Monday, February 13, 2012
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Pill The Homos!
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 2:07 PM
I'm not going to make any pretenses about it: I am a man who thinks homosexuality is wrong and I don't like homosexuals. Your continued assertion that it is not a choice is, fundamentally, devoid of a reasonable level of evidence. However, how do you defend yourself in light of the following? There are homos who will state something to the following effect: "If I could take a pill that would make me heterosexual, I wouldn't take it!" In other words, even if science could give you the option to change, you would still choose homosexuality! Since this seems to be the prevailing view of all homosexuals, why would I possibly be wrong to hate and despise the likes of you?
Curious To Know
My response after the jump...
··················
I'm going to set aside the whole you-choo-choo-choosing-not-to-take-an-imaginary-pill-that-would-change-your-sexual-orientation-proves-that-you-chose-your-sexual-orientation-in-the-first-place brain teaser, CTK, and skip to your question: why is it wrong to hate and despise gay people?
Gee, let me see.
We're not hurting anyone, for starters. Your hatred isn't going to convince gay men to give up dick, convince lesbians to give up pussy, or convince bisexual to give up the sample platter. And it's not going to convince any of us to take pills that 1. don't exist and 2. wouldn't tempt us if they did. And finally, CTK, you're gonna hurt your brainz if you keep coming up with synapse-strainers like that magic-pill-that-turns-you-straight-and-wins-me-the-argument conundrum.
I'll let my readers come up with other reasons why you shouldn't hate and despise us. But don't delude yourself: your hatred doesn't concern us that much. You can stomp your feet and hate us soooooooo hard and we're going to go right on being queer.
And here's a whole book full of reasonable evidence that sexual orientation is not a choice.
5
"If you could take a pill that would make you a completely different person than you are right now, with the result being that I would like you better, why wouldn't you take it? It's like you're choosing to annoy me!"
6
We get hung up on the "is gay a choice" argument when we really need to ask ourselves why the fuck it matters. Why does a choice of who one fucks any business? So what if a dude chooses to fuck another dude and likes it. It doesn't change the fact that he's fucking another dude and it doesn't change the fact that he likes it and it doesn't change the fact that NONE OF THAT MATTERS AT ALL TO ANYONE ELSE.
And that's why you you shouldn't hate gays, CTK. Because who people fuck or why is none of your goddamn business.
And that's why you you shouldn't hate gays, CTK. Because who people fuck or why is none of your goddamn business.
7
I have green eyes. If I could take a pill to give me hazel or grey or blue or brown eyes, I wouldn't take it. Why? Because I like being who I am sans alteration.
@4: Nah, Seattleblues is probably still too mad to articulate anything other than a rant about how fags and dykes are tearing down civilization and ruining his vacation.
@4: Nah, Seattleblues is probably still too mad to articulate anything other than a rant about how fags and dykes are tearing down civilization and ruining his vacation.
8
Because it is a waste of time and energy to hate and despise anything. If you really must hate, choose something that is actually despicable. Hating homosexuals is like hating left-handers or people with curly hair or accountants.
9
What a stupid Letter Writer. Is he for real?
If there was a pill that could change me from a Black female into a White female, I wouldn't take it. Does that give racists the right to hate me because I'm Black?
SIGH.
If there was a pill that could change me from a Black female into a White female, I wouldn't take it. Does that give racists the right to hate me because I'm Black?
SIGH.
10
Because placing onesself in a chemical "closet" to avoid having hate thrown in your face is still an unnecessary workaround.
11
@6 Yeah, the choice question (and the well-meaning "born this way" response) rests on the assumption that being a homo is wrong. The people who feel the need to bash somebody who's not like them (and are prevented by their authoritarian mindset from going after the real oppressors) are the ones who need to look in the mirror and ask themselves why they're choosing to persecute a category of people who aren't hurting anybody with their behavior.
14
The writer sounds as if he enjoys being hatey-despisey, so if all the gay disappeared tomorrow I think he'd find another focus pretty fast, though I imagine he already has a pretty long list going already.
15
A better question, is why does the letter writer want to hate and despise people in the first place?
16
Shoulda asked him if he would take a pill that'd make him gay. I heard it's a suppository and about the size of his head.
17
Why does it matter? In what way does the existence of homosexuality hurt the LW? Not at all. It seems like a lot of negative energy expended over something beyond the LW's control. I'd think (hope!) there were a lot more interseting things in his life he could be spending that time on. This concentration on the affairs of others just strikes me as pathetic.
Of course, maybe LW /wants/ to look pathetic? Nothing better to do than hate on the homos? So you don't have to think about yourself? What?
Of course, maybe LW /wants/ to look pathetic? Nothing better to do than hate on the homos? So you don't have to think about yourself? What?
18
I'm not going to make any pretenses about it: I am a man who thinks intolerant asshats are wrong and I don't like intolerant asshats. Your continued assertion that it is not a choice is, fundamentally, devoid of a reasonable level of evidence. However, how do you defend yourself in light of the following? There are asshats who will state something to the following effect: "If I could read some books and talk to some people that would make me more open minded, I wouldn't read them!" In other words, even if knowledge could give you the option to change, you would still choose intolerant asshatery! Since this seems to be the prevailing view of all intolerant asshats, why would I possibly be wrong to hate and despise the likes of you?
20
Sounds like someone who (deep down) would like to be gay, but "chooses" to be married to an unsuspecting woman, or stays single -- either way, he's bitter about it. The hate you see in his letter is self-hatred...
21
What always bugs me about the "pill to make you straight" scenario (yes, I've heard it before), is that it implies that gayness is a "problem" that can be "cured." homosexuality is perfectly natural, found throughout the animal kingdom, hardly a malfunction which needs to be fixed.
24
It's actually kind of refreshing to see a bigot who's open about it and not hiding behind some shit jebus supposedly said.
