http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2013/01/25/sl-letter-of-the-day-so-and-so Comments On: SL Letter of the Day: So And So by Dan Savage en-us Copyright 2013 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Wed, 19 Jun 2013 00:00:01 -0700 Wed, 19 Jun 2013 02:45:00 -0700 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss
On the question of how to introduce your wives; I got the feeling the real sticking point for NTFN was that people would think she was a servant, which people could assume if you just introduce her by name and give no other cues to your relationship. You could allay that by introducing her as "a close friend" instead. When you add to that that she lives with you it pretty much comes down to an outing, but at least you're getting others to ask the questions if they really want to know instead of directly dropping the poly bomb on them.
Posted by Caravelle]]> Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:38:11 -0800 The Stranger Posted by vennominon]]> Wed, 30 Jan 2013 18:15:10 -0800 The Stranger Posted by jtyler]]> Wed, 30 Jan 2013 13:47:35 -0800 The Stranger
For what it's worth, my beef was never with your relationship model. I can imagine plenty of straight marriages where the ardor has cooled that could benefit from a similar hall pass as pressure-relief valve or permanent solution. People do make good partners during dry spells (even permanent ones) and it seems a shame to blow up what you've built together over many years. I wasn't saying you weren't happy or that RJ8 and/or STyler were using you, just that the anger expressed in her first letter seemed to be conveniently and conspicuously misdirected at you and your side of the family. Again, clarifications showed that it wasn't as simple as that, and even it if was I could have said so more neutrally.
Posted by avast2006]]> Wed, 30 Jan 2013 13:16:23 -0800 The Stranger Posted by RJ8]]> Wed, 30 Jan 2013 04:42:25 -0800 The Stranger
Thanks for posting and filling in yet more details. I'm perhaps in both the "concerned" and "rubbed you the wrong way" categories due to filling in the blanks (and, man, were there a lot of blanks) with my own experiences and observations and because of, frankly, RJ8's apparent callous feelings for you, based on the words and phrases she uses. It's cliche, but truly, many of my best friends are lesbians (and far too many of my exes) but I couldn't have as a dear friend (much less a life partner) someone who came across as so dismissive of male sexuality. But I don't. And you're happy with what you have. I'm good with that.

People don't write Dan unless they have a problem and poly couples usually aren't writing to him with Miss Manners type questions about funeral etiquette. On Straight Spouse Network forums, we mostly get the walking wounded who aren't taking it all in stride so well (nor do 99% of them last as long as you three have). So my apologies for the "sampling bias" I have from having heard so many horror stories - happy and coping couples/triads don't post on support-group sites. I'll be referring some guys who just found out that they're in a MOM (mixed orientation marriage) to this thread because many of them ask for success stories during the "denial" and "bargaining" stages while processing the loss of the marriage they thought they had. Many will take solace in your success, although most will later find your thoughts about OkCupid more helpful.

Hearing your side of things makes me feel better about your situation but more importantly about the three of you as parents of your two children. Unlike @91, I think 2 happy parents can make for a better household than one, and that 3, when they're all happy about the situation, can be better than 2.
Posted by DAVIDinKENAI]]> Wed, 30 Jan 2013 02:37:37 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Old Crow]]> Wed, 30 Jan 2013 02:24:55 -0800 The Stranger
RJ8, we just don't see eye to eye on the importance of sex with a spouse--your use of the word "servicing" says it all. But it's good to know jtyler is fine with your views on what makes a marriage. And as for me and Mrs. Bloomer, don't worry--we have every intention of getting old together. I'll pass on your concern though. Cheers guys!
Posted by LateBloomer]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 23:20:05 -0800 The Stranger
@vennominon, we had actually discussed that as an option, but it's obviously not a simple solution either way. Of course, a big part of what we're trying to get across here is that "people who are boinking" does not equal "people who are married". Legally we cannot all three be married to each other, which means someone is going to be left out. Until that issue can be resolved, we're doing our best to formalize our relationship in other parts of our lives: parentage, home, bank accounts, insurance, cars, etc.

@nocutename, thank you for your comments, and I know many of the others on this thread were well-meaning, as I said before, I appreciate everyone's input. Some comments in particular just rubbed me the wrong way. If I inadvertently told you to fuck off, then I apologize.
Posted by jtyler]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:43:14 -0800 The Stranger Later comments by Styler gave others reason to be concerned on your behalf. Still later letters from RJ8 likewise made some here think you were being mistreated.

