Saturday, April 28, 2012
Media / Religion Savage's Great New Shitstorm
Posted by David Schmader on Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 1:22 PM
A couple weeks ago, Dan Savage delivered a keynote address at the National High School Journalism Convention, during which he spoke some true (if expletive-ridden) words about what the Bible has gotten wrong throughout history. Now this is a top headline on the Drudge Report: "Anti-Bullying Speaker Curses Christian Teens."
Here's video of what Dan said (which led numerous Christian students to flee the auditorium).
And here's another hysterical report on the brouhaha, from the AFA-affiliated CitizenLink.
Whee!
148
I hope those kids don't think they can be journalists if they are unwilling to listen to a different point of view!
147
wtf? what is new about this? dan savage being dan savage? what's the surprise? basically the news story in st was "savage insults teen christians". well boo fucking hoo. how is this news???
anyway, way to be dan. it is bullshit and a few dbag teen xians can suck it along with the conservative st
anyway, way to be dan. it is bullshit and a few dbag teen xians can suck it along with the conservative st
145
Dan nailed it; that video was fantastic. The Christians couldn't take the heat, so they got out of the kitchen. Doing so was not cowardly (or pansy-assed), it's just weak. People with strong characters don't flee, they stay and defend.
Also, and maybe others have said this, I haven't read the comments, but I'd love to know what Christians were doing there in the first place, if not to defend their beliefs? It's OK for them to hear about butt-fucking and whatnot, but they leave as soon as the Bible is uttered and questioned?
Also, and maybe others have said this, I haven't read the comments, but I'd love to know what Christians were doing there in the first place, if not to defend their beliefs? It's OK for them to hear about butt-fucking and whatnot, but they leave as soon as the Bible is uttered and questioned?
144
I reviewed Dan's speech. Provocative, colorful, and not outside language I have heard from former Secretary of State, Madeline Albright, George W. Bush, among other prominent Americans. Me thinks that those who protested his remarks protest too much. But, it is a useful reminder that free speech is not free and needs to be defended every day.
Kudos to Dan,
RMD, J.D.
San Diego, California
Kudos to Dan,
RMD, J.D.
San Diego, California
143
I reviewed Dan's speech. Provocative, colorful, and not outside language I have heard from former Secretary of State, Madeline Albright, George W. Bush, among other prominent Americans. Me thinks that those who protested his remarks protest too much. But, it is a useful reminder that free speech is not free and needs to be defended every day.
Kudos to Dan,
RMD, J.D.
San Diego, California
Kudos to Dan,
RMD, J.D.
San Diego, California
142
Well, after having actually read it (thanks to moosefan !), I find Dan's speech totally right. A book is a book, not a physical law. However old it is, it's still only a book.
"Pansy-assed" is a bit strong, even for high schoolers on a dick move, though I'm sure they would employ stronger words themselves - but Dan did apologize for it. But "bullshit" is totally apropriate in that context.
"Pansy-assed" is a bit strong, even for high schoolers on a dick move, though I'm sure they would employ stronger words themselves - but Dan did apologize for it. But "bullshit" is totally apropriate in that context.
139
It must be a difficult line to walk for Dan. Too gentle and you aren't standing up for your beliefs in the interest of getting along. Too assertive you'll never change anyone's mind because they'll get turned off before they can listen.
138
Whenever I try to imagine a face behind any of Seattleblues' comments, all I can picture is a poopy diaper.
137
oh no....
all the fanboys giving Danny the high five for his crude rudeness and then he goes and apologizes.
sort of a big ol' FUCK YOU to the fan base....
all the fanboys giving Danny the high five for his crude rudeness and then he goes and apologizes.
sort of a big ol' FUCK YOU to the fan base....
136
@127, "The Bible, we'll just talk about the Bible for a second. Uh, people often point out that they can't help it. They can't help with the anti-gay bullying because it says right there in Leviticus, it says right there in Timothy, it says right there in Romans, that being gay is wrong. We can learn to ignore the bullshit in the Bible about gay people. The same way, the same way we have learned to ignore the bullshit in the Bible about shellfish, about slavery, about dinner, about farming, about menstruation, about virginity, about masturbation.
We ignore bullshit in the Bible about all sorts of things. The Bible is a radically pro-slavery document. Slave owners waved Bibles over their heads during the Civil War and justified it. The shortest book in the New Testament, is a letter from Paul to a Christian slave owner about owning his Christian slaves. And Paul doesn't say, 'Christians don't own people'. Paul talks about how Christians own people. We ignore what the Bible says about slavery because the Bible got slavery wrong.
Tim - uh - Sam Harris, in Letter to a Christian Nation, points out that the Bible got the easiest moral question that humanity has ever faced wrong; slavery. What are the odds that the Bible got something as complicated as human sexuality wrong? One hundred percent.
The Bible says that if your daughter is not a virgin on her wedding night; if a woman isn't a virgin, she shall be dragged to her father's doorstep and stoned to death. Callista Gingrich lives. And there is no effort, there is no effort to amend state constitutions to make it legal to stone women to death on their wedding night, if they're not virgins. At least not yet. We don't know where the GOP is going these days.
People are dying because people can't clear this one last hurdle. They can't get past this one last thing in the Bible about homosexuality.
Um, one other thing I want to talk about is ... Heh, so you can tell the 'Bible-guys' in the hall they can come back now cause I'm done beating up the Bible. It's funny, if someone who's on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the Bible, how pansy-assed some people react when you push back. So I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings. But; I have a right to defend myself. And to point out the hypocrisy of people who justify anti-gay bigotry by pointing to the Bible and insisting we must live by the code of Leviticus on this one issue and no other."
More...
We ignore bullshit in the Bible about all sorts of things. The Bible is a radically pro-slavery document. Slave owners waved Bibles over their heads during the Civil War and justified it. The shortest book in the New Testament, is a letter from Paul to a Christian slave owner about owning his Christian slaves. And Paul doesn't say, 'Christians don't own people'. Paul talks about how Christians own people. We ignore what the Bible says about slavery because the Bible got slavery wrong.
Tim - uh - Sam Harris, in Letter to a Christian Nation, points out that the Bible got the easiest moral question that humanity has ever faced wrong; slavery. What are the odds that the Bible got something as complicated as human sexuality wrong? One hundred percent.
The Bible says that if your daughter is not a virgin on her wedding night; if a woman isn't a virgin, she shall be dragged to her father's doorstep and stoned to death. Callista Gingrich lives. And there is no effort, there is no effort to amend state constitutions to make it legal to stone women to death on their wedding night, if they're not virgins. At least not yet. We don't know where the GOP is going these days.
People are dying because people can't clear this one last hurdle. They can't get past this one last thing in the Bible about homosexuality.
Um, one other thing I want to talk about is ... Heh, so you can tell the 'Bible-guys' in the hall they can come back now cause I'm done beating up the Bible. It's funny, if someone who's on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the Bible, how pansy-assed some people react when you push back. So I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings. But; I have a right to defend myself. And to point out the hypocrisy of people who justify anti-gay bigotry by pointing to the Bible and insisting we must live by the code of Leviticus on this one issue and no other."
135
I think Dan's point, whether intentional or not, is simply to not coddle the Christians, who have attempted to establish a sort of special dispensation for their particular brand of hatred and bigotry by hiding behind the canard of "religious intolerance", whereby ANY criticism of their actions, their beliefs, and their selective adherence to mere handful of their god's multitudinous commandments (typically, the ones having specifically to do with OTHER PEOPLE'S actions and behaviors, as opposed to their own) is automatically labeled as a vehement attack on their entire belief system.
While the sort of "Christians" we're talking about here vilify and denounce the "sinful choices" of those who do not follow their narrow set of beliefs (often in the most hateful terms imaginable), they simultaneously demand that their opponents - and most especially the objects of their vitriol - have no right to counter-criticize these same utterances, because to do so somehow impinges on what they view as their God-demanded duty to utter them in the first place!
It's a form of circular logic born out of nothing more than fear: they are so abjectly afraid of anyone who acts and thinks even slightly differently from the "norm" they have established, that they seem to feel compelled to attack these "others" on an almost primal basis; as if the oldest reptilian parts of their brains simply cannot function at a level higher than "MY TRIBE = GOOD, ALL OTHER TRIBES = EVIL", which causes them to respond to even the most benign criticism of just a single individual (or no individual at all) as if the entire group had been attacked in the most violent and brutal manner conceivable.
Must be a real bitch living in a constant state of "fight, flight or fright" 24/7/360...
More...