Not that I like him any more than the other mentally challenged hatemongers out there, but at least he's out of the bigot-closet.
Not that I like him any more than the other mentally challenged hatemongers out there, but at least he's out of the bigot-closet.
25
I wouldn't choose to change because I like myself and I don't think being gay is a flaw. And I don't care if you hate me. This was a stupid question.
27
What kindergarten did this OP go to? Was he out sick the day they taught everyone how hating and despising in general makes one a bad person?
28
So, if you could take a pill that would make you gay, you wouldn't either, right? That means your heterosexuality was a choice!
Fuck-noggin.
Fuck-noggin.
29
The letter writer's continued assertion that hatred of homos is not a choice, but the only way to be, is devoid of a reasonable level of evidence. If there were a pill the letter writer could take to make him/her not hate homosexuals, would they take it? If not, then why would I possibly be wrong to hate and despise the likes of him/her for choosing to be so intolerant?
30
How about treat others as you wish to be treated? I know it's a crazy thought because that would mean you would have to actually deal with your feelings of hatred toward those who have caused you no harm. Why is the LW so hateful? It's actually quite sad.
31
CTK deserved the smack down he got, but Dan, this SLLotD feels like a wasted opportunity. Your refusal to answer the question about the imaginary pill is only going to make the loser think he stumped you, when really he handed you the perfect opportunity to talk about double standards/logical presupposition fail/the dangers of making sexuality subject to science/the Cynthia Nixon kerfuffle, etc. So many good things could have been said! Maybe they'd make a good podcast rant instead?
32
For one thing, even if it were a choice hating someone for just making a choice that doesn't effect anyone else is, well, hateful. It's just bigotry. Is it OK to hate someone for being a Christian and no other reason? Being a Christian IS a choice, yet let anyone say they hate Christians just for being Christians and Christians everywhere condemn that.
So aside from the fact that hating someone just for making a choice you wouldn't make yourself is just a plain old asshole thing to do, here is the other bit.
I wouldn't choose to take the anti homo pill because like it or not, our sexuality is a fundamental aspect of who we are. It colors our lives in a multitude of ways. If I chose to alter my sexuality willingly I would, in essence, be altering a fundamental aspect of what makes me who I am. And since I rather like who I am that is not something I am willing to do.
Also, since I have spent almost two decades in a relationship with another man, and we have built a life and family together, I am not willing to give up my life, my family, my home and all the good things in my life I have to work hard to achieve despite oppositions from narrow minded bigots just to appease the sensibilities of those same narrow minded bigots.
So go ahead and hate us. I expect nothing less from the bigots of the world. But don't cry foul when, after you use your religion as a thinly veiled excuse for your own insecurity fueled hate, we turn around and don't speak kindly about your religion.
So hate away, and then go fuck yourself.
So aside from the fact that hating someone just for making a choice you wouldn't make yourself is just a plain old asshole thing to do, here is the other bit.
I wouldn't choose to take the anti homo pill because like it or not, our sexuality is a fundamental aspect of who we are. It colors our lives in a multitude of ways. If I chose to alter my sexuality willingly I would, in essence, be altering a fundamental aspect of what makes me who I am. And since I rather like who I am that is not something I am willing to do.
Also, since I have spent almost two decades in a relationship with another man, and we have built a life and family together, I am not willing to give up my life, my family, my home and all the good things in my life I have to work hard to achieve despite oppositions from narrow minded bigots just to appease the sensibilities of those same narrow minded bigots.
So go ahead and hate us. I expect nothing less from the bigots of the world. But don't cry foul when, after you use your religion as a thinly veiled excuse for your own insecurity fueled hate, we turn around and don't speak kindly about your religion.
So hate away, and then go fuck yourself.
34
Funny, there have been times when I've wished, on behalf of my sex life, that there was a pill to make me homo.
@5: Yes.
@5: Yes.
35
just by the bye, the main reason it 'matters' to anyone else whether gay is a choice or not is because it matters *to people who believe that god hath decreed it wrong*. it doesn't really matter to us non-religious folk, other than as a subject of scientific curiosity. but if you really are born that way--and it is pretty obvious that a lot of people are--and you believe in god, then god made you that way. and why would he (surely he) do that if it is wrong?
it may not matter to people who don't have a problem with homosexuality, but boy, does it ever screw with the ones who do. and that alone is enough reason to keep pointing it out.
it may not matter to people who don't have a problem with homosexuality, but boy, does it ever screw with the ones who do. and that alone is enough reason to keep pointing it out.
36
I can't shake the feeling that all of these people talking about "choice" in sexual orientation are bi (or not 100% as straight as they'd like to claim). If you take this pill, it will make you want something you don't want now but make you dislike something that you like right now. What straight guy would come up with something like that? That implies that you being straight is a choice.
37
I have a reason why he shouldn't hate and despise us -- it leads to gay teen suicides.
And given that it's hard not to notice that hatred towards gay teens leads to them dying, I honestly think they want them dead.
Which would make the LW a far, far worse person than a guy who likes cock, a woman who likes pussy, or the bisexual who likes everything, (or Jack Harkness).
And given that it's hard not to notice that hatred towards gay teens leads to them dying, I honestly think they want them dead.
Which would make the LW a far, far worse person than a guy who likes cock, a woman who likes pussy, or the bisexual who likes everything, (or Jack Harkness).
38
@35
Here's the thing about the "is gay a choice" argument: Ultimately, it really doesn't matter to either camp. If being gay is not a choice the religious nut jobs are just going to say, "Well, you need to suppress your urges because GOD and SIN" and if gay is a choice gay people are just going to shrug and say, "Well, then I choose to be gay."
Here's the thing about the "is gay a choice" argument: Ultimately, it really doesn't matter to either camp. If being gay is not a choice the religious nut jobs are just going to say, "Well, you need to suppress your urges because GOD and SIN" and if gay is a choice gay people are just going to shrug and say, "Well, then I choose to be gay."
