Comments On: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag by Dan Savage

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

a.james — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:31:04 -0800

On the shirt: Having spent my "youth" [10-14] more or less as an anarcho-totin' crustie, and currently spending my late youth as a detergent-questioning "rivetpunk" [for lack of a better term], I'll assure everyone that faggotry does not cease once the silk neckerchiefs are replaced by spikey dog collars--but that's probably obvious.

Simply put: if "Anyone" asks, you have /identical shirts/. Unless non-washing is so post-post-post modern for them.

jordan: TV debates are not structured to be "dignified". It's all jerry-jerry-jerry from the get-go, the best you can hope for is the host is willing to STFU and be a neutral party. More importantly: Perkins reps for the status quo, we KNOW his line, we live 24/7/365.25 in a world that is reflective of his norms, mores, folkways, etc, that build the law in the same image. If he is the "majority", then he supposedly represents that 51+% and the overall % of viewership for any newsnetwork. Using his filibustering tactics Perkins does not ALLOW the majority to hear, understand, or relate to the minority. There are times when you sit quietly with your hands folded to show you're not a threat, and there are times when you stand up and speak forcefully so that you are recognized and your point is heard. The latter times are often not -given- to you.
Furthermore, you [and j, if they are a seperate entity], are pulling things from your ass: you like to throw around words like "racist" and "fascist" when something goes wrong, don't you? Because that seems to be your tactic here. Dan has said nothing that indicates fascism, and your cry of "racist" seems to only be justified in that he was disappointed with a majority of polled black and latino voters; and because his anger was at them, and they were people of colour, it makes the view racist. That is incredibly shallow justification, especially if I was to thrush out some statistics showing that the demographics we're speaking of are largely more "traditionalist". I am very disappointed in any protesters whom yelled, harassed, or offended black or latino passer-by or attendees of the protests; yes, there IS a problem that as the gay movement mainstream-ized, it also put on a very very white public face. But couldn't one also argue that many queers of colour faced opposition from within the community of their race or ethnicity, due to the higher value placed on traditional morality within said communities?
This is a multi-tiered issue with various levels; it's not as simple as black/white. It's not as simple as evil racist fascists against the wonderful rainbow-spitting majority of minority groups. We're fractured and have different goals, it's the strength and weakness of having a minority base, because the less powerful groups in society are all less powerful in different ways. The dominate groups of society will use this against us, and sow the seeds of distrust within our coalition. You have every right to stand up against racist fascist faggots, but when you have to /create/ their existence, it weakens any chance that we, as minority groups, can present a united front against the majority.
Posted by a.james

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

happyhedonist — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 19:39:15 -0800

crosstalk is always irritating, but it can't possibly be as irritating as tony fucking perkins.

i think you did just as well as possible given what you had to work with, and EXCELLENT parting shots, yo.
Posted by happyhedonist

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

DJDeeJay — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:10:37 -0800

109, I'm not sure where you got Dan was being "hysterical" on AC360. He never raised his voice, he physically never even flinched, and although he was clearly (and reasonably) angry he remained composed. Yes, he was forceful and did interrupt Perkin, but that's hardly "hysterical."

And for someone who doesn't want to blame others and wants "constructive" solutions, I'm pretty sure randomly (and hilariously) assuming Dan secretly votes for right-wing politicians, saying he's "hysterical" and other attacks amount to blaming others and not being constructive.

Dan, although I find certain comments of yours inappropriate here and there, I thought you were great on Colbert and AC360.
Posted by DJDeeJay

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

Kristine — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:20:00 -0800

You were amazing...My fave moment was: You take away my rights; I interrupt you...What a dickhead he is...I forgive the repeat shirt wearing.

Also...Fantastic on Colbert!
Posted by Kristine

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

jade — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:05:00 -0800

Then count me in as a loser who reads Slog. I'm cool with that.

Fantastic job, as usual, Dan. I had no problem with you interrupting him. This wasn't polite conversation over tea, after all. You didn't shout him down; you didn't curse at him; you stayed your dignified self the entire debate.

He seemed genuinely shocked that you didn't pay him the "deference" he clearly felt entitled to. I think it's because he thought you'd be suffering from the self-hate he so obviously is.

Very quickly, these crazy, crazy people are realizing Bush Adm. has lost its power. They always look so aghast.
Posted by jade

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

Homer — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:07:14 -0800

I love the subways in NYC too, I am always thrilled to see rats crawling around because we don't have subways or rats in Tucson.
Posted by Homer

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

inkweary — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:07:43 -0800

Hey Dan, great work!