While the sort of "Christians" we're talking about here vilify and denounce the "sinful choices" of those who do not follow their narrow set of beliefs (often in the most hateful terms imaginable), they simultaneously demand that their opponents - and most especially the objects of their vitriol - have no right to counter-criticize these same utterances, because to do so somehow impinges on what they view as their God-demanded duty to utter them in the first place!
It's a form of circular logic born out of nothing more than fear: they are so abjectly afraid of anyone who acts and thinks even slightly differently from the "norm" they have established, that they seem to feel compelled to attack these "others" on an almost primal basis; as if the oldest reptilian parts of their brains simply cannot function at a level higher than "MY TRIBE = GOOD, ALL OTHER TRIBES = EVIL", which causes them to respond to even the most benign criticism of just a single individual (or no individual at all) as if the entire group had been attacked in the most violent and brutal manner conceivable.
Must be a real bitch living in a constant state of "fight, flight or fright" 24/7/360...
134
Somebody needs to get in the Christianist bigots' faces and shout about their hypocrisy. Thanks for stepping up, Dan Savage, my hero!
133
The first opening seconds remind me of the 1984 Apple Macintosh commercial.
I think I caught a girl walking out almost in tears.
I think I caught a girl walking out almost in tears.
132
I enjoy Dan's use of profanity and no holds barred style, but in this situation it seems like maybe he should have toned it down a little for the kiddies. A middle aged asshole like Tony Perkins is never going to change. A bigoted 17 year old might, but you don't change people's minds by attacking them. If he had laid out the same basic argument w/ more of a soft-sell approach he might have influenced some young minds.
131
@127 WOW is the CC wrong! Better get to a functioning computer (at the library?) and hear the real deal.
And, ROCK ON DAN SAVAGE!
And, ROCK ON DAN SAVAGE!
130
"slavery" in the Bible is not the same institution as slavery in the American experience.
The Bible does not advocate slavery. It regulates how believers would relate to an institution that already existed and was prevalent.
Does Danny condemn the Greeks and Romans as well?
The institution of Slavery, as practiced in America, was destroyed by Protestant Christians.
The American Civil Rights Movement was lead and energized by religious leaders and individuals who found their moral code in the Bible.
American slaveholders who waved their Bible and proclaimed it justified their behavior are in the same club as Danny and St Kim who wave their Bibles and claim it endorses homosexual behavior.
In fact, both cults use the healing of the Centurion's servant as exhibit A- "Jebus didn't condemn the bondage/homosexual nature of the relationship; Jebus must love slavery/faggotry!...."
If Danny gets the Bible's take on slavery so wrong how can we trust his interpretation of the Bible's position on something so very very complicated as 'what to and not to stick up your ass'?
The Bible does not advocate slavery. It regulates how believers would relate to an institution that already existed and was prevalent.
Does Danny condemn the Greeks and Romans as well?
The institution of Slavery, as practiced in America, was destroyed by Protestant Christians.
The American Civil Rights Movement was lead and energized by religious leaders and individuals who found their moral code in the Bible.
American slaveholders who waved their Bible and proclaimed it justified their behavior are in the same club as Danny and St Kim who wave their Bibles and claim it endorses homosexual behavior.
In fact, both cults use the healing of the Centurion's servant as exhibit A- "Jebus didn't condemn the bondage/homosexual nature of the relationship; Jebus must love slavery/faggotry!...."
If Danny gets the Bible's take on slavery so wrong how can we trust his interpretation of the Bible's position on something so very very complicated as 'what to and not to stick up your ass'?
128
@120 ignatz ratzkywatzky
I so agree ! Leviticus is supposed not to be valid for Christians - so says Catholic Church.
But do mind that American Christians are mostly Protestants, and I'm not learned enough in European Protestantism to know whether they consider Leviticus to be valid dogma or not. Is there a knowledgeable source out there ?
I so agree ! Leviticus is supposed not to be valid for Christians - so says Catholic Church.
But do mind that American Christians are mostly Protestants, and I'm not learned enough in European Protestantism to know whether they consider Leviticus to be valid dogma or not. Is there a knowledgeable source out there ?
127
Is there somewhere where I can read what Dan actually said ? Thanks !
My audio is not working and I can't believe his text is what the youtube cc button gives ("...is an exercise records rather romans bj's weeding kimber to your own falsity in the bottom about gay people lawrence livermore little shaky playa la shelf place...").
My audio is not working and I can't believe his text is what the youtube cc button gives ("...is an exercise records rather romans bj's weeding kimber to your own falsity in the bottom about gay people lawrence livermore little shaky playa la shelf place...").
126
Totally planned media stunt, fucking hypocrites. Note how the camera angle designed to only show Dan and the few walkouts, not the many people who stayed, cheered and loved it.
Good work Dan, and I hope those few who walked like pansy asses come to a great awakening in the near future regarding the profound ignorance and hostility of their present world view.
Good work Dan, and I hope those few who walked like pansy asses come to a great awakening in the near future regarding the profound ignorance and hostility of their present world view.
125
Opening with calling the Bible, bullshit - although the hypocrisy in it, is - definitely seemed like Dan was going for controversy & headlines. I agree so much w/ what he had to say, in terms of points made, but it's too bad he called those kids who left pansy-assed. Dummies, jerks, cowards, over-reactionary - etc..fine..I dunno. I was (like Dan) bullied in school, & I know it left a mark on me. But it bugs me that he used an insult on them, that was likely used on him.
The positions are different now. Sure he has a right to defend himself - & potentially gay youths who can't speak up for themselves yet - but Dan is himself no longer a bullied teen. He's a popular, nationally syndicated columnist & spoksegay. ;) Although his column started with "hey faggot" way back when I started reading - in print, pre 'net - & his raw humor is a huge component of his popularity, if he really wants people to listen, he shoulda (IMO) built up to saying "bullshit". (Agreeing w/ 72, & maybe 44, though those kids did seem ready to walk from the get-go.)
But hey, we're all talking about it, & that clip will likely make the rounds faster as a result. The taking things outta context has already begun.
I wish the rest of this was available to view somewhere so it could be judged in context of the whole thing.
The positions are different now. Sure he has a right to defend himself - & potentially gay youths who can't speak up for themselves yet - but Dan is himself no longer a bullied teen. He's a popular, nationally syndicated columnist & spoksegay. ;) Although his column started with "hey faggot" way back when I started reading - in print, pre 'net - & his raw humor is a huge component of his popularity, if he really wants people to listen, he shoulda (IMO) built up to saying "bullshit". (Agreeing w/ 72, & maybe 44, though those kids did seem ready to walk from the get-go.)
But hey, we're all talking about it, & that clip will likely make the rounds faster as a result. The taking things outta context has already begun.
I wish the rest of this was available to view somewhere so it could be judged in context of the whole thing.
124
Bearing false witness. These Christians are nothing to do with Christ; they are liars and enemies of Christ.
122
What cowardice that these so-called christians could not ever bear to hear the words Dan was saying. I hear and see BS from christians all the time, but I just roll my eyes and get on with it. You won't see me running out of the room to hide in ignorance.
120
How exactly did Dan curse Christian Teens? Not only was he not cursing out the teens, but his comments were about Leviticus, which is not part of the New Testament. Christians, by accepting Christ as their saviour and redeemer, claim that the rules of Leviticus don't apply to them.
But I guess that American Christianity is special: not only do they get to pick and choose from the Old Testament, but they get to ignore whatever they like from the New Testament as well (and doubly so for the Constitution).
But I guess that American Christianity is special: not only do they get to pick and choose from the Old Testament, but they get to ignore whatever they like from the New Testament as well (and doubly so for the Constitution).
119
Bullying isn't standing up in front of a crowd telling that crowd that anyone who discriminates against gays is a #@%%!%. Bullying is personally and repeatedly telling one other person they are #^%$!!. Dan didn't do that.
118
Interracial harmony, female religious leaders, homosexuals living peacefully, what is there to be afraid of?
Peace.
Peace.
115
@111: Thank you. All the concern trolls saying "Oh Dan, if only you hadn't said 'bullshit' you might have reached these kids" obviously didn't watch the video. First walk out (that we can see) is at 0:21. All Dan has done at that point is refer to the Bible. No swearing, no nothing. This was a planned walk out. Dan's remarks were milder in tone than 90% of the commentary you can see on Fox News.
114
Dan,
Perhaps these words of wisdom will help you:
"Don't be intimidated as they try to reduce you, to mock you, to stop you," she said. "Get off the sidelines. We were created to make a difference and help others put back together their shattered lives and dreams."
http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2012/04/sara…
113
Wow.
If only they awarded Pulitzers for brief moments of perfect, lucid moral commentary.
