Comments On: Re: Yeah, OK, But... by Paul Constant http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/04/14/re-yeah-ok-but Comments On: Re: Yeah, OK, But... by Paul Constant en-us Copyright 2009 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Tue, 24 Nov 2009 00:00:01 -0800 Tue, 24 Nov 2009 06:00:00 -0800 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
That's not the best analogy. Librarians are still very much custodians of information (e.g., http://www.hathitrust.org ).
Posted by librarian]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:07:05 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]> Posted by michael strangeways]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:20:18 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
What they should not do is say I have to support them because I read that as saying they can't think of any other good reason for me to shop there.
Posted by elenchos]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:26:54 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
I was a little "huh" at first too, but his points all make sense when taken together.
Posted by Jigae]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:25:02 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]> Posted by infrequent]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:12:45 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
Around 2000, Seattle lost a flock of real career booksellers—people who wanted to be booksellers if they could earn a livable wage—because the lack of profitability pushed them into other fields. I think the lazy, cheap booksellers @michael strangeways is talking about are actually a symptom of Amazon, rather than a problem with bookselling.

And @michael strangeways: I'm not talking about keeping the publishing system intact. Used bookstores don't bother me in the least. I'm talking about having a bookstore that has knowledgeable employees and is actually suited for its environment. The bookstore that most often fits that description is the local independent bookstore.
Posted by Paul Constant]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:06:10 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
and who the hell goes to bookstores to have a meaningful experience with a clerk? Booklovers go to bookstores to BROWSE...I don't need to have a cheery book chat with an English major with a low wage job about the fabulous world of books...I AM that person and so are most of my friends and I'll get my book info from them, the NY Times and various and sundry websites. And for every delightful clerk/owner in an indie bookstore I've come across three who were either clueless about books or only invested in the kinds of books THEY love or a snotty, know it all grungie hipster, (my favorite example: a very attractive female friend of mine bought a pile of Nazi/WWII themed books to use as research for her novel at Powells in Portland. The male grungie clerk sneered at her, "Shouldn't you be buying chicklit?")

And I'm also guessing that a majority of booklovers commenting on this thread (myself included) probably buy a large number of their books from USED bookstores like HalfPrice Books or other local used stores which means we're ripping off the publishers and writers of the books since they're not getting any cut of that transaction...
Posted by michael strangeways]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:45:49 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
Memory

A little bookstore used to call to me.
Eagerly I would go to it
hungry for the news
and the sure friendship.
It never failed to provide me
with whatever I needed.
Bookstore with a donkey in its heart,
bookstore full of clouds and
sometimes lightning, showers.
Books just in from Australia
books by madmen and giants.
Toucans would alight on my stovepipe hat
and solve mysteries with a few chosen words.
Picasso would appear in a kimono
requesting a discount, and then
laugh at his own joke.
Little bookstore with its belly
full of wisdom and confetti,
with eyebrows of wildflowers -
and customers from Denmark and Japan,
New York and California, psychics
and lawyers, clergymen and hitchhikers,
the wan, the strong, the crazy,
all needing books, needing directions,
needing a friend, or a place to sit down.
But then one day the shelves began to empty
and a hush fell over the store.
No new books arrived.
When the dying was done,
only a fragile, tattered thing remained,
and I haven't the heart to name it.

- James Tate
Posted by michael wells]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 10:14:25 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]> Thanks for the link, I didn't know that existed. It does not give me a listing of only books available in Seattle. Maybe I am using it wrong, I don't know. Fnarf, of course I don't know what will replace these stores, but maybe a barber shop, clothing store, bar, or restaurant? Something that is supported by the community, and not available online.
Paul, I'm sure shop owners were worried about the Sears/Roebuck catalog costing them business and altering the retail landscape at the turn of the century. It did. It wasn't the end of the world. I'm not a fan of trickle down economic anything, but Amazon is very different than WalMart in many ways. I'm sorry some of your book community is hurting, but such is the nature of being in business. If these same book store owners struck it rich and opened 20 stores, would they share their profits lavishly with all their employees and customers? Would they then become the enemy because of scale?. Spend your money where you feel comfortable, and I'll do the same. I don't like most large corporations or the way the do business, but I do like Amazon. I don't like Microsoft, but I do like Google. These are decisions we make as consumers.
Posted by seattle bike guy]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:11:48 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
Amazon isn't responsible for the collapse of our economy. Neither is Walmart, as much as I can't stand what it's done to small towns across the country. These are companies that have grown because they offer more value than their smaller competitors. Companies that give you more for less are engines of the economic growth. That's how real wealth is generated.


Have you seen the documentary about Wal-Mart? Your "real wealth" is going straight to the top of the company and the rest isn't even staying within our borders. There is no trickle down here. I'm more in favor of everyone getting a little more richer than some of us getting incredibly richer.
Posted by Paul Constant]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 08:27:10 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
Can we all agree that it's a bad thing if Amazon becomes a monopoly, as it seems possible it might be becoming?

It's not that this was a deliberate act -- it's the fact that a "glitch" could instantly remove these books from existence. And based on the nature of their catalog or the nature of our culture, the books that got delisted all dealt with marginalized people. In a world with nothing but Amazon and Borders, this essentially means the books are gone.

I'm not saying we should support overpriced local stores (i.e. ones with a markup beyond the actual suggested price of an item), but capitalism flourishes through competition. And small business do play an important role in the creation of community.

None of this is that complicated!

