http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2013/02/04/the-money-youre-spending-on-college-tuition Comments On: The Money You're Spending On College Tuition? by Dan Savage en-us Copyright 2013 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Sun, 19 May 2013 00:00:01 -0700 Sun, 19 May 2013 00:15:00 -0700 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Payday Loan

Posted by AlexaW]]> Mon, 18 Mar 2013 02:58:58 -0700 The Stranger
If you happen to luck into going to your "dream school", go into infinite debt to study some bullshit you can get a 2 year degree to do, then fuck around for 10 years after school while finding yourself, then yea, you'll grow up to be a whiny little fuck.

Choices, make 'em early
Posted by wilbur@work]]> Thu, 07 Feb 2013 23:11:44 -0800 The Stranger
I think your main complaint lies with the constrained resources of basic education. Testing is a part of that, but only a small part. I passed my "graduation exams" (proficiency tests that must be passed before graduating high school) in *8th* grade. My younger brother, who was never a stellar student until he went to college as an adult (on his own dime), passed them all early in *9th* grade (more than half of them in 8th grade, and the last less than half on his second attempt early in 9th grade). So, clearly, even our not-very-good school district could prepare kids, even unmotivated ones, to pass the basic tests early on. But there was little beyond that. Sure, because I was a motivated student, I learned a fair bit. But I could have just coasted by, learning nothing beyond the basics. Given the right resources, our district could have provided excellent courses that made me think as well as technical training that would have engaged my brother (he got a little through a grant program, and enjoyed and excelled in those few courses, but, now having a degree in engineering, would have really shined if he were challenged in applied courses, and not have had to shell out so much to make up the boring classes he didn't understand the purpose of at 15, 16, and 17).

The study cited is a bit short-sighted, but, if you think about it critically and beyond the authors' conclusions, we could really do some creative things to get people the education that will help them excel at a lower cost than shoving more and more kids into a traditional liberal arts college environment. Not everyone is going to excel in that environment, and we're doing a piss-poor job of preparing most students who need that degree for it. A liberal arts education has a lot of value, but, if we did things right, we could provide a lot of that earlier on and then get people the education and training they need to get a JOB at a lower cost. I LIKE people who can think. I agree that critical thinking is sorely lacking in our educational system. But slighting primary and secondary education and career training in favor of funding post-secondary liberal arts educations for underprepared students en masse is not the solution.
Posted by Ms. D]]> Thu, 07 Feb 2013 19:41:18 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Ms. D]]> Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:59:18 -0800 The Stranger
The degree is a credential you need to get an interview. It's several thousand dollars skimmed off the top of a business persons career earnings.
Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings]]> Wed, 06 Feb 2013 11:33:26 -0800 The Stranger
Actually, I suspect that starting a war with China will bring a lot of manufacturing jobs back to America.
Posted by gromm]]> Tue, 05 Feb 2013 23:36:34 -0800 The Stranger
For example, most universities don't teach the "Software Flavor of the Week" that most positions absolutely require experience in. Some examples I can think of are Ruby on Rails, Documentum DB2, Tivoli, Crystal Reports, ServiceNow, etc. If you are looking to get into a lot of the corporate jobs you will need at least one(or hopefully more than one) of those programs under your belt.

There are also certifications that are really helpful that most companies really like to see that you don't get at most universities that if you can't get a company to pay for them tend to range in the $400-$3000 range.

Of course, some people would say that a lot of this is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic because we still have the problem that most of our technological advancements since around the 80's or so are skewed towards the people who have lots of money to invest at the direct cost to the people who actually need to have a job that they get paid at. The result, of course, is that people who can invest are making money hand over fist and for the people who need jobs the only real growth industries make an average of $12 an hour.
Posted by GhostDog]]> Tue, 05 Feb 2013 18:09:53 -0800 The Stranger Posted by aureolaborealis]]> Tue, 05 Feb 2013 14:56:00 -0800 The Stranger For various reasons, I needed to take out loans to go to grad school in a couple of STEM fields, and so far it has been well worth the debt. It has every indication of being more and more worth the debt as time passes.
Posted by aureolaborealis]]> Tue, 05 Feb 2013 14:52:20 -0800 The Stranger
In general with education a distinction needs to be made between school for a traditional education / middle class right of passage from that of shit that will teach you how to be useful and make a living.

