Comments On: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard by Goldy

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

dwightmoodyforgetsthings — Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:10:56 -0800

@45- Is there anything about your charter school experience that demonstrated that the changes made in a charter school couldn't be made in a public system? Because what the data shows is that charters (as a system) DO NOTHING.

Some charter schools do better, but so do some public schools.
Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

SunnySeattleite — Wed, 28 Nov 2012 00:51:19 -0800

Charter schools are not a cure-all. But they can be an good tool to getting the students who are not served by their current schools more targeted support. I worked in a "brand name" charter as well as a public traditional school and saw my charter students get more time, teachers get better training and overall, my students grew nearly 2 years on average in every subject (something I didn't see in my traditional school in the same neighborhood).

Charter schools can also suck, and there are plenty of examples of that. But when the data shows over and over again that low-income and minority students in Seattle cannot compete with more affluent peers in this city school system, is it not time to try something different?
Posted by SunnySeattleite

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

dwightmoodyforgetsthings — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:53:21 -0800

@35- "For example, union contracts that don't sufficiently consider the quality of worker performance could be made legally unenforceable." Speaking of legally unenforceable, let's talk about "Don't sufficiently consider the quality"... You have to define both quality and sufficiency, and good luck with that.
Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

seandr — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 09:44:36 -0800

@sarah70: And just how would you measure workers' performance except by using their employers' grading

Realized I only answered this indirectly. Where possible, performance measures should factor in feedback from the customers/clients that the union employee serves. In the case of teachers, that would be the students and parents. In the case of the SPD, that would be the citizenry as represented by the OPA.

It should also factor in peer evaluations.

Of course, some unskilled jobs can be easily reduced to a number - number of apples picked, number of defects detected - and using objective measures in those cases makes perfect sense.

Teaching, however, is not one of these kinds of jobs.
Posted by seandr

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

seandr — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 09:33:26 -0800

@sarah70: We use standardized tests because they are cheap, they produce a number, and we seem to believe that given the right teacher, every child can be an above-average student.

Teaching quality accounts for only a small part of the variability among student performance on achievement tests. Most of it is a function of the student's talent and work ethic. And of course, some of it is completely random given imperfect test/retest reliability.

So what should we use? As I said above:
2) Promote and fire teachers purely on the basis of performance as evaluated by administrators, peers, and, most notably, students and parents.

This is effectively the same way employee performance is measured in every other industry.
Posted by seandr

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

paulus22 — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 09:27:28 -0800

I'd put class size up to number one on the list of things that needs to be fixed to truly reform education. I'm a teacher. I've had 40+ students in some of my high school classes this year, and the issues that have come up with classroom management and workload (grading) are enormous. I've felt horrible about my job for the first time ever because of this simple addition of ten more kids per class.

Class size doesn't matter. Whatever. I'm a pretty damned good teacher, but with those numbers I saw myself starting to fail. I'm actually really concerned about my student's test scores this year because of it, which now reflect on my teaching. Sorry. My teaching had little to do with the negatives that happened in my classes because of these huge loads.

If we get high school classes down to about 20 kids, I guarantee you they will learn more, we will be able to individualize education more, and we will enjoy our jobs more, ALL important elements to improve a student's chance to learn.

But class size reduction = money = not even talked about as a meaningful and important reform. Listen to teachers, not Bill Gates. We know what's up. We care and want your kids to do well and have a great public education. We have answers, they just might not be the ones that the public really want to hear (especially since so much discourse is placed elsewhere right now).
Posted by paulus22

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

westello — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 08:51:25 -0800

@33 - good thoughts. But ed reformers aren't interested in those things even though most of them work and would make a difference. (Bill Gates says class size doesn't matter.)

But geographical diversity? Don't get that one.

As far as the social issues, well, poverty doesn't stop at the schoolhouse door. What do you do with a hungry child? A child who needs glasses to read? A homeless kid? Act like that isn't there?

FYI, in Seattle at least, high school students get Metro passes if they need transportation (paid for by the district but cheaper by far than yellow bus service). Many of the middle school students receive that as well.
Posted by westello

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

Clayton — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 06:07:11 -0800

Even if charter schools succeeded at a 59 % rate (compared to 50% for public schools), that's hardly anything to brag about; if my students score 59%, they fail.
Posted by Clayton

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

Karlheinz Arschbomber — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 01:55:16 -0800

Charter schools are just the current privatization scam, looting the public funds for special interests.

Another form of looting is how the school budgets are used to handle the burden of handling damaged kids, where the massive costs are generally custodial and therapeutic, not in the supposed mission of education. This is akin to the "hey, everybody has free health care - just go to the Emergency Room" bullshit.

So the schools get shat upon, the kids cheated, and public funds get robbed. Win-win-win.