Posted by Jigae]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 07:21:45 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
Anyway, I don't think the on-line purchasing option is evil, and I don't bemoan people for choosing to shop that way. I do it myself sometimes when I am lazy or know exactly what I want and don't feel like hunting for it (though on Amazon I almost always buy from one of their partner sellers, which often offers the same books for used prices -- and still supports indie stores). But the elusive power and joy of browsing is one thing that actual physical bookstores (and record stores and knick knack shops, ets) have over Amazon and their ilk any day.
Posted by Resident Clinton]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 07:04:21 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]> I agree that Amazon may be a boon for the rural bibliophile, but for city-dwellers, the local bookstore is the way to go. (And, while we're on the subject of public libraries, I asked my library for it several weeks before I broke down and bought it, and it's still not in the catalogue. Not even an On Order record.
Posted by For the booksellers]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 06:54:52 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
Propping up failing businesses out of nostalgia does not work.
Posted by Brandon J.]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 03:55:39 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
Dude's life is getting changed on the reg thanks to local booksellers.
Posted by Ch-Ch-Changes]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:33:30 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]> Amazon isn't responsible for the collapse of our economy. Neither is Walmart, as much as I can't stand what it's done to small towns across the country. These are companies that have grown because they offer more value than their smaller competitors. Companies that give you more for less are engines of the economic growth. That's how real wealth is generated.

The economy collapsed because of stupid real estate investing on the part of consumers and banks. The real estate bubble of the last 5 years was purely psychological with no fundamentals to back it up. Now that the psychology has changed, the economy is contracting accordingly.

But Amazon? It has solid fundamentals. That makes it part of the solution, not the problem.

Posted by seandr]]> Tue, 14 Apr 2009 23:41:52 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]> however, a lot of people who live in cities do so because they want to be around other people and have a lot of opportunities to see art and culture and politics, in person. so for us, to lose things like indie bookstores where the people know what they're doing, it's painful. especially if you're both a city person and a book person, there's nothing like a building full of books and other people, strangers or friends, who love them and know a lot about them.
but i don't think we should do so much work to win over people who should probably live in a tree house with a mail slot. talk to your family on skype, buy your books on amazon, get your food by delivery. but don't trash talk my bookstore.

and to the people who think amazon is improving people's access to information, you're only partially right. if they become the main way people get their information (at least the book form) then they get to control the flow of information, and just wait till someone you don't like or someone who doesn't like you gets ahold of the search algorithms. wait, that's what started all this, isn't it...
Posted by annam]]> Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:35:19 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
If you go to www.bookfinder.com you will find listings for pretty much every used book available to buy on the web -- and if you purchase directly from the used book websites (alibris, biblio, abebooks), Amazon doesn't get a kickback.
Posted by Becca]]> Tue, 14 Apr 2009 22:14:40 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]> Posted by Fnarf]]> Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:32:13 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]> I think we're mainly on the same page on this. The reason I will never shop for bikes online is exactly the same reason I buy books online. I mainly buy used. I am too cheap/poor to buy brand new anything. If I buy something new, its things I need immediately, like tubes, cables, or broken parts. I just bought my new DSLR used. From Glazers. Which will probably survive. They run a great store, and have great deals on used stuff. Kens Camera? Won't miss it. The passing of these stores is part of the cycle of things, to be replaced with things that we do support. I used to try and find my used books locally, but it was a giant waste of time. If there was a searchable index of every used book in Seattle with prices and location, I wouldn't use Amazon.
Posted by seattle bike guy]]> Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:25:50 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
Why wasn't the explanation, - "It's a glitch, a mistake, delisting these books was not intentional, and we are working to fix it." Good enough?

Amazon came out and said "WE DID NOT INTENTIONALLY BAN THESE BOOKS." and then worked non-stop to rectify the problem as soon as they could.

Please explain to me what it would have taken for you to be satisfied? The source code for their catalog system? The database schema? A photocopy of the termination paperwork for the guy responsible?

If Amazon did this on purpose I could see the outrage, but it's like you guys got so worked up over this that you can't admit that you overreacted just a bit so now rather than tear Amazon down over banning the books (which would be COMPLETELY understandable) you are tearing them down over how long it took them to fix the problem and the specific words used to convey that it was a mistake (glitch, bug, user error, mistake they all equal NOT INTENTIONAL)

Posted by Here's a xanax]]> Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:10:33 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
You know why I like amazon and other online stores? Because like millions of other people in the world, when I order something from these not so local retailers I have already researched the subject to the Nth degree and unfortunately my local retailers just doesn't seem to have it in stock or they don't have the buying power to get it. When I'm waving my money around to purchase something, I expect results and well they deliver.
Posted by I rant you listen]]> Tue, 14 Apr 2009 21:04:52 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
Camera stores are disappearing too.
Posted by Fnarf]]> Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:59:58 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]>
That's the kind of thing you're dealing with. EACH of those millions -- and millions more if you count out-of-print books sold used -- has a market somewhere. Before Amazon, we could barely dream of having a shot at seeing those; now they're a click away. No special orders, no year-long book searches making the rounds by postcard.
Posted by Fnarf]]> Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:56:52 -0700 The Stranger <![CDATA[Re: Re: Yeah, OK, But...]]> I'm sure there is no way to answer your bicycle question that will calm your book panic. I don't, however, buy any bike parts that I can't touch first. Books are another story. Some things you just don't need to handle if you know exactly what you want. All bookstores won't go under, just enough to balance out with actual demand. People like yourself and others who like to book shop in person will keep some stores afloat. The days of words on paper are slowly ticking down, and I'm not particularly freaked out. Sorry.
Posted by seattle bike guy]]> Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:43:17 -0700 The Stranger