http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/06/24/what-if-i-dont-want-to-be-welcomed-by-the-anglican-church-joel Comments On: What If I Don't Want To Be "Welcomed" By the Anglican Church, Joel? by Dan Savage en-us Copyright 2009 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:00:01 -0800 Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:45:00 -0800 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-new…

Again.
Posted by spencerinblack]]> Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:11:39 -0700 The Stranger http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-new…
3577925-in-these-troubled-
religious-times-anglicans-with-hearts
The URL got cut off when I posted the last comment.
Posted by spencerinblack]]> Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:10:08 -0700 The Stranger You gotta read this. It's long, but it explains important events in simple terms. It's applicable to the non-church goer - as well as - the parishioner. It looks at the issues bedevilling the Anglican Church - that does have an effect on our gay communities. It's from a Canadian perspective and relates to how we are still being treated. First, there's an interview with Elizabeth May (who's Federal leader of the Green Party) which dates back to 2007. She also happens to be studying to be an Anglican Priest, no less! Then; there's a pretty deep analysis which follows the interview outlining the issues which are still outstanding as a result of a cowardly June 2007 Synod meeting of top-brass Anglicans.

Posted by spencerinblack]]> Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:44:56 -0700 The Stranger 18
Dan is one of the bigots.
His religiophobia is as hateful as any gaybasher ever hoped to be.
Posted by Judgmental Asshole, Heal Thyself...]]> Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:01:01 -0700 The Stranger Posted by Violet_DaGrinder]]> Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:42:24 -0700 The Stranger Posted by Jocelyn]]> Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:00:33 -0700 The Stranger
Firstly, I want to make a point about the Bible. Part of the problem is thinking of "the Bible" as one book. It's not - it's a collection of writings written over an incredibly long stretch of history by an enormous spectrum of communities, all with different contexts. I don't believe that it was written by God any more than you do. It was written by men who were trying to express their experience of God. Quite a lot of it is poisonous bile, but not all of it is. Some of it is magnificent, and it speaks to me in a way that a lot of transformational art does. Inspired by God doesn't mean written by God, so I have no problem cherry picking the bits that resonate with me and discarding the rest as the vile nonsense it is.

Secondly, although I call myself "Christian", I only use that word for want of a better description. "Christ" is a religious title - meaning the messiah. I don't talk about "Christ" because I don't buy into hebrew prophesy about a messiah, or Christian elevation of Jesus to divine status. I'm a Christian because I try to be a follower of Jesus - a 1st century Palestinian jew who taught some fairly revolutionary ideas about justice for all. I follow Jesus in a religious context because I believe in God and I believe that Jesus experienced God's presence and understood God's justice, and I draw nourishment from meditating on that experience. So again, I have no trouble drawing what warmth I can from the church and leaving or even opposing the rest. I certainly don't think Jesus was the only such figure. There have been many others through history, many of whom are represented in other faiths, and many through no faith at all. But Jesus is the one that I've grown up with and the one that is more intimate to me.

Finally, although I believe in God as a loving and creative force, I see no evidence of God's intervention in the world in the sense in which many religious people perceive it. Hence I don't believe that God answers prayers, or cares whether I or anybody else believes in him or not. But that's not the point for me. The point is that in meditating on God and God's justice, I draw the inspiration I need in order to try (being the operative word here) to be an actor of good in the world. I find that the church helps me to achieve that focus. But that's my personal experience. I'd never dream of foisting it on anyone else.
Posted by Aussie Steve]]> Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:28:46 -0700 The Stranger
Agreed, we has as much a reason to stand against the right. It would be nice to work together. I'm hoping we will, but I think it will come slowly for some. I think our fellow less religious ideological brethren are going to have to see by our actions, that our intent is clear and that we aren't going to force our beliefs on them.
Posted by kim in portland]]> Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:12:50 -0700 The Stranger
But then there's the fact that while the left will aggressively question what we believe, the right will try to deny us our rights, or even kill us. Look at Dr. Tiller. He was murdered in his church. It made no difference to the man who killed him that he was Christian because, in the murderer's mind, he wasn't really Christian. The secular left might have thought it was weird that he was going to church in the first place, but they likely wouldn't have killed him there (or anywhere).

The point is, we have as much to fight on the right as our less religious ideological brethren, so it'd be nice if they could get over the fact that we believe in God. It's not like we're trying to make them believe in Him too. After all, I agree with Violet: it's all a matter of perception.
Posted by Jocelyn]]> Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:56:44 -0700 The Stranger
I'll try. It's a fair question.