Liberal arts are great for their own sake but doesn't mean anyone will want to hire you.
Posted by aardvark]]> Tue, 05 Feb 2013 14:31:05 -0800 The Stranger Posted by watchout5]]> Tue, 05 Feb 2013 07:54:30 -0800 The Stranger
The emergence of the liberal arts college came about very early in the history of this country based on the concept that an educated populace was good for everyone. Education was one of many concepts of public investment for the common good. Unfortunately the capacity to attend college became more rare because of the Great Depression, war after war, lack of middle class status, etc. After WWII the capacity to attend became more common because of the GI Bill. And we as a country became more interested in really making access to higher ed democratic because of the whole Soviet threat.

When we became successful and people had low tuition, access to some low interest rate loans and tons of grant aid----we pulled the rug out. Public investment in higher education came to a grinding halt under Reagan and we've steadily chipped away from that ever since. The elites could absolutely not bear the fact that more and more people understood that the scales of power were tipped in the elite favor. There weren't enough poor people to be battle fodder for wars. There weren't enough poor people to do the bidding of the elites and just be thankful for having a shitty toil heavy job. People actually expected something from their lives!

Thus the campaign to convince you that college is unnecessary. After all if you have no critical thinking skills, no concept of your role in the historical time line, or the way history of oligarchy comes and goes, you have no way of recognizing them when they appear again and no interest or ability to fighting it.

Posted by lauramae]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 20:39:16 -0800 The Stranger
Actually, I think that's something telling about Dr. Vedder...he chose to spend his teaching career at a state school, and always treated us as competent, capable students (I took an introductory couse and several mid-level courses from him, beyond him being my adviser). When I did actually run into him at a luncheon about a year ago (one of my (more conservative) friends said I would be interested in it, and I rolled my eyes, and then she said she wanted to speak with Dr. Vedder, and I said "I have a way to make that happen," and introduced her to him, since he still remembered me when I approached him), he noted that he knew I would do well, since I was a serious student and had a plan to succeed. It's not necessarily about where you go to school or how you do it, but what you want to get out of it. I'm sure he knows that I and many of my classmates were kids on loans, and in all my conversations with him, I know he doesn't think that loans, grants, and other aid are the crux of the problem, it's the availability of them to any and everyone who can get an "average" test score or GPA, coupled with the lack of alternatives. Student loans have been available for forever and a month...my dad used them back in the 60's. It's the general availability and the push to use them that are problematic. When my dad used them, he was an excellent student of modest means who could excel with a college education, while other students took advantage of vocational education or at least graduated high school having a firm grasp on the "three R's" (heck, my grandparents only completed 8th grade and could read, write, and do arithmetic better than half of today's high school students). And, as I've said, my mom took advantage of vocational education and career/community college to make a life. It's not that people shouldn't be educated, it's that we're pushing people into one type of education, and that isn't ideal for everyone, or even for the economy (on both the cost and the demand for employees sides).
Posted by Ms. D]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 19:09:36 -0800 The Stranger
But the reality is that the big money jobs are not as abundant as they once were, and jobs period are fairly scarce due to how many people are graduating from law school every year. The number of people from my law school who are either not working at attorneys or started their own firms (self job-creation, and rarely big money jobs) speaks to this. I took me 5 years before I was able to work up to a job/firm that paid me well (and I'm still talking less than $100k). Now I make a good salary that is nothing to sneeze at but I'm still staring down 30 years of loan payments and a principal balance that has not seemed to change at all.

That was kind of a bitch session. I think college is worthwhile for many people, but a law degree is over hyped and the whole profession could deal with a little down sizing.
Posted by lawyer]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 18:11:33 -0800 The Stranger
English majors with four year degrees earn, on average, significantly less than many people with technical education at a community college.

The lesson: if you wanna smoke pot and bullshit about books, don't go a couple hundred thousand in debt going to a liberal art college to smoke pot and bullshit about books.

