http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/01/05/shooting_at_chop_suey Comments On: Shooting at Chop Suey by Jonah Spangenthal-Lee en-us Copyright 2009 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:00:01 -0800 Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:00:00 -0800 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/3776…
Posted by xghost]]> Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:01:37 -0800 The Stranger Posted by g]]> Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:46:36 -0800 The Stranger
Posted by duffomatic]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:16:55 -0800 The Stranger Posted by duffomatic]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:13:07 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Rocky Bukkake]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:33:17 -0800 The Stranger
you gonna blame dimebag's death on stage on his music?"

Actually, both of those tragedies WERE somewhat related to the music. The Cap Hill rave nutter had issues with the rave lifestyle, and found his unfortunate victims to be somehow immoral. Dime's killer was upset over Pantera breaking up.

What makes these incidents different from the Chop Suey thing? Put simply, the rave guy and the Dime guy were both random nut jobs who had it out for ravers in general, and a few musicians who broke their heart, respectively, while the Chop Suey guys (like other shootings at hip hop nights in the last several years) specifically targeted certain people to whack over some perceived disrespect.

Contrary to popular belief, there are incidents of violence at shows featuring other styles of music. But these are mostly due to overconsumption, and usually don't get past the level of fisticuffs. I've seen fights at punk shows, metal shows, rockabilly shows, and several other types of shows. Not once has someone pulled a knife or gun.

It may not be PC to say as much, but the truth of the matter is that hip hop shows in Seattle have been "enter at your own risk" for years now. And yes, we all know that not only black youth listen to hip hop. Furthermore, we all (should) know that a group like Blue Scholars is about as much like 50 Cent as Merle Haggard is like Megadeth.

But the fact remains that for some reason some hip hop fans take the gangsta message to heart a little too much, and act out accordingly. In any popular artistic medium, there is a certain amount of hero worship, and behavior emulation. The problem with far too many hip hop fans is their inability to draw the line between acceptable emulation, like style of dress, and unacceptable emulation, like murder.

And yes, I realize that most rappers in reality likely wouldn't have a clue how to even load a gun. Yet when you glorify a lifestyle, you shouldn't be alarmed when it catches up to you. For example, Bon Scott (AC/DC's first singer) glorified drinking in song, and died choking on his own vomit after a binge.

Yet none of this accounts for the odd lunatic who thinks Judas Priest is speaking backward to him personally through their speakers, and takes a shotgun to their own head. Or the raver killer. Or even Dime's killer for that matter.

But it does at least offer a bit of insight to reasonable folks who would never commit such a heinous act, and serves as a warning that no matter how much YOU can separate the fantasy from reality, many hip hop fans can't. Tupac and Biggie are less idolized for their musical output than their respective images, much like misguided punks sadly idolize Sid Vicious. Truthfully, the real problem is how immature and quick to react with violence far too many people are, especially many younger folks. Throw in unhealthy doses of mindless idolatry, peer pressure, raging hormones, intoxicants, lack of education, and an underlying culture that glorifies antisocial behavior and misogeny and the time bomb explodes in the name of "keeping it real."

I write this from the perspective of a 41 year old white guy who remembers the early days of hip hop on the East Coast, when it was more about skills than lifestyle. Furthermore, while my tastes skew more to the rock side, I've seen my share of live hip hop shows, notably Public Enemy and Cypress Hill. And if you looked through my I Pod, you'll find NWA, RUN DMC, and Missy Elliot hanging out peacefully with Johnny Cash, Slayer, Jeff Buckley, Bruce Springsteen, The Ramones, and a whole lotta local bands.
Posted by Rocky Bukkake]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:15:09 -0800 The Stranger Posted by seattle98104]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:51:09 -0800 The Stranger ...what a travisty that these promoters knowingly let these guys perform
Posted by PORN VS VIOLENCE]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:33:12 -0800 The Stranger
i've gone to plenty of hip hop shows and this is the first time any thing like this has ever gone down.

honestly i think that the three posts that have been put up on this blog by the writers are actually misleading alot of people into believing that we stand silent on this subject. if anything they are causing more harm to the effort then helping it.
Posted by m sea]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:08:44 -0800 The Stranger
If there were a string of violent acts performed at Miley Cyrus concerts on a near-monthly basis, along with a misogynistic homophobic crowd it drags with it, we'd be shouting to ban the tweentwat from Seattle as well.