I do believe the Bible. It is God's letter to me/humanity, perhaps love story is a better way of saying it, and I view it as a whole. By that I mean, I read it with an intent to understand it in it's original ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek, within its culture. I accept that there are literary devices, and cultural references that I am not equipped to understand, kinda like the phrase "Out in left field" would be to an individual with no understanding of American culture. In keeping it as a whole, I'm forced to keep it in context, and to view individual scriptures within the main idea, the central purpose/theme of God's love for his creation and his desire for personal relationship with us as individuals. Does a verse, or a passage, have support in other books of the Bible, if it doesn't fit then I'm prone to think it isn't of big importance, and if it contradicts then it's a likely mistranslation? I am unable to rid myself of my ability to question it as it lies upon the page, because as I said above it is translated by humans who are fallible and are biased, but also because it wasn't canonized until the 1500s, and thus a lot of the original intent of an individual scripture could easily be lost, especially as the culture is no longer available to give understanding to the meaning or word choice. Thus, I think there is an excellent chance that some of what is commonly believed by Fundamentalist (who are also often literalists) is misinterpreted. So, I don't find the Bible to be an absurd book, I find comfort and direction in much of it, and I find the words of Christ, the one I seek to be like. I also rely on the Holy Spirit, that is the Spirit of God, that lives within me (as a result of accepting Christ's death on the cross as payment for my individual sins). All that I read, all that I hear from the pulpit, has to match what the Holy Spirit is saying to me, than it isn't to be applied to me personally. (I've never walked away without finding something that is applicable to me.) I also use my own intellect, God gave me the ability to think and the free will to reject him and what is written, and it would be foolish to not apply my mind.

I can't argue that within the catholic (meaning universal) church that you don't find ridiculous crap. Ridiculous crap seems to be a common human affliction, as we are each individuals and are prone to error. Being in a church is about being in a community, a family, and we gather together to worship and work together. Yes, there are groups withing the catholic church which are a source of great shame for me, but there are also groups who are sincerely trying to live out the life of Christ. Working with those who are sincerely trying to care for the poor, even though we are all imperfect, is a joy.

My faith is deeply personal to me. I don't have words to explain it, my heart made the decision and it can't let it go. Christ came to me during the deepest, darkest period of my life. I only "saw" him, when I was ready to "see" him. To "see" him, you have to believe that he exists and that he gives a damn. It's through him, that I could truly forgive, I could truly find peace in what happened to me, and I could allow the pain to become something beautiful that could benefit myself and others. I love my faith for the joy it gives me, the peace it gives me, the comfort it gives me, the guidance it gives me, but I hate that my faith requires me to have courage and believe what I can't tangibly hold or touch. Perhaps, that is why it's called faith?

I hope this helps. I'm not sure I could explain it better, but it is how it works for me. I've never found that it works the same for all of us, RainMan's and Aussie Steve's answers, is evidence of that. There are so many differences between individual denominations, and individual difference by congregations, and then individual interpretation, that getting an answer that is cohesive for all is difficult to find.

Thank you for asking.

I wish you love, joy, peace, and justice.
Posted by kim in portland]]> Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:56:30 -0700 The Stranger
Ok, Kim in Tries-To-Be-Reasonable-Land, maybe you can finally be the Christian who gets this through my thick skull.

So, you perceive that God exists. Fine, I'm not going to argue with your perception (and I hope you can accept that, for all of us who don't perceive any such thing, it's pretty hard to accept the existence of an all-powerful invisible deity that stands before you but not before us). You admire the person that Christ allegedly was. His philosophy resonates with you. Fine, good, I get that. But I think I hear you saying that you don't actually believe that a lot of the bible is true.

Christ's philosophy doesn't strike me as particularly unique. But even if it is. . . I know I have philosophers who speak to me, historical figures I deeply admire, even fictional/mythical characters who inspire me to be a better person. I don't feel the need to take on every one of their beliefs, or align myself with a bunch of things I DON'T actually believe just because fellow admirers of one such figure feel compelled to do so.

I don't get why a rational person would be willing to identify with a religion that is based on a truly absurd book, and accept being grouped with a whole bunch of crazy hateful idiots, because you appreciate this one philosopher. Why not just be a person who believes in a god and admires Christ and the peaceful, loving outlook that he allegedly advocated, without taking on all of the ridiculous crap that comes along with the organized religion?