There's nothing in this whole thread that suggests anyone was trying to rip your family to pieces. RJ8 asked for advice and well-meaning people responded to the limited information that they had, putting themselves in the position of the players as best they understood and using their own emotional responses as the basis for their input/reactions/advice. Some brought life experiences that seemed somewhat similar to yours, but clearly that similarity was only surface-deep.

It is rare that all concerned parties write in to clarify. Considering that you are part of a triad, instead of a couple, it is a giant added layer of complexity. It is nice, but very unusual to get the fuller picture, and perhaps in response to the anger you three felt at everyone's mistakes in getting the biographical details of your three individual lives and backgrounds as well as the nature of your relationship as a triad, the three of you were able to work through what sounds like some big issues that were really bothering RJ8. In which case, the appropriate response is "thank you."
Posted by nocutename]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:14:04 -0800 The Stranger The Sacred and Profane Love Machine. As for the status question, the obvious solution would seem to be to keep the living arrangement as is but to realign the legalities so that the marriage in the case is between the two boinking parties. Is that available for you?

I wish you luck, but, as someone who had a hard enough time with two parents in the house, living with three parents strikes me as a perpetual nightmare for any poor child involved.
Posted by vennominon]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 21:03:23 -0800 The Stranger Posted by auntielarrie]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:47:55 -0800 The Stranger
As has already been established, I am H / Husband. Nice to meet ya. To those of you who felt it your duty to belittle or judge either NTFN / RJ8 or STyler, you may very kindly and quickly fuck off. Or better yet, have the guts to post on a public forum about something that is so close to your heart that you will go way out of your comfort zone to find an answer, and then sit back and watch the rest of the world rip you to shreds.

What did I know or suspect when STyler and I got married? Just as much as STyler did. It was only with the benefit of hindsight, after she came out, that we could look back and see signs that she had actually been repressing these feelings for probably most of her life. She and I have always been very close, but looking back, sex had only ever been a small part of our relationship. When she finally came out, I was terrified because I felt like my only option was to get a divorce (and this was encouraged by multiple therapists, family, and friends). It was a long process, but I eventually came to the realization that if I could put aside the sexual aspect for a moment, all of the other reasons why we got married in the first place were still there. So we decided to try it this way, with RJ8 moving in and me starting to date. We've certainly had our ups and downs, but we've learned and grown a ton in the process. I can honestly say that I would not want to change my family for any reason.

Why didn't I tell that particular side of my family? Because I hadn't spoken to them for more than about 30 minutes over the past couple of years, and I did not think that was the time or place. But I completely agree with RJ8 that they should know, and I will tell them. That being said, I'm reasonably certain that they won't shun me for how I live my life, yet I know for a fact what would happen if STyler told her family. Believe me, that's been a contentious point all around for a while, and it's not something that any of us is looking forward to, but I think it has to come out as well.

There have been a couple of comments about whether it's appropriate for RJ8 to call me her husband, or me to call her my wife, etc. This is not an easy thing for me, probably because I'm too analytical about it. When I introduce them to friends, coworkers, acquaintances, etc. I just use their names without any title, because I'm trying to keep them on equal footing as opposed to "my wife and this other girl" or something equally obnoxious. And that's what I did when we went for my dad's funeral. I suppose I could say "these are my wives", but then my brain starts worrying that I'm treading awfully close to yet another lovely legal quagmire of common law marriage and bigotry (seriously, go look up the elements for each of those). That's what I get for having spent too much time in law school, I'm no longer able to think like a normal human. Saying they're both my roommates doesn't do either of them justice, because I love them both far more than any roommate. So yes, I take the easy way out and punt on this one. If anybody has suggestions, constructive or otherwise, I would love to hear them.

Finally there were some comments about my relationship with someone I'm dating vis-a-vis my family. Does the fact that I live with and for all intents and purposes am married to RJ8 and STyler impact the pool of women that I could possibly date? Of course. If I were single, I could go out with all sorts of women who won't give me the time of day because I'm married. Big deal. I have dated some incredible women over the past couple of years, and most of them were perfectly fine with my family. I do tend to favor women who are already in poly relationships, because they often are looking for the same things I am (which, for those of you who care and are still reading, goes well beyond just a physical connection). I will also give a shameless plug for OkCupid, which is an incredible environment and is actually a big part of what makes this possible (ask me sometime about my experiences on ashleymadison or adultfriendfinder *shudder*).