40
Zokay, here goes (can't resist engaging the trolls when given an explicit invitation by the blogger):
See Dan's linked list of evidence.
The fact that plenty of gay people think being gay isn't ONLY not bad, but is in fact really great does not mean that it IS a choice. What they're saying is that even if it WERE a choice (we're talking about attraction here - behavior IS a choice, though I wouldn't say that it's reasonable to ask gay people to avoid their preferred sexual behaviors simply because you think they're icky, CTK), they wouldn't choose to be straight. But it's not a choice, so it doesn't really matter.
You're starting with the assumption that homosexuality is bad. A majority of people in USA disagree with you on that. You're arguing a tautology here: "If one should generally hate gay people, then the only reason to NOT hate gay people is if they have no choice about being gay. If they were to have a choice and still choose to be gay, there is no reason to not hate them." Your conclusion that you should hate gay people rests entirely on the premise that you should hate gay people. That's not an argument, it's a meaningless logical equivalence. Since we contest your premise, the entire exercise is a pointless argument by non sequitur.
The real question you should consider is: What possible threat do gay people represent to you, CTK? Men have been fucking other men and women have been fucking other women as long as people have existed, and if Yahweh hasn't seen fit to wipe humanity off the globe in that time because of gay sex, it makes little sense for him to do it in your lifetime, simply as a matter of probability. So, again, what possible threat do you face? None, CTK; gay people represent no threat to you, and your hatred has no rational basis whatsoever, even if we grant the premise that Yahweh exists in a form similar to that described in the Christian Bible, Torah, or Koran.
More...
Your continued assertion that it is not a choice is, fundamentally, devoid of a reasonable level of evidence.
See Dan's linked list of evidence.
There are homos who will state something to the following effect: "If I could take a pill that would make me heterosexual, I wouldn't take it!" In other words, even if science could give you the option to change, you would still choose homosexuality!
The fact that plenty of gay people think being gay isn't ONLY not bad, but is in fact really great does not mean that it IS a choice. What they're saying is that even if it WERE a choice (we're talking about attraction here - behavior IS a choice, though I wouldn't say that it's reasonable to ask gay people to avoid their preferred sexual behaviors simply because you think they're icky, CTK), they wouldn't choose to be straight. But it's not a choice, so it doesn't really matter.
Since this seems to be the prevailing view of all homosexuals, why would I possibly be wrong to hate and despise the likes of you?
You're starting with the assumption that homosexuality is bad. A majority of people in USA disagree with you on that. You're arguing a tautology here: "If one should generally hate gay people, then the only reason to NOT hate gay people is if they have no choice about being gay. If they were to have a choice and still choose to be gay, there is no reason to not hate them." Your conclusion that you should hate gay people rests entirely on the premise that you should hate gay people. That's not an argument, it's a meaningless logical equivalence. Since we contest your premise, the entire exercise is a pointless argument by non sequitur.
The real question you should consider is: What possible threat do gay people represent to you, CTK? Men have been fucking other men and women have been fucking other women as long as people have existed, and if Yahweh hasn't seen fit to wipe humanity off the globe in that time because of gay sex, it makes little sense for him to do it in your lifetime, simply as a matter of probability. So, again, what possible threat do you face? None, CTK; gay people represent no threat to you, and your hatred has no rational basis whatsoever, even if we grant the premise that Yahweh exists in a form similar to that described in the Christian Bible, Torah, or Koran.
41
Anyway, I've never been a fan of the choose to be or inborn theories of being straight or gay as "reasons" to grant (or not) rights, etc. Sure, the fact that I'm bisexual tends to make me cranky about either side of this argument, but here is the thing:
Religion is a choice, being black is not a choice and yet both are protected, so clearly, it DOES NOT MATTER from a legal standpoint whether or not not-straight people get rights as well! So why is it at all necessary to appeal either way to justify rights OR to justify hatred.
Per my previous comments, I still think this LW is just plain pathetic. So many better things to do in life than hate. What a waste of time. What a waste of a life.
Religion is a choice, being black is not a choice and yet both are protected, so clearly, it DOES NOT MATTER from a legal standpoint whether or not not-straight people get rights as well! So why is it at all necessary to appeal either way to justify rights OR to justify hatred.
Per my previous comments, I still think this LW is just plain pathetic. So many better things to do in life than hate. What a waste of time. What a waste of a life.
42
Usually replacing sexual orientation with race will show how bigoted the statement is (even if the homophobe hotly asserts that it's not the same thing), but this level of moron maybe doesn't see anything wrong with the changed paragraph.
"There are negroes who will state something to the following effect: "If I could take a pill that would make me white, I wouldn't take it!" In other words, even if science could give you the option to change, you would still choose blackness! Since this seems to be the prevailing view of all negroes, why would I possibly be wrong to hate and despise the likes of you?"
Usually replacing sexual orientation with race will show how bigoted the statement is (even if the homophobe hotly asserts that it's not the same thing), but this level of moron maybe doesn't see anything wrong with the changed paragraph.
43
LW, why shouldn't you hate and despise homosexuals?
Because there is nothing objectively morally wrong with being gay.
Your dislike comes from irrational ingrained prejudice or arbitrary religious doctrine. Your mind is broken. Fix it. Evolve already.
Because there is nothing objectively morally wrong with being gay.
Your dislike comes from irrational ingrained prejudice or arbitrary religious doctrine. Your mind is broken. Fix it. Evolve already.
44
Let's not forget that, at least for men, the homosexual lifestyle comes with some pretty extreme health risks. An argument can be made that being gay is like being obese. That is to say, kind of a choice, kind of not, not the worst thing in the world to be, but not a good thing either. I don't feel the need to lecture fat people about how they ought to change their unhealthy unnatural lifestyle. On the other hand when an overweight friend or acquaintance loses a few pounds I usually see that as a good thing and tell them so. Should I respond the same way when a gay or lesbian identified individual finds a heterosexual relationship?
