http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/08/26/im-sorry-but Comments On: I'm Sorry, But... by Dan Savage en-us Copyright 2013 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:00:01 -0700 Wed, 19 Jun 2013 12:45:00 -0700 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Posted by cgd]]> Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:00:46 -0700 The Stranger
Uh, isn't PROGRESS what this WHOLE FUCKING THING IS ABOUT, YOU NITWIT??? Evangelical Christian clergymen saying they think there should be marriage equality IS progress, however inadequate it might seem to your poor little oppressed self.

Oh, that's right, you want apologies. Lots of 'em. Written out in longhand, and notarized, no doubt.
Posted by Chris in Vancouver WA]]> Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:07:24 -0700 The Stranger
Hate for hate. How nice. Didn't someone once say something about turning the other cheek?

Of course, if you want a more modern, hipper, more "progressive" voice, look to Ghandi: "An eye for an eye makes everyone blind."
Posted by Chris in Vancouver WA]]> Sun, 29 Aug 2010 19:54:11 -0700 The Stranger
"I'm sorry you are feeling all trodden upon by all these militant UNFEELING gays..."

Hmmm, gay SLOG commenters are "unfeeling" (as @ 42 admits), but the pastor seems to be a "feeling" person. PASTOR WINS!! It's another instance I've seen lately of one of those ol' "hateful" Christians being the more compassionate person than the atheist/agnostic/secular humanist cruelly berating them and mocking them ("Flying Spaghetti Monster") for their beliefs. WTF, people, I know it's the internet, but show a little decency!!

Pastor, I am a gay man who truly appreciates that you "get" the fundamental, Constitutional difference between belief and how civic life should be conducted in this country. You get an attaboy from me, even if you weren't fishing for one! And I must apologize to you for all of the hate spewed your way here and on Sullivan. And with all of the hurt caused in the world by so many other things that you would consider sinful, I suspect that you, following Christ's example, probably say little to nothing about homosexuality from the pulpit. I also suspect that there are quite a few other Christian clergymen who share your thoughtful stance; I would imagine that someone choosing the clergy as a vocation would have to be a thoughtful person, because being a preacher doesn't pay that great. Plus, you have to put up with whiny babies like this bunch, who can't let go of their pasts and move on.

Peace to you, sir.
Posted by Chris in Vancouver WA]]> Sun, 29 Aug 2010 19:46:08 -0700 The Stranger Posted by kyndra]]> Sat, 28 Aug 2010 22:23:21 -0700 The Stranger Posted by cgd]]> Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:30:44 -0700 The Stranger Posted by no one will believe you if you say you're no longer gay...]]> Sat, 28 Aug 2010 14:49:29 -0700 The Stranger
Other sensitive children were not so lucky. A friend of mine from a different fundementalist sect lost her brother to suicide at sixteen from this kind of preaching. And to add insult to injury, the talk of their congregation was, "well he must've been influenced by satan to do such a thing". I hope you, evangelical preacher, wouldn't hold that same sentiment and I would also hope you would see the church's complicity in the matter, but you are free to believe what you want.

I'm sorry you are feeling all trodden upon by all these militant unfeeling gays, as they express their true frustration against "real" oppression and the "real" effect it's had on their lives and psyches. Please remember, though, that it is based on the presupposition that being gay is inherently 'sinful' that gay marriage is illegal in most places, that gay people are not allowed the protection from discrimination that the religious have been enjoying all along, that in Uganda capital punishment for being gay is being seriously considered for a law, that in Montana there is still a law on the books that makes gay relationships illegal and punishable by jailtime and a fine.

Every time a politician passes a law that makes gays less equal, every time some group of thugs beats a gay to a pulp, or worse, the rationale always harkens back to the message of the church. So go ahead and whine about 'thought police' whenever we point out the harm that that message has brought us, but I would ask you, "what do you really expect us to do? be grateful that y'all even allow us to exist? Buck it up and say, 'thank you sir(s), may I have another'?"
Posted by kyndra]]> Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:37:53 -0700 The Stranger Posted by cgd]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:47:54 -0700 The Stranger Early in June, Michael Allen of Uptown Baptist Church wrote an open letter to area pastors calling on them to respond to the Gay Games. "Our gay and lesbian fellow citizens embody our own most extreme, most impassioned defiance of our Creator," he wrote, "who lovingly designed us in his own image, male and female. Our homosexual friends typify our own stiff-necked, fist-waving, God-cursing, me-loving selves."