"If any of you actually followed the local hip hop scene once in a while you would know that a vast majority of the music has nothing to do with gangbanging or violence."

I support that, but the kneejerk support of every communal element of hip hop is ridiculous. There is trash in every subculture. Maybe it's a Seattle passive-aggressive thing, I'm an East-coaster and I see douchebags get away with things that people'd never tolerate in Miami. And no, not in a "shoot them to their face" way, but just in not associating with destructive morons and getting surprised when they come back to fuck YOU over as well.

That said, I'm sorry that this happened, hopefully something good comes from the shit.
Posted by there *are* things to be done]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:44:29 -0800 The Stranger
What happened saturday night at chop suey was a tragedy for all those involved. it affects everyone in the community, not just hip hop, its artists or its fans, or the families of the victims. it affects every last one of you. you sit here and crucify the hip hop community for this incident but how many of you actually know what happened? the victims involved? how many of you were actually there saturday night? how many of you are actively doing something about the violence? instead of just sitting on a message board talking about whats wrong with this city why don't you DO SOMETHING about it?

In case you are living under the rock that is this blog, someone was targeted from the get go on Saturday. That person happened to be at chop suey for this show. If the target went to a miley cyrus show, the shooter would have shown up to the miley cyrus show seeking the same results. In the end the target lived and two innocent bystanders are dead or in ICU. Yes, there is a problem with the glorification of guns and violence in hip hop. Yes, it needs to stop. But you cannot group everyone involved in hip hop into this stereotype. ESPECIALLY those in your own community. If any of you actually followed the local hip hop scene once in a while you would know that a vast majority of the music has nothing to do with gangbanging or violence. Alot of people involved in your local hip hop scene spend their free time working in the community to prevent this sort of violence from happening in the first place.

Show some respect for the the victims, friends and family, and everyone involved.


Posted by m sea]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:23:58 -0800 The Stranger
Not necessarily in rebuttal to anything you said, but every single one of us here are descendants of slaves. Every one of us, undoubtedly. Most of us have managed to let that wound heal and stop defining ourselves culturally by this historic oppression, and also stopped forming our identities based off of a thing our great,great,great,grandparents went through.

There's not many people here who's predecessors owned slaves. That is, unless you actually are a descendant of slaves. In which case, it's highly likely that you're ALSO a descendant of plantation owners. In other words, your great, great, great, grandfather WAS a slave owner. The decision to culturally identify with the slave and not the owner is simply an illusion you have to sell yourself to maintain a claim on that social 'wound' that is slavery. In order to blame anyone else for the crimes of their forefathers you have to accept equal responsibility for your own.
Posted by Stoppin ze throwinze]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:39:51 -0800 The Stranger Even knew about about a guy getting beat up at a bowling alley. Maybe we should've banned bowling then as well. I'm surprised that Football hasn't been banned either. I do remember seeing things happen at Seahawks games. But, I guess you wouldn't know of such things since you couldn't bring anything of relevance to the Slog."

Uh we're talking about murder, not little pissy drunken shoving matches. Your argument is useless.

@276 "Oh, and Africans aren't like African-Americans because they were NEVER SLAVES."