Help me out here.
Posted by Violet_DaGrinder]]> Thu, 25 Jun 2009 12:41:27 -0700 The Stranger Posted by Greg]]> Thu, 25 Jun 2009 10:25:46 -0700 The Stranger
You make a good point about the secular left and the religious left working together. I think like any other relationship, it will take time to build the trust, to become secure in the intent of each group. It'd be easier if you could discern right from left, if we had some outward and confirmable appearance, but we don't. The left will bear the burden of being linked to the right, and the mountains of pain the right has produced. For many in the secular left, there are real and valid reasons to distrust religious people, and the more the religious left can distance themselves from the right the better, but there are still wounds to be healed. Love and sincerity will take time to cultivate between the two sides. That's my $0.02.
Posted by kim in portland]]> Thu, 25 Jun 2009 10:12:18 -0700 The Stranger Posted by Hernandez]]> Thu, 25 Jun 2009 09:18:52 -0700 The Stranger
*facepalms*

Uh, yeah, that would have been some good context to include in your post, there, Dan. Some of us only come here to read your blog and could give a shit about the rest.
Posted by laurelgardner]]> Thu, 25 Jun 2009 07:07:07 -0700 The Stranger
Don't be a baby. If they're being aggressive, that's one thing, but if they're just putting it out there, they have a right, and plenty of homos will be thrilled to see them. I'm always glad to see it because I'm a musician and it tells me which churches I don't have to refuse to be hired by.
Posted by laurelgardner]]> Thu, 25 Jun 2009 07:03:48 -0700 The Stranger Posted by Rob in Baltimore]]> Thu, 25 Jun 2009 05:57:13 -0700 The Stranger
Just another homophobic religious group.
Posted by Cory]]> Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:12:38 -0700 The Stranger
My own definition of God has evolved over the years and will continue to evolve over my lifetime. I don't see God as an external being off in the clouds but as the inner voice inside all people that helps us to love and do good to others. One certainly doesn't have to be religious to hear and follow that voice and, sadly, many religious people ignore it. I stay in the Christian tradition because I see Jesus of Nazareth as one who heard that voice and understood it. He is no more divine than anyone else, but he's the example, one of many examples like the people Aussie Steve named above, I would like to follow.

Finally, I attend the church I belong to because as a group it stands for the same progressive values I stand for. I have also developed strong friendships with many people there that have gotten me through some difficult times.

I doubt if I would be considered a Christian by some since I have abandoned most traditional theology. That's OK; my own journey is personal and I would never try to force it on anyone else.
Posted by RainMan]]> Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:55:33 -0700 The Stranger Posted by sarahintexas]]> Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:35:52 -0700 The Stranger
Perfect. There's a lot more to the bible and Christianity/religion than fundamentalists would have you believe - both textually and contextually. I wish Dan would admit that that's the case, too, even if he doesn't want to go to church. Kind of like how I recognize that NAMBLA isn't the only gay group out there.
Posted by Yo.]]> Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:30:18 -0700 The Stranger Granting me my equality under the law in NO WAY infringes on your right to live your faith as you see fit. No one is attacking your families. Just because you claim a faith does not allow you to deny me my rights to equal protection. It almost sounds like you want "people of faith" (which is, by the way, totally a matter of choice, unlike my gayness) to be some special protected class. If only "people of faith" left their craziness in their churches, instead of letting it spill out all over the public sidewalk where other people are trying get on with their lives, we'd all be better off.
Posted by jimmy]]> Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:10:39 -0700 The Stranger there is nothing spiritual about it, biology + conditioning = fucked up excuses to damage and ram into peoples minds a feeling of guilt and shame. I'd say it's sad for you to defend it, but you know, you're kinda loopy too.
Posted by pissy mcslogbot]]> Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:25:19 -0700 The Stranger
you should know there are many heterosexual demons out there that are into the bondage thing, and not a few kinky bi spirits as well. it's sort of a mixed bag with demons, seeing as how they are fucking generated by and merely by-products of the human mind.

Posted by pissy mcslogbot]]> Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:17:39 -0700 The Stranger
I have read the Bible, multiple times and co-wrote Bible studies. I lack no confidence in God, and his impact on my life. I do not have the same confidence in fallible humans to translate the scripture accurately or without bias. Nor do I have the same confidence in leaders of the church and their interpretations of the scriptures. I want to be like Christ, gentle, humble, forgiving, compassionate, and just. I believe in God, because my heart decided it, and I lack the proper words to explain why.

I'm going to agree with Aussie Steve, you don't have to be a Christian to focus on the ideals I ascribe to or to do good in this world.

Hope that explains it.
Posted by kim in portland]]> Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:12:30 -0700 The Stranger