This is the problem with evangelicals. For a large percentage of them it is not enough to think homosexuality is a sin, the see it quite literally as a slap in the face to that god of theirs. just leaving us alone is not an option. Many fell the same way about atheist, it is not a private matter to them it is a personal to their best buddy.
Posted by Ogre Magi]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:37:36 -0700 The Stranger
Danny backs off his arrogant oppressive HomoTaliban DEMAND that all Americans' religious beliefs must conform to his.....

damn good thing the troll is around to keep this place straight.....
Posted by sorry seems to be the hardest word]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:41:01 -0700 The Stranger Posted by catsnjags]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:55:17 -0700 The Stranger
Most gays grow up Christian. Through my entire gay childhood, I knew that my Mother believed gays were going to hell. Even though the Church didn't spend lots of time on it, just knowing that in my faith being homosexuality was a sin was enough to make me feel like a damaged piece of shit kid. I worry about gay kids because of my own experience as a Christian. I'm not just assuming what gay kids in Church feel.

I can't not take it personally when people compare my loving 13-year-long relationship with adultery and obesity. Sins are sins because they're harmful actions. That's the accusation...that I'm harming someone or myself. I'm loving someone who loves me. That's not harmful.

That's great that some evangelical Christians can compromise and say gays and lesbians have a right to equality. Yay progress or whatever. But I don't forgive or even like people who think I'm a sinner for being gay. And since there are no thought-police I'm free to think that people who think homosexuality is a sin are sinning for thinking homosexuality is a sin. You get what you give.
Posted by GrrrlRomeo]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:53:14 -0700 The Stranger
It's hate. It's child abouse. It's wrong. ALWAYS. Anyone who puts mythology before the well-being of people in the real world is beneath contempt."

Because you've been in that church to know what is preached, right? I'm sure you've shown up and taken notes to make a case with, right? Or not. Maybe you're every bit as judgmental and close-minded as you claim Christians are? I am that pastor that Dan quoted and I would never tell anyone on this earth that he or she is a worthless, damaged, piece of shit. We are all precious in God's eyes, rather we are trying to follow as best we can or rather we have no interest in following after God.

I do believe that homosexual behavior is sinful, as I wrote. But I also believe that obesity is a sin, that adultery is a sin, that lying and gossip are sins. Does saying that I think something is wrong/sinful automatically translate to me saying that someone who does any of those things are worthless or trash? Of course not, unless you're just very sensitive about anyone saying you're less than perfect.

I'm not called to bring condemnation. I'm called to live the best life I can, and to help lead those who are sharing in the experience as they walk in a similar direction. Having a view of what I believe is the 'way' to get to where we are heading doesn't really make me any different than any other human being who has beliefs.

For those who seem to think that I want a pat on the back for my views, I don't. Rather, I want you to understand that for those of us who stand in front of our congregations and Christian friends and argue on behalf of the gay community's right to enjoy civic equality, it doesn't help when gays, like some commenters on Sullivan's site, insist that they have some kind of thought-police type right to insist on what we can and can't believe.

Thanks to Dan for the response, too. Peace to you.
Posted by thatevangelicalpastor]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:08:20 -0700 The Stranger Posted by I LOVE KIM]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:26:38 -0700 The Stranger
* Well, as much as you can win an argument like this against someone willing to bring up the tired polygamy, incest, and bestiality arguments.
Posted by T]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:46:50 -0700 The Stranger
You're assumption that your's and your pastors take on the the Bible is revealing a lack of education on your part once again. Frankly, you keep embarrassing yourself.