While I mostly agree with you, this statement is somewhat untrue, and not in the "well some Africans were slavers too!" racist talking point either, Europeans did a lot of fuckery with Africa well before and well after slavery in the USA.
Posted by .]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 11:25:57 -0800 The Stranger
What kind of 'educated black guy' (as if that's rare) are you dating that he has to 'ponder' with his white boyfriend what happened to the civil rights culture? It wasn't a fucking culture, it was a movement and they/we got our basic civil rights. Today, however, we have crack and therefore gangs and white folks think racism is dead and we are the cause of our own problems and slavery, drugs, etc should have no bearing on our culture at all. Not to blame all that, but come on, you can't say that it's not a BIG factor. We are in a whole different ball game that what our parents and grandparents were fighting 50 years ago. You might as well go around asking white folks why they aren't walking around like Donna Reed and rationing lipstick and cooking grease since we're at war.

Oh, and Africans aren't like African-Americans because they were NEVER SLAVES. Most other countries see a black American and they see us as the decedents of slaves. It's pretty blatant to them. But because we fear our own dark history, we don't see that basic truth about black Americans. That fact changes EVERYTHING. Seriously, if you don't know that simple, basic fact, then you are really really REALLY out of your league here.
Posted by Come on.....]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:57:00 -0800 The Stranger Posted by yawn]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:30:17 -0800 The Stranger
To the 206Proof folks commenting here - you've done more than I would have to have said your peace with these SLOG folks and the ones who have not gotten it yet are just not going to get it. I'd say you're wasting your time to keep commenting here - I thank you for taking the time to do your best to share what's going on for you.

Quite a few of these SLOG commenters seem to have a really distorted view of hip hop and appear to have zeroed in and are nitpicking on one detail (about the lyrics and posturing - and sometimes violence - that some artists/producers/whatever get into) to the exclusion of a lot of other things. It's starting to make me believe the only time they notice that hip hop exists is when there's a show at Chop Suey or Bumbershoot. Of course, if you read SLOG comments a lot, you know a lot of these folks here get really obsessive-compulsive and fixated about posting a lot of comments on stupid shit like someone posting a picture of dog poo or whatever (seriously). And too much of the time it seems the only reason SLOG exists is so some people can make a living from posting really provocative statements mostly just to stir shit.

I really didn't realize the extent of the unconscious racism that is showing up here. I say unconscious because I believe (perhaps foolishly) that some of the commenters on here would not be engaging in some the more profound examples of it if they actually caught sight or how they have attitudes, assumptions, and filters [a,a&f] that are racist. [There are other commenters are being offensive consciously but there are assholes everywhere, aren't there].

Sure I expected some of the racist a,a&f because that's so common, but I did think that with a little dialogue at least some people would get some - even a bit - of the a,a&f the are showing in their actions. Maybe some have, but far more commenters than I would have expected do not. And I would bet I'm seeing only whatever portion I'm capable of recognizing.

It's like I'm seeing commenters assert a viewpoint, and then someone challenges that view, and the original commenter still doesn't get it, and this happens over and over (and over and over). Why don't they get - I can here what the people challenging them are saying, the people challenging them hear what they're saying, but the people being challenged are just not getting it.

I've seen something similar in some community meetings where what I saw where white people and black people discussing a neighborhood issue using the same words, and taking the time to do some explanation of what each meant by the those words, but still somehow communication was not happening - or more precisely I think the black people were more or less getting what the white people were meaning, but the white were really not getting what the black people were saying.

It's like the white people were stuck inside of their own meaning and I guess they just had never had any experience in life that would give them any context for grasping the particular reality of the issue that the black people were speaking up about. At the least I thought (in this case) the white people would at least get that they are not getting something, just out of a basic respect for other human beings - that even though they were all talking about the same topic the black people were saying something about that wasn't making sense to the white people - at the least I thought the white people would get that they weren't getting something.

But no, the white people kept asserting their viewpoint over and over again like it was the only possible conclusion about the topic that anybody could come to. It was weird to witness, and disturbing. Just like these several topics on SLOG related to the shooting at Chop Suey . . . there must be five topics on this going, and pretty much the same thing is happening on each of them.

It's disturbing, that with this much talk there can be this much failure to communicate, that with black and white people living in the same city - even sometimes the same neighborhood, they're living in two such different realities . . .