45
Also, most really worthwhile women won't date a homophobe. You want a GGG chick? Don't be a phobe.
Also, hate - added to alcohol, an anger management problem, stunted social development, or a bad day - may cause you to do something stupid. If you hurt or kill an innocent person, your life will be ruined. And, of course, you might not like how it turns out. Like the last muscular testosterone-laden drunken moron who thought he had the right by virtue of being straight to physically assault me without provocation. I don't know if he needed up in jail or the hospital. But when I was done with him, the police hauled him away in handcuffs, crying and bleeding.
Also, hate - added to alcohol, an anger management problem, stunted social development, or a bad day - may cause you to do something stupid. If you hurt or kill an innocent person, your life will be ruined. And, of course, you might not like how it turns out. Like the last muscular testosterone-laden drunken moron who thought he had the right by virtue of being straight to physically assault me without provocation. I don't know if he needed up in jail or the hospital. But when I was done with him, the police hauled him away in handcuffs, crying and bleeding.
47
Not to sound like someone's wise aunt, but I always wonder if people like this have known love ever in their lives. If I took a pill that turned me straight, I would be able to be with my girlfriend anymore, and the thought of that alone makes me deeply sad. Having her as my girlfriend makes any bullshit I've encountered because I'm a lesbian seem like small. Not to sound like Huey Lewis, but that's the power of love.
48
@44 "Should I respond the same way when a gay or lesbian identified individual finds a heterosexual relationship?" Umm, I can't imagine that comes up very much. But whenever it does, you can just be happy your friend is happy and mind your own business otherwise.
49
@35: No, no one is born gay. No one is born with an adult sexuality of any kind. People might be born with genetic or prenatal environmental factors that will predispose them to forming a "gay" sexual identity in a given historical-cultural context, but there is no one genetic/biological factor (or confluence of factors) that ALL gay people share, and no one genetic/biological factor (or confluence of factors) that ONLY gay people share, which means that environment throughout one's HAS to play some part in the formation of sexual identity. None of this means that homosexual desire is a conscious choice, but I think basing an argument for gay rights on a premise that is easily demonstrated to be wrong is a bad rhetorical tactic.
50
If you could take a pill to remove your grief over the death of a loved one, would you do it? Our feelings and experiences are what make us who we are -- unique and human. Sometimes our differences and experiences cause us pain, because of the nature of the world we live in, but to live without those differences is to be less than fully human. They inform our understanding of the world.
I wish that my relationship with my parents was better -- that we shared basic philosophies about politics and religion that would bring us closer together. Would I take a pill that would change my beliefs to match my parents' for the sake of that closer relationship? Hell no! I arrived at my beliefs honestly, and I'm keeping them, even if it hurts sometimes.
I wish that my relationship with my parents was better -- that we shared basic philosophies about politics and religion that would bring us closer together. Would I take a pill that would change my beliefs to match my parents' for the sake of that closer relationship? Hell no! I arrived at my beliefs honestly, and I'm keeping them, even if it hurts sometimes.
51
I never cared to have what heteros have. It never interested me. Quite the opposite. It seems so stifling and burdensome. And I also never wanted any children. The world has too many children without homes or somebody to love them.
52
Yeah, Dan.. you totally missed an opportunity to answer this guy's question. It's so full of holes, and he thinks he's so clever.. you really ought to have answered it. Hopefully he reads the comment section!
53
If ONLY there was a pill to make me gay, I'd take it in a heartbeat. As a 50 year old fat, hairy dude, I can either be a straight loser or Lazy Bear GOD! I feel embiggened already!
54
I think Star Trek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outcast…)) has this question covered, LW: Because taking brain-altering pills is creepy. Because psychoactive drug therapy is reserved for people with legitimate mental disorders. Because every reputable psychological/psychiatric society in America has agreed, for going-on 40 years, that homosexuality is not a mental disorder. Get with the program.
55
Your continued assertion that it is not a choice is, fundamentally, devoid of a reasonable level of evidence.This is the kind of letter that makes me want to hit my head against a cement wall.
No matter what kind of "evidence" we produce, the LW would just throw it on the ground and say, "No, really, I meant actual evidence. I guess you don't have any." And keep repeating it, no matter how scientifically valid the rising mountain of proof is.
Mind you, my primary response is, "Fuck you. This is not an illness and we don't require a magic pill to cure it."
56
@49: By that logic, we shouldn't say that tall or short people are "born that way" because 1) babies are all pretty short, and 2) environmental factors play a role. But when your 4'11" tall cousin, who was born of short parents and short grandparents, bemoans being short... do you say "well, why did you choose to be short, then?"
Also, this asshole magical pill guy apparently has no clue that the only reason that *some* gays *might* choose to take his *imaginary* pill to become straight would be to avoid being treated like dirt by assholes like him. His whole argument is premised on the fact that there are bigots who delight in making people feel bad for who they are, and who succeed in doing so.
Also, this asshole magical pill guy apparently has no clue that the only reason that *some* gays *might* choose to take his *imaginary* pill to become straight would be to avoid being treated like dirt by assholes like him. His whole argument is premised on the fact that there are bigots who delight in making people feel bad for who they are, and who succeed in doing so.
57
@44 With all due respect, Ken, the only "health" risks I have faced as a result of the gay side of being bi have been one actual assault and a few threatened assaults by haters. My husband and I also suffered a period of many months of what felt like debilitating exhaustion, but that was due to being new parents of a newborn, not being a same-sex couple.