And, yeah, staged walk-outs are fun to laugh at, even when the ones doing the walking have had barely half as long to learn the difference between wrong, write, and everything in between.
Come on back when you've learned a lick of critical thinking, kiddos. Besides, journalism ain't what it used to be anyway.
If only they awarded Pulitzers for brief moments of perfect, lucid moral commentary.
And, yeah, staged walk-outs are fun to laugh at, even when the ones doing the walking have had barely half as long to learn the difference between wrong, write, and everything in between.
Come on back when you've learned a lick of critical thinking, kiddos. Besides, journalism ain't what it used to be anyway.
112
Well done, Dan. This walk out seemed a bit too 90210 to me. Maybe they were protesting Dylan getting suspended.
If JC and the Bible Bunch want to be mainstream the book should come with good walking shoes.
If JC and the Bible Bunch want to be mainstream the book should come with good walking shoes.
111
It really did look like those kids were planning on the walk-out. The first one walked out the second Dan started talking about the Bible. Dan hadn't said nearly enough to offend anyone when she left. It was planned.
110
@90: Maybe SB is afraid of me because I'm Irish. You know, I hear a bagpipe and next thing I know I'm covered in blood and wearing a necklace made out ears of the English. Some people find that intimidating.
108
I'm with Dan. Besides, it seems like those who walked out only did so because their friends did.
104
@102
Well, I'm sure you're going to plan your trip to Seattle at a time when SB is conveniently out of town, you coward.
Well, I'm sure you're going to plan your trip to Seattle at a time when SB is conveniently out of town, you coward.
103
101
absolutely.
which is why the whole 'dead-mormon baptised' thing was such an attractive offer.
but actually Judy has been doing ok for herself.
Hell turned out to be better than living in Chicago had been.
and being George's 69th wife is marginally better than Hell.
and the whole 'blessed mother' of Danny's homocult fanbase is just gravy....
absolutely.
which is why the whole 'dead-mormon baptised' thing was such an attractive offer.
but actually Judy has been doing ok for herself.
Hell turned out to be better than living in Chicago had been.
and being George's 69th wife is marginally better than Hell.
and the whole 'blessed mother' of Danny's homocult fanbase is just gravy....
102
Hey Lissa! Not to worry - the only way I can communicate with our flip-flopping buddy SB is through Slog, so the next time I visit, everyone will know.
101
100
yes.
it's true.
the story was in the first edition of Danny's second book, but dropped from later editions.
so the first editions are collectors' items that fetch upwards of two bucks on eBay.
as opposed to most of Danny's books that can be had on Amazon for 29¢.....
yes.
it's true.
the story was in the first edition of Danny's second book, but dropped from later editions.
so the first editions are collectors' items that fetch upwards of two bucks on eBay.
as opposed to most of Danny's books that can be had on Amazon for 29¢.....
100
67
yeah. Danny tells that 'running for the Priest' story a lot.
Actually, it haunts his darkest nightmares....
see, fact is, Danny couldn't resist giving the Padre a blowjob before he took him to his mommy (old habits die hard....get it? HARD hahahaha!) and he was too late and she had already croaked and is spending eternity in hell cause Danny was a selfish deviant dickwad.
yeah. Danny tells that 'running for the Priest' story a lot.
Actually, it haunts his darkest nightmares....
see, fact is, Danny couldn't resist giving the Padre a blowjob before he took him to his mommy (old habits die hard....get it? HARD hahahaha!) and he was too late and she had already croaked and is spending eternity in hell cause Danny was a selfish deviant dickwad.
99
@93: You think such levels of masochism exist, and that he'd be lucky enough to find such a woman? Well, if they're out there, they're almost certain to be Young Republicans, so maybe there is hope for him.
98
Birth Control?
If Danny really wanted to be helpful yet edgily provocative he would have demonstrated the safe way to suck a door knob.
most kids have no idea how to get a condom over one of those.......
If Danny really wanted to be helpful yet edgily provocative he would have demonstrated the safe way to suck a door knob.
most kids have no idea how to get a condom over one of those.......
97
@85
"SB, why do cons always pull the 'I don't have time because I'm sooooo busy' card every time you get your butt kicked on the blogs?"
Because he is trolling.
Consider for a moment how Dan would act should Dan decide to hang out on a Christian site and post comments.
1. Dan's comments, while incendiary for that site, would be logically consistent.
Seattleblues' are not.
2. Should someone demand to meet Dan in person, Dan would be able to accommodate that.
Seattleblues cannot.
3. Dan would not claim to have no time to meet ... but plenty of time to post ... except when his logical inconsistencies were being pointed out to the world.
Seattleblues ...
Those are some of the easy ways to tell someone who is trolling from someone who has a set of beliefs that are different than yours.
In a world where people are beaten and killed because they are not heterosexual Dan (and others) still manage to meet the public.
Seattleblues and others like him (her?) refuses to meet even a single person who disagrees with his views in public. And he wants to pretend that he is fooling everyone (anyone?) with his excuses.
Think about the kid that no one liked who, during recess, had to make up stories that the other kids did not believe. But he had to swear they were true stories. And when the other kids demanded some proof ... he'd say that he could provide the proof they demanded ... but something happened to it ... or he didn't want to because they were being mean to him and they had to be nice to him if they wanted him to prove that his stories were true.
"SB, why do cons always pull the 'I don't have time because I'm sooooo busy' card every time you get your butt kicked on the blogs?"
Because he is trolling.
Consider for a moment how Dan would act should Dan decide to hang out on a Christian site and post comments.
1. Dan's comments, while incendiary for that site, would be logically consistent.
Seattleblues' are not.
2. Should someone demand to meet Dan in person, Dan would be able to accommodate that.
Seattleblues cannot.
3. Dan would not claim to have no time to meet ... but plenty of time to post ... except when his logical inconsistencies were being pointed out to the world.
Seattleblues ...
Those are some of the easy ways to tell someone who is trolling from someone who has a set of beliefs that are different than yours.
In a world where people are beaten and killed because they are not heterosexual Dan (and others) still manage to meet the public.
Seattleblues and others like him (her?) refuses to meet even a single person who disagrees with his views in public. And he wants to pretend that he is fooling everyone (anyone?) with his excuses.
Think about the kid that no one liked who, during recess, had to make up stories that the other kids did not believe. But he had to swear they were true stories. And when the other kids demanded some proof ... he'd say that he could provide the proof they demanded ... but something happened to it ... or he didn't want to because they were being mean to him and they had to be nice to him if they wanted him to prove that his stories were true.
96
The mistake Mr. Savage made, which is repeated by many commenters here, is assuming that the people who walked out are actively pursuing anti-gay agendas. Many faithful Christians are working for equality too, because of their faith; yet he was belittling them for their beliefs. His lack of respect toward these kids makes him an unfortunate spokesperson for the LGBT community.
95
Yes, Seattleblues, you spend a lot of time scoping Slog. It's really interesting how fascinated you are by something that you insist repulses you. I wouldn't be shocked AT ALL if it turned out that you consume massive amounts of porn. But I understand. I used to be a fundie also and it's amazing how drawn we are to those things that we ostensibly forbid ourselves as "sin". Life feels so much freer once you are able to free yourself from the shackles of this rigid and arbitrary morality. At your age, though, it's essentially impossible to abandon the philosophy/worldview that is your identity.
"You can't be gay and Christian." An onrunning debate that has been discussed extensively on Slog. The following video was posted weeks ago - by Dan - and it got a ton of comments:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQjNJUSr…
(I'm sure you saw the post, Seattleblues, but you probably skipped it. That's okay. So did I.)
I don't know what's in this supposedly amazing presentation, but I can tell you that none of the definitions of what makes a Christian a Christian involve sexual orientation. Therefore, you can be a homosexual and Christian at the same time, technically speaking. Your breeding may result in some personal dissonance if you're a member of both groups that you may have to resolve, but it's not either/or.
And I thought Dan's presentation would be worse! Based on what I'd "heard" (uhum), I feared that Dan had lost his head and had started cursing out the Christians. He was just blunt about his dislike of the Bible.
Christians are trained to be sensitive and defensive. That said, I can understand why they walked out. Christianity is more than a religion to them. It is their identity. And so, when you're saying that the Bible is "bullshit", you are laying a direct assault on who they are (even if the Bible is bullshit at times). You can't expect them to just sit there and let this guy go on about who they are is based on bullshit, especially if it's at the beginning of the presentation and God knows what else is coming. This is an assault and the Christian kids apparently decided that they didn't want to be a captive audience.
