. etc.

But most clearly of all, it is reflected in Fnarf’s view that it is the responsibility of these marginalized groups to educate him on his misunderstandings, to show him why he is wrong, what he is missing. Marginalized groups are forced to learn every little thing about the dominant majority, but the majority bitches when they are asked to have even a basic familiarity with the actual realities of marginalized groups. If you don’t believe this statement, you are fundamentally ignorant and blind to the social realities of the world around you: just look at gay people being forced to learn constantly about straight romance/sex/gender binaries, atheists being forced to have at least passing familiarity with and respect for religious concepts, women being forced to learn how to not offend men’s masculinity or self-image while trying to succeed. Minority groups are asked to learn everything about the majority at all times, I don’t think it’s too much to ask that the majority educate it self when on its own shortsightedness.

Unfortunately, this is never going to happen. And this is why it is functionally the hiphop’s community’s responsibility to educate people on the complexities of this issue, because there are not enough people who will see past their own blindness on their own.

And to everyone who keeps bringing up that perennially tired canard of “Koreans (or XYZ other minority) made it, so why can’t American blacks?” Go learn about even the most basic rudiments of race relations in the United States. You know, the whole Korean immigrants could get small business loans when American blacks couldn’t, Asians as the model minority, things like that. And to be clear for all the trolls (I am looking at you homey), I am not saying anything against korean’s abilities, cultural values, industriousness, etc. I think there are compelling arguments to be made about cultural patterns of success, but to completely discount the realities of American racism, especially when it comes to the black / Korean issue, is ignorant.

Posted by Alex Bernson]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 21:47:07 -0800 The Stranger
To the 206Proof folks commenting here - you've done more than I would have to have said your peace with these SLOG folks and the ones who have not gotten it yet are just not going to get it. I'd say you're wasting your time to keep commenting here - I thank you for taking the time to do your best to share what's going on for you.

Quite a few of these SLOG commenters seem to have a really distorted view of hip hop and appear to have zeroed in and are nitpicking on one detail (about the lyrics and posturing - and sometimes violence - that some artists/producers/whatever get into) to the exclusion of a lot of other things. It's starting to make me believe the only time they notice that hip hop exists is when there's a show at Chop Suey or Bumbershoot. Of course, if you read SLOG comments a lot, you know a lot of these folks here get really obsessive-compulsive and fixated about posting a lot of comments on stupid shit like someone posting a picture of dog poo or whatever (seriously). And too much of the time it seems the only reason SLOG exists is so some people can make a living from posting really provocative statements mostly just to stir shit.

I really didn't realize the extent of the unconscious racism that is showing up here. I say unconscious because I believe (perhaps foolishly) that some of the commenters on here would not be engaging in some the more profound examples of it if they actually caught sight of how they have attitudes, assumptions, and filters [a,a&f] that are racist. [There are other commenters who are being offensive consciously but there are assholes everywhere, aren't there].

Sure I expected some of the racist a,a&f because that's so common, but I did think that with a little dialogue at least some people would get some - even a bit - of the a,a&f the are showing in their actions. Maybe some have, but far more commenters than I would have expected are not. And I'm betting I'm seeing only whatever portion of my own attitudes, assumptions and filters that I'm capable of recognizing.

It's like I'm seeing commenters assert a viewpoint, and then someone challenges that view, and the original commenter still doesn't get it, and this happens over and over (and over and over). Why don't they get - I can hear what the people challenging them are saying, the people challenging them hear what they're saying, but the people being challenged are just not getting it.

I've seen something similar in some community meetings where what I saw were white people and black people discussing a neighborhood issue using the same words, and taking the time to do some explanation of what each meant by the those words and how the topic affected them, but still somehow communication was not happening - or more precisely I think the black people were more or less getting what the white people were meaning, but the white people were really not getting what the black people were saying.

It's like the white people were stuck inside of their own meaning/experience/cultural reference about the topic, and I guess they just had never had any experience in life that would give them any context for grasping the particular reality of the issue that the black people were speaking up about. At the least I thought (in this case) the white people would at least get that they are not getting something, just out of a basic respect for other human beings - that even though they were all talking about the same topic the black people were saying something about it that wasn't making sense to the white people - at the least I thought the white people would get that they weren't getting something.