If you are talking about a higher incidence of promiscuity and STD risk among mostly younger gays, and possibly higher drug use rates as well, there is a reason for that and it is not static. It is a sociological effect of the decriminalization and destigmatization of homosexuality upont he gay population as a whole over that past four decades, and upon many gay persons when they first come out, a blowing off of steam and an establishment of independence marked by excess. As being gay becomes fully mainstream and integrated, as is happening, gay people will more and more be expected to and actually will conform their behavior to societal norms. When gay kids are dating each other in high school just like their straight peers are dating each other, they will operate under models of social behavior just like hteir straight peers. And without suppressing their development in this critical adolescent time period, there will be less of a reactive acting out and catching up with risky behavior upon adulthood.
If you are talking about a higher incidence of promiscuity and STD risk among mostly younger gays, and possibly higher drug use rates as well, there is a reason for that and it is not static. It is a sociological effect of the decriminalization and destigmatization of homosexuality upont he gay population as a whole over that past four decades, and upon many gay persons when they first come out, a blowing off of steam and an establishment of independence marked by excess. As being gay becomes fully mainstream and integrated, as is happening, gay people will more and more be expected to and actually will conform their behavior to societal norms. When gay kids are dating each other in high school just like their straight peers are dating each other, they will operate under models of social behavior just like hteir straight peers. And without suppressing their development in this critical adolescent time period, there will be less of a reactive acting out and catching up with risky behavior upon adulthood.
58
@55 I know church ladies who say the same thing about human evolution-there is no evidence. No matter how much evidence scientists dig up-there is no eveidence. You see, if you just keep yourself ignorant enough, you can deny any evidence exists because it doesn't exist in their empty heads..
59
"Let's not forget that, at least for men, the homosexual lifestyle comes with some pretty extreme health risks"
There is no such thing as a "homosexual lifestyle". There is no one, monolithic way that gay men live. None of the health risks you are thinking about are limited to, OR inherent to being gay. They are related to specific behaviors that may be common among some subsets of gay men, but are far from universal to all gay men, or limited to them
I have had an active sex life since my teenaged years. I am now in my mid 40s. I have never had an STI, or any disease or injury related to my sexuality, ever. I am in a monogamous relationship for almost 20 years with another person who has also never had an STI of any kind.
What extreme health risks is my "homosexual lifestyle" putting me in exactly? It is perfectly possible to be gay, have an active sex life, and not be at any more inherent risk of "extreme health risks" than straight people. It's all a matter of how the individual chooses to approach sex and the inherent risks sex poses for ALL people.
There is no such thing as a "homosexual lifestyle". There is no one, monolithic way that gay men live. None of the health risks you are thinking about are limited to, OR inherent to being gay. They are related to specific behaviors that may be common among some subsets of gay men, but are far from universal to all gay men, or limited to them
I have had an active sex life since my teenaged years. I am now in my mid 40s. I have never had an STI, or any disease or injury related to my sexuality, ever. I am in a monogamous relationship for almost 20 years with another person who has also never had an STI of any kind.
What extreme health risks is my "homosexual lifestyle" putting me in exactly? It is perfectly possible to be gay, have an active sex life, and not be at any more inherent risk of "extreme health risks" than straight people. It's all a matter of how the individual chooses to approach sex and the inherent risks sex poses for ALL people.
60
I tried to be straight, I really did. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a single woman willing to surgically alter her vagina so it was more appealing to me sexually. I have still, miraculously, managed to not hate all women.
61
I dated a guy who, based on the experiences and feelings he told me he had, I identified as bi. He called himself a "straight guy who enjoys a twink as much as any other guy," and identified himself as a man who had CHOSEN to be straight. I should have run the other way the first time he said that.
62
@54 that was a great episode; very romantic (until her transformation). That brings up another example that even the letter writer can relate to: if you could take a magic pill that could change your gender (provided you are cis-gendered), would you do it? I bet even if the LW thought that women have easier or better lives (he may), I'd wager that he would still not want to be a woman. Because gender, like sexuality, is part of WHO WE ARE, duh.
63
@44
I'm so tired of that line of argument about the homosexual lifestyle having health risks.
I'm originally from New Orleans. On about a two block stretch of Bourbon Street and a few adjacent side streets, I can find lots of bars with drinking and drunk gays, some on drugs, some having sex in bathrooms, some of them hustlers, a lot of them looking to pick someone up. This, I suppose, is what is meant by the "homosexual lifestyle."
The thing is that once I pass that two block stretch, I enter an 8-10 block stretch of bars catering to straight people. And who is on those bars? A lot of straight people, some of them drunk, most of them drinking, some on drugs, some having sex in bathrooms, some of them hustlers, a lot of them looking to pick someone up. Yet I never hear this described as the "heterosexual lifestyle."
Whenever I hear someone talk about the "homosexual lifestyle," I'm automaticallly prepared for a lazy journalist, social scientist or gay-rights opponent who can't be bothered doing actual research, so he or she heads down to the nearest red-light district. Instead, how come these people never go to meet people at gay churches, or gay chorus rehearsals, or gay cycling clubs, or at the (regular)day care centers where we leave their kids, or at Home Depot where we're buying paint and floor tiles, or at Wal-Mart where we get groceries on Saturday just like "normal" people?
My husband and I cross the threshhold of a gay bar about four times a year, and we rarely stay more than a half hour. The other 361 nights of the year, we're busy doing something else.
I'm so tired of that line of argument about the homosexual lifestyle having health risks.
I'm originally from New Orleans. On about a two block stretch of Bourbon Street and a few adjacent side streets, I can find lots of bars with drinking and drunk gays, some on drugs, some having sex in bathrooms, some of them hustlers, a lot of them looking to pick someone up. This, I suppose, is what is meant by the "homosexual lifestyle."
The thing is that once I pass that two block stretch, I enter an 8-10 block stretch of bars catering to straight people. And who is on those bars? A lot of straight people, some of them drunk, most of them drinking, some on drugs, some having sex in bathrooms, some of them hustlers, a lot of them looking to pick someone up. Yet I never hear this described as the "heterosexual lifestyle."
