Comments On: Do Women Have Too Many Rights? by Cienna Madrid

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

kersy — Thu, 03 May 2012 23:33:56 -0700

Hover Dog may be right that pro-choicers come off as having a singular perspective, but I find it hard to be accommodating when people refuse to recognize my basic bodily autonomy and advocate forced birth. I shouldn't have to argue for basic human rights. It is emotionally exhausting.
Posted by kersy

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

kersy — Thu, 03 May 2012 23:30:07 -0700

Liveblogging of event here!

http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012…
Posted by kersy

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

MarkJobba — Tue, 01 May 2012 22:49:14 -0700

The comments on this page are repulsive. The church and the 'pro-life' crowd spends millions of dollars helping the poor, single mothers and babies through adoption. It makes me sick to see the biased uneducated comments on this page.
Posted by MarkJobba

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

GoBackToTexas — Tue, 01 May 2012 18:32:45 -0700

Email them: toomanyrights@gmail.com
Posted by GoBackToTexas

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

l23 — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:39:32 -0700

Come to the counter-protest!
https://www.facebook.com/events/44149347…
Posted by l23

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

True Feminist — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 01:43:21 -0700

I believe that people are misunderstanding the nature of the question; it is meant to shed light on the difference between actual human rights and those which are currently recognized by our government. For example, the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are commonly agreed-upon human rights. However, the currently recognized 'right' to abortion treads upon the right to life of the pre-born.
Posted by True Feminist

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

mtnlion — Mon, 23 Apr 2012 15:54:45 -0700

All interesting points, mostly recycled. I can't say for sure "when life begins," that's a philosophical argument (or a religious one) and so I don't even believe such a question should enter the political sphere when taking a stance on the legality of it. Frankly, I don't give a shit when life begins and I literally have no opinion on that matter.

I am a pragmatist. I like things that work. And I believe our laws should also be based on that which works in real life, not in our precious little sensitive hearts who can't even handle an ASPCA advertisement without crying. When abortion is illegal, that doesn't work. Women still find ways and it's awful for them and their spouses don't always support them and can you imagine having to go to jail after going through a severely physically draining procedure that sometimes lasts *for days?!* Some women died that way! Doctors went to jail over that shit. Criminalizing abortion is a disaster and it creates so many more health problems than it solves.

I am pro-choice, but I oppose abortion; I think it's a damn shame not every girl is made aware of her contraceptive choices and/or doesn't readily have access to it and has to go through the pain and emotional turmoil of having the procedure. And yes, that cluster of cells had massive potential and if you think about it that way, it's too bad. But having it be illegal is for sure a fail; it just doesn't fucking work.

I don't even care if one's position is religious or not, I think philosophy in general should be kept out of politics. Keep abortion legal because otherwise it's much worse; it's that simple.
Posted by mtnlion

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

David from Chicago — Mon, 23 Apr 2012 11:15:49 -0700

@ Hover Dog I too am pro choice but I share your opinion that folks on both sides of the issue would be well served if they viewed those on the other side as having a point. Some issues really have only one reasonable side: there is no legit way to oppose gay marriage, for example. But abortion is not one of those slam dunks. Folks who consider it as such are, in my view, making a mistake. The world is a complicated place and some issues have serious trade-offs, even if in the end one decides to support one side. Not recognizing these trade-offs as such suggests shallow thinking or an unacceptable amount of bias.
Posted by David from Chicago

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

Ken Mehlman — Mon, 23 Apr 2012 05:58:28 -0700

@38 The pro-life crowd doesn't push for programs that help poor mothers/families because they don't actually give a shit about protecting babies, born or unborn. That's just something they say to make their hateful beliefs more palatable to mainstream voters. What they really want to do is to punish women for having pre-marital sex by saddling them with an unplanned pregnancy and then condemning them to a life of poverty. Limiting access to birth control, banning abortion, and not helping single mothers all advance that agenda.
Posted by Ken Mehlman

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

watchout5 — Mon, 23 Apr 2012 05:47:54 -0700

I really hate having abstract arguments about abortion "rights", we really need to shift the debate as to how the government reacts to it IF AT ALL. Abortion is a medical procedure, it's a moral choice, it's absolutely not the government's business or right to step in 2 days after a potential pregnancy and tell that woman and her doctor what to do with it, I don't care how extreme of an anti-abortionist you may be, if you're judging life based on the day after unprotected sex you're not actually talking about the issue you're talking about the actions you would personally take. You can have the most extreme personal views on abortion all you want, but when you go around telling everyone else they have no right to it because of your personal moral choice you're abusing the power of the government for your personal attacks. I do not see that life inside the womb as exactly equal to every single other child on the planet, I'd call it human starting at the 3rd trimester. WE DO NOT LIVE IN A WORLD THAT VALUES ANY LIFE, PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO VALUE A LIFE THAT ISN'T EVEN LIFE YET. This whole idea that "actions have consequences" so "you have to carry the baby to term because you made the stupid decision to have unprotected sex" as if that's the only way you could ever get pregnant was to be careless... so like why the fuck do we act like human biology is that complicated? You know how easy it is for girls in puberty to get pregnant. HELLO THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT OF HUMANITY.