If I have missed something, please feel free to point it out to me and I'll respond as I can. Dan Savage has been such a positive influence on our lives through the past couple of years, that if somehow, through this thread, we can give back some small bit to the community, then I will do what I can to help out.

Cheers.
Posted by jtyler]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 20:24:01 -0800 The Stranger
@86, RJ8: Yup. That would be why.

Sounds worse than I thought (if I were the husband but he can make his own triple-wide bed and sleep in it). I was assuming she simply wasn't physically/sexually attracted to him. That happens when lesbians come out. Not always but almost always.

But that she's not "emotionally able to have intercourse with him", points to one of the distinctions I make between loving (your child, parent, brother, dog, Crème brûlée, etc) and being "in love" with someone you can be vulnerable with, someone you WANT to be vulnerable to, whether that's baring your soul, your fears, or your genitals and someone whose inner life, struggles, and tender bits hold some interest for you.

Props to you for engaging in a conversation with all these strangers and clarifying where things stand. It reads like a no-holds-barred therapy session but $130/hour cheaper.

Rewriting history is normal when you've moved on from a past partner. But the W hasn't moved on from the H and yet there is so much being swept under the rug.

I've never had to come out. I've seen, sometimes VERY up close, how hard it can be, but that's different than being the formerly closeted one. Likewise, you've never been the straight spouse in a formerly, nominally straight marriage.

My gay ex and I still care for each other, I'd say we still love each other. If she switched teams again, I could imagine us making it work i.e. be "in love" with each other. But without that, for me, it would be too hard. Clearly, you three are making different choices.
Posted by DAVIDinKENAI]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:27:44 -0800 The Stranger
Nobody has a problem with it, we just find that pretty appropriate for a good room-mate and don't see it as a poly-connection for the husband. You're a part of each others' lives, but it's friendly and social and not particularly deep.
Posted by he's there but not important to the dynamic]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:45:53 -0800 The Stranger @83, sex obviously is a major part of your marriage which actually stresses me out a little for your blood spouse... Fingers-crossed he/she never gets cancer or ED or whatever because it may be terrible for them when you divorce them because they can no longer service you adequately... And Dan also gets thousands of letters every year from people looking for alternative ways to keep their relationships alive when one or both parties are no longer sexually compatible...
@84, the reason I feel they should disclose is just for these kinds of situations because even if you have little contact with them they are still family and inevitably things are going to happen that bring everyone together and we could have avoided a lot of angst, tension, and awkwardness for everyone if there had been mention of the situation prior to this, also it is not just the two of us in this, we have two kids that I hope will be proud of and comfortable with their family situation and won't feel embarrassed to talk about it or like they have to hide anything... There are going to be enough negative people they are going to have to deal with (obviously) without having to deal with it from family because the subject has been avoided. I'm just happy our son was not old enough to realize the situation... And as far as the brother comment I feel that's pretty accurate and don't understand the problem you have with it, I love him and enjoy spending time with him, we have many interests independent of hers and frequently go out without her, I am not attracted to him and treat him as I would my own family... Should I instead consider him the guy that lives in my room and helps pay the bills?
Posted by RJ8]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 16:30:15 -0800 The Stranger
You're handwaving away what other people are saying, people are observing the no sex and your words about how he's "more than a room-mate" but rarely do you hear "like a brother" and "husband" referring to the same person.
Posted by he's not intimate with you, what is there to tell others]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 13:05:51 -0800 The Stranger
I still say it should be both or neither. Given the lack of contact all around, I'm leaning towards neither. I'm not sure what you, NTFN, hope to accomplish by telling a whole bunch of people that none of you otherwise care about or have any contact with (on his side) that you three are a triad. I also don't get why it's important to not alienate a bunch of hyperconservatives (on her side) that you also don't care about or have any contact with. What are they going to do, never speak to her again? If the reason was to avoid a lot of family drama, you have just failed that goal, because all the drama is right in your nest, right now.

"And despite the fact that I am not fucking him I consider the hubby just as much my family as she is, spend just as much time with him as her, and consider him an older brother" (emphasis added)

Thank you for that clarification too; I'll just let it speak for itself.