I agree with Dan's sentiment, but his choice of words was rash. Yes, even if they're oversensitive, even if they don't deserve to be treated with such consideration, he should have treated them as the fragile vases that they are. A lot of Christians don't give a damn when they let loose on their homophobia, but we expect that from them. Dan should have been a better person.
For example, instead of using "bullshit", he could have said, "We choose to ignore the parts of the Bible that seem ludicrous today." There's something about that word "bullshit" that puts a person in warrior mode. The Christians still wouldn't have liked to have their worldview openly criticized, but perhaps they wouldn't have walked out. And then maybe, if there was an open-mike session at the end of the presentation, they could have voiced their displeasure and contributed to the discussion
More...
"You can't be gay and Christian." An onrunning debate that has been discussed extensively on Slog. The following video was posted weeks ago - by Dan - and it got a ton of comments:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQjNJUSr…
(I'm sure you saw the post, Seattleblues, but you probably skipped it. That's okay. So did I.)
I don't know what's in this supposedly amazing presentation, but I can tell you that none of the definitions of what makes a Christian a Christian involve sexual orientation. Therefore, you can be a homosexual and Christian at the same time, technically speaking. Your breeding may result in some personal dissonance if you're a member of both groups that you may have to resolve, but it's not either/or.
And I thought Dan's presentation would be worse! Based on what I'd "heard" (uhum), I feared that Dan had lost his head and had started cursing out the Christians. He was just blunt about his dislike of the Bible.
Christians are trained to be sensitive and defensive. That said, I can understand why they walked out. Christianity is more than a religion to them. It is their identity. And so, when you're saying that the Bible is "bullshit", you are laying a direct assault on who they are (even if the Bible is bullshit at times). You can't expect them to just sit there and let this guy go on about who they are is based on bullshit, especially if it's at the beginning of the presentation and God knows what else is coming. This is an assault and the Christian kids apparently decided that they didn't want to be a captive audience.
I agree with Dan's sentiment, but his choice of words was rash. Yes, even if they're oversensitive, even if they don't deserve to be treated with such consideration, he should have treated them as the fragile vases that they are. A lot of Christians don't give a damn when they let loose on their homophobia, but we expect that from them. Dan should have been a better person.
For example, instead of using "bullshit", he could have said, "We choose to ignore the parts of the Bible that seem ludicrous today." There's something about that word "bullshit" that puts a person in warrior mode. The Christians still wouldn't have liked to have their worldview openly criticized, but perhaps they wouldn't have walked out. And then maybe, if there was an open-mike session at the end of the presentation, they could have voiced their displeasure and contributed to the discussion
94
89
wow.
that's sad.
butt, danny could have mowed all the xtian kids down with an ak47 and it still wouldn't do anything to revive that lameass dog of a show he's pimping....
wow.
that's sad.
butt, danny could have mowed all the xtian kids down with an ak47 and it still wouldn't do anything to revive that lameass dog of a show he's pimping....
93
Oh dear. People actually think there is a real Seattleblahs? Relax, He's just some college Republican or precocious high school senior living out his fantasy life. He'll go away once he gets a girlfriend.
92
88
that prayer is out of date, Troll.
word in heaven is that Judy got herself dead-Mormon baptised and is now one of George Romney's polygamy wives.....
damn!
Danny is step-brother to the next POTUS!!
that prayer is out of date, Troll.
word in heaven is that Judy got herself dead-Mormon baptised and is now one of George Romney's polygamy wives.....
damn!
Danny is step-brother to the next POTUS!!
90
@64: Someone's afraid to hit a girl, eh? She's calling you out and you're bailing because of her ovaries. And somehow she's the coward?
If someone picks a fight with me, his or her gender has no bearing on my response other than pronoun choice. Buck up and quit pretending that women are fainting belles who can't be allowed in argument, discussion or debate.
If someone picks a fight with me, his or her gender has no bearing on my response other than pronoun choice. Buck up and quit pretending that women are fainting belles who can't be allowed in argument, discussion or debate.
89
There's nothing wrong about the content of what Dan said, but he could have said the exact the same thing in a way that was less confrontational and offensive.
It's one thing when he's touring as a sex advice columnist or a political commentator; people show up to hear the unexpurgated Savage, who is a blast. But when he's invited to give a talk to student journalists as an anti-bullying activist, there's a certain level of decorum that's reasonably expected.
Dan's an excellent promoter, and I can only assume that he deliberately sparked some controversy to bring attention to his TV show. It would be amusingly harmless if he weren't damaging the reputation of the It Gets Better project in the process.
It's one thing when he's touring as a sex advice columnist or a political commentator; people show up to hear the unexpurgated Savage, who is a blast. But when he's invited to give a talk to student journalists as an anti-bullying activist, there's a certain level of decorum that's reasonably expected.
Dan's an excellent promoter, and I can only assume that he deliberately sparked some controversy to bring attention to his TV show. It would be amusingly harmless if he weren't damaging the reputation of the It Gets Better project in the process.
88
So Danny dutifully ran to find a child molester to bless his mommy's departing soul...
what are we to conclude from that?
that Judy (blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb...)
was a seriously disturbed superstitious bigot?
that Danny is a crass hypocrite?
help us out, @67....
what lesson do the FanBoys take from it?
what are we to conclude from that?
that Judy (blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb...)
was a seriously disturbed superstitious bigot?
that Danny is a crass hypocrite?
help us out, @67....
what lesson do the FanBoys take from it?
87
@seattleblues. I think the part of manhood you're missing is where you face the things that scare you. Not once have you done that. I'm sure you know this deep down because it's a vital part of growing up.
You can change the subject, you can whine, you can avoid the parts of life that make you uncomfortable. But when you do, you've dodged the responsibility that comes with being a mature adult.
I know you love America. The entire country was founded on the new and being man enough the face it. You need to move back to Europe where people ate scared of change, to afraid to cross the ocean. Simply, people like you.
You can change the subject, you can whine, you can avoid the parts of life that make you uncomfortable. But when you do, you've dodged the responsibility that comes with being a mature adult.
I know you love America. The entire country was founded on the new and being man enough the face it. You need to move back to Europe where people ate scared of change, to afraid to cross the ocean. Simply, people like you.
86
@85: Why hello Matt! I so look forward to your next visit! Perhaps we can become acquainted in real life, and I can tag along when you meet our friend SB.
85
SB, why do cons always pull the "I don't have time because I'm sooooo busy" card every time you get your butt kicked on the blogs? You have all the time in the world to post here, so that's just one more lie, isn't it?
84
67
"parts of the bible he can agree with....."
Danny is like every other narrow minded bigot,
picking the parts he agrees with and throwing out the parts he doesn't like.
Danny doesn't have a problem with the bible so much as a problem with people who do not interpret it like he does....
"parts of the bible he can agree with....."
Danny is like every other narrow minded bigot,
picking the parts he agrees with and throwing out the parts he doesn't like.
Danny doesn't have a problem with the bible so much as a problem with people who do not interpret it like he does....
82
@78: Such a corner you've painted yourself into poor thing! I have a screen shot of your last comment, and look forward to rubbing your nose in it when next you try weasel out from under your posturing.
You are afraid of meeting me, or any one on slog. When Matt comes to visit you will find some far fetched excuse to avoid him as well. You are a coward who hides behind anonymity.
You are afraid of meeting me, or any one on slog. When Matt comes to visit you will find some far fetched excuse to avoid him as well. You are a coward who hides behind anonymity.
81
@80
"I work at home. On my computer as often as not. For myself."
Of course you do. And yet you still believe that 10 dead soldiers are better than Romney paying a single penny more in taxes.
Amazing how that works.
"I work at home. On my computer as often as not. For myself."
Of course you do. And yet you still believe that 10 dead soldiers are better than Romney paying a single penny more in taxes.
Amazing how that works.
80
@77
I work at home. On my computer as often as not. For myself.
So while I'm so very touched by your concern, you may now enjoy the rest of your weekend free of that overwhelming concern.
Did you take a deep breath of relief? Bet you did.
I work at home. On my computer as often as not. For myself.
So while I'm so very touched by your concern, you may now enjoy the rest of your weekend free of that overwhelming concern.
Did you take a deep breath of relief? Bet you did.
79
@69: Thank you!
@73:
Take care of your family financially and emotionally, be loyal and trustworthy with your friends, and do the work you do well and honestly and you're a man. Don't and you aren't.
Ah how it boils your bacon that Dan lives up to your definition in every way, and also possesses the courage you lack to stand by his words.
As I understand it loose bowls and flu like symptoms are common afflictions of a coward.
@73:
Take care of your family financially and emotionally, be loyal and trustworthy with your friends, and do the work you do well and honestly and you're a man. Don't and you aren't.