In conclusion ABORTION IS NOT A FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL, however it's none of the government's business how other people want to use or abuse the service. In my life events I can say with 100% certainty if a woman was ever stupid enough or unlucky enough to choose abortion SHE WILL NEVER WANT TO HAVE ANOTHER ABORTION AGAIN. Abortion is the best 'be careful' ad, you don't need to shame them with telling them they're no different than a murderer. Please stop acting like women want abortions, it's pretty damn insulting to assume women want this service because they want to use it. Women who get abortions get it mainly because they need it. Because they already have too many kids. Stop using the government as some kind of moral tool. Please start encouraging condom use and anal sex.
Posted by watchout5

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

Patricia Kayden — Mon, 23 Apr 2012 04:32:43 -0700

The "pro-life" people should be called "anti-choice" since that's what they are. Furthermore, are they against the death penalty, wars, etc.? Probably not.

And what do "pro-life" people do once the fetus is born? Do they push for programs that help poor mothers/families?

I am pro-choice because I respect a woman's choice to choose whether or not she wants to carry a pregnancy to term. And I am pro-life because I believe that society should help poor families raise the children brought into the world.
Posted by Patricia Kayden

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

Amanda — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 21:13:03 -0700

If you read my comment, you'd see I'm a pro-choice person who's able to see some value in certain pro-life positions, so the fact that an abortion debate exists hasn't made me hate the other side. And I think most people would disagree that abortion is a non-issue with no moral dimension, which is why this discussion will never go away, dumb as that may seem to someone who's mind is so made up about it.
Posted by Amanda

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

malcolmxy — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 17:49:53 -0700

@35 - it's a comment section. There's not a lot of room for the entire nuanced position. My point was that it's a lose/lose argument that always heats up around election season because that's what everyone running for office likes - you and the other guy hating each other, wasting time on an argument that gets both of you nowhere while achieving the maximum hatred for each other, thus gauranteeing that you remain divided and they needn't actually address any of the issues that are actually achievable.

Plus, it's a privacy issue, not a moral one. Framing it as a moral issue is ridiculous, and trying to legislate it as one is even more ridiculous.

(Also, many pregnancies end in miscarriage. The fetus is only what it is at any moment in time, so while your argument isn't oversimplified, it is completely specious.)
Posted by malcolmxy

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

Amanda — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 13:27:31 -0700

@27 -- Except that a person doesn't have to be religious to feel conflicted about abortion. Look at Christopher Hitchens' stance on abortion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8HhTKzmv…

Or even Bill Maher's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeGBmCOF9…

@34 -- You're oversimplifying. To parents who want the unborn child, it's much more than a clump of cells dividing that in no way rises to the level of a human being. Even to those who don't want it, it does evolve past being a clump of dividing cells at some point, doesn't it? And if that clump of dividing cells isn't human, what is it?
Posted by Amanda

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

malcolmxy — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 11:55:59 -0700

Oh, God. I just read through the comments. Of course this turned into an abortion debate...

Abortion is the destruction of life, plain and simple - any scientist worth their weight in salt will tell you this. Is it murder? Of course not. It's a clump of cells dividing that, in no way rises to the level of human being, being flushed out of the uterus.

But, because of that, it's a lose/lose argument when framed as a moral debate. Focus on the real issue (the government controlling EVERYONE'S bodies...ya know, just like with so-called Obamacare), or it doesn't matter what the other side is saying, both sides lose the argument, and I lose my right to privacy.

This is the kind of shit they use to obfuscate the real issues and problems on which you probably agree, for the most part, with the other side. Engaging them as they do that is dumber than their argument is.
Posted by malcolmxy

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

malcolmxy — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 11:47:47 -0700

Last I checked, a women's right to an abortion centered around the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution and the implied right to privacy therein.

I don't mind the fact that the author of this short used their words to denigrate this obvious idiot, but using abortion, and using the argument for/against it improperly kinda bugs me. Privacy rights are being tossed out with the rest of The Bill of Rights (except for the 2nd Amendment - THANK YOU NRA!! <-that was written with complete sincerity, by the way), and abortion rights are the next one that's gonna get tossed.

I don't know if women have too many rights, or if anyone does, but they're about to have one fewer, so everyone better get their wire coat hangers out to prepare for this eventually.
Posted by malcolmxy

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

J.R. — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 11:14:33 -0700

@27: Very well stated. Sorry, Hover Dog, there isn't really anything to talk about.
Posted by J.R.

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

Amanda — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 09:54:20 -0700

I'm pro-choice, but I feel like I understand the perspective of some pro-life people and find it difficult to discount some of their arguments. I agree with Hover Dog that the "if you don't like it, don't do it (and don't pay attention to those who do)" argument doesn't make sense in the context of an abortion debate the way it does in a discussion of, say, gay marriage, which doesn't have to affect anyone other than the two people agreeing to get married. From a pro-life perspective, the unborn child is being adversely affected by having its supposed right-to-life ignored, so suggesting that anyone who "doesn't like" our failure to recognize the baby's rights should just stop paying attention to what's happening really doesn't address the problem.

