Wednesday, April 25, 2012

SL Letter of the Day: Good Thing Going

Posted by on Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 5:15 PM

I have a funny question and some need for advice. I had a crush in high school on this guy. When we were in high school we NEVER even talked to each other. When we graduated he found me on Facebook and he texted me out of nowhere and we started texting back and forth. We hungout a handful of time and then one night we just did it: we just had sex. Now every time we see each other it's just crazy wild sex. This sex, DON'T LET ME KID YOU HERE, is the best sex I have EVER had but I worry now that I'm just a booty call and I don't want that. I would love to pursue a relationship with him and I don't know how to approach this subject without freaking him out. I don't want to lose him now that I have him in my life. So what should I do and how should I approach this subject or should I not say anything at all?

Hooked On Hookup

My response after the jump...


First, thank you for not kidding me. I very much prefer not to be kidded, HOH, and your emphatic reassurance that you are not, indeed, kidding me here was very much appreciated.

Okay, here's what you do: keep fucking the guy. Fuck him two or three more times. Then risk having... a conversation about your relationship. And, yes, you're already in a relationship. It's not a serious relationship, it's not the kind of relationship you want to be in all your life, but it's a relationship. Tell the guy that the kind of sexual connection you two have—feel free to pause at this stage of the convo to fuck him one more time—is 1. pretty damn rare and 2. something that can really enhance and strengthen the kind of committed, serious relationship that you aspire to be in one day—maybe with him if he's game, definitely with someone else if he's not.

If he doesn't regard you as relationship material because the sex is too crazyhotcrazy, HOH, encourage him to spend a little time digging around in the "Savage Love" archives. He'll find plenty of examples of relationships—he'll find plenty of examples of marriages—that are falling apart because the sex isn't there. If he sees you as "just a fuck" because the sex is too amazing (caveat: just because it's amazing for you doesn't meant it's amazing or as amazing for him), or if he sees you as damaged/slutty goods because you enjoy sex just as much as he does, well, you tell him from me that one day he'll be divorcing the sexually-reserved woman he married and kicking himself for letting you get away.

Now sexual compatibility isn't everything, of course, but it's a big thing. And if you guys have that going for you, HOH, it would be a real shame not to explore what else you might have going for you.

And one bonus letter...

I hooked up with my now fiance on halloween two years ago thinking it would be a one night stand. LOL. The sex was unbelievable! We exchanged numbers and kept in contact for future quickies and the sex turned into a friendship the friendship turned into a relationship. But because we hooked up sometimes he doubts that he can trust me. He was the only person I've ever had a one-night stand with! I love him so much but can't take him not trusting me. We've been together two years and soon I'm going to be his wife! I wish things could've been different but how else to prove to him I only want to be with him and only him? I never cheated or lied about my past or anything else.

Bride To Be

Don't marry this man.

Don't marry any man who slut-shames you, BTB, and don't marry any man who puts stock in—and emotionally abuses you with—appallingly sexist double standards. Your fiance worries that you can't be trusted because you had a one-night stand? He had a one-night stand too. It was with you, remember? If you can't be trusted because you had a one-night stand, BTB, then your fiance can't be trusted either. Unless...

Your fiance is one of those guys who believes there's one set of rules for women and another for men. And you know what? Those kind of guys make crap boyfriends, worse fiances, and terrible husbands.



Comments (43) RSS

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care bear 1
It is possible that he doesn't have feelings for HOH. I've had booty call relationships with men I haven't had any feelings for. Good sex is important but doesn't necessarily equal serious relationship material. But on the other hand, the relationship I'm in now started with just fucking.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't think the letter writer should just tell this guy that if he's not in a relationship with her (him?) he's making a big mistake and he'll regret it forever. That's a little presumptuous.
Posted by care bear on April 25, 2012 at 5:28 PM · Report this
As for BTB, the dude's projecting. I'd bet $100 he's the one that can't be trusted and is pushing that shit on her. Been through this one. Dump his ass.
Posted by Mike in Olympia on April 25, 2012 at 5:37 PM · Report this
I typically regurgitate much of what I've gleaned from you, Mr. Savage, when put into the unfortunate position of giver of advice.

Just thought I would relate your influence on me.
Posted by Central Scrutinizer on April 25, 2012 at 5:45 PM · Report this
ScienceNerd 4
And typically my comments are often agreements with a previous poster (see @3).
Posted by ScienceNerd on April 25, 2012 at 6:07 PM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 5
The Onion mirrors real life:…
Posted by Urgutha Forka on April 25, 2012 at 6:11 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 6
"But because we hooked up sometimes he doubts that he can trust me."