Whenever I hear someone talk about the "homosexual lifestyle," I'm automaticallly prepared for a lazy journalist, social scientist or gay-rights opponent who can't be bothered doing actual research, so he or she heads down to the nearest red-light district. Instead, how come these people never go to meet people at gay churches, or gay chorus rehearsals, or gay cycling clubs, or at the (regular)day care centers where we leave their kids, or at Home Depot where we're buying paint and floor tiles, or at Wal-Mart where we get groceries on Saturday just like "normal" people?
My husband and I cross the threshhold of a gay bar about four times a year, and we rarely stay more than a half hour. The other 361 nights of the year, we're busy doing something else.
64
You can hate whoever you want, for whatever reason you want, CTM. You just can't act like a psychopath, nor expect to be treated as anything other than a deranged bigot in polite company should you air your medieval views. For that matter, you can be racist and sexist if you want, too. Just don't expect to make or keep many friends who aren't also racist and sexist, and, well, I don't know if you've met many open racists or sexists, but I've never met one I'd care to have as a friend, even independent of backwards judgements about others.
Nobody's infringing on your freedom of thought or speech, little buddy. We're just all equally entitled to our opinions of you; for example, I'm entitled to think you're a laughable chowderhead for firing off a letter so chock-full of logical fallacies and ignorant bravado. So how about you stop wasting your mental energy "hating and despising" people who aren't hurting you one damn bit, and get a hobby?
addendum: I am pretty sure this letter is a troll, but I involuntarily composed this response in my head even so, and I didn't feel like letting it go to waste.
Nobody's infringing on your freedom of thought or speech, little buddy. We're just all equally entitled to our opinions of you; for example, I'm entitled to think you're a laughable chowderhead for firing off a letter so chock-full of logical fallacies and ignorant bravado. So how about you stop wasting your mental energy "hating and despising" people who aren't hurting you one damn bit, and get a hobby?
addendum: I am pretty sure this letter is a troll, but I involuntarily composed this response in my head even so, and I didn't feel like letting it go to waste.
65
Nice comments herein.
To add, part of me wonders if we should take this dude on his argument (if you can call it that). Let's grant, just for a moment, that sexuality is a choice. If that is true, are their not other "choices" people make that you find abhorrent, like, say, gambling, drug use, murder, domestic violence, actually believing that the planet is only a few thousand years old, or just being a contemptuous asshole? I can think of a host of "choices" that fellow humans make that I find contemptuous, but it strikes me as a sign of pathology to be consumed with hating a class of people who make choices I abhor.
I knew a person in college who was equally consumed in her hatred of gays. She was outraged one day because a person in her class wore an "I can't even think straight" t-shirt on the grounds that said person made her consider the sex acts the gay person was engaged in. I remember thinking, "Ya know, unless i'm attracted to someone, I don't really spend much time imagining what kind of sex they may or may not be having, be it straight, gay, vanilla, or kink." And it made me think about anti-gay hatred in a new way--that it is truly a pathology, because the people who suffer it don't realize that most "normal" people don't give a shit about what other people may be doing to get off.
That kind of consumptive hatred thus signals to me that the person in question is deeply deeply afraid of their own desires and, thus, likely closeted. That or they are so rigidly sexist/entitled that they insist that others must want what they do or see the world the way they do--a rigid, authoritarian compulsion to a sense of order as safety. Either way, I think they aren't just bad critical thinkers but broken people.
Final thought: there's no evidence? The consensus of historians, psychologists and biologists is that sexuality is hard-wired and that some percentage of LGBTQ folks are present across all human cultures (and the animal kingdom too). Anyone who says otherwise, again, has need to fool themselves.
More...
To add, part of me wonders if we should take this dude on his argument (if you can call it that). Let's grant, just for a moment, that sexuality is a choice. If that is true, are their not other "choices" people make that you find abhorrent, like, say, gambling, drug use, murder, domestic violence, actually believing that the planet is only a few thousand years old, or just being a contemptuous asshole? I can think of a host of "choices" that fellow humans make that I find contemptuous, but it strikes me as a sign of pathology to be consumed with hating a class of people who make choices I abhor.
I knew a person in college who was equally consumed in her hatred of gays. She was outraged one day because a person in her class wore an "I can't even think straight" t-shirt on the grounds that said person made her consider the sex acts the gay person was engaged in. I remember thinking, "Ya know, unless i'm attracted to someone, I don't really spend much time imagining what kind of sex they may or may not be having, be it straight, gay, vanilla, or kink." And it made me think about anti-gay hatred in a new way--that it is truly a pathology, because the people who suffer it don't realize that most "normal" people don't give a shit about what other people may be doing to get off.
That kind of consumptive hatred thus signals to me that the person in question is deeply deeply afraid of their own desires and, thus, likely closeted. That or they are so rigidly sexist/entitled that they insist that others must want what they do or see the world the way they do--a rigid, authoritarian compulsion to a sense of order as safety. Either way, I think they aren't just bad critical thinkers but broken people.
Final thought: there's no evidence? The consensus of historians, psychologists and biologists is that sexuality is hard-wired and that some percentage of LGBTQ folks are present across all human cultures (and the animal kingdom too). Anyone who says otherwise, again, has need to fool themselves.
66
Also @44--Lesbians have far lower rates of AIDS and other STDs than heterosexuals. I hope you have sent Cynthia Nixon a letter of congratulations.
67
If that letter writer ever comes up with a pill to turn this very hetero guy bisexual, I would take it twice. But I see no sexual advantage for my gay friends who have all the action they desire, to come over to the hetero side, and get some action when the stars align.
Oh, but I hate pills.
Oh, but I hate pills.
68
@59 "It's all a matter of how the individual chooses to approach sex and the inherent risks sex poses for ALL people."