Unlike Cienna Madrid, I wouldn't say I'm "loudly and proudly" pro-choice, since I realize that my pro-choice stance is arrived at from a place of emotion, not logic -- just like many pro-life stances. I strongly feel that a woman should have a right to choose whether or not she carries a pregnancy to term. Pro-life people strongly feel that the baby has a right to exist, to have a chance at life. None of us actually knows when life begins and what's most moral, we're all just going by our gut feelings.
Posted by Amanda

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

Biology 101 — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 09:40:27 -0700

1. Conception creates a new member of the Human race.

2. Abortion kills a living human.
Posted by Biology 101

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

Hell is waiting for you — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 09:33:16 -0700

10

ooooh.
that's scary.
and Hitler even murdered,
like,
6 million people in the camps from 1939-45.
a million a year.
horrifying.....

what kind of monstrous society would MURDER a MILLION innocent souls every year.....
Posted by Hell is waiting for you

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

venomlash — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 01:50:15 -0700

@8: The most telling thing is that the anti-choice movement, virtually without exception, opposes easy availability of contraception and comprehensive sex ed. If they really wanted to stop abortions from happening, they'd try reducing the demand for them. A few groups opposing abortion on moral grounds have wised up and thrown their weight behind sex ed programs rather than aggressive legislation against abortion.
Posted by venomlash

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 20:31:35 -0700

HooverDog, you start w/ a flawed premise, "debates about abortion rights have devolved to the point where neither side even hears the other's message." Your speculation from there reaches into absurdity.

Those who are Pro-Choice do not believe there is any moral or ethical debate required. The life of the mother takes precedence over the life of the fetus is every & all cases. End of story.

The problem issues from the basic moral stance of each side. The Pro-Choice stance starts w/ the assumption that each person has the right to make choices about their personal lives. The Anti-Abortion crowd (who have never been "Pro-Life,") begin w/ the assumption that personal choices must answer to an outside authority. They are diametrically opposed stances, and will never be reconciled. The place where they will be decided is in the legal code. The Western legal system, and specifically the American, are based on the assumptions of personal liberty, ie. the Pro-Choice stance. The Anti-Abortion folks have subverted that code, using the power behind their stance, the power of the collective. The history of abortion is the story of forcing legally the basic tenets of the American justice system onto an organized group that is opposed to it.

The Anti-Abortion crowd will never 'understand' the Pro-Choice, because they'd have to admit that their stance is thoroughly un-American. The Pro-Choice crowd understands all too well where the opposition is coming from.
Posted by Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

smade — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 20:21:00 -0700

The complete lack of nuance on the pro-choice side sounds just like the complete lack of nuance of the pro-gun crowd. Any mitigation of rights, however slight, no matter how reasonably argued, is the first step on the slippery slope and must be shouted down at maximum volume and with extreme prejudice.

I vote pro-choice right down the line and am appalled at the anti-women tenor of this election cycle, but I do expect people on both sides to favor intellectual honesty over ideological purity.
Posted by smade

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

Brooklyn Reader — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 20:18:47 -0700

How the fuck did we ever let the religious right get away with perverting the language of the debate with phrases like "right to life" and "life begins at conception."

Hell, life began with bacteria and amoebas.

When to celebrate bringing a new human life into the world is a cultural construct. While we in the pre-neofucktard western world generally went with that first cry after the airways of the newborn were clear, other cultures were a little more reticent to make an emotional commitment right away. Why? Because of both superstition and the fact that some newborns aren't strong enough, or lucky enough, to survive. So, in some cultures, it's 30 days after the birth. In others, the first Lunar New Year. In another, a full year. If the kid survives the first year, he's likely to stick around, you see?

If you compromise between science and religious fanaticism, you get religious fanaticism.
Posted by Brooklyn Reader

Re: Do Women Have Too Many Rights?

floater — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 19:34:30 -0700

Like @18 said, abortions will always be performed, whether we approve of them or not. They happened before Roe vs. Wade and they will continue to happen as long as women are desperate not to carry the pregnancy through, for whatever reason. (And these are not light, arbitrary decisions. I don't think anybody enjoys going out and getting an abortion.). So either the procedure will be legal, accessible, and safe, performed by highly trained professionals who know how to care for the patient, or it will be performed under suspect quality control, highly expensive, possibly very medically risky, and done under the pressure of the shadow of illegality. Or maybe the desperate mother will "abort" the fetus into a garbage can after he/she is born, or we can go back to the days of squalid group homes where mothers deposit their newborns in designated spots outside the building. I'm waiting for the first story out of Kansas where a woman nearly dies in an ER after a botched improvised abortion because a professional procedure wasn't available.

And all this pretense of caring for the fetus's - sorry, baby's life? Sure, as long as it's in the womb. But as far as helping that newborn thrive into a healthy member of society or avoid being conceived in the first place? Forget it. That's why I call shenanigans on pro-lifers, because they're full of crap.
Posted by floater