http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/02/04/more_details_on_this_morning_s Comments On: More Details On This Morning's Bike Accident by Jonah Spangenthal-Lee en-us Copyright 2009 The Stranger. All rights reserved. This RSS file is offered to individuals, The Stranger readers, and non-commercial organizations only. Any commercial websites wishing to use this RSS file, please contact The Stranger. webmaster@thestranger.com (The Stranger Webmaster) Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:00:01 -0800 Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:15:00 -0800 Foundation http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss
I wish I had never looked to this blog for a reaction -
The indifference shown by some drivers is a sickening insult to humanity.
Just look at:

#34: a driver who thinks that cyclists being killed is something positive if it makes his commute easier;

or

#32: someone who is more concerned about the paintwork on the van than the cyclist's death.

If either of these people are ever involved in an auto accident, I hope they get sued, and in the discovery process these comments are found and attributed to them.
It would be interesting to see them have to explain their views in that context.

Posted by No_more_indifference]]> Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:15:07 -0800 The Stranger
About the supposed 35 mph: That's a wild guess by a person with no known competence. Don't base your argument on it.

It's possible the bicyclist did something wrong, but riding downhill fairly fast (25 mph sounds more likely) is not illegal, and is usually quite safe, especially if other drivers are competent. Taking evasive action to avoid a random move by a van is also not illegal.

A U-turn when it hurts someone else is illegal, or damned well should be. And by the way "I didn't see him" is an admission of incompetence and negligence, not an excuse.
Posted by Robert t.]]> Sat, 07 Feb 2009 18:40:16 -0800 The Stranger cars = 4 wheels; 4 braking systems; larger surface area of rubber touching pavement; stronger steering, suspension and chassis to handle twists and recoveries; airbags and crumple zones; windshields; 3 mirrors; speedometer and a design that enables safe steering, braking and travel at speeds of 70mph or more, by design. (though faster speeds are of course possible)

bike = none of the above safety or physics advantages; balanced on 2 wheels with wind in your ears, eyes and nose; and a design that relies 90-95% on the user expertly handling the machine with full & constant attentiveness - and can only safely steer, brake and travel at speeds up to around 15-20mph. (though faster speeds are of course possible)

Though you can be in denial, the fact remains roads were built & designed for cars, back when bikes were thought of as novelties/toys. Motorcycles, Skateboards and Bikes are guests on the 4wheelers' path and must play constant vigilant defense. The only consolation is cars and motors of any kind aren't allowed on the BG trail; and cars can't lane split in bad traffic.

#3- by this logic flocks of geese should be killed because of the plane that went down in the hudson or ; bicyclists should get jail time if they knockout someone's car door they run into (property damage)?
It's an accident. This has nothing about it that suggests vehicular manslaughter. There were 2 'victims'.

#1 agreed. It's so easy to lose humanity through the 1 and 0's; lot of insecure MFs out there.

#4 ha - you should see it here when the police shoot someone.
Posted by BikerDriverMotorcyclistHybrid]]> Sat, 07 Feb 2009 06:26:38 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Ballard Guy]]> Fri, 06 Feb 2009 07:45:55 -0800 The Stranger
some notes:

1. openly applauding the death of a cyclist is sick. absolutely horrifying.

2. if 35 is too fast on a bike, shouldn't it be too fast in a car?

3. gosh, i wonder if the driver will get a ticket? for an unsafe uturn or something? i mean, it's pretty hard to get in trouble for killing people with your car.

4. it sure is easy to pin the blame on someone who is dead, isn't it?


anyways, i will continue to ride my bike every day. please, please, please, do not kill me motorists -- i do everything in my power to ride safe, just keep an eye out or something? act like you are operating deadly equipment or something? i had three close calls this afternoon.



Posted by doug]]> Thu, 05 Feb 2009 16:19:21 -0800 The Stranger Posted by nipper]]> Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:47:31 -0800 The Stranger
The rider left a wife and two kids.
Posted by Brad]]> Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:31:39 -0800 The Stranger But no pity for/understanding of 35 MPH, if that was truly the speed, on a Seattle street, in the haven't-yet-had-2nd-pot-of-coffee-yet commute no less: You gotta be an invincible teenager to think that speed is safe/sane/okay (outside of cycling down I-90). That's race speed, not commute speed: it's similar (penalties to reaction time, turning, braking etc) to cars going 55 on ballard streets. This sad case illustrates.
And *yawn* ; Road laws don't need change. Safety attitudes, helmet laws, training perhaps,... but the laws are pretty damn fair right now. And U turns are fine as long you aren't a. crossing a double yellow of 18 inches or b. in a no Uturn zone or c. on a one-way, as my mind recalls.
Posted by Reverend]]> Thu, 05 Feb 2009 01:35:58 -0800 The Stranger Posted by bcrefugee]]> Thu, 05 Feb 2009 00:15:32 -0800 The Stranger
What a bunch of tools on this forum.
Posted by mtbiker]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:31:13 -0800 The Stranger
Posted by elbow]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:30:08 -0800 The Stranger Posted by infrequent]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:21:37 -0800 The Stranger
This does sound like something I do regularly as a more assertive bicycle commuter. I agree that this combination of actions may have truly just been an accident.
Posted by highfives]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:06:02 -0800 The Stranger Posted by ric]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:37:43 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Ballard Guy]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:19:10 -0800 The Stranger

