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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Just STFU about it.
Actually, I take it as a sign that TUTTUT is sincere.
http://www.todby.com/2016/06/tony-blair-…
He left town so you could do what you just did.
Don't be surprised if you get a similar invitation in a couple of years, and again, he's out of town the whole time.
And then you wrote an email to Dan, which was more effective at spreading the news than shouting it from the rooftop.
There are far too many details in your letter, LW. If her BF sees it, he will most likely figure it out.
EricaP @10: If that were the case, why didn't the girlfriend tell him she had his blessing? Nope. Absent boyfriend thinks these guys are a monogamous gay couple, and therefore safe to leave alone with his girlfriend.
Adam @13: Because everyone on the whole continent of Europe reads a Seattle-based sex advice columnist, who is too stupid to realise that hey, maybe he should change some details in cases where LWs could be recognised by the people they've just wronged (for instance, his being from Europe?). You think the number of partnered women in the entire world who have invited gay(-appearing) friends to stay with them is "one"?
TUTTUT: A bad person would do a thing like this and feel zero guilt, so that's proof positive you're not a bad person. You've cheated, and you've already figured out your punishment is having to take the secret to your graves. Try to focus on the fun you had, and commit to avoiding that sort of situation in future, and that's about all you can do.
Here's another tip: Instead of looking at this as doing your friend a favor, look at it as helping her make a bad choice. She chose a single night of fantastically hot sex with a consequence of lifelong guilt and hiding from her fiance/husband. If she wanted a less messy way of crossing that threesome off her bucket list, she might have made her boyfriend part of it, or she might marry someone who would be okay with her having a threesome with 2 old friends. Instead, she chose the CPOS route. Note that I hold her more responsible for doing something wrong than TUTTUT. TUTTUT didn't break any promises or betray his fiance. She did.
Considering that they all had a discussion and the girlfriend stated that he wouldn't be cool with it, no.
They could've said no, but they both plowed ahead anyway. A fundamental dishonesty sure counts as a betrayal to me.
A case can be made that LW/BF cheated Fiance, I suppose, though otherwise I don't know why you wrote, "You've cheated," to LW. Perhaps this situation makes a case against social monogamy.
@7: Thankfully, this is a lot easier to figure out how it happened ;)
There is literally no mention of the US anywhere in the letter.
[Take comfort in the thought that Mr. Monogamy could be out there sowing a few wild oats of his own—maybe he's got a bucket list too—and resolve to keep your mouths shut.]
A bit of a reach? This seems to go beyond even telling supporters of Mr Sanders to feel happy about voting for Mrs Clinton because Mr Trump is so much worse. But it's pretty sad for the world if more cheating makes things better. I'll promote this to LMB.
[Whatever you do, TUTTUT, don't compound the largely hypothetical harm you've already done to your male friend (what he doesn't know can't hurt him) by unburdening yourself to him or anyone else because that could do actual harm (what he does know could hurt him—and her).]
(I think I'd invent an emergency to avoid attending the wedding; they can do that much for Fiance.) Gee, I wonder if some part of the reason that there's such an exaggerated sense of Men's being Dogs and Pigs while Women so so so definitely Aren't is that there is so much White Knighting to preserve women's reputations. I'll grant there's (at least some; it's difficult to determine how much) truth in the concern, which means that there isn't an easy fix, but we can't say this is exclusively one-way traffic (recalling Mrs Osbourne's favourite castratrix, whom I really only mention just to get to write "castratrix").
But, to give the counterpoint to that bit of Don't Tell, what Fiance could come to know could come back to hurt LW/BF as well. If they were all completely drunk, a revelation could lead Hostess or Fiance to play the Consent card. Even Mr Savage drops a hint (with admirably skillful delicacy) of being willing to believe it - [...and now, with your help and the help of both your dicks, she's done that thing... or she had it done to her...] {my italics}.
I'm inclined to like "visa-versa" and "Our girlfriend" from the letter enough to avoid expressing a wish to hear what transpired after It happened again, and therefore dismiss the cosmic vibrations that might lead me to think it did.
A friend once remarked that he was grateful for his sexual adventures because he could enjoy look back on them, and would certainly do so when he was old and his days of adventure were behind him. That thought leads me to TUTTUT's friend, who it seems may have facilitated this threesome so as to experience something she had fantasized about before marriage to a monogamous man foreclosed that possibility. Having experienced a threesome in a deceitful manner is this really going to be a hot memory that you're going to be able to savor in the years ahead, knowing that you cheated your fiancee? If you can look back on cheating fondly, that seems rather telling about you, and if the answer is no, than why cheat in the first place?