But no, the white people kept asserting their viewpoint over and over again like it was the only possible conclusion about the topic that anybody could come to. It was weird to witness, and disturbing. Just like these several topics on SLOG related to the shooting at Chop Suey . . . there must be five topics on this going, and pretty much the same thing is happening on each of them.

It's disturbing, that with this much talk there can be this much failure to communicate, that with black and white people living in the same city - even sometimes the same neighborhood, they're living in two such different realities . . .

Posted by I am your Mother]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 02:50:03 -0800 The Stranger Posted by I do it for the lulz]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:29:37 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Billy the Fridge]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:25:53 -0800 The Stranger
I think he's just a btard.
Posted by fffffffffffffffff]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:01:13 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Fnarf]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:44:55 -0800 The Stranger
Mudede might be in there.
Posted by I Wonder If Champagne Champagne Roll Strapped]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:15:55 -0800 The Stranger
I'm definitely not Fnarf. My snarky level is not nearly refined enough to match his wit.

For now.
Posted by Reality Check]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:13:37 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Irie!]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:09:23 -0800 The Stranger
look, Saturday night's shooting DID NOT start out as a bar fight. The shooter was NOT a rapper, dj, promoter, or even a local music fan. It was a guy with a gun, a beef and a mission to kill. He came all the way from Everett to Seattle with the intent to commit murder against a guy that he'd attempted to kill before because he knew his target would be there. THE ONLY THING THAT MUSIC HAD TO DO WITH THIS SHOOTING, IS THAT THE INTENDED VICTIM WAS AT THE SHOW.

First Black Prez now goes by Prezwell Jackson, and has for quite a while.

Homey, you are nothing more than a heartless troll attempting to cause more pain and heartache for those of us who care about the victims. Get the fuck outta here with ALL of your bullshit.
Posted by Mack Long]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:04:56 -0800 The Stranger Posted by sock puppet #351]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:00:39 -0800 The Stranger
Nicely stated Fnarf.
Posted by Reality Check]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:53:03 -0800 The Stranger
No one deserves to die, and neither the young man who died the other night nor the one in intensive care "brought this on themselves".

I just want people in the scene to open their eyes and see how attitudes they adopt do have consequences. When you look for trouble, you get it. It's not about blame, it's about making it stop.
Posted by Fnarf]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:29:43 -0800 The Stranger
Doesn't make either of us any better or worse than the others. The folks on 206proof aren't the ones who did the shooting, they're the ones who are trying to deal with it, so don't try coming back with any "but we don't shoot no-one on this board" bs.

Grow up.
Posted by the_fog]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:21:16 -0800 The Stranger
We can get heated up when innocent people become involved.
Posted by So tired of it]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:07:49 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Billy the Fridge]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:05:06 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Fnarf]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:01:31 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Go away]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:57:01 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Billy the Fridge]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:53:05 -0800 The Stranger
For the record, my great-great grandfather and my great-great-great grandfather both died fighting to put a stop to slavery. What that has to do with an asshole with a firearm, I don't know. Maybe these ancient conflicts are immanent in modern black culture, but it seems to me that instead of dwelling on that blacks and whites would want to find a way out of that mindset, not wear it like a badge of honor.

I wonder if First Black President is going to change his name in fifteen days, when we swear in our REAL first black president? If he lives.

I am not insensitive to the suffering of these young men, and the tragedy of their deaths. They are horrible, and the rank stupidity of the disputes, whatever they are, that led to these incidents makes it worse. I wish that everyone in every neighborhood could live happy, fulfilling lives. And I'm aware that you are grieving, though not as much as their families are grieving. But I think -- take it or leave it -- that some introspection about the role ones milieu of expression has played, and continues to play, in what happened. What made the shooter knock on THAT door?
Posted by Fnarf]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:51:21 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Racism is my crutch]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:45:39 -0800 The Stranger
You must have failed the 'White Privilege' course at the Seattle Public Schools?
Posted by Teacher]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:43:29 -0800 The Stranger
1. Be aware of your surroundings and glean the best of what the world has to offer in experience.
2. Get that chip off your shoulder. When my family immigrated to the United States, we were never too proud nor too steeped in cultural identity that it alienated the opportunities that presented themselves.

American History X has a great scene that asks this question: "Has anything you've done made your life better?"
If you can honestly say that grasping on to the idea of a institutional and systemic racism, that keeps you down has made your life better, then we are at an impasse and you really have nothing to write about.
Posted by No one is above analysis or advice.]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:39:44 -0800 The Stranger