He doesn't want to marry you. How do people get this far? It's ridiculous.
Posted by undead ayn rand on April 25, 2012 at 6:22 PM · Report this
smajor82 7
BTB, in another life, before I pulled my head from my ass, I was THAT guy - I couldn't trust women because I was untrustworthy. Proceed with caution ...
Posted by smajor82 on April 25, 2012 at 6:22 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 8
@2: Well, yeah, that too.
Posted by undead ayn rand on April 25, 2012 at 6:23 PM · Report this
faithvsfear 9
Also, Bride to be, someone who says they can't trust you is sometimes someone who can't be trusted themselves. Sometimes guilt manifests itself as an inability to trust. The logic is flawed of course, but people sometimes think if they are cheating bastards then everyone must be because why on earth would they cheat if they weren't being cheated on. Alternately his inability to trust you might not be specific to you or the circumstances under which you met. Maybe he has a problem trusting anyone.
Posted by faithvsfear on April 25, 2012 at 6:36 PM · Report this
"...but I worry now that I'm just a booty call ..."

You are. I agree with Dan that you don't always have to be, but it helps to not delude yourself about your starting position.

"We've been together two years and soon I'm going to be his wife!"

Two years too long. Run while you still have legs under you.
Posted by mubhappy on April 25, 2012 at 6:42 PM · Report this
Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In 11
@2 Yep. Been there, done that.
@9 Good analysis. BTB, listen to it. People who can't trust aren't trustworthy.
Posted by Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In on April 25, 2012 at 7:48 PM · Report this
What a shame April isn't August; I could have had such a good time with these two...
Posted by vennominon on April 25, 2012 at 8:12 PM · Report this
But to segue off of advise that says, "Don't let a guy slut-shame you.":

Straight guys and dykes:

Don't let a girl slut-shame you.

You want a full-blown relationship with emotional, intellectual and sexual connection, and she shows any hints of "Holyoke to bed, Smith to wed" (Western Mass joke)? DTMFA.
Posted by DAVIDinKENAI on April 25, 2012 at 8:42 PM · Report this
Does anyone remember that scene in There Will Be Blood where the well explodes and the kid hollers and hollers because he can't reconcile not being able to hear his own screaming, and they wind up slapping him around a little bit to confirm to him he's deaf? Life treats you worse. Life doesn't give you the story of your own hollering-and-deafness like that. On the worst day of your career, you will learn you've been evaluated a third as good as you've been saying you are. However nice they are, your coworkers will have refused to confirm your deafness for however many years into your career. That's how a guy can get herded into being the hollering-and-deaf kid as a lifestyle. That's how "nice people" can hurt you worse than someone who's chicken-shit. There's no defense against it. And with a romantic partner, it's only more severe.

The baseline for respect is validating someone's story. Whatever else the hollering-and-deaf kid is doing, he's giving us his story. But sometimes women refuse to be that hollering-and-deaf kid so severely that they give no story of their own to associate with them. We see this in how Dan frequently gives advice to women to find out what they like sexually, and to tell their partner. Guys aren't like that. A guy should be afraid that years into a relationship, his partner finally develops her story of who they are, and that it has so little to do with his own story of their relationship, he may as well as have been the hollering-and-deaf kid all along.

This isn't to say there isn't slut-shaming. But there's also no defense against people feigning your own deafness, but still holding it against you. He shouldn't do the former to you, just like no one should do the latter to anyone.
Posted by Mike Leung on April 25, 2012 at 8:59 PM · Report this

Sounds like the dude was going through the old high school yearbook, and hitting on girls that he hadn't yet were in the H's or something.

Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on April 25, 2012 at 9:27 PM · Report this
Dan - in the first response, in your haste to hammer away at the "don't let him tell you you're not relationship material!!!" point you've been hammering away at recently, you missed one key piece. (I'm going to assume HOH is female, although I don't see any pronouns, just for convenience. Same goes if HOH is male.)

You need to emphasize that if this guy doesn't want a relationship, SHE SHOULD WANT TO LOSE HIM. She's afraid to speak up because she'd rather settle for having him halfway than going for what she really wants and potentially scaring him out of her life. That's the wrong attitude.

Girl, if this guy is showing signs that he might not be into a relationship, and you're scared of losing him, you need to lose him. If he accepts your offer of a relationship, you got him; otherwise, cut your losses and run. Don't, under any circumstances, keep fucking him if he doesn't at least tell you he'd be open to a relationship.