Ah how it boils your bacon that Dan lives up to your definition in every way, and also possesses the courage you lack to stand by his words.
As I understand it loose bowls and flu like symptoms are common afflictions of a coward.
78
@75
With someone I care deeply about, like my wife or my mother or sisters, I have to put up with these sorts of endless conversations. With you, I don't.
See, I assume you don't actually care what I think. I hope you don't, for your own sake. I certainly don't care what you think. You might be a very pleasant, intelligent and charming lady. I neither know nor care. Constant invitations to Slog Happy or the wonderful opportunity of having a far left ideologue call me a liar personally just don't interest me that much.
Matt issued a challenge, which I foolishly accepted. I still would honor that challenge, if he's ever in Seattle. But I won't extend that honor to every slavering lefty out there.
Have a nice evening.
With someone I care deeply about, like my wife or my mother or sisters, I have to put up with these sorts of endless conversations. With you, I don't.
See, I assume you don't actually care what I think. I hope you don't, for your own sake. I certainly don't care what you think. You might be a very pleasant, intelligent and charming lady. I neither know nor care. Constant invitations to Slog Happy or the wonderful opportunity of having a far left ideologue call me a liar personally just don't interest me that much.
Matt issued a challenge, which I foolishly accepted. I still would honor that challenge, if he's ever in Seattle. But I won't extend that honor to every slavering lefty out there.
Have a nice evening.
77
You may have unlimited time with no family or friends or jobs to call you away that make wasting an evening arguing with someone you'll never agree with on the most basic assumptions. I don't. Given a choice of an evening being sick with the flu and one in the company of anyone who could admire a subhuman thing like Dan Savage, the flu wins hands down.
Your personal life must be pretty goddamned awful then, SB. After all, you spend so much of your free time in the online company of so many Savage fans here on SLOG, while neglecting those responsibilities to your family, friends and job.
Your personal life must be pretty goddamned awful then, SB. After all, you spend so much of your free time in the online company of so many Savage fans here on SLOG, while neglecting those responsibilities to your family, friends and job.
76
Nicely put, Dan. I didn't find you offensive at all. Those young people got their consciences pricked and they will survive. They need to learn to think critically. Thank you for standing up for yourself and for those who cannot speak for themselves.
75
@64: Oh how you change your tune!
Initially you refused to meet with me because you insisted that Matt had challenged you to a fistfight, and that he was hiding behind my skirts. But when confronted with the facts (and your lies) and no longer able to maintain that fiction, you now would have us believe that the very act of confrontation is outside a woman's scope. I see.
I'm afraid I must be the first to reveal to you that we live in America and the 21st century and any one with the moral courage to do so, regardless of gender, can take up the challenge given by a liar to call him so to his face.
If that liar is so delicate a flower that the very idea of a woman confronting him with his own perfidy is more than he can bear, than cowardice is a reasonable appellation.
It is not for me to defend my words. We have more than enough of your own as evidence of your compulsive mendacity. And now, of course, of your moral and physical cowardice as well.
Initially you refused to meet with me because you insisted that Matt had challenged you to a fistfight, and that he was hiding behind my skirts. But when confronted with the facts (and your lies) and no longer able to maintain that fiction, you now would have us believe that the very act of confrontation is outside a woman's scope. I see.
I'm afraid I must be the first to reveal to you that we live in America and the 21st century and any one with the moral courage to do so, regardless of gender, can take up the challenge given by a liar to call him so to his face.
If that liar is so delicate a flower that the very idea of a woman confronting him with his own perfidy is more than he can bear, than cowardice is a reasonable appellation.
It is not for me to defend my words. We have more than enough of your own as evidence of your compulsive mendacity. And now, of course, of your moral and physical cowardice as well.
74
@72
Dunno about that one. Even when you're "steadfast and calm and rational" with someone opposing LGBT rights they don't care. For them, the bible says it's wrong and that is that. Not much to rationalize with there. Besides, I find it laughable that they would take such offense to what Dan said. It's nothing compared to being called an abomination, condemned to eternal hellfire, compared to pedophilia and bestiality, etc.
Dunno about that one. Even when you're "steadfast and calm and rational" with someone opposing LGBT rights they don't care. For them, the bible says it's wrong and that is that. Not much to rationalize with there. Besides, I find it laughable that they would take such offense to what Dan said. It's nothing compared to being called an abomination, condemned to eternal hellfire, compared to pedophilia and bestiality, etc.
73
@69
Nah. This is just the latest in a series of requests this poster has made for face to face confrontation.
I don't have any 'vaunted manhood.' Masculinity, like dignity, is something a person has or doesn't based on their actions. Take care of your family financially and emotionally, be loyal and trustworthy with your friends, and do the work you do well and honestly and you're a man. Don't and you aren't.
You may have unlimited time with no family or friends or jobs to call you away that make wasting an evening arguing with someone you'll never agree with on the most basic assumptions. I don't. Given a choice of an evening being sick with the flu and one in the company of anyone who could admire a subhuman thing like Dan Savage, the flu wins hands down.
Nah. This is just the latest in a series of requests this poster has made for face to face confrontation.
I don't have any 'vaunted manhood.' Masculinity, like dignity, is something a person has or doesn't based on their actions. Take care of your family financially and emotionally, be loyal and trustworthy with your friends, and do the work you do well and honestly and you're a man. Don't and you aren't.
You may have unlimited time with no family or friends or jobs to call you away that make wasting an evening arguing with someone you'll never agree with on the most basic assumptions. I don't. Given a choice of an evening being sick with the flu and one in the company of anyone who could admire a subhuman thing like Dan Savage, the flu wins hands down.
72
I'm not particularly fond of the "pansy" comment, or the use of profanity so abruptly in the talk. Everything he said was true, and those kids needed to hear it, but yeah, what 44 said about ears snapping closed.
Not that those kids who left were going to listen anyway. Look at their faces as they leave. I'm betting that was a planned walkout. Those kids were going to walk out in protest no matter what he said.
Sigh... But I suppose that doesn't matter. You win people over to the reasonable side by being steadfast and calm and rational, not antagonistic.
They are pansies, though.
Not that those kids who left were going to listen anyway. Look at their faces as they leave. I'm betting that was a planned walkout. Those kids were going to walk out in protest no matter what he said.
Sigh... But I suppose that doesn't matter. You win people over to the reasonable side by being steadfast and calm and rational, not antagonistic.
They are pansies, though.
71
@50
You cannot be Christian and gay. The two are mutually exclusive..
somebody forgot to tell jesus...
You cannot be Christian and gay. The two are mutually exclusive..
somebody forgot to tell jesus...
69
Oh SB, you never cease to amuse!
So, now you're going to hide behind the hoopskirts of "mana-a-mano" posturing, and all because you're afraid of being called out to your face by a - gasp! - female!
How does it feel to realize your vaunted manhood is so fragile that a mere woman could easily wipe the floor with you, both rhetorically - and no doubt physically - with one arm tied behind her back?
I believe the word you're flailing around for there is "emasculated" buddy, but not to worry, you'll have plenty of years to get used to it...
So, now you're going to hide behind the hoopskirts of "mana-a-mano" posturing, and all because you're afraid of being called out to your face by a - gasp! - female!
How does it feel to realize your vaunted manhood is so fragile that a mere woman could easily wipe the floor with you, both rhetorically - and no doubt physically - with one arm tied behind her back?
I believe the word you're flailing around for there is "emasculated" buddy, but not to worry, you'll have plenty of years to get used to it...
67
@65
He called the act of their walking out pansy-assed. Which it was. It was cowardly. He didn't call them "pansies" or pansy-asses.
The next part of his speech actually dealt with all the good things about Christianity. He talked about how he ran to get a priest as his mother was dying, and parts of the bible he can agree with. It was fascinating. I wish there was video of it.
He called the act of their walking out pansy-assed. Which it was. It was cowardly. He didn't call them "pansies" or pansy-asses.
The next part of his speech actually dealt with all the good things about Christianity. He talked about how he ran to get a priest as his mother was dying, and parts of the bible he can agree with. It was fascinating. I wish there was video of it.
66
@57
It was a packed room of nearly 3000 kids and advisors from all over the US. Maybe 45 kids left, and he got a rousing standing ovation.
So this speech was VERY WELL RECIEVED by everyone else.
It was a packed room of nearly 3000 kids and advisors from all over the US. Maybe 45 kids left, and he got a rousing standing ovation.
So this speech was VERY WELL RECIEVED by everyone else.
65
Does it bother none of Dan's cheerleaders on this that he called people "pansies" during a talk that was ostensibly supposed to be about bullying??
64
@Lissa
Offers still open to Matt, anytime he's in Seattle.