But about the shirts: Forget them, get a good-quality tweed jacket that will look great with your T's and jeans. A vintage one will not cost much and will not wrinkle in your bag and also make a great blanket or pillow for the plane. It also won't matter how many times you wear it if you change up your T.
Posted by inkweary

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

Will in Seattle — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:01:45 -0800

I thought the shirt looked similar.

But a good job both nights.
Posted by Will in Seattle

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

roland303 — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:40:13 -0800

Hey jordan, why don't you anoint yourself spokesgay to combat Dan's virulent attacks? He's just one person and you have every right to disagree but... put yourself out in the limelight for a while and be the steady keel that you so want Dan to be.
Posted by roland303

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

jordan — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 11:00:24 -0800

106, if Prop 8 had been defeated, would it therefore have been okay for its proponents to march in front of Apple, Google, Brad Pitt's house, and anyone else who donated time and money to the No campaign?

As for your claim that what's being targeted is the institution, not the religious group, I feel like that's very thin ice for someone also claiming that voting against gay marriage (while keeping civil unions and broad gay rights intact) is being anti-gay.

Finally, I don't see how having an uninformed (or even deceptive) opponent prevented Dan from being a little more dignified in his approach.

But hey - if people think this is the right approach, that this is the best path to gay marriage, great. I don't take it personally that you disagree with me. I do feel like I need to voice my opinion - that we're veering into the worst excesses of mob mentality (blacklisting even!), and that the most prominent gay public figures are fanning the flames instead of trying to solve the problem.

Posted by jordan

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

jordan — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:27:55 -0800

102, I appreciate your ability to lay out your position for me so cogently and patiently.

I still disagree. I especially disagree that the type of protests we've seen will bring about any kind of positive change in the LDS church. If anything, they are likely to provoke further alienation between the gay and Mormon communities. Marching and chanting no doubt make the protesters feel better about themselves - but I have to question whether the goal is for gay people to feel good about themselves, or to create a broad-based consensus in society in favour of gay marriage.

The best thing I saw, in relation to this, came from Equality Utah. Because the LDS church kept saying they aren't anti-gay, they don't object to civil unions and gay rights, etc, only to marriage, Equality Utah took them at their word, and is preparing draft civil union legislation for the next session of the state assembly. *That* is the kind of constructive approach I am 100% behind.
Posted by jordan

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

Lavode — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:03:56 -0800

Way to go, Dan. Sometimes you have to play the game on their terms, and civil and dispassionate discourse is for fools.
Posted by Lavode

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

lymerae — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:02:06 -0800

@96: The reason for protesting the Mormon church, rather than the other organizations you mentioned, is because the Mormon church was instrumental in getting Prop 8 passed. 4 out of every 5 dollars pumped into the "Yes On 8" campaign came from the Mormon infrastructure. That's not a generalized demographic bias (as protesting blacks or the elderly would be), that's targeting an institution for its documented political involvement.

As for Dan's performance--it's pretty hard to engage in "constructive dialogue" when your opponent trots out tired lines like "kids need a mom and a dad," using cooked studies as proof.
Posted by lymerae

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

butterw — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:01:11 -0800

Bravo Dan
Posted by butterw

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

Sir Vic — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:53:49 -0800

Dan's Shirt:

So you were in a protest with thousands of gay men (among others), and not one of them could help you out with your "wardrobe dysfunction"? I understand that there were more pressing issues, but please don't destroy my old-school ideas of gay men and tell me there was no fashion on display. None of them would give you a stylin' shirt to go on TV with AC? Not buying it.

And screw the Mormons. They went after this fight full throttle. They should expect to take some heat. Hell, they love the persecution complex stuff.
Posted by Sir Vic

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

Your Name Here — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:41:53 -0800

Dear Mr. Savage:

It has been brought to our attention that on Wednesday, November 12, 2008, you made a public appearance on the television program "Anderson Cooper 360", and that said appearance was conducted in the same shirt you had worn the previous day on the Colbert Report.

Pursuant to the United States Code on Homosexuality, Title 18, Section 3205, paragraph (c)(2)(ii) "Dress Code Regulations", your membership and all privileges are hereby revoked.