What worries me is she says: "I don't know how to approach this subject without freaking him out. I don't want to lose him now that I have him in my life." That is the big ol red flag of someone who is willing to be strung along and hurt indefinitely. Don't let that shit into your life.
Posted by dchari on April 25, 2012 at 9:37 PM · Report this
debug 17
HOH seems like she's in her early 20s so no rush on the big "R" relationship label. For better or worse that can freak a guy out at that age.

Want to feel like you're not just a booty call? Then start suggesting dates that aren't all about fucking. Get out of the house, go out to eat, see a movie/play/band, hit a bar and have a drunken discussion (and take a cab home).

If he likes you the non-sex dates will be just as fun and easy as the sex dates.

As for BTB I agree with #2. So obvious. Everybody I know who has been a cheater (or just someone who'd like to cheat but doesn't have the balls) ends up being that person who doesn't trust their spouse. Thieves think everybody steel, cheaters think everybody cheats.
Posted by debug on April 25, 2012 at 9:58 PM · Report this
shurenka 18
Poor BTB, Dan's response was perfect, no one should be slut shamed. Also if there are any lingering issues of trust, a marriage should definitely not proceed.

For HOH, if he doesn't want a relationship, don't try to convince him. Don't try to manipulate him. 16 is right. If she scares him away by bringing up a relationship, she's the better for it, for not getting attached to someone who couldn't give her what she needed, in return.
Posted by shurenka on April 25, 2012 at 10:37 PM · Report this
I Hate Screen Names 19
Completely agree with the advice to BTB.

Every girlfriend who accused me of being unfaithful-- every one -- cheated on me. (Since I've never cheated, I've never given an emotionally healthy person reason to suspect me of cheating.) CPOS are simply incapable of comprehending the ability to not cheat, and thus suspect everybody.
Posted by I Hate Screen Names on April 25, 2012 at 11:14 PM · Report this
@16 - Yes. Your advice should replace Dan's as the official response to HOH's question.

BTB - If he's treating you like this now, what shit will he try to pull after the wedding, or after 5 or 10 years of marriage? Get out now and find someone who doesn't force you to beg for his trust.
Posted by Amanda on April 26, 2012 at 12:27 AM · Report this
1- Incredibly Hot Sex™ is incredibly hot.
right up to the moment it no longer is.
but don't worry, Incredibly Hot Sex™ with whom/whatever you currently are infatuated with is a 100%Safe&Foolproof foundation upon which to build a lifelong relationship.....

2- Cheaters are cheaters. you. him.
expect it and you will not be disappointed.
Posted by whores have more fun. embrace it. on April 26, 2012 at 1:47 AM · Report this
@16 and @20: I think Dan is simply encouraging a few more "DON'T LET ME KID YOU... the best sex I have ever had" experiences, to a person who sounds a bit young and naive, and should probably not be forcing long-term relationships with anyone just yet, let alone former high school crushes that never spoke to you until years later on facebook. At least not until you've achieved some emotional distance and maturity.
Posted by Sorry, I'm anonymous on April 26, 2012 at 2:07 AM · Report this
1. Why is it that the people least affected by something, in your case "incredibly Hot Sex", are often the ones so vehemently against it?
2. Now I get it, good luck finding happiness with your narrow world view! Troll on!
Posted by Sorry, I'm a troll too on April 26, 2012 at 2:49 AM · Report this
I'm gonna jump in to point out that, while BTB's fiance might well be a projecting CPOS and misogynist, an inability to trust is hardly a red flag in and of itself. People have been through different experiences, and someone who has had a mostly functional life is going to be a lot more trusting than someone who has been serially abused and betrayed by the people in their lives.

Mostly, though, I'm incensed by the idea, which the LW has apparently internalized, that a willingness to have casual sex when single has anything to do with the ability to keep a monogamous commitment. Because clearly someone who would have sex for the sake of sex, as in a hookup, is an uncontrollable horn-dog and completely untrustworthy. Blekh. I can't believe Dan didn't yell about this more. She does need to DTMFA, but more importantly, she needs to stop believing this shit herself ("it was only this one time!").
Posted by aka90 on April 26, 2012 at 4:23 AM · Report this
The thing about BTB's fiance is that not only may he have different ideals for men than for women, he probably has different ideals for "women I fuck" and "women I marry." Which as we all know will be disastrous long-term.
Posted by shefightslikeagirl on April 26, 2012 at 7:00 AM · Report this
Bad advice all around imho.