1) Please educate yourself on differences amongst Bibles of different religious traditions within Christianity. Major differences exist between the Bibles of the following: Protestant, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox Christian, Oriental Orthodox Christian. Let us not forget that the Tanak cannot be confused with the Old Testaments of any of the above listed Christian traditions. It wouldn't hurt to remember that other religious groups commonly lumped in under the "Christian" label i.e. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, etc. often have differing opinions

2) I suggest you educate yourself on the "Q". The "Q" predates the gospels and reveals them to have been written as part of a "school of thought" with the primary purpose of the its "members" agenda; to reaffirm the group's own perspective, and to rationalize reasons for their marginality. The premium reason for the gospels was the group's own existence.

3) Educate yourself on the evidence of interpolations in the the letters of Paul. Understand the letters of Paul are all copies, no originals, and none of them date earlier than 200 CE, nearly a century and a half after Paul's actual lived to write them. Become aware of the period of intense controversy within the church in which the Bible was canonized and that NUMEROUS variations exist among the surviving manuscripts: NO TWO of them read exactly the same. Educate yourself that evidence shows that: Hebrews, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus were NOT written by Paul and that it is very likely that Ephesians, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians were not authored by Paul.

4) Educate yourself on church history. Learn that early church fathers, including Augustine, DID NOT teach that Jesus died for your sins and the sins of the world. You can thank Anslem Archbishop of Cantebury for the Theory of Substitution back in 1000s and the protestant reformers during the Reformation (1600s) for the Doctrine of Penal Substitution.

5) Educate yourself on the history of the church in premodern Christianized Europe and the undeniable proof, actual documents, of Catholic and Orthodox liturgies for same-sex unions.

I respectfully suggest that you educate yourself on all of the above, Google will be a life saver, before you start claiming you have the "truth" and proclaiming your tradition and it's interpretations are the "correct" ones. No-one has asked for you to evangelize them. In short, don't be a religious bully.

Sincerely,

kim
Posted by kim in portland]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:11:50 -0700 The Stranger Posted by MLite]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:30:50 -0700 The Stranger Posted by Unregistered User]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:19:41 -0700 The Stranger Posted by cgd]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:15:17 -0700 The Stranger I guess I didn't explain my position clearly enough in regard to my take on Marin's so-called apology. Actually, in my opinion he and other evengelicals are quite entitled maintain their belief that gays are very sinful. They can even believe that we should all stand on our heads and wear pink tu-tus for all I care. I find the free exercise of religion and expression of opinion a truly beautiful thing about America and I would hate to think that anything I believe about this guy's sincerity should have any bearing on what he believes. Where I have a problem is the attempt to draw in the unsuspecting with this kind of obfuscation only to later tell them, "your behavior is still sinful; who you love and how you love is still abhorrent". My point is this, as a gay American, I just really am not not in a hurry to join a group that holds these kinds of opinions about my immutable self. Whether they are keeping it to themselves or shouting on the street corners like the Phelps clan, it just doesn't make me feel truly welcome, that's all. But hey, all you Biblical literalist, conservative, fundementalist, evangelicals out there, please do feel free to believe what you want and worship God in your own way to your hearts content, and I will do the same with a truly affirming church... they are out there.

Posted by kyndra]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:12:27 -0700 The Stranger Yeah, "new-age idelogies" like banning divorce, praying before a carven idol of Jesus and a graven image of Mary, completely disposing of Kashrut, praying in the quotidian tongue rather than Hebrew or Greek or Latin, celebrating the Sabbath on Sunday instead of Caturday, and proselytizing to people of other religions...
You're no biblical purist at all Loveschild. Go rot in a sack.
Posted by venomlash]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:08:22 -0700 The Stranger
It's hate. It's child abouse. It's wrong. ALWAYS. Anyone who puts mythology before the well-being of people in the real world is beneath contempt.
Posted by Nofo]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:04:09 -0700 The Stranger
Civil rights and marriage law are Caesar's laws, not God's laws. Leave them to Caesar.

Posted by Backyard Bombardier]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:22:51 -0700 The Stranger Posted by Reg]]> Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:21:35 -0700 The Stranger