Comments On: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist! by Dan Savage

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

hds — Sat, 13 Dec 2008 04:25:22 -0800

@42 THANK YOU!, but he won't get it.
Posted by hds

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

trey — Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:29:04 -0800

I honestly don't know where you are coming from, Dan. I was disappointed in your November 5th post, but your appearances on Colbert, Larry King, Anderson Cooper, etc seemed to make up for knee-jerk reaction.

It's unfortunate that I had to read this post. I've read what Ms. Mitchell had to say on the subject of black voters, and her column does not serve as an example of race-baiting. She never resorts to perpetuating the myth of "huge numbers: of african-american homophobes:

"Proposition 8 asked voters to affirm that marriage is solely between a man and a woman. It passed with 52 percent of the vote. African Americans are now being cast as bigots."

"But I'm not certain that most blacks care one way or the other."

"After all, black people are the least likely of all the racial groups to get married. On Sunday morning, only a couple of the dozens of people who called "Chicago Speaks," a radio talk show I co-host on WVAZ-FM (102.7), said they were adamantly opposed to gays and lesbians getting married."

"Most callers said they could relate to the plight of gays being banned from marrying. After all, it wasn't that long ago that interracial marriages were illegal in some states."

Dan, why would you choose to take her comments out of context? How does what she said above compare to what you posted?

"I do know this, though: I�m done pretending that the handful of racist gay white men out there�and they�re out there, and I think they�re scum�are a bigger problem for African Americans, gay and straight, than the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans are for gay Americans, whatever their color.

This will get my name scratched of the invite list of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, which is famous for its anti-racist-training seminars, but whatever.

Finally, I�m searching for some exit poll data from California. I�ll eat my shorts if gay and lesbian voters went for McCain at anything approaching the rate that black voters went for Prop 8."

Please explain how you two are making the same point?

Posted by trey

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Stephanie — Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:12:46 -0800

OTOH, this is Dan's blog. If I were the blog author, I would moderate the comment section, either by pre-approving all comments, deleting extremely offensive ones, or commenting on them -- either generally in my post or in a comment following theirs. I understand that Dan has more going on in his life as the editor of the paper and a nationally syndicated columnist than I would if I were blogging, though, and I am not prepared to say where his responsibility to the community starts and ends. Also, for all I know, the Stranger has an explicit "anything goes" policy.
Posted by Stephanie

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Stephanie — Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:08:42 -0800

Jenny, I don't know what you think it says about me that I abide by the general bbs/netiquette rule "Don't feed the trolls." If that post were written in a way that engaged with the substance of the thread -- that is, it seemed to be a part of the conversation -- or had the legitimacy conferred by a real name or something, I obviously would respond. But I think it's better not to give people who spout hatred the attention they seek, especially here where their message isn't taking hold.

I similarly did not respond to the David Duke fan in comment 83, you'll notice. What does that say about me? Or what does it say about you that you were looking for hate speech and glossed over that one?
Posted by Stephanie

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

jenny — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 23:33:25 -0800

Nothing speaks clearer of the bigotry of Stephanie and JLS that they obsess over comments made by Jade and Kelly yet they have not a word of criticism for @70. It speaks volumes to their bigotry of what they get pissed off about, and what they are willing to overlook. Very telling.
Posted by jenny

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Jaimie Lynn Spears — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:04:58 -0800

Oh honey,

You tried so hard, I feel compelled to let you believe that you made a coherent argument. I'll leave you, before I start to feel guilty for being well... a "meanie".

The Dan-Savage-is-a-racist meme is quite widespread. So it looks like you've got your work cut out for you.

Goodluck sweetie.

"LEAVE BRI...ugh..uh..DAN ALONE!"
Posted by Jaimie Lynn Spears

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

kelly — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:11:18 -0800

@82
I apologize, if I don't find it necessary to stray off-topic and go into some unbridled, disconnected monologue, about "angry" black civil rights leaders

My list wasn't of "angry" black civil rights leaders, but of blacks who do everything and then more of what you accuse Dan of, but get a free pass. Apparently you consider their behavior to be angry. When white people talk about blacks this way it is called "racism". Funny how you refer to some of the most abhorent race baiters and racists in this contry as "angry" as though, like usual, the black man, when angry, can't be judged.

If I had stated in my very first post under this topic, that Jesse Jackson sucks, and Al Sharpton is meanie, would that had been more to your liking?