K.A., a product of Philadelphia Public Schools (back when they were decent)
Posted by Karlheinz Arschbomber

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

sarah70 — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 23:50:00 -0800

seandr, you say "4) Stop using student performance on standardized tests as a measure of teacher performance. "

But then in a later comment you say "For example, union contracts that don't sufficiently consider the quality of worker performance could be made legally unenforceable. "

So why is what's bad for measuring teachers' performance by student scores good for measuring union contracts by workers' performance? And just how would you measure workers' performance except by using their employers' grading, which of course would defeat the purpose of union bargaining with employers as partners?
Posted by sarah70

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

StuckInUtah — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:26:26 -0800

@32 if you did a Google search and found studies that show standardized tests work (whatever that means - work at what? Teaching kids how to take multiple guess tests?) then chances are quite good that you didn't find quality, peer-reviewed research with reliable results. Sadly, what masquerades as "research" these days is so biased and inaccurate and ideologically-based that it might as well be a Faux News broadcast. Think-tank studies are NOT research.

Posted by StuckInUtah

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

seandr — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:20:15 -0800

@34: While there are those who are mainly interested in shooting public education in the head, there are many more who want to see it succeed.

The main challenge is building consensus on what do. That's certainly not going to be easy - there is such a wide range strongly held but ultimately misguided opinions on education reform, on both ends of the political spectrum. But who knows, maybe with a little help the pendulum will swing back towards common sense.

P.S. The problem with unions is that they end up screwing their customers and clients. Just look at the SPD for a glaringly obvious example. They are also necessary, at least in some cases, so we can't just get rid of them. I think it's time to regulate them (or at least as they apply to government work). For example, union contracts that don't sufficiently consider the quality of worker performance could be made legally unenforceable.
Posted by seandr

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

floater — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 21:49:09 -0800

@33 Sounds good, but good luck making all that a reality. Promote or fire teachers based on performance? Not with the teachers' union. (And I generally support organized labor.) The abandonment of standardized testing? God, you wish. This is the method the federal government uses to generate excuses for defunding public education. That is surely not going away. (And what better way of helping a struggling school district than by taking away even more resources?) Smaller class sizes? Do you think the federal and state governments are going to provide the necessary funding? With this charter school thing, precisely the opposite is going to happen.

On a broader perspective, the momentum the last few decades has been to take down public school reforms and go back to the days when only the middle and upper class had access to adequate grade school education. The poor will be herded together into dead-end schools where they will have no motivation or incentive to not drop out, which means that social advancement will be essentially impossible. Poverty will be passed along through generations like a genetic predisposition. (That's kinda the case now but it will be much worse once the poor are shut out of educational opportunities for advancement.)

So things are looking bad for public education. And once again, good intentions only get lip service. This isn't about improving public education at all.

But this is why we can't just give up in defeat. The longer we let the greedy mosquitoes suck on the blood, the harder it will be to reverse the damage.
Posted by floater

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

seandr — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 21:15:24 -0800

If you want to improve public education, you might want to look at what makes actual private schools (as opposed to charter schools) successful to see if there are ideas we can borrow. Here are a few off the top of my head:

1) Flunk kids who don't perform to standard. Expel those who consistently disrupt class and waste everyone else's time.
2) Promote and fire teachers purely on the basis of performance as evaluated by administrators, peers, and, most notably, students and parents.
3) Give teachers and administrators more freedom in choosing and teaching the curriculum.
4) Stop using student performance on standardized tests as a measure of teacher performance.
5) Our educational system should be focused on education. If providing top quality free education doesn't "close the achievement gap", that problem should be dealt with by social service agencies, which are better equipped to deal with poverty, drug/alcohol dependency, child neglect, child abuse, etc.
6) Stop chasing educational fads. We know how to teach math, and we have for more than half a century.
7) Smaller class sizes.
8) More opportunities and freedom for parents and the community to contribute, especially financially.
9) Geographical diversity.
10) Transportation should be the parent's problem, or possibly Metro's or the city's, not the school system's (follows from 9).

Posted by seandr

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

Seattle14 — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:25:09 -0800

@30 Maybe we are falling behind because our students aren't being taught the right material. or perhaps there isn't enough focus on science and math.

I did a Google search and found studies where standardized tests did work. I also have my personal experience of my and my classmates in schools who did well on tests like the WSAL and SAT because we had a basic understanding of the subjects. From what I recall the questions on these tests were fairly basic anyways. But we may have to agree to disagree here.
Posted by Seattle14

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

westello — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:24:42 -0800

@26, they won by 40k votes. It's hardly a mandate and yes, it is our business to keep up with how charters are doing in other states.

No one is walking away in defeat on this one (no matter how many business types wish it were so).
Posted by westello

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 19:57:40 -0800

@22

Well, you could use the Google to read any number of studies which demonstrate that standardized tests fail to measure exactly that, basic understanding of math, English, etc. Or advanced understanding of any subject, for that matter. They don't work.

Standardized tests are popular because they're cheap, and they take a nebulous, complex, difficult question and reduce it to a simple number. The number is wrong, but it authoritative and it's easy to understand. And, it bears repeating, cheap.

