Friday, April 13, 2012
Hetero Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 10:20 AM
A Strongsville man walked into a restaurant Thursday night and shot to death his wife and a daughter, who was celebrating her 10th birthday, police Chief Scott Mielke said Friday morning. A second daughter was injured in the attack, but survived.
28
everytime i see "every child deserves a mother and a father" now i just mash the fucking scroll wheel on my mouse christ i can't handle these fucking stories anymore i got enough depression you ASSHOLES
26
This happened not far from me. I know the neighborhood; my grandmother lives not five minutes away. It's an area with lots of chain restaurants and some shopping. I don't know why it matters that it was such a busy area and not more remote but it does to me. These things always seem to happen "somewhere else." Except when it doesn't. It's a deeply disturbing story and my condolences go to those affected.
24
Yeah, BULLSHIT to the "if she had a handgun" argument. You guys have all done an excellent job of describing why that is a terrible conclusion (further fatalities is the biggest, I think), and also, it is highly uninformed to believe that having a gun makes one safer. Keeping a gun in the house, for instance, is quite a big predictor of someone in your house being shot (and that "someone" is not likely an intruder; more like a family member or yourowndamnself).
And man, shooting a gun is tough! I'm lucky if I can hit a tree from a reasonable distance after four or five shots. It's not instinctive, you should take safety courses and practice often to be a good shot, and not that many people do it. Also, consider what you are saying: it would have been better for two young girls see their father approach them with a handgun at a GD Cracker barrel and then watch their mother gun him down with her own handgun, which she just keeps on her--when? Always? They could've easily shot themselves well ahead of time on accident if she always kept a gun on her, and it would be far more likely than her saving her kids during that incident. I agree it would have been *better,* but still really fucking shitty and traumatic and also could've ended faaar worse. What really could've been good is if he hadn't had a gun in the first place, but damn that 2nd Amendment amiright.
But all this hypothetical shit is, well, shit. If I had won the lottery I wouldn't be in debt. If I had not ordered that fifth drink I wouldn't have made that embarrassing phone call to my ex. If I would've visited my Dad that day, maybe he wouldn't have overdosed. That's not what happened. Get that 10 year old all the love and support the whole world can muster; show her the world can still be kind and beautiful and that she has some good things to look forward to. And of course, on another line (much more to Dan's point): let the gays marry and adopt/surrogate, because the straights certainly don't all have it down.
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And man, shooting a gun is tough! I'm lucky if I can hit a tree from a reasonable distance after four or five shots. It's not instinctive, you should take safety courses and practice often to be a good shot, and not that many people do it. Also, consider what you are saying: it would have been better for two young girls see their father approach them with a handgun at a GD Cracker barrel and then watch their mother gun him down with her own handgun, which she just keeps on her--when? Always? They could've easily shot themselves well ahead of time on accident if she always kept a gun on her, and it would be far more likely than her saving her kids during that incident. I agree it would have been *better,* but still really fucking shitty and traumatic and also could've ended faaar worse. What really could've been good is if he hadn't had a gun in the first place, but damn that 2nd Amendment amiright.
But all this hypothetical shit is, well, shit. If I had won the lottery I wouldn't be in debt. If I had not ordered that fifth drink I wouldn't have made that embarrassing phone call to my ex. If I would've visited my Dad that day, maybe he wouldn't have overdosed. That's not what happened. Get that 10 year old all the love and support the whole world can muster; show her the world can still be kind and beautiful and that she has some good things to look forward to. And of course, on another line (much more to Dan's point): let the gays marry and adopt/surrogate, because the straights certainly don't all have it down.
23
@9 - This scenario sounds pretty similar to when those four Pierce County cops were gunned down in a coffee shop.
Oh, wait - all FOUR of them had handguns.
Oh, wait - all FOUR of them had handguns.
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Of course there are some individuals who believe that they are above the law, and so no amount of arrest records or police interventions or a restraining order will stop such a person. In such a case, leaving is done in secrecy and silence.
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I think police are becoming better with regard to domestic violence, but have not always been so. So, no. Part of the process of leaving involves having paper work and documentation for the courts, some women already have the restraining order going into effect when they leave.
20
Just out of curiosity,
Would it be a good idea to inform the police if you were sneaking away with the kids? How are police trained to deal/help with things?
Peace.
Would it be a good idea to inform the police if you were sneaking away with the kids? How are police trained to deal/help with things?
Peace.
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@ 10,
I never advise notification. I also don't advise using house phones, computers, cell phones. Really anything that has GPS or can be tapped. We actually have plan sheets with step-by-step guidelines and lists of documents needed. It is a multi week to month process for some. I've helped move women and kids to safe locations. The kids are never told, because they can let things slip. The risk of violence is outstandingly high when leaving.