"Sucks" and "meanie" are funny words to use to describe these two. Sharpton helped bring about the Crown Heights lynching and the racially motivated hate crime at Freddy's Fashion Mart which killed 7. Wow, a black man helps bring about 8 racist murders and has partipated in the two biggest rape hoaxs of this century (Duke Lacrosse scandal and Tawanna Brawley) and for all this the worst you call him is a "meanie"???
Jackson on the other hand, has gotten 3 white people fired this year alone for talking about black people the same way he does. He called Obama a n----.
You say that sucks? I bet if Dan Savage went on tv and said that Obama was a n---- and he wanted to cut off all his balls you would be using a bit more harsh language.

Leave Dan alone, like I said earlier, he is not your house negro, he is not here to serve you. And your constant crying wolf about racism makes people less likely to listen when there actually is some truth to it. Which in this case there isn't. Get a life already.

Posted by kelly

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

kelly — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:08:07 -0800

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Facts about Reality — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 14:04:49 -0800

In 2005, black men raped at least 37,460 white women. The same year, white men raped less than ten black women. Blacks are at least seven times more likely to violently attack whites than whites are likely to attack blacks. All stats from the US Department of Justice. Who are the real racists these days?
Posted by Facts about Reality

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Stephanie — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:33:24 -0800

>>>>>Off-topic<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I am extremely sorry about my repeated posts up there. I kept getting an error message and therefore tried to re-post, but I guess my message actually went through each time. Mea culpa!
Posted by Stephanie

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Jaimie Lynn Spears — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:27:07 -0800

My goodness Kelly,

First of all, you don't know me from a can of paint. You don't know who or what I've discussed on various other blogs or in various other arenas.

Why is Dan Savage pertinent to the conversation? Well for one, this is his blog. 2) He has been at the center of this race-baiting controversy since Nov. 5th. 3) He keeps bringing it up.

I apologize, if I don't find it necessary to stray off-topic and go into some unbridled, disconnected monologue, about "angry" black civil rights leaders in a topic that has nothing at all to with the matter.

If I had stated in my very first post under this topic, that Jesse Jackson sucks, and Al Sharpton is meanie, would that had been more to your liking?

Do try to stay on topic my dear, it helps the conversation flow a bit better.

Darn, just when I was beginning to enjoy the direction the conversation seemed to be headed. People who actually felt that the discussion should be about healing the wounds within our community. Shame.

Yes! Yes! Dan has stood his ground! Too bad he's too busy trying to explain it away, I guess it isn't much of ground, now is it?

If this is what a possibly enlightening conversation has now become, well.... good day to you my dear.

Posted by Jaimie Lynn Spears

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Stephanie — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:13:32 -0800

kelly, I'm commenting on Dan's blog, not Trick Trick's. That's why you see my criticism of Dan, not Trick Trick, here.

As for the rest, I don't see how it pertains to my post. I probably know a lot more about homophobia in black communities from my personal experience and from my work than you ever will. I am not at all opposed to having a thoroughgoing and constructive conversation about it. But the first time Dan ever showed concern about it was when it affected him and his friends. And he didn't attempt to be constructive, but rather used it as cause to minimize the significance of racism in gay communities.

Frankly, when you make lazy assumptions based on one small exit poll; compare voting for Obama to voting against Prop 8 as if there were some kind of race-sexuality quid pro quo involved; let lie vicious racist comments in the comment threads while responding to the ones that criticize you with snark; create straw men of those who have asked you questions by claiming that they describe you as a "card-carrying member of the KKK"; post repeatedly about your own hurt feelings without reflecting on the damage that your sarcasm might do to the energy of a burgeoning movement; seek cover from other voices, particularly black ones, as if others' failings mean you're off the hook; post the lyrics of a marginal Detroit rapper as evidence of the hopelessness of outreach in California black communities when the only common thread between them is their race --- when you do all of these things, it doesn't make me think you are prepared for a serious and self-reflective conversation.