If you want to earn a good living, learn a fucking skill. Nursing and accounting are reasonable choices for those scared of, or incapable of doing, Calculus.
Posted by Functional Atheist]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 17:49:39 -0800 The Stranger
Also, college and grad school does not have to be obscenely expensive. It's nice to study full time at a private university but it is really not a must. For me, I went to a state school, had merit scholarship that covered most of my tuition and worked to cover for living expenses (mom and dad paid remaining tuition which was very fortunate and helped a lot). After graduation, my jobs in college set me up with enough experience to find a job that paid jack but was with a great company. I worked full time and took advantage of their tuition reimbursement to pick up a MA which took 4 years going p/t but cost me only time and effort. Got a better job with another good co, got a second MA, another 4 years of p/t school which honestly kinda sucked--but again, it didn't cost me a dime.

Please don't think I'm doing a humble brag or some such--I really just want to point out that it is possible to get a great education without drowning in debt. It's not super fun but it's definitely doable.
Posted by jujubee80]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 17:29:19 -0800 The Stranger
BUT, I also went to school at a time when I saw my costs nearly double over undergrad and grad school. There's no reason that should have happened, and future generations will be better off than me if we can rein in the cost increases. Had my tuition increased at only the rate of inflation, I'd have as much as $200/month more in disposable income. The increases in cost need to be checked, and sending more kids through 4-year programs that don't meet their needs is not the way to do that.
Posted by Ms. D]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 17:08:47 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Bauhaus I]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 16:39:37 -0800 The Stranger
But if your main criteria include 'a school with a good football team' or 'an ivy league school', then you're probably not going to get your money's worth.
Posted by Chakolate]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 14:43:41 -0800 The Stranger Posted by cracked]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 14:29:26 -0800 The Stranger
It is a very odd situation.
Posted by wachow]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 14:12:26 -0800 The Stranger
SELECTIVELY cutting financial support for 4-year college training, or at least channeling more of that money to students who demonstrate competency and goals-driven studies is necessary. So, if you're a middle-class kid who would do it all on loans, you need to be a bit brighter to qualify for the 4-year or pay for it yourself. Or, if you're poor enough for grants, you need to demonstrate competency and progress toward graduation throughout your college career to continue receiving the grants. Of course we could combine these with creative options like...his other suggestions, to increase the types of education available to our kiddos. Let's get kids of out high school with a marketable skill (vocational education) and/or FULLY prepared for college. I'd add, let's get more kids going to community colleges where appropriate (many AA and certificate programs could land people pretty decent jobs, and at a far lower cost to both them and us than having someone with a BA working as a paralegal; community college is also far cheaper for those who aspire to a 4-year degree but need some remedial work, and we could limit loans to CC if you don't make the cut to jump right into 4-year, and then, once competent for 4-year, unleash the flood gates with some of the coursework done cheap!), and (as suggested, although not clearly) re-balance resources so that kids who do need a 4-year degree don't need remedial training of any sort to dive right in, which can shorten their college career and ALSO provides a quality level of education to all the kids...even those who don't go on to college.

So, overall...he says "too much supported spending." I agree that this is part of the problem of education cost inflation. "Unprepared students"...unless you've been living under a rock, yes, true (not all, but some). "Lack of investment in primary and secondary education as well as career education"...I've been yelling about this for years (why could my mom graduate from high school qualified to be both a secretary and a cosmetologist, but kids today have to pay their own way for that training or go to college hoping for more and then settle; why could she later pay just $2200 to get a certificate that secured her a $18/hour job (that's actually pretty good for where she lives), but my friend's husband has $10K in debt for his HVAC cert?). "Cut government support"...REFORM government support so that all kids are getting a solid education that gets them a job at the minimum cost to them and society. With minor tweaks to the conclusions, it's pretty reasonable.
Posted by Ms. D]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 14:01:46 -0800 The Stranger
Come back to me in a few more years when you and Terry have told D.J. not to go to college, that it's a waste of time and money. In fact, he's old enough now that you and Terry must be having discussions about it. Have you told DJ it is a waste of time and you aren't going to help him pay for it, that he should just go to J.C.?

Oh, and for those who say that college is the new high school, doesn't that mean you will be treated the same way high school drop outs were treated 35 years ago? I mean, it either serves that social function or it doesn't.
Posted by cracked]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 13:57:45 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Go Engineering!]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 12:54:16 -0800 The Stranger Posted by James6]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 12:51:47 -0800 The Stranger