I'm sorry for your loss.
Take care.
I never advise notification. I also don't advise using house phones, computers, cell phones. Really anything that has GPS or can be tapped. We actually have plan sheets with step-by-step guidelines and lists of documents needed. It is a multi week to month process for some. I've helped move women and kids to safe locations. The kids are never told, because they can let things slip. The risk of violence is outstandingly high when leaving.
I'm sorry for your loss.
Take care.
18
The whole "if she had a gun it would have turned out differently" scenario presupposes some things that are by no means assured. That she knew how to use it, and had the presence of mind to do so. That he wouldn't just take it away from her. That the whole thing wouldn't turn into some insane shootout with many bystanders also getting killed.
If you're gonna play "what if" you can't just go "what if everything goes exactly the way I'd imagine if life fit my fantasy ideal".
If you're gonna play "what if" you can't just go "what if everything goes exactly the way I'd imagine if life fit my fantasy ideal".
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@16 The domestic violence counselors I've dealt with strongly suggest leaving without notice or warning. Thank you for sharing this valuable information. The more people who know this, the fewer victims of people like Kevin Allen and Louis Chen there would be.
16
The domestic violence counselors I've dealt with strongly suggest leaving without notice or warning. For one thing (and I can say this from experience), if you try to leave the presence of an abuser with a "Fine, I'm leaving!", they will not allow you to leave. Whether it takes threatening to kill you, harm a child, burn the house down, empty the checking account, or kill themselves, they'll do it. Or at least threaten it. And there's no particular reason why they shouldn't resort to violence. Reporting rates are low; so are conviction rates; and until very recently, the general public turns a blind eye.
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@12: yes, many people think crime would fizzle out if everyone carried. @9 is an example. simplicity is appealing. some 2nd amendment absolutists will cite our historically low violent crime levels & claim or imply causation with increased levels of CC.
but what is the rate of spouse murders, familycides or amoklauf killings? has that abated?
but what is the rate of spouse murders, familycides or amoklauf killings? has that abated?
14
@10,
I bet many domestic violence counselors would have advised her to just leave and find a safe place without notifying him. But who knows if she even talked to one.
I bet many domestic violence counselors would have advised her to just leave and find a safe place without notifying him. But who knows if she even talked to one.
12
@9 I dislike the "if only [insert blank] had a handgun then [insert blank] wouldn't have happen" arguement, because it completely sidesteps the REAL discussions we could be having about WHY people think shooting their estranged spouses and children is a logical idea in the first place, if we have the necessary means of mediation in place for people going through nasty divorces, encouraging prevention of domestic assults like these, and etc. Even just promoting the idea that people close to people on the verge of snapping should go to the police if they have any suspiscions (just like they started telling teens after Columbine) would probably be a good step. It just seems like whenever a tricky family situation is at the heart of a crime we tend to accept it as a fact of life and carry on, without considering if there's a way to discourage anyone from commiting similar crimes.The fact that this is so ridiculously common should make us concerned about the causes behind these incidents, NOT about whether everyone in the country should be packing 24/7. Honestly, does anyone really think crime would fizzle out if everyone was carrying a firearm?
10
I'm not into what-if scenarios as a rule, but wonder, do domestic violence counselors advise victims to make a plan and just leave without announcing one's doing so? Is it more likely for a spouse or partner to leave the other if the departure happens before the announcement? Not blaming the victim here: two of my cousins were shot to death by the spouse of one of them, and I don't know if she just left without saying anything or if she announced.
This is relevant as in the linked article it is mentioned that Mrs. Allen telephoned emergency a minute before she was shot, and that she had announced to her husband she was leaving him.
This is relevant as in the linked article it is mentioned that Mrs. Allen telephoned emergency a minute before she was shot, and that she had announced to her husband she was leaving him.
9
Actually, if the wife had a handgun things might have gone differently. She could have saved herself and her daughter.
6
Wow, addition of Childhaven link is brilliant! And everyone, remember to order your boxed lunches for Childhaven next week. $17 is a bit pricey for a delivered box lunch, but it's for a great cause. http://www.childhaven.org/how-you-can-he…
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Deceased daughter: 10. Surviving daughter: 10. So, twins, I guess. Shit.
Cracker Barrel restaurant. Huh.
Cracker Barrel restaurant. Huh.
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Thank you, Dan. The story was tragic, but the inclusion of the link to Childhaven brought on tears.
Donation made.
Donation made.
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