Unless the LW and his partner can 100% rely on his friend to never 'fess-up to the deed to her fiancé, they should probably just send a fabulous wedding gift (as @3 recommends), find a plausible reason not to go to the wedding, and not go to it (as @27 recommends).
The combination of the "this would be a bad idea", getting drunk as an excuse to go through with it, pretending he didn't know how it happened, then saying it was hot and that he wants it to happen again...
He needs to fess up or drop out and stop hanging out with her. He hasn't really grasped his free will in the active decision, and he will again play dumb as he moves to make it happen again.
Not that I'm pretending that she had nothing to do with it, but she didn't write in.
Nothing he says here indicates that he really cares about what happens so much as how he might be perceived. Not that it matters, because being seen as a "bad person" doesn't affect that he thinks it was hot (which I'm sure it was) and he sees zero issues or weirdness with being around her again.
C'moooooon, worry more about doing good things than how people see you. Playing dumb doesn't make you seem better, just more deceitful.
It never ceases to amaze me the lame excuses people make for their own lack of self-control. "I had a feeling and I had no choice but to let it take over my life!" Self-control is the difference between adults and children - you don't shit where you eat. The fiancée is going to carry this guilty secret for years (her fling wasn't with two random backpackers passing through town, it was with mutual friends). Sounds like fun.
That "We can't be doing this! Let's all state how much we don't want to do this [drinks and engineers the situation until 'this' happens]" scenario would be hilarious and soap-opera dramatic if it wasn't so commonplace.
No, but the number of partnered women, whose partners are out of town, that have invited old friends (that happen to be bi, but may be 'gay appearing') to stay while they are in town (which is right now according to the LW) is probably fairly low.
Hopefully Dan changed enough information that LW's friend wont find out because of this letter, but that isn't the point. The LW swore to never tell anyone about this, and he did.
Also, I think Dan is a bit more popular than you think. Dan may live in Seattle, but people from all over the world read Savage Love. It is in print syndication across the country, and is available via Internet worldwide. I can pick up a local paper that runs Savage Love at the corner store, and I live over 2000 miles from Seattle. You can read the LOTD via the Savage Love app.
tl;dr. The LW already broke his promise to never tell, and Dan is very popular.
BTW, I know we all try to respond to the letter as if it were real because it might be, but didn't this one sound pretty fake in a Penthouse Forum kinda way?
Then again, they were an unreliable narrator so perhaps you're still correct.
Because cuckolds (the kind who enjoy it) often don't want to be outed to their friends as such.
TUTTUT is from Europe, a detail which could have been changed. They have been "abroad" for a while. "Abroad," if you are from Europe, could mean America, it could mean South America, it could mean Australia, it could mean a different European country than the one they live in. They are "back home for a few weeks," "home" obviously being Europe if that is where TUTTUT is from. During this time they are staying with the girl, at "home," ie their home country, before heading "abroad" again, ie anywhere in the world besides their own country.
OK, usually you say things that make sense, but this makes no sense whatsoever. This girl is torturing her friends' consciences by pretending she didn't have permission to sleep with them when she really did? She really thinks two homoflexible guys who like threesomes will negatively judge a straight guy for not being strictly monogamous? No, that makes zero sense, sorry.
The couple is ALREADY TALKING ABOUT HER (with Dan and likely others) AS A CHEAT. How is that any better than taking about their arrangement in a positive sense?
Nope, not at all. Nowhere near enough detail. These things do happen in other people's lives, take my word on it.
And you know what? You *should* . . .
@49: They can do whatever they want, but all the "But I'm a 'good person'! This is wrong! I'll never do it again! I would never hurt a friend! [makes plans to do it again]" posturing is tiresome from the outside.
All the parties need to be honest, talk to the fiancé and get over themselves if this is going to be such a regular thing.
Everyone--*everyone*--has secrets. Secret deeds, secret thoughts, secret fantasies This worshipping that goes on here at the altar of Full Honesty and Disclosure, Always And About Everything is at best hypocritical. Sometimes, secrets can benefit their keepers, without harming others…
A one-time getting carried away is one thing. Active plans to carry on an ongoing affair are quite another. It's basically the difference between being human and being evil.
No more sniffing their own farts with flowery proclamations stated for an invisible audience and that they have no intention of keeping. Don't be a shithead. Learn to communicate like grown adults, not giggling, teenaged, drama-seeking missiles.
I feel terrible for the boyfriend that all three of the people in this letter took advantage of. He opened his home to his friends, and they & his girlfriend went behind his back and violated his trust.
Dan seems to go with the whole "if a tree falls in the woods, but nobody hears it, it doesn't matter if it fell or not" rationale...but is there no such thing as an intrinsic evil?
If I was the bf, I would want to be told what happened by my girlfriend so that I could make the decision whether or not to stay in the relationship.