That's true. However, a frighteningly large number of gay men approach the inherent risks of sexuality with suicidal recklessness. Straight people do the same thing, but not with nearly the same frequency.
That's true. However, a frighteningly large number of gay men approach the inherent risks of sexuality with suicidal recklessness. Straight people do the same thing, but not with nearly the same frequency.
70
@9 and @42, right on. It works for gender, too:
""There are women who will state something to the following effect: "If I could take a pill that would make me male, I wouldn't take it!" In other words, even if science could give you the option to change, you would still choose womanhood! Since this seems to be the prevailing view of all women, why would I possibly be wrong to hate and despise the likes of you?"
(Okay, for this one "all" should be "most," as there are trans people. But even the existence of FTM people doesn't mean that ciswomen are some kind of despicable for enjoying being female, and too stupid to realize that they should really want to be men.)
""There are women who will state something to the following effect: "If I could take a pill that would make me male, I wouldn't take it!" In other words, even if science could give you the option to change, you would still choose womanhood! Since this seems to be the prevailing view of all women, why would I possibly be wrong to hate and despise the likes of you?"
(Okay, for this one "all" should be "most," as there are trans people. But even the existence of FTM people doesn't mean that ciswomen are some kind of despicable for enjoying being female, and too stupid to realize that they should really want to be men.)
71
@58
It's not just the "church ladies" who shudder (delicately, I'm sure) at the thought of evolution. After all, don't all those Creation Museum men discredit evolution because, otherwise, it wouldn't be called a theory?
It's not just the "church ladies" who shudder (delicately, I'm sure) at the thought of evolution. After all, don't all those Creation Museum men discredit evolution because, otherwise, it wouldn't be called a theory?
72
That's true. However, a frighteningly large number of gay men approach the inherent risks of sexuality with suicidal recklessness. Straight people do the same thing, but not with nearly the same frequency.It seems pretty clear to me that this has less to do with homosexuality vs. heterosexuality than with culturally (and perhaps biologically, though I hesitate to assert as much) ingrained differences between the way men and women approach sex. This seems well borne out by the lower STD rates among lesbians.
73
How can such a subhumanly stupid LW even manage to switch a computer on? That's the question we should all be asking ourselves.
@ 68 - Personnally, I know a lot fewer gay than straight men who approach the inherent risks of drinking and driving with suicidal recklessness. But does it justify hatred of straights? NO.
@ 49 - PURE BS. I was born with the same genetic or prenatal environmental factors as my brother, who is as straight as I am gay. And I had my first homosexual crush before the age of 3. If I wasn't born this way, well, please tell me, when exactly did I change? For what reason?
@ 68 - Personnally, I know a lot fewer gay than straight men who approach the inherent risks of drinking and driving with suicidal recklessness. But does it justify hatred of straights? NO.
@ 49 - PURE BS. I was born with the same genetic or prenatal environmental factors as my brother, who is as straight as I am gay. And I had my first homosexual crush before the age of 3. If I wasn't born this way, well, please tell me, when exactly did I change? For what reason?
74
I'm already straight and I wouldn't take that pill.
Of course, his supposition that there could be a pill that 'cured' homosexuality is an admition that homosexuality is biological. And since God made each one of us, then God made homosexuals. I do not think he made them just so other people could hate them.
How about this reason - Jesus says to love thy neighbor as thyself. He never gave an exception to that rule. So hating gays is against God's will. Going against God's will is a sin that will send to to Hell where you will writhe in everlasting torment in a lake of fire. That sounds like a good reason not to hate.
Of course, his supposition that there could be a pill that 'cured' homosexuality is an admition that homosexuality is biological. And since God made each one of us, then God made homosexuals. I do not think he made them just so other people could hate them.
How about this reason - Jesus says to love thy neighbor as thyself. He never gave an exception to that rule. So hating gays is against God's will. Going against God's will is a sin that will send to to Hell where you will writhe in everlasting torment in a lake of fire. That sounds like a good reason not to hate.
75
@66 Don't be silly. Do you really think that women's health matters to Ken? He even specifies "at least for men" in his post, then goes on to suggest that he should congratulate his (totally not imaginary) lesbian friends if they choose a straight lifestyle that puts them at greatly increased risk of contracting STIs and HIV.
Note to homophobes everywhere: if you are going to use the "I'm just concerned about gay people's health" argument, you'd better be prepared to support full marriage equality for lesbians, as well as conversion therapy for all us straight women who put ourselves at risk by choosing to be attracted to men.
Note to homophobes everywhere: if you are going to use the "I'm just concerned about gay people's health" argument, you'd better be prepared to support full marriage equality for lesbians, as well as conversion therapy for all us straight women who put ourselves at risk by choosing to be attracted to men.
76
That's like asking a non-white person why on earth they wouldn't take a pill to turn themselves white. Um, maybe because they aren't broken and don't need to be fixed?
78
@72 Is it possible that millions of years evolution have molded men and women to compliment one another, you know like a yin and yang type deal? Maybe the high risk behavior that many gay men engage in is the result of male sexuality freed from the calming influence of women?
@73 "Personnally, I know a lot fewer gay than straight men who approach the inherent risks of drinking and driving with suicidal recklessness."
They only act that way because their wives don't give them enough sex. They deserve our compassion and understanding. Remember, hate the sin, but love the sinner.
@73 "Personnally, I know a lot fewer gay than straight men who approach the inherent risks of drinking and driving with suicidal recklessness."
They only act that way because their wives don't give them enough sex. They deserve our compassion and understanding. Remember, hate the sin, but love the sinner.
79
And here's the only reason that may actually affect the LW: not despising the gays would make him seem less like a self-loathing gay.