By the way, the point where I "perceive[d] a racist intent" in your comment wasn't at the end, but at the beginning, where you said that Dan wasn't my "house negro." ;)
Posted by Stephanie

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Stephanie — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:10:38 -0800

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Stephanie — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:08:09 -0800

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Stephanie — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:06:22 -0800

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

kelly — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:01:45 -0800

"Neither Dan nor any of his supporters has been able to explain away his post about the rapper Trick Trick"

Neither Stephanie, nor Jaime Lynn Spears, nor DLS, nor any of their supporters have been able to explain away why they don't harp on black civil and religious leaders homophobic, myogyny, antisemitism, and anti-asian racism hate speech the same way they obsess and fume over a gay white male writer quoting from a lyric from a black rapper Trick Trick.
Yes, VERY telling indeed!!
Apparently Dan is held to much higher standards then Jesse Jackson, Al Shaprton, Andrew Young, Jerimiah Wright, Jesse Jackson Jr, Malcolm X, Louis Farrakhan, etc, etc. Gee, I wonder if it's because he's a gay white man and they are hetro black men? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Posted by kelly

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

kelly — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:46:24 -0800

@64 You say" We saw Dan lash out with sarcasm, several times over, because people criticized his message ...... But he's supposed to be a leader, here, no?"

He didn't lash out- HE POINTED OUT THINIGS YOU DIDN"T WANT TO HEAR AND STOOD HIS GROUND. Get over it- he's not your house negro, okay?? As far as being a leader, a leader means having to ruffle some feathers some time. I can't think of any black civil rights leader, except MLK who didn't say things that were far more devisive than Dan. He said something that badly needed to be said and he refuses to cower before those who scream "racism" at the drop of a pin.

"Neither Dan nor any of his supporters has been able to explain away his post about the rapper Trick Trick"

Right, because THERE IS NO NEED TO. Again, what is with your belief that people have to explain things to you that do not need explaining? The reality is this is a power issue. Your attitude is that someone is racist until they sufficiently appease you. You perceive a racist intent behind every statement (including this one no doubt) than demand that people sufficiently "explain" themselves or else you conclude they are racist.
This is boring and trite and comes from a need to censor and control, not a aversion to racism. If you were against bigotry you would leave Dan alone and go after Jesse Jackson, who <> recently called Obama the N-word.

Posted by kelly

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Stephanie — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:11:40 -0800

FWIW, I agree with you that That Annoying Interest Troll has been great. I agree with every one of his posts that I've read, and I don't think anything I've written contradicts him.
Posted by Stephanie

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Stephanie — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:06:39 -0800

Jade, you described yourself as watching Dan "tirelessly address in such a positive way the aftermath of this election, and all the while get shit on by people because he didn't sugar coat his words."

That's simply not what I saw. I saw Dan lash out with sarcasm, several times over, because people criticized his message -- not the lack of sugar coating, but the message itself. Of his dozen or so posts on the topic, at least three have been dedicated to the kind of tone deaf sarcasm as in this one. How is this positive? What is it doing to heal the racial divisions in our communities? How is it helping us win next time? His feelings are hurt. I get it. But he's supposed to be a leader, here, no?

Neither Dan nor any of his supporters has been able to explain away his post about the rapper Trick Trick (and his comment in that thread). That's when I stopped thinking Dan had any intention of grappling with the serious issues that you and Jaimie and I seem interested in engaging. And yes, maybe I have read his further posts on this subject with that in mind. Nonetheless, I remain unconvinced -- and probably will continue to be unless and until he does better.

Posted by Stephanie

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Jaimie Lynn Spears — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:14:24 -0800

Somehow this part was left out, not that it's significant, it's just my OCD :)

Also when you consider the fact presidential candidates on either side of the isle cannot openly affirm gay marriage without the fear of losing, again tells you that homophobia isn't solely a black problem, or Mormon problem for that matter.
Posted by Jaimie Lynn Spears

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Jaimie Lynn Spears — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:52:12 -0800

Jade,

I'm glad we can both agree that racism and homophobia are both issues that need to be addressed simultaneously before any healing can take place. Neither is any less hurtful than the other. Not only do we need to address both issues, we need to actively work against them.

We need to understand how these beliefs form in order to combat them. Oppression is oppression, discrimination is discrimination, it shouldn't only become your cause when it affects you personally or people like you. Most importantly, we need to examine our own prejudices. I believe the blame-the-blacks meme is wrongheaded, not only due to the fact that I and many others feel that the exit poll data is faulty, but it's also racially tinged. Another thing it does, is prevent us from addressing homophobia on a broader scale by pretending that only black people are homophobic.

If the exit poll is to be believed, then half the white population, slightly more than half of the latino population and half the asian population in "liberal" California of all places(and remember the majority of No on 8 votes came from younger voters in each category, yes including AA's) does not believe that gays should marry, that's pretty significant.