Or you could simply look at education in the US for the last 40 years. Every year, more standardized testing. More and more and more testing. More tests, long tests, short tests, diverse tests of every kind. Yet every year, the US falls further behind. They don't work.
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

sauce in mercer island? — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 19:33:11 -0800

@27 how noble sounding. yet someone pointed out you send your kid to mercer island, is that true?

you say the state foisted charters onto philly. tell me, the parents in philly are the ones picking charters for their kids aren't they. Who in heck are you to sit here in seattle and tell them they are wrong?

btw I don't see you pushing to merge mercer island schools with seattle schools. now why is that. you also opposed the levy swap which if seattle times wasn't lying today means that richer districts will pay more, aiding poorer ones. (the point that it doesn't increase total funding seems true, and is a separate point). why are you progressive for most things involving public funds but not for this?

the charter school advocates include: millions of parents and students picking charter schools; many nonprofits running them; folks like lisa macfarlane, barack obama, arne duncan, cory booker, mitch landrieu, the mayor of dc, rahm emanuel, and many other progressives. charter schools advocates don't want you to throw up your hands goldy. they want you to fight more fairly and not simply cheelead your point of view -- they want you to actuallhy make sense. you might start with answering the charge you send your kid to mercer island. true? so it's okay for you to have choice, just not others, is that it?
Posted by sauce in mercer island?

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

"I disagree -- ban you!" — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 19:11:30 -0800

@20 -- what, ban someone for pointing out that the dude fighting charters is sending his daughter to mercer island not seattle schools?

Posted by "I disagree -- ban you!"

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

Goldy — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 19:09:55 -0800

@26 That's exactly what the charter school advocates would like us to do: Throw up our arms and walk away. In fact, the battle to protect our public schools is only just beginning—one school, one district, one legislative session at a time.
Posted by Goldy

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

Brandon J. — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:52:28 -0800

This is pathetic Goldy, you lost, give it a rest. You're like Mitt Romney if he had kept campaigning for president after November 6th. Even that "Gay Dude for Romney" troll had the good sense to go away after the election. I mean yeah, you're right about Charter Schools, your public education system will be dismantled and turned into a money bong for wealthy investors, but there's absolutely nothing you can do about that now. You know that, right? Because you're still posting as if the election were weeks away, instead of weeks behind us.
Posted by Brandon J.

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

Goldy — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:41:39 -0800

@23 It wasn't a corner building. A couple of houses in from 23rd, on the south side of the street. Or maybe I'm off by a block. I don't remember the address.

The apartment was so cheap because it was in the basement, with radiators and pipes in a low ceiling. But it had access to a little patio in the back.

Only thing else distinguishing I can tell you is that there was this elderly, retired, bachelor attorney who lived in one of the apartments upstairs, and who had lived there forever. He had no idea where he was going to go. It was very sad. And the new owner was a total dick about it. When I called to complain that workers had clogged the sewer so that it backed up into my shower when somebody upstairs flushed the toilet, he laughed "so sue me," and hung up the phone.

Posted by Goldy

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

Doctor Memory — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 17:38:44 -0800

@23: no, the Rosenbach is between 20th and 21st on Delancy -- I was hanging out up where Delancey terminated at 17th st. I actually lived way the hell up near Erie Avenue in Germantown, but for obvious reasons circa 1987-88 strongly preferred to spend my time at my friend's place downtown: North Philly was a very strange and not necessarily pleasant to be a transplanted Jewish kid from the midwest at the time.
Posted by Doctor Memory

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

Supreme Ruler Of The Universe — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 16:57:44 -0800

#17

This is getting weirdly synchronous.

My building was also being converted, and it was owned by an investment banker by the name of Scott Warren. (Did you see the Google link I posted above...could we have been in the same building, in fact?)

$290 sounds like a great bargain...mine was $570. My (now) ex-wife and I were renting there. It was both great and terrible.

Because the landlord was renovating it was like having 1/3rd of a really great floor in a townhouse, with the plaster board randomly splitting it up. Only one bedroom, very tiny. The best part was the living area which had this rounded set of tall windows that reached up to the high ceiling and a bench...great to look out at the street below.

The worst part was the kitchen, a tiny sliver of space...with roaches that parked themselves underneath a pegboard for utensils.plentiful and quite disgusting...although at that time I was eating many of my meals at hip restaurants down in South Street...cruising all the bookstores and punk shops as well as the edges of the music scene.

I liked the little grocery store on the corner and the restaurants. The height of yuppiesm and trendy ones blossomed.

@12

If I remember right, weren't you somewhere near the James Joyce museum?
Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe

Re: When Pennsylvania Charter Schools Performed Worse, State Officials Used a More Lenient Standard

Seattle14 — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 16:56:54 -0800

@ 2 You sure, because it seems to me all those tests do is make you you have a basic understanding of math, english, etc/
Posted by Seattle14