But where I grew up that form of challenge is between a man and a man. Ladies need not apply. But cheer up! It means people like you can throw words like coward and liar around without having to defend them! (I'm granting you the benefit of the doubt with the term. You're welcome.)
Sorry, but you'll have to put this often stated desire to visit with me personally in your 'dreams unlikely to be realized' file.
@Lissa
Offers still open to Matt, anytime he's in Seattle.
But where I grew up that form of challenge is between a man and a man. Ladies need not apply. But cheer up! It means people like you can throw words like coward and liar around without having to defend them! (I'm granting you the benefit of the doubt with the term. You're welcome.)
Sorry, but you'll have to put this often stated desire to visit with me personally in your 'dreams unlikely to be realized' file.
63
Dan is to be congratulated for defending himself from the beatings.
why- just before the clip starts several of the 9th graders in the audience had been pelting Dan with vicious blows about the head and shoulders.
kudos to our hero for standing up to the vicious bully thugs in the auditorium.
why- just before the clip starts several of the 9th graders in the audience had been pelting Dan with vicious blows about the head and shoulders.
kudos to our hero for standing up to the vicious bully thugs in the auditorium.
62
Oh, and by the way...
Back a few years ago, I worked for a nationa home health care company. They had annual meetings that all employees had to go to where all the bigwigs would speak and they would pretend to appreciate their employees. The COO at the time gave a long speech that was basically a literal journey through Genesis. I was offended far more by that than I was by Dan's speech, and I wondered how all the non-Christians i the room were perceiving what was basically a Christian sermon. If I weren't afraid of losing my job, I would have gotten up and left.
Also, that company is now under investigation for Medicate fraud. Make of that what you will...
Back a few years ago, I worked for a nationa home health care company. They had annual meetings that all employees had to go to where all the bigwigs would speak and they would pretend to appreciate their employees. The COO at the time gave a long speech that was basically a literal journey through Genesis. I was offended far more by that than I was by Dan's speech, and I wondered how all the non-Christians i the room were perceiving what was basically a Christian sermon. If I weren't afraid of losing my job, I would have gotten up and left.
Also, that company is now under investigation for Medicate fraud. Make of that what you will...
61
I'm a Christian. I even worked for the Catholic church for a time (and it drove me from Catholicis...).
What Dan said is true. As time has gone by, and Biblical scholarship has changed, we can recognize that most of what was written in the Bible was written to specific groups of people at specific times in history when what was written made sense. Much of it (especially a lot of the stuff in the Pentateuch) doesn't make sense in the 21st century. Therefore we ignore it.
We are getting there with the social issues in the Bible, too, like they ramapant misogyny (although, Paul gets a bad rap on that account. Most scholars believe that the most misogynistic letters attributed to him were actually written by someone else...but I digress) and the few instances of language that can be interpreted as anti-gay, etc.
That doesn't mean I don't believe that there is Truth to be gleaned from the Bible - if I didn't, I couldn't call myself a follower of Christ. But I do believe it is critical to try to discern what is valuable (love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you...) from what is bullshit (women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says).
What Dan said is true. As time has gone by, and Biblical scholarship has changed, we can recognize that most of what was written in the Bible was written to specific groups of people at specific times in history when what was written made sense. Much of it (especially a lot of the stuff in the Pentateuch) doesn't make sense in the 21st century. Therefore we ignore it.
We are getting there with the social issues in the Bible, too, like they ramapant misogyny (although, Paul gets a bad rap on that account. Most scholars believe that the most misogynistic letters attributed to him were actually written by someone else...but I digress) and the few instances of language that can be interpreted as anti-gay, etc.
That doesn't mean I don't believe that there is Truth to be gleaned from the Bible - if I didn't, I couldn't call myself a follower of Christ. But I do believe it is critical to try to discern what is valuable (love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you...) from what is bullshit (women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says).
60
@51: I would like to point out, that you yourself in the McKenna thread just used the exact same word. Shall we call the moderator? Tsk Tsk!
Also, I'm afraid you are the one who issued the challenge that "anytime he felt up to it" Matt should call you a liar to your face, and as he lives in Denver, and I live here, I have accepted that challenge in his stead.
If you would care to recant? Admit that you only said so because you knew that Matt was unlikely to, due to prohibitive distance actually be able to call you a liar to your face? Admit you are a liar and a coward, afraid of a well dress lady such as myself?
Please. Go right ahead.
Also, I'm afraid you are the one who issued the challenge that "anytime he felt up to it" Matt should call you a liar to your face, and as he lives in Denver, and I live here, I have accepted that challenge in his stead.
If you would care to recant? Admit that you only said so because you knew that Matt was unlikely to, due to prohibitive distance actually be able to call you a liar to your face? Admit you are a liar and a coward, afraid of a well dress lady such as myself?
Please. Go right ahead.
59
A bully is a bully is a bully. I'm sure you will do well as Obama's new Czar of Bully Prevention---peace out.
57
I have a question: does anyone know how many of those kids who didn't leave, who cheered Dan while the others were offense parading out of there, or who kept sitting there and listened to him even if they didn't quite agree with everything he was saying, or the manner of his saying it, also identify as Christian? Can we acknowledge there were probably some of those in the room too? Or do we all just buy into the right wing talking point that only right wing Christianity is Christianity and only right wingers are Christians and everyone else are just liberal communist atheists?
56
I completely agree. I just would've avoided using expletives to describe the wrongs he spells out. Yes, they are bullshit, but no, you are not going to win any new fans that way. Plus, nobody in that audience was pushing their views on Dan, and to me, to call their beliefs bullshit, is beyond rude. They are entitled to have their beliefs respected so long as they are doing the same, and I believe that sitting quietly and listening (or silently walking out), is showing respect to Dan, but insulting one's religion is pretty serious disrespect. I'm not religious, I just think that we all need to respect each other (that's what this battle is about, after all...) This battle needs all the soldiers it can get, and I think that choosing language carefully to avoid alienation (haha Alien Nation) would be prudent. There was a way to get that point accross, while tricking the religious kids into staying by way of the choice of words you use, and then... You have planted the seeds in their cute little non-yet-jaded young minds. That, imo, goes much much farther.
The left really has a lot to learn about presentation... But then again, it looks like the right is losing their ability to present well, which used to be their strongest attribute (albeit not actually earned but just utilized to manipulate people). But people need to be manipulated, they need leadership. Time and time again, people fail without proper leadership, and a good leader knows when to manipulate. I think an opportunity was missed here. However, Dan gets big points for not calling them out as the leave, as that would have been lending much attention and strength to them.
I never understood the point of walking out on someone that is saying something you don't want to hear. I always give my ideological enemies the chance to convince me of their position, but hey, I'm not an ideologue. I keep ideology and practice separate, which is where they belong: All ideology is wrong. The world is not an ideal place: It is a tangible place. You cannot hold ideology in your hand, but you can hold earth in your hand... Ideology is not real, we just make it up as we go along: It's lazy.
More...
The left really has a lot to learn about presentation... But then again, it looks like the right is losing their ability to present well, which used to be their strongest attribute (albeit not actually earned but just utilized to manipulate people). But people need to be manipulated, they need leadership. Time and time again, people fail without proper leadership, and a good leader knows when to manipulate. I think an opportunity was missed here. However, Dan gets big points for not calling them out as the leave, as that would have been lending much attention and strength to them.
I never understood the point of walking out on someone that is saying something you don't want to hear. I always give my ideological enemies the chance to convince me of their position, but hey, I'm not an ideologue. I keep ideology and practice separate, which is where they belong: All ideology is wrong. The world is not an ideal place: It is a tangible place. You cannot hold ideology in your hand, but you can hold earth in your hand... Ideology is not real, we just make it up as we go along: It's lazy.
55
Yay Seattleblues is back! How's it hanging buddy? Long time no see! Still getting high off the smoke of burning witches?
54
@51
I have no idea how you're even making a connection between my comment and whatever in the world you're thinking about your kids.
By the way, do you let the kids you claim to have know that you post here? And do you let those kids you claim to have read what your comments?
I have no idea how you're even making a connection between my comment and whatever in the world you're thinking about your kids.
By the way, do you let the kids you claim to have know that you post here? And do you let those kids you claim to have read what your comments?
53
@45
"QED"
So that is a "yes"?
Or a "no"?
Why, exactly, do you have so much trouble with such a simple question?
Which gets back, specifically, to the problems those "Christians" have with Dan's speech.
The simple questions are always the hardest, for some reason.
Why are homosexuals so terrible in the Bible but slavery is acceptable?
"QED"
So that is a "yes"?
Or a "no"?