I believe there is an intrinsic value in being honest about things that would matter to your significant other, while Dan seems to hold a much more instrumental view of it.
Suppose Mr. Monogamist wouldn't tolerate masturbation, by girlfriend or house guests, and it would be a relationship-ender with anyone he learned practiced that? They all have to give up masturbation, or be EVIL?? Why isn't wanking in secret an option? Let him have his restrictive beliefs, who is hurt by the secret wank?
Or suppose Mr. Monogamist is a militant vegan and--à la Morrissey--insists meat eaters not darken his door. Suppose girlfriend and friends live a mostly vegan lifestyle, but every so often enjoy a secret burger. They are EVIL?
And bear in mind, girlfriend and male couple are only pursuing sexual pleasures. Her sexual pleasures with the couple are momentary, they won't continue to exist when she and Mr. Monogamist are together again. They need not interfere with their shared intimacies. It's not like girlfriend and couple are all secretly in love now, with emotional bonds that endure and exist even when girlfriend and fiancé are alone, betraying the fiancé's belief that he is girlfriend's beloved, and she his, that they are each other's emotional one and only.
The real question is why girlfriend wants to tie herself in marriage to someone whose sexual values are so different from hers. But that's a different question; apparently she does. But, it's funny how Mr. Savage is okay with secretly-enjoyed sex by someone who goes through misery of being pleasure-deprived by asshole spouse, but denies that pleasure to someone who isn't eager to suffer all that misery first. And to jump to EVIL! It's a sex-negative, slut-shaming judgment. So sanctimonious.
DTMFA.
Your post is too ridiculous on every level to reply to. But thanks for the laugh.
@58: Jokeshamer!
Seeing as she's actively working to sabotage the marriage, I don't think she's going to tie herself to him, or if she shrugs and lets it happen anyway, it isn't long for this world.
Do you even see how riddled with value judgments your views are? And believing that your own value judgments are the only valid ones is the definition of pious sanctimony.
Simply pathetic.
Here you discuss a woman who was not allowed to masturbate, sanctimony, and some fantasy persons calling the LW evil.
None of which has occurred!
I hope this unhinged discussion with yourself has met provided your own personal masturbatory fodder for the day.
You win the argument! And I'm out.
I know Dan is loosey goosey on monogamy over the long haul but if they're still just dating it doesn't seem forgiveable. Poor boyfriend, he's dating a creep and probably won't find out until much more damage has been done.
BDF @15: TUTTUT: A bad person would do a thing like this and feel zero guilt, so that's proof positive you're not a bad person.
Still chuckling at me being called sex-negative and slut-shaming. Ahahahaha. Ever heard of the phrase "ethical slut"? It's a concept you might want to investigate.
If you are not into monogamy, you shouldn't commit to a monogamous relationship. Simples.
If you commit to a monogamous relationship and then go around fucking whoever you want to anyway, you're a lying CPOS.
Why is that concept difficult for you to grasp?
The three of them can get together and laugh at him behind his back when they travel over for the wedding.
I am well familiar with the book The Ethical Slut. Since you believe it to be a "phrase," I take it you are not.
We know that she insisted the LW lie. Nobody nice would ask anyone else to lie for them. As @Idreamofhorses said in another thread, monogamy is overrated but honesty is not.
BiDanFan and I are both ethically nonmonogamous women, by the way.
There's way too much judgment and unfounded accusations being hurled this woman's way.
You say that like you think it's a mitigating factor. It isn't.
Not only did she cheat on her fiance with you two in order to do this thing she's been pining after, now that she's had her cake, she intends to wall off all the hotness from the man she's marrying. What a nice way to (de-)prioritize the person whose sexuality she supposedly is binding to her and noone else for the rest of his natural life. By getting her rocks off clandestinely, and then putting that possibility up on the shelf, out of reach, for the rest of time. What a piece of shit she is. I truly hope Fiance reads Dan and recognizes his situation.
AT VERY LEAST she does not get to check "threesome" off her bucket list just yet, because now she owes Fiance one, with the hot girl of his choice, and maybe, if she's lucky, herself as Particpant #3. If she's not lucky, she gets to wait at home while he goes out and fulfills his fantasy with two other women, neither of them her, just like she did to him.
What more evidence do you want that girlfriend is committing to monogamy. I doubt that will last. The first betrayal is hard, it will become easier with each subsequent betrayal.
@86 I'm not being judgmental, just sadly observing human nature through the prism of hard won experience. I hate cliches, but "once a liar always a liar, once cheater always a cheater". Better the fiance finds out now and ends his relationships with these three people. He is operating under illusions about who these people are. It won't be just one lie, one deception; everything going forward will be a continuing lie and deception. When he finds out he is going to hate these people.