"I was there. I was coming down 24th and he came from my left, out of the neighborhood and into the center lane next to the car in front of me. As that car passed he swerved in front of me, to the bike lane and picked up speed for the hill. I dont know how fast I was going, but I am usually about 5 over down that hill and he was passing the cars in front of me. He was moving. As he approached the red light at 65th, I noticed that he really wasnt slowing down and I guessed that he was anticipating the light. When the light turned green he was passing cars in the bike lane and the van pulled away from the curb where the bus stop is. He swung wide to the left to go around the van. I think he thought the van was just pulling out into traffic, but when he realized the van was making a u-turn, he laid the bike down and slid under the van.
I was third on the scene and thank God for the guy in front of me, the fireman. He and the grocery clerk started CPR after we pulled the bicyclist out from under the van. It was horrible.
I dont know if the u-turn was legal, but that guy was cookin down that hill. I am sure that the the woman in the van checked her mirrors, but he snuck up on her. I can say for certain that he was not practicing the rules of the road. I believe in ‘Share the Road’, but that means the drivers AND the bicyclists!

My heart goes out to both involved, and their families. And again, thanks to the fireman, the grocery clerk and the woman in the white Mazda."
Posted by Homegirl]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:08:03 -0800 The Stranger Posted by formanoreasta]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:45:11 -0800 The Stranger "This is all pure speculation, but seeing the light turn green, the driver — who was indeed south of the intersection — might have hurried to make the u-turn thinking there was time since the southbound traffic was only just starting to move. Problem was, the bike came across 65th a lot faster than the cars.

I cannot square this with ric's original comment. Were the two vehicles headed in the same direction (before the van began his U turn) or not?

Posted by driver ed]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:32:20 -0800 The Stranger Posted by very sad]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:03:11 -0800 The Stranger
I made a more thorough comment over on myballard, and I'll paste it here:


"I haven’t posted since the this morning, so I want to observe a few things upon reflection.

"The most important thing is to keep in mind the people involved, as they are both victims. Something like this has a ripple effect through the community to which we should all be senstive and respectful. Lives were changed forever today.

"Beyond that, there is no question a convergence of circumstances led to this. It was not one thing, or one person, it was a series of things that happened tragically all at once.

"I have no doubt the configuration of the intersection played a role. Coming down the hill, the light was red. The cyclist was in the travel lane. Approaching the intersection as vehilce traffic slowed & stopped, he moved right, into the bike lane. He just happened to near the intersection as the light switched to green, so he carried a lot of momentum through the intersection, while being on the far right side where the van would have had a hard time spotting him.

"This is all pure speculation, but seeing the light turn green, the driver — who was indeed south of the intersection — might have hurried to make the u-turn thinking there was time since the southbound traffic was only just starting to move. Problem was, the bike came across 65th a lot faster than the cars.

"The guy was clearly an experienced cyclist. He made the turn onto 24th from 85th, checked traffic, and moved over into the bike lane between there and 80th. We were in tandem all the way down 24th, with him getting into the travel lane behind me when his speed down the hill matched vehicle speeds. I bike this hill a lot and would have done the same thing myself, in fact have many times.

"No one could have foreseen the combination of things - bike, signal change, u-turn, etc. - all happening within a split second of each other.

"Please accept these observations as contributions to the community’s understanding of what happened, and respect that I’m trying to piece things together between what I actually saw and what I’m inferring. I didn’t actually see the u-turn, so there are some important missing pieces in my visual sequence. This is truly awful, and I hope that we can pull together on behalf of the victims and community to see if there are any rational lessons to draw from this, and if not, a least draw some understanding."

Posted by slog tipper ric]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:30:11 -0800 The Stranger Posted by Shannon]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:24:16 -0800 The Stranger
No one can see it coming. Behind his laid-back & easy smile, Kevin hides a heart of steel. A proud dad of two future racers, Megan (12) and Emily (9), he cranks out 150 mile weeks commuting with his girls to school, then to work, training during lunch, plus racing on weekends. No wonder it wasn’t a big deal to ride all the way to California just to attend his 20th high school reunion. He just jumped on his bike and headed down Hwy 101…7 days and 1000 miles later he was ready to party.With his bike handling skills, communication ability and great endurance, Kevin is your “must have” teammate on the road. While his favorite race is the criterium, Kevin loves riding fat tires too. Yes, suspension or no, he’s ready to go. When not riding, he is a biochemistry researcher at UW. Who can imagine Kevin wearing a white coat?
Posted by sad]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:08:43 -0800 The Stranger What if the van did have on a left turn signal? Is the biker at fault?

At fault? For passing a van signalling a left turn on the left. Probably. But then the question becomes: Why would the cyclist pick this form of suicide?

It's far more likely that the cyclist was trying to avoid what he thought was a van pulling over to park.
Posted by Drivers, use your turn signals. We're not mind readers.]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 17:54:39 -0800 The Stranger Posted by despairyeliving]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 17:22:35 -0800 The Stranger
According to the Seattle Municipal Code:

SMC 11.55.120

U turns -- Restrictions.

No person shall make a U turn unless such movement can be made in safety and without interfering with other traffic. No person shall make a U turn on any curve, or on the approach to or near the crest of a grade, unless the vehicle can be seen by the drivers of all other vehicles approaching from both directions within five hundred (500) feet. (RCW 46.61.295)
Posted by hohoho green giant]]> Wed, 04 Feb 2009 17:03:41 -0800 The Stranger