Why, exactly, do you have so much trouble with such a simple question?
Which gets back, specifically, to the problems those "Christians" have with Dan's speech.
The simple questions are always the hardest, for some reason.
Why are homosexuals so terrible in the Bible but slavery is acceptable?
52
@41: Seattleblues, since language is so important to you, when we meet, and I call you a liar to your face, I promise that no profanity will be used.
Everything Dan said about aspects of the bible which are currently ignored, and ignored by the kids leaving that auditorium, is factually true.
Everything Dan said about aspects of the bible which are currently ignored, and ignored by the kids leaving that auditorium, is factually true.
51
@39
My kids are 8 and 11 respectively, but some day they'll be sexually active.
So you've convinced me. Starting today they have to watch half an hour of porn every day, on the theory that porn (badly) represents sex and someday they'll have sex!
Any parents worth their salt will be demanding whatever it cost to send their kids to this disgraceful exhibition be refunded by the idiots that chose a thing like Savage as a representative of journalism, and then allowed him to speak in that way to that audience.
(Pro tip to the event administration- If a speaker is violating rules or basic decency, you can shut off his microphone.)
My kids are 8 and 11 respectively, but some day they'll be sexually active.
So you've convinced me. Starting today they have to watch half an hour of porn every day, on the theory that porn (badly) represents sex and someday they'll have sex!
Any parents worth their salt will be demanding whatever it cost to send their kids to this disgraceful exhibition be refunded by the idiots that chose a thing like Savage as a representative of journalism, and then allowed him to speak in that way to that audience.
(Pro tip to the event administration- If a speaker is violating rules or basic decency, you can shut off his microphone.)
50
You cannot be Christian and gay. The two are mutually exclusive. Mr. Savage's whole It Gets Better campaign is anti-bullying, correct? Then how can he stand there and be a bully to the Christian kids in the audience (i.e. calling them "pansy-ass")? Doesn't that make him a hypocrite?
49
40 yeah, Dan intimidating a couple of dozen 13 year old christians is moving, no doubt, but Schmader should post the video where Savage gets in the face of an auditorium of Iranian religious police (who super glue homosexuals' rectums shut....) if you want to see real courage and conviction.
47
@33.. and joke em if they can't take a fuck..
and...
this is as a chriistian.. if i'd heard what dan had to say as a closeted christian gay when i was 16. i would've listened to all of it and the clouds would have parted , the choirs would've sang, the sun would've blazed and it would have saved me 2 decades of empty headed hand wringing.
so dan keep on keeping on. there are LOTS of closeted christian kids who want and need to hear what you're saying. and they are listening.
and...
this is as a chriistian.. if i'd heard what dan had to say as a closeted christian gay when i was 16. i would've listened to all of it and the clouds would have parted , the choirs would've sang, the sun would've blazed and it would have saved me 2 decades of empty headed hand wringing.
so dan keep on keeping on. there are LOTS of closeted christian kids who want and need to hear what you're saying. and they are listening.
46
Sorry, David @15. My comment was directed at the complainers, not you. I guess I wasn't clear about who I was railing about.
45
@43
"Liberals aren't very bright, ..."
You still think that 10 dead soldiers are worth less than a one penny tax increase for Romney?
QED.
"Liberals aren't very bright, ..."
You still think that 10 dead soldiers are worth less than a one penny tax increase for Romney?
QED.
44
I don't know. I see a bit of a tactical error here. I agree 100% with what Dan said, but I think he should have first listed all the things in the bible that christian anti-gay bigots ignore. Then when he (hopefully) got them thinking about what they choose to ignore in the bible and what they choose to obey, that's when he should have called it bullshit.
The words "bullshit" and "bible" in the same sentence right at the beginning caused the christian kids' ears to snap closed like an alligator's jaws. They didn't hear a word he said after that.
The words "bullshit" and "bible" in the same sentence right at the beginning caused the christian kids' ears to snap closed like an alligator's jaws. They didn't hear a word he said after that.
43
@41
"Liberals aren't very bright, ..."
You still think that 10 dead soldiers are worth less than a one penny tax increase for Romney?
"Liberals aren't very bright, ..."
You still think that 10 dead soldiers are worth less than a one penny tax increase for Romney?
42
That. Was. Awesome.
"Callista Gingrich lives!" bumper stickers, anyone?
Also, hooray for eating shellfish!
"Callista Gingrich lives!" bumper stickers, anyone?
Also, hooray for eating shellfish!
41
Sorry- was it supposed to be a surprise that Little Danny Boy the Savage is a hate filled bigoted bully as well as an aging missionary of his own perversions?
I mean, it takes a special level of barbarity to insult a child leaving your (off topic) lecture because you're being disrespectful past the point of vulgarity. It takes real tact to address a group of high school students in a way that would invite censure if it were a convention of sex workers.
So who is surprised exactly? I thought everyone already knew that the disgusting thing called Savage left his humanity behind a long, long time ago.
@30
Got it in one, sarcastic tone aside. Liberals aren't very bright, so they need a one sentence worldview or religion so watered down as to be just a collection of platitudes, it's true.
But for the adults among us context and language, differences between the New and Old Testaments and so on matter. I mean, I don't read 2 paragraphs of War and Peace and pretend to understand the book. How would you expect to take a few sentences of the Bible and expect to understand it?
I mean, it takes a special level of barbarity to insult a child leaving your (off topic) lecture because you're being disrespectful past the point of vulgarity. It takes real tact to address a group of high school students in a way that would invite censure if it were a convention of sex workers.
So who is surprised exactly? I thought everyone already knew that the disgusting thing called Savage left his humanity behind a long, long time ago.
@30
Got it in one, sarcastic tone aside. Liberals aren't very bright, so they need a one sentence worldview or religion so watered down as to be just a collection of platitudes, it's true.
But for the adults among us context and language, differences between the New and Old Testaments and so on matter. I mean, I don't read 2 paragraphs of War and Peace and pretend to understand the book. How would you expect to take a few sentences of the Bible and expect to understand it?
39
I just realized that this was an audience of high school reporters. If they continue with journalism, they'd better learn to deal with being exposed to ideas they may not necessarily agree with, since Fox News can hire only so many people.
38
It isn't too late for Newt to drag Callista to her father's door (or grave, if he's dead).
Sure are a lot of shellfish eaters there.
Sure are a lot of shellfish eaters there.
37
Goddamn. Very nice, Dan, though I'm not surprised by the reaction in the least.
I've tried having a discussion on the issue of slavery with the Jehovah's Witnesses that occasionally drop by (even going so far as to make notes on their literature before giving it back), but they're too intellectually cowardly to have an honest discussion. All these people--not just JWs, but every deeply religious person I've attempted this with--ever do is shift the topic or deflect the questions with one of fairly.unbalanced's methods, or the old saw, "We can't understand the mind of God."
I've tried having a discussion on the issue of slavery with the Jehovah's Witnesses that occasionally drop by (even going so far as to make notes on their literature before giving it back), but they're too intellectually cowardly to have an honest discussion. All these people--not just JWs, but every deeply religious person I've attempted this with--ever do is shift the topic or deflect the questions with one of fairly.unbalanced's methods, or the old saw, "We can't understand the mind of God."
36
It was fun to see him verbalize a tiny bit of the stuff we flying monkeys have enjoyed reading from him for so long. That some kids were at all surprised to hear him say it is a reminder how many people aren't curious enough to read even cursorily from the work of someone whose speech they'll be attending.
Great delivery too. Bill Maher does it like that, but with a teleprompter, so Dan wins.
Great delivery too. Bill Maher does it like that, but with a teleprompter, so Dan wins.
32
actually the old testament's dietary guidelines are pretty enlightened advice for the conditions of the day from a public health standpoint.
31
17
and obviously none of the kids clapping are doing it just to go along with the crowd....
Danny's code of behavior is a much better guide to life.
after all, 80% of the people who follow it might not get AIDS....
and obviously none of the kids clapping are doing it just to go along with the crowd....
Danny's code of behavior is a much better guide to life.
after all, 80% of the people who follow it might not get AIDS....
30
@11
"And those kids can run into the hall and go lalala with their finger in their ears all they want, but every single thing he said about the bible is absolutely true."
Or is it ..... ?!?
Dun dun DUNNNNNNN!
Get ready for the "experts" to start posting their "counter arguments" which will follow something like this.
1. The Bible does not really say X. Because the original Hebrew / Greek word (or word order) REALLY means Y but it is often incorrectly interpreted as X by hundreds and hundreds of years of other people who did not really understand ancient Hebrew / Greek. And God / Jesus cannot be bothered to issue an errata sheet.