Posted by avast2006]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 11:37:42 -0800 The Stranger
Again, if it works for all of you, great. But your inability to see this as a problem makes me wonder if you understand what H has given up. And maybe it really doesn't bother him, in which case lucky you. That puts him in a slim minority. But I find women dependably under-rate the importance of sex for guys. And yes, there's OKC for the H etc (and that's a whole other story--how do the women he meets enjoy being physical add-ons to a marriage and nothing more? but I digress), but that's just not the same thing as sharing emotional and physical intimacy. Wouldn't mind hearing from H on this one. H?
Posted by LateBloomer]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 10:07:42 -0800 The Stranger
So he didn't know know she was lesbian when he married her. And she didn't either.

I completely get that it sucks to be a gay JW. I'm an ally. Religious fundies and small-town conservatism are major reasons I helped start a PFLAG chapter. To paraphrase Zuzu Bailey in It's a Wonderful LIfe, "every time a power tool revs, a lesbian gets her wings." and it's a GOOD thing when anyone knows themselves better and gets more of what they want. But when that epiphany comes after marriage and procreation, there can be a lot of collateral damage.

>(if he could have sex with his wife) does that make him more important?

No, not more important. And quite possibly not getting laid as often. I'm not asking about more sex or less sex, but what it implies / suggests.

It sounds like you and Styler are in love with each other. Is the husband in love with anyone? Is anyone in love with the husband? Not friendly, loving, good friends, "like a big brother". But "in love" - deeply emotionally invested in, romantically attracted to, and (mostly) seeing them through slightly rose-colored glasses?

Getting laid is easy if you have a hall pass and brush your teeth regularly. Being mutually in love with someone, however, sounds VERY problematic for him in this situation.
Posted by DAVIDinKENAI]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:57:18 -0800 The Stranger
Then maybe he'd answer, since Styler won't:

Did you think your wife was gay, bi, or straight when you married her?

Six years into your marriage, when things changed, what did you see as the choice in front of you? Could an emotional and physical relationship with your wife have continued if you wanted it? Could you have as much time with your child if you hadn't agreed to the triad?

Did you feel like you'd won the lottery? Or more akin to Elias Boudinot signing the Treaty of New Echota in 1835?

IME, fewer forced/uninformed choices have happy endings compared to free choices.
Posted by DAVIDinKENAI]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:28:56 -0800 The Stranger @77, I'm sorry the person in your previous relationship was a total douchebag but that wasn't what happened here... She truly didn't know when she married him, it was never anything she was even allowed to consider (JW) and I witnessed the incredible mental and emotional affect it had on her to acknowledge it...So did he... And he has told me that even if I left and his relationship went back to n
"normal" he still would go out with other women... He's not being use, he's not unhappy, and if he was he has had plenty of chances to get rid of me or walk out the door...

I do enjoy the banter though :-)
Posted by RJ8]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:15:29 -0800 The Stranger
NTFN clearly disagrees. The Wife/Styler seems happy to leave everyone to their own preferences, which is a bit disingenuous given that she benefits most from the current setup. So, after all that, Dan's advice seems correct - NTFN either has to fight hard for a major renegotiation, or has to accept that she's not going to get what she wants on this.

If NTFN gets what she wants, it's likely the Husband will suffer by having his relatively low status in the relationship made clearer in private and in public. Will this screw up the delicate balance of the whole thing? Is it kinder to him to let things continue as they are?
Posted by misspiggy]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 08:03:06 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Styler]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:58:31 -0800 The Stranger
Styler,

What's wrong with answering the question, "Did he think you were straight when you married?"

I hear you say he agreed to the triad, but wasn't that after your first child? Was the "H&W & child, only, in love and in an emotionally and physically intimate relationship" still on the table as a choice for him? Or had that choice been removed? I may well be projecting, having been through a similar wringer myself, but, from afar, "we're all as happy as we could be" just doesn't square with your and NTFN's descriptions of the relationship. As someone above posted, maybe he's thrilled to be horn-dogging around while taking turns as a tri-parent.

But maybe not. Someone in love with his child and maybe still in Love with his wife, will say yes to a situation that wasn't of his making, wasn't what he signed up for, and was hardly his first choice.

My comments aren't because I think it's a weird relationship model or that there's anything inherently wrong with such a set-up. Rather, it's because I'm familiar with scores of MOMs that this triad being his preference over a more intimate relationship with his wife does't seem very likely. Not with how Styler and NTFN have described the triad, its history and their feelings for the husband.

Does he know this conversation is going on about him? That would be telling - if only 2 of the triad are in the loop.
Posted by DAVIDinKENAI]]> Tue, 29 Jan 2013 02:53:35 -0800 The Stranger