And when we consider that the US is a majority white country in which gay marriage is valid in only a few states, says that homophobia is not isolated to the AA population. If we keep framing it as if it is, we will continue to lose. If we keep framing this as which race hates us the most, we are fighting a losing battle. Let's remember that a majority black country like South Africa is one of the few countries that recognizes gay marriage, so homophobia is not a product of black skin.

As far as Dan Savage. Yes I believe what he said was racially insensitive. And yes I do believe that someone engrossed in such controversy is not the right person to take the reigns as spokesman for the gay movement. That's my opinion and the opinion of many others. That isn't going to change because he says it wasn't a racially insensitive comment, all it does is tell me, that he's completely oblivious to his own prejudice.

Tyreek= is an obvious troll, I wonder if some of these people are right wingers.
Posted by Jaimie Lynn Spears

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

jade — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:16:40 -0800

Jamie, firstly: your "we are the world" comment is funny. Good one. :-)

Secondly: I'm so sorry what happened to your friends, and anyone who's been verbally, racially assaulted by angry gays and lesbians since the election. I really am.

I grew up in the south, in a city that was majority African American. I can assure you that I'm under no delusions of "unity" between the races, gay or straight.

I don't think we should bury our heads in the sand about any racism in any community. I have not "dismissed" what black people are saying about this. Not at all. In fact, quite the opposite. It's practically all I have been thinking about since the election. I consider this is the most important human rights issue in this country at the moment, and this national conversation we're having--even though it's hard and hurtful--is of enormous value, including what you and I and Stephanie have said to each other in the last few days.

One of the most valuable voices about this on SLOG, in my opinion, has been someone called "annoying interest troll." I hope you've been reading him. I've learned a great deal from him.

At the same time, I've seen many people accuse Dan Savage of saying things he didn't say, believing things he doesn't believe, and trying to stir shit, when all he's done is shine a light on an obvious problem. I've read Dan's writings since the 90s; I will never understand the accusations of sexism, transphobia, and racism against him. It's just not true, and watching him tirelessly address in such a positive way the aftermath of this election, and all the while get shit on by people because he didn't sugar coat his words is enormously frustrating.

What happened to your friends at the protest is not his fault. Coming here and yelling about "Whites Only" signs was--in my opinion--out of line. But I do appreciate your last post and I thank you for this conversation. Believe it or not, I do want solutions and conversations. But--just as much--I want these accusations of racism against Dan (and myself) to stop.
Posted by jade

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

tyreek — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 03:30:00 -0800

fuck yall faggots. im sick of yall trying to compare yourself to the struggles we faced, u can just stop bein gay we can't stop being black! the election was our day and now yall little girls trying to steal it from us. the arther of this article is obviously rasist against niggaz.
Posted by tyreek

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

Jaimie Lynn Spears — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:29:30 -0800

Jade,

I'm happy you had the opportunity to have such an experience, truly inspiring. However, I've heard several accounts by AA gays, including 3 of my AA lesbian friends who weren't so lucky. There was plenty of "Epithet-spewing" right there at the protest, directed toward these invdividuals for no other reason than the fact that they have black skin. My 3 friends were spat at, called the N-word ofcourse, and physically threatened to the point that they had no other choice but to leave. Too bad they missed out on their "we are the world" experience. If we continue to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that racism doesn't exist within the gay community,and continue to ignore black gays who address it, well...we're going to continue to lose time and time again.

The "black gay blogs" that I referred to, have no "Epithet Spewing" as you suggest(very interesting). Instead, you'll find people who feel igorned, shunned and dismissed by the larger gay movement BECAUSE race IS such an issue. You ever stop to think that the reason you may not view what Dan Savage said as racist is because you aren't black? So why dismiss the charge, instead of trying to understand why someone may feel that way? Black gays have been dismissed for so long and you all continue to do so, while pretending that "we're all united." Continue that habit, see how far it gets you.
Posted by Jaimie Lynn Spears

Re: Racist Columnist! Racist Columnist!

jade — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:34:38 -0800

No need to, Spears. I heard what Marc Loveless had to say about black and Latino gay rights at last Saturday's protest.

And as I was spontaneously hugging and kissing a lovely African American lesbian while all around me people were chanting, "black/white, gay/straight, we will not give in to hate," I kind of got an idea what ethnic sexual minorities feel toward white sexual minorities. And vice-versa.

Epithet-spewing Blog posts--including yours--don't mean much after what I witnessed firsthand.
Posted by jade