Posted by I am your Mother]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 02:39:29 -0800 The Stranger The music isn't the problem. Stupidities been around far longer Than Hip Hop has. I've been to rock concerts where fights have broken out. I've been to mosh pits in Germany and watched people get stomped out. Wait the Oktoberfest, and a few other events in Germany where fights had broken out.
Even knew about about a guy getting beat up at a bowling alley. Maybe we should've banned bowling then as well. I'm surprised that Football hasn't been banned either. I do remember seeing things happen at Seahawks games. But, I guess you wouldn't know of such things since you couldn't bring anything of relevance to the Slog.
Posted by dlbiininja]]> Tue, 06 Jan 2009 00:17:39 -0800 The Stranger Posted by toddler]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:27:26 -0800 The Stranger
For real, these morons are going to just keep shooting each other at their shows over and over from the look of it.

Grow up. Be a fucking man. Stop blabbing on myspace or livejournal or whatever the fuck about your tiny penises and buying guns to mask your tiny penises and maybe you'll live long enough to show a girl your penis.

@268 "Seattle's a great city but a little soft. You just got to prepare for the worst and hope for the best."

Maybe your expectations are too low. I mean, the sad thing is just how little this sort of thing surprises us.
Posted by cycle of jock-slapping]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:37:06 -0800 The Stranger
WTF?

What is all this shit supposed to mean:

so i saw this on black senate's myspace:

-------------

ON SATURDAY NIGHT BLACK SENATE WAS IN ATTENDANCE AT CHOP SUEY IN SEATTLE.. THE MEDIA REPORTS THAT A FIGHT BROKE OUT WHICH LEAD TO GUN FIRE...... THIS IS NOT ACCURATE!!! THERE WAS A PLOT TO MURDER ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF BLACK SENATE THAT DIDNT GET CARRRIED OUT. MOST OF THE SHOOTING OCCURRED AT THE REAR ENTRANCE IN WHICH 3 PEOPLE WERE SHOOT. 29-E WAS MURDERED (R.I.P. MY DUDE! YOU WILL BE MISSED DEARLY!!!!!), OUR BELOVED PRESWELL JACKSON WAS STRUCK IN THE CHEST, WE ARE PRAYING HARD THAT HE PULLS THRU THIS. HE IS STILL IN CRITICAL CONDITION AND TRAMA FROM BLACK SENATE WAS STRUCK TWICE BUT IS ALIVE AND WELL. EVEN AFTER BEING SHOT TRAMA AND HIS GROUP DEFENDED THEMSELVES LIKE GENERALS SUPPOSED TOO! THIS SENSELESS ACT OF VIOLENCE WAS STUPID AND VERY UNCALLED FOR. ITS NOT GANSTA TO TAKE AN INNOCENT MANS LIFE. NOR IS IT RIGHT TO ATTEMPT TO TAKE SOMEONES LIFE THAT NEVER TOOK A LIFE FROM YOU! ONE PERSON IN CUSTODY THUS FAR BUT THERE ARE TWO MORE SUSPECTS THAT MUST BE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE FOR THEIR PART IN THIS TRAGEDY.... TO THOSE WHO SECRETLY (yes we know!) HAD A HAND IN THIS HORRIBLE, STUPID, NOW U KNOCKED FOR LIFE SITUATION, MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOUL!

BLACK SENATE WOULD LIKE TO EXPRESS OUR LOVE AND HEARTS TO THE FALLEN/FALLING SOLDIERS 29-E AND PRESWELL JACKSON......OUR PRAYERS ARE HEAVY FOR THIER SOULS....................LETS MAKE MUSIC NOT WAR

STOP THE FAKE GANSTA SHIT!!!!!!!! THROW YA HANDS UP IF YOU A MAN!!! YOU GET MORE STREET CREDIBILITY FROM LAYING HANDS ON SOMEONE THAN JUST SHOOTING UP A CLUB! THATS JUST DUMB!