Hoh should not try to have some heart-to-heart conversation about the relationship. That's too intimidating for the guy, even with the extra hook-ups. Instead, Hoh should slowly start trying to get him to do more and more things with outside of the bedroom. Eventually they will figure out they are good friends that also fuck. Then the heart-to-heart will happen. He might even bring it up.

#2 is the case where BTB should have a heart-to-heart. People are not perfect, and deserve a chance to change. Give the guy a chance to re-evaluate his double-standard.
Posted by Get Real on April 26, 2012 at 8:20 AM · Report this
you are so right.
everybody knows that promiscuous premarital sex is the best predictor of monogamous fidelity.
Posted by whores make the best wives..... on April 26, 2012 at 8:21 AM · Report this
Fortunate 28
My take on BTBs situation is that the guy she is about to marry can't be trusted, and that's why he doesn't trust her.

He is lacking in trust for her because she is, what in his eyes? Just like him. If he is a cheating piece of crap and sees his past as a sign of that then he is going to assume all people with a similar past are just as much of a cheating piece of crap.

Run from this guy. He is projecting his own crap onto you.

Both me and my partner were pretty slutty before we met. But we have never had problems trusting each other. We both know that despite that we were pretty much sluts before we met that we are still trust worthy. I know that I can be trusted despite how much I may have slept around before we met, and so I know that the fact that he slept around a bit before we met doesn't mean that he can't be trusted.

It's more than just a double standard this guy is displaying. It is an indication that he thinks that people who have had one night stands can't be trusted. Why? Obviously because he had one night stands and he knows he can't be trusted, and so thinks everyone who had one night stands can't be trusted either.
Posted by Fortunate on April 26, 2012 at 8:57 AM · Report this
luke1249 29
Unfortunately, BTB is right to worry. It's just biology/evolution. No amount of slut-walks etc. will fix that. She can dump this guy if she wants, but the next guy she enters a relationship with had better not be a hookup, because he's going to worry, too.
Posted by luke1249 on April 26, 2012 at 10:22 AM · Report this
@29: I see you, like BTB's boyfriend, apparently have confused willingness to jump into bed on the first date with willingness to jump into bed even though you are committed to someone else. There is no evidence in the letter that either of them was already attached at the time they had their one night stand, in which case it isn't cheating. There is also no evidence that she is incapable of honoring commitments once an attachment is formed.

If he doesn't trust her because he thinks she's "easy," he's a hypocritical douchebag. He is exactly as "easy" as she is. If he thinks that easy is the same thing as untrustworthy, he is projecting, and she is probably the one at more risk of being cheated on.
Posted by avast2006 on April 26, 2012 at 11:01 AM · Report this
For HOH I think Dan's advice is off and you need to make slow progress to the kind of relationship you want. If you go to a new fuck buddy with the R-bomb (relationship) you could scare them off. Much better next time to suggest something else like- "hey l'm making tacos come by for a bite" and fuck him after, or "hey let's go to the beach and fuck in the water" iow, tack on something with the sex and perhaps if he sees that he enjoys being with you when you're not having sex, you can slowly build it up to being more of a 'real' relationship..

as per btb, how do we know he sometimes doesn't trust her because they started as a one night stand (other than her use of 'because'..? does he explicitly state this? or is she/dan/us just assuming this? If they're right, then yes, he's a double-standard douche, but before DTMFA at least have one direct talk and say that the double standard is bullshit and he needs to stop if you're going to be together. If, however, this is just an assumption, then she's better having a direct "why do you feel like sometimes you can't trust me" and understand where this behavior is coming from. Maybe he has legitimate reason to have doubts but we don't know. Maybe he doesn't but regardless from what she writes, it's at least having one direct, call-him-on-it discussion before determining DTMFA...
Posted by freshnycman on April 26, 2012 at 11:01 AM · Report this
lizlemon 32
I probably should read all the comments before adding my own, but I am just....'seething' isn't the quite the right word but 'upset' doesn't cut it, at BTB's douche of a fiance. Seriously dude? Get that misogynistic bullshit out of here. She deserves better than to be constantly proving to her finance how faithful she is. I'm sure there is more to their story than everything she wrote in that tiny paragraph, but I have an extremely low tolerance for people (dudes) who apply the double standard to women. Get the fuck over yourself.
Posted by lizlemon on April 26, 2012 at 11:13 AM · Report this
Alanmt 33
"Sometimes he doubts that he can trust me".

I tend to think she should dump him. But at the very least, she needs to put the wedding on hold. If he had these doubts, he shouldn't have proposed or agreed to marry her. She should not marry someone who doesn't trust her. He shouldn't marry someone he doesn't trust. If she gives him a chance, he needs to decide either:

a. I am going to trust her; or

b. I do not trust her.