2. While the Bible really does say X it is only in the context X and Y and Z and is meaningful only in X and Y and Z are so onerous that no one would every do just X because it would also require them to do Y and Z. And God / Jesus knew that no one would ever selectively quote the Bible or quote it out of context.
3. While the Bible does say X it is not applicable today because that was in the Old Testament and Y in the New Testament means that that particular part of the Old Testament is no longer applicable (but all the other parts are).
4. While the Bible does say X and says it in the New Testament that does not mean X because that was a parable and you have interpreted it wrong and Jesus couldn't be bothered to make his parables unambiguous.
5. Claim oppression / bullying / haters-gonna-hate and how you'll pray for them and their sinful prideful wayful ways.
Did I miss any?
"And those kids can run into the hall and go lalala with their finger in their ears all they want, but every single thing he said about the bible is absolutely true."
Or is it ..... ?!?
Dun dun DUNNNNNNN!
Get ready for the "experts" to start posting their "counter arguments" which will follow something like this.
1. The Bible does not really say X. Because the original Hebrew / Greek word (or word order) REALLY means Y but it is often incorrectly interpreted as X by hundreds and hundreds of years of other people who did not really understand ancient Hebrew / Greek. And God / Jesus cannot be bothered to issue an errata sheet.
2. While the Bible really does say X it is only in the context X and Y and Z and is meaningful only in X and Y and Z are so onerous that no one would every do just X because it would also require them to do Y and Z. And God / Jesus knew that no one would ever selectively quote the Bible or quote it out of context.
3. While the Bible does say X it is not applicable today because that was in the Old Testament and Y in the New Testament means that that particular part of the Old Testament is no longer applicable (but all the other parts are).
4. While the Bible does say X and says it in the New Testament that does not mean X because that was a parable and you have interpreted it wrong and Jesus couldn't be bothered to make his parables unambiguous.
5. Claim oppression / bullying / haters-gonna-hate and how you'll pray for them and their sinful prideful wayful ways.
Did I miss any?
29
Bible with Line-Item Veto! That's what the Christo-taliban fascists wield. And Victim-complex deluxe.
28
My god, look at the kids walking out of that speech. What a parade of cowards, fools and homophobes. The Republican party's future stars, no doubt.
25
It's actually kinda cool when stuff like this happens because now everyone will know who the bigots are. Dan barely had to mention anything for these kids to stand up and identify themselves as ignorant assholes. I hope they grow up and embrace some critical thinking skills. Bravo Dan, you put them in their place with grace and eloquence.
24
21
right on!
cause liberal college students NEVER walk out on speakers they disagree with.
And Danny Pussy Ass NEVER wails that certain advocates should not be allowed on TV because they hurt his widdy bidddy feewings......
right on!
cause liberal college students NEVER walk out on speakers they disagree with.
And Danny Pussy Ass NEVER wails that certain advocates should not be allowed on TV because they hurt his widdy bidddy feewings......
23
after reading all these stories about dan today I get a nice email from 'goproud' :
GOProud Condemns Dan Savage’s Anti-Christian Tirade
Jimmy LaSalvia, GOProud Executive Director – “Dan Savage’s outrageous anti-Christian tirade hurts – not helps – the fight for gay rights in this country.”....
wow, the gop must pull a name out of a hat each week and go to town....dan's name shouldn't be in that hat.
GOProud Condemns Dan Savage’s Anti-Christian Tirade
Jimmy LaSalvia, GOProud Executive Director – “Dan Savage’s outrageous anti-Christian tirade hurts – not helps – the fight for gay rights in this country.”....
wow, the gop must pull a name out of a hat each week and go to town....dan's name shouldn't be in that hat.
21
This is a perfect example of why many of us look down on Evangelical Christians as mental light-weights, Dan did not harass anyone, he did not belittle anyone, he didn't even attack belief in God. He did point out that the Bible is a book of mythology, and a very outdated one at that. He was quite right in pointing out that Christians ignore many parts of the same books they justify their homophobia by. Notice how all those Good Christian kids refused to listen to a contrary viewpoint? The instant Dan starts talking about Christians using the Bible to justify bulling, they flee the room, lest they hear facts and reason contradicting their myths. If these kids were not mental light weights, they would have sat there taking notes, so they could rebut him later.
Fortunately, Evangelicals are merely a noisy cluster of denominations, and there are a growing number of churches that recognize that the Bible did, in fact, blow it on human sexuality, just as bad as it blew it on slavery.
Fortunately, Evangelicals are merely a noisy cluster of denominations, and there are a growing number of churches that recognize that the Bible did, in fact, blow it on human sexuality, just as bad as it blew it on slavery.
18
The most AWESOME part is at 3:07 when Dan says:
"I have a right to point out the hypocrisy of people who justify anti-polygamy bigotry by asserting that marriage equality should be extended to gays and no others...."
"I have a right to point out the hypocrisy of people who justify anti-polygamy bigotry by asserting that marriage equality should be extended to gays and no others...."
17
And the thing to remember about the pious walker-outers is that probably a third of them are doing it because their friends are doing it. Another third will get out in the world and discover that religion is a crock - or at least discover that the Bible is a really rotten life guide.
It's that last third you have to feel sorry for - especially the girls in that group. They'll marry some bore like Seattleblahs and throw their life away trying to make him feel like a man because that's what the Bible says to do.
It's that last third you have to feel sorry for - especially the girls in that group. They'll marry some bore like Seattleblahs and throw their life away trying to make him feel like a man because that's what the Bible says to do.
13
Oh, come on. Please stop with the gnashing of teeth over the language. Yes, Dan swears. Deal with it. I've heard worse language from 3rd graders before.
12
Christians are willfully ignorant about their Bible - which was written by patriarchal desert bigots 2000 years ago. The Bible is full of hateful nonsense like...
-- how to beat your slave
-- that parents have a right & even a responsibility to *kill* their recalcitrant sons
-- that a woman who comes to marriage & is not a virgin *must* be stoned to death.
How can any reasonable, thinking person believe in this hateful nonsense, or use the Bible as any kind of guideline for life? According to Christian doctrine, the Bible is the holy word of God - all of it - so Christians are not allowed to pick & choose what to believe ...take it all - all of its bizarre proclamations & fairy tales - or take none of it.
-- how to beat your slave
-- that parents have a right & even a responsibility to *kill* their recalcitrant sons
-- that a woman who comes to marriage & is not a virgin *must* be stoned to death.
How can any reasonable, thinking person believe in this hateful nonsense, or use the Bible as any kind of guideline for life? According to Christian doctrine, the Bible is the holy word of God - all of it - so Christians are not allowed to pick & choose what to believe ...take it all - all of its bizarre proclamations & fairy tales - or take none of it.
11
I heart Dan so much. And those kids can run into the hall and go lalala with their finger in their ears all they want, but every single thing he said about the bible is absolutely true. And calling bullshit, bullshit is no crime.
9
Christians seem to have a very weird understanding of what bullying is. They can belittle and mock a gay kid until he commits suicide, and that's ok because it's just words. However tell them that their Bible has bullshit in it that's pro-slavery, and now you're a bully for pointing out the truth? If you read between the lines in the Citizenlink article, you'll see that the Christian teens actually thought Dan was making that up. They don't realize that their bible is actually pro-slavery because their pastors don't tell them about that part.
8
And would someone tell FOXNews that grey text on a white background is very difficult to read?
Why not black on white? It doesn't cost any more.
Why not black on white? It doesn't cost any more.
5
Dan's right, but that doesn't even matter. It's all about, and only about spin and outrage in a news cycle.
With any luck this one will blow up in their face as people actually see the video clip and think about it. If you're actually going to read any of those articles, post the link to the video in the comments. repeatedly.
With any luck this one will blow up in their face as people actually see the video clip and think about it. If you're actually going to read any of those articles, post the link to the video in the comments. repeatedly.
4
Hey, they deserve a fucking wake up call. If that bothers the bullies, too fucking bad. Christianity has a two thousand year history that is ugly at best. Why? Answer that! Why would hundreds of Christian priests torment and rape thousands and thousands of children in the present day? Making victims is what they have always done. Enough! Stand up to bullies! Don't be bullied back by giving them your power. Keep talking Dan! The more they hate you, the more you get through. Rob them of the children's brains they feed on.
2
read the article earlier today, and just now saw the video. the difference between what dan actually said and the way they make it out in the article is startling. even for these people. remarkable.
(also: i counted a couple of "bullshits." that's what's considered "expletive-ridden"? for fuck's sake.)
(also: i counted a couple of "bullshits." that's what's considered "expletive-ridden"? for fuck's sake.)
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