this suntzu now... i was wondering how they "defended themselve's like generals supposed 2 do" did i miss somethin or was there a fite after a mad gunman let off & fled the scene? im not tryin 2 clown but im gettin the sence that cats is a lil juiced up on they self's... i also seen this on sohh.com

By TRAMA730 on January 5, 2009 5:10 AM
THIS IS YA BOY TRAMA!!!!! YO KILLA STOP WIT ALL THAT INTERNET THUG SHIT SON IF YOU KNEW WHAT REALLY POPPED OFF IN WHATS CRACKING RIGHT NOW YOU WOULD RESPECT A NIGGA GANSTA................RIP TA 29-E IN PREZ GET WELL SOON SON HOLLA AT ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By Killa & Trama on January 5, 2009 5:41 AM
Hey Trama, You just had a mother fucker run in on a music set, try to fucking kill you. You are fucking up the scene for all us other Mc's who have our shit wound up on the business tip. People dont try to off me at my shows. You're just a weak nigga who can't control his business. looks like someone talk to much. fake ass pussy nigga. now you gonna fight back? Retaliate? Quit comin all hard and shit saying you beat death nigga, YOU KILLED 29-E FAGGOT. Prez and 29 ain't have nothing to do with your DRAMA, HE TOOK YOUR BULLET. now sleep tonight knowin Seattle homies died for you. Put your fucking attitude in your pocket. You can't even rap.


THIS SUNTZU LIKE I SAID IM NOT TRYIN 2 BE DISRESPECTFUL BUT I FEEL LIKE THIS DUDE ALREADY ON SOME 50 CENT SHIT I GOT SHOT IM STIL BREATHIN NIGGAS TRIED 2 MURDER ME ALL THAT stuff when A REAL NIGGA WOULDNT HAVE LET OFF IN A CROWD HE WOULDA WALKED UP AND SHOT U IN YOUR FACE (LIKE THE SHOOTING ON 23RD & CHERRY OUTSIDE THE GARF. COMM CENTER & AT VITOS) I FEEL 4 U TRAMA U GOT SHOT AT OR WHATEVER AND ALL THE VICTIMS THATS BEEN HURT BUT PLZ DONT GLAMOROUS THIS SITUATION ESPECIALLY SEEIN AS YA MANS IS SHOT THE FUCK UP RITE NOW HOW WOULD HE FEEL HEARIN ALL THIS SHIT?


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Posted by We believe you dumbass hiphop thugs]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:28:22 -0800 The Stranger
Too bad many in the hip hop community probably didn't comprehend half the meaning or context of what you were saying.

MSea, BigKountry, Billy the Kid, Logics, Katelyn, Kitty Wu, all of you over at 206Proof need to read, read again, and re-read that post.

Until you own up honestly to what the real issues are, nothing will change.

Maybe it is time to say enough with the Hip Hop scene in Seattle.

I haven't seen anyone from the Proof step up and admit there is a deeper problem brought to light by this shooting.

My condolensces to 29-E's family. Hopefully your son's death will bring about real substantive change. Hopefully he didn't die in vain.

We shall see.
Posted by Will Hip Hop start owning up to their culture?]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:12:09 -0800 The Stranger Posted by cappuccinoothello]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:42:37 -0800 The Stranger Posted by hiphopfan]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:40:48 -0800 The Stranger Posted by daws]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:35:59 -0800 The Stranger
Wasn't there also a shooting of a young black man outside of another club at the beginning of the year. Hmm...Black music, large black crowd. And The War Room on some evenings is a fucking war zone.

It's funny, why don't Africans act this way? I've been to a couple of African music evenings at Waids and it was a lovely, upbeat, welcoming crowd. It seems to be the young African Americans who just don't have a fucking clue.

If Capitol Hill wants to have some rich black experiences, let's bring in some good blues and jazz artists and experience the youth to that. No one ever got shot over that great music. Enough of this gangsta bullshit on Capitol Hill.


Posted by muther-fucka!]]> Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:24:43 -0800 The Stranger