If the answer is A, he can marry her, but he can never bring up this issue with her again and he must suppress these doubts when they arise. If the answer is B, he breaks it off. He is emotionally immature and insecure, and he may be controlling or assholish as well. Even if his lack of trust stems from a previous bad experience, it does not excuse him for raising this issue or marrying her if he has doubts. His doubts are not fair, are hypocritical, and are lame.
Posted by Alanmt on April 26, 2012 at 12:20 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 34
@24: "an inability to trust is hardly a red flag in and of itself"

Even if it's not a red flag that he's a cheater, it's a red flag that you shouldn't get married to that person.

It's only going to get worse post-marriage.
Posted by undead ayn rand on April 26, 2012 at 12:59 PM · Report this
I think it's premature to say "don't marry this man." Isn't it worth giving him Dan's response to ponder? Or at least having a conversation along the lines of "y'know, you and I did exactly the same thing, aren't you worried that I might not be able to trust YOU?"

His response would be enlightening. A guy who is able and willing to examine his prejudices and change his mind is very much marriage material. If you have this conversation (in a relaxed way) and he comes back with any kind of bullshit, then Dan might be right.
Posted by aimeeday1972 on April 26, 2012 at 2:10 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 36
@35: "His response would be enlightening. A guy who is able and willing to examine his prejudices and change his mind is very much marriage material."

A guy who gets engaged and on the cusp of marriage to someone he actively doesn't trust is not.
Posted by undead ayn rand on April 26, 2012 at 2:20 PM · Report this
venomlash 37
@35: this
@21: Riddle me this, Alleged. If two single people spend a night fucking each other, who is being cheated on, hm?
Posted by venomlash on April 26, 2012 at 2:51 PM · Report this

When I was living in Amherst, it was "Smith to bed, Holyoke to wed".

BTB, sorry but you shouldn't consider putting up with slut shaming from anyone you would want to stay with. The person you should trust the most is using his own relationship with you against you. Flee.

Posted by Married in MA on April 26, 2012 at 5:12 PM · Report this
@37: Everyone! They're cheating on YOU. Both of them. And their moms. And kittens. Also sea anemones.

Elsewhere, I do not understand this urge to protect the poor delicate young 20-something male's fragile psyche by avoiding the word relationship. If you can't talk about the relationship you're having with your fuck buddy or no-sex-yet 15 year old girlfriend or all-night online scrabble partner, then you are probably too immature to be having those things. I'm not saying the talk might not be poorly conducted and turn into "but we're moving toward marriage, right?" or something else horrible. I'm not saying that the idea of just asking him for some non-sex (or not only sex) outings without the big talk is a bad strategy. But I just can't get on board with "You poor baby! Someone used the R-word in front of you!"
Posted by IPJ on April 26, 2012 at 5:54 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 40
@39: Sounds like they're more concerned about damaging a relationship that exists only in their head. Actually addressing it would cause the fantasy to poof.
Posted by undead ayn rand on April 26, 2012 at 6:31 PM · Report this
I just like to toss this into the mix... If they are engaged it wasn't a one night stand! One night usually means one night, not two years!
Posted by Ajisaokay on April 27, 2012 at 5:04 AM · Report this
For HOH-

I was you, at age 20, it was indeed the BEST sex of my life at that point and *in a way* the best since. The part about it that I haven't been able to top? 100% pure years-confined adolescent lust for that guy, we had nothing else in common, or at least not as far as I knew. We didn't talk in high school and we didn't talk while we were hooking up either. After several ridiculously fun entanglements I caught my breath and started to wonder if this is all we had. And... yes, that was it, and the lack of communication was unfortunately a big part of what sustained the excitement. I've had better, deeper, more heady and more meaningful sex since with partners by connecting in a more mature way. But still no regrets and no pretending it wasn't the most exciting hookups ever.

That said, you have nothing to lose by asking your dude your question out loud. Something will change eventually, no matter what, so you should just step up and give it a shot. Just don't be surprised if that's the end of it all, it's still worth it. Like Dan says you might want to enjoy the sex while you can before taking the plunge.

And for the record, I agree with Dan about hookups having real relationship potential. My husband and I met one day, hooked up the next day after a night out, and a real relationship proceeded to unfold. However we were closer to 30 than 20 by the time that happened and the communication was real from hour 1, and that makes the sex and the life best.
Posted by impatient on April 30, 2012 at 10:14 PM · Report this
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