Automated quarterly billing of your membership dues is hereby suspended, less a pro-rated charge for 12 days of membership used and a cancellation service fee.

You are required to surrender your membership card and any equipment in your possession to our office with in five (5) business days. Failure to do so may result in legal action.

Thank you for your past membership, and we wish you the best in the future.

Sincerely,
The Gays
Posted by Your Name Here

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

piminnowcheez — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:38:12 -0800

why not also protest old folks' homes, Catholic Churches, and the hangouts of any other readily identifiable group that voted for Prop 8.

Ah. I think I see the problem here. The point is not to protest groups or kinds of people who tended to vote for Prop 8. The point is to protest institutional powers that were important to passing the propostion. The protests are not aimed at Mormon people over how they voted, they're aimed at the leaders of the LDS Church as a way to persuade them that putting their money and organizational power behind this issue comes at a cost. The Mormon church made it a specific policy to pursue this politically, and used the structure of the church organization as a tool for political organizing and fundraising. *That's* what the anger over the LDS's role is about. And you're right, the Catholic Church deserves ire too, but the LDS happened to direct a notable degree of resources and focus to this, so they're getting a lot of attention. Oh, well.

To protest black people because a majority voted for Prop 8 would of course be racist, by definition a prejudicial generalization, because of course 30% of black Californian voters voted against it. Even black churches don't act with anywhere near the coordination that the LDS do.

I don't know what kind of racist talk you heard that so offended you, but most of what I heard wasn't hating on black people so much as appreciating the bitter irony of of Obama winning and gays losing on the same day.
Posted by piminnowcheez

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

kate — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:37:57 -0800

Dan, caught you on AC360 last night. My husband and I cheered you on--glad to see someone calling these bigots out on their stuff. Thanks for your work.

--Kate
Posted by kate

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

gentry — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:30:49 -0800

Why should the moderator delete Dan's address? Isn't this exactly what Dan is doing to others? Threatening them for participating in the political process? Was it not Dan who, ON THIS VERY BLOG, posted names and addresses and occupations of the biggest Washington donors to Yes on 8?

Dan's message to Mormons was "you can't hit and not expect to be hit back". That works both ways, douchebag.
Posted by gentry

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

Non — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:15:40 -0800

Can a moderator please delete Dan's address? It's threatening.
Posted by Non

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

Matt — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:10:38 -0800

Dan ... just watched you & Perkins on YouTube. THANK YOU. I can't imagine anyone else representing me as a gay person better than you. THANK YOU DAN.
Posted by Matt

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

Craig — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:03:51 -0800

Thank you Dan for fighting the hard fight. I'll join you this Saturday in Volunteer Park.
Posted by Craig

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

jordan — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:02:44 -0800

94, did I listen to Dan last night? I confess that it was a little difficult to listen to him. When he wasn't interrupting, he had two modes: indignation and hysterics. Something he didn't try: constructive engagement and dialogue. He didn't say one worthwhile thing.

I would have liked Dan to go out there and say, hey, you know what - as a gay community, we didn't make our case to the people of California. We didn't have outreach to the African American and Latino communities. We were too content preaching to the choir.

I'd respect Dan if he were a little more consistent - why not also protest old folks' homes, Catholic Churches, and the hangouts of any other readily identifiable group that voted for Prop 8.

As a solutions-oriented person, I can't help but view the outbursts of bigotry and intolerance coming from our community as being very damaging for the long-term prospects of same-sex marriage. I can't imagine anyone who voted for Prop 8 reconsidering their vote in light of what's happened in the past week.
Posted by jordan

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

spondee — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:01:55 -0800

At first glance, "Yes, I just went on Anderson Cooper..." looked to me like, "Yes, I just went down on Anderson Cooper..."

And I was really impressed for about 5 seconds.
Posted by spondee

Re: I Am a Bad, Bad Fag

Balt-O-Matt — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:34:36 -0800

@92. It's okay to disagree with Dan's first reaction to focus on the exit polls from CA. That's cool. But to then jump the shark and start these personal attacks is just not useful. Did you even listen to Dan last night?

Recriminations ARE useful. Sorry. The Mormons funded this; the Mormons are fair game. Protesting in front of their churches isn't that big of a deal. They'll get used to it. Actions have consequences. We shouldn't have to play nice with people who spread lies and fear about us in order to take away our rights. Fuck that. Fuck. That.

Blessings.
Posted by Balt-O-Matt