80
This whole born gay/straight thing is completely beside the point. It's okay to be gay, but it has nothing to do with the fact that it's a natural phenomenon. It's okay to be gay for the same reasons it's okay to prefer Coke to Pepsi, or to be Catholic rather than Protestant, or to be left or right handed. It doesn't matter to anyone else's life, it's your life to live, and the Enlightenment already fucking happened, so we believe in the rights of the individual.
81
@ 78 - If that were true, how come I was always the "reasonable" one when I was a sexless adolescent and all my straight friends were getting it all the time?
The fact is, your argument @ 68 was pure prejudice under the guise of a "caring and concerned" approach. Although we've recently seen a surge in non-safe sex practices among homosexuals, the only reason that there hasn't been a similar rise in irresponsible behavior among heterosexuals is because, from all the testimonies I've heard on the subject over the years from both male and female straight acquaintances, they simply never acted responsibly (i.e., used condoms).
The fact is, your argument @ 68 was pure prejudice under the guise of a "caring and concerned" approach. Although we've recently seen a surge in non-safe sex practices among homosexuals, the only reason that there hasn't been a similar rise in irresponsible behavior among heterosexuals is because, from all the testimonies I've heard on the subject over the years from both male and female straight acquaintances, they simply never acted responsibly (i.e., used condoms).
82
@75: Since the statistical evidence suggests that gay marriage reduces gay men's risk of sexually transmitted diseases generally and HIV in particular, that argument would strongly suggest a pro-gay marriage stance. Coming home to the same dude every night reduces STDs. Who knew?
83
I don't get the "choice" people at all. What religion you practice is a choice, but no one thinks it should be legal to discriminate against people based on their religion of choice. Even when they choose mind-limiting, bigoted, dumbass religions. Just saying.
84
@81 If unsafe sex practices are equally common among heterosexuals and gay men, why is it that gay men have such a high rate of HIV infection?
85
Dear CTK,
I am just going to say that gays don't pose any threat to you, unless you are closeted and afraid of being outed. I'm hetero, and gays don't scare me one bit. I also, being hetero, do not spend one moment of time worrying about/obsessing over/feeling threatened by the sexual acts of homosexuals. It has nothing to do with me.
Gay people and straight people have one major thing in common - the word PEOPLE! We are all human beings, and deserving of civility, courtesy, and EQUALITY!
Also, if sexual orientation and attraction are choices, then take Dan's challenge - CHOOSE to be GAY, and suck his dick. On film, so everyone can witness the CHOICE.
Otherwise, please shut the fuck up with your homophobic, ugly hate!
Have a great day! :-)
I am just going to say that gays don't pose any threat to you, unless you are closeted and afraid of being outed. I'm hetero, and gays don't scare me one bit. I also, being hetero, do not spend one moment of time worrying about/obsessing over/feeling threatened by the sexual acts of homosexuals. It has nothing to do with me.
Gay people and straight people have one major thing in common - the word PEOPLE! We are all human beings, and deserving of civility, courtesy, and EQUALITY!
Also, if sexual orientation and attraction are choices, then take Dan's challenge - CHOOSE to be GAY, and suck his dick. On film, so everyone can witness the CHOICE.
Otherwise, please shut the fuck up with your homophobic, ugly hate!
Have a great day! :-)
86
Guys who hate gay people are abhorrent to smart straight women.
Although you probably hate smart straight women too.
Although you probably hate smart straight women too.
88
If you could pray the bigot away CTK, would you?
Racists were bigots who thought one single characteristic about a person justified discriminating against people in housing, public accommodation, employment, and who they could marry.
Anti-gay bigots think that a single characteristic about people justifies discrimination in housing. public accommodation, employment, and who they can marry.
But I am fairly sure if you sincerely ask God for help He will lift the log of bigotry from your eye.
Racists were bigots who thought one single characteristic about a person justified discriminating against people in housing, public accommodation, employment, and who they could marry.
Anti-gay bigots think that a single characteristic about people justifies discrimination in housing. public accommodation, employment, and who they can marry.
But I am fairly sure if you sincerely ask God for help He will lift the log of bigotry from your eye.
89
Even if it were 100 percent a choice, why would it matter? You don't say "nurses are bad people because being a nurse is a choice."
90
You know, now that he brings it up, this whole choice/not-a-choice debate is irrelevant. If it were a choice, it would make no difference.
(also, if it is a choice, that would imply that we are all fundamentally bi)
(also, if it is a choice, that would imply that we are all fundamentally bi)
91
*sigh*
We have this magical thing in this country called in vitro fertilization. With it, women can become pregnant with embryos that are not biologically theirs. Given this truth, should we hate African Americans who don't choose to give birth to white babies? They CHOOSE to give birth to more non-white babies, knowing very well that racists in this country hate and despite non-whites. Hell, they aren't even choosing this difficult road for themselves; they are choosing it for their children. Does that make them bad for not CHOOSING to give birth children who will be free of such discrimination, or does it make anyone who honestly puts forth this argument an unmitigated asshole?
We have this magical thing in this country called in vitro fertilization. With it, women can become pregnant with embryos that are not biologically theirs. Given this truth, should we hate African Americans who don't choose to give birth to white babies? They CHOOSE to give birth to more non-white babies, knowing very well that racists in this country hate and despite non-whites. Hell, they aren't even choosing this difficult road for themselves; they are choosing it for their children. Does that make them bad for not CHOOSING to give birth children who will be free of such discrimination, or does it make anyone who honestly puts forth this argument an unmitigated asshole?
92
@84, if a straight guy refuses condoms but only has sex with three women, none of whom have HIV, then he can't get HIV. Though he'll probably get other diseases, and he may get someone pregnant.
Gay guys have more opportunity to have sex with more people, because more men will say yes to them. And more gay men already have HIV than women do. So the odds of HIV go up a lot for gay men, especially if they also refuse condoms. Conversely, their odds of getting someone pregnant are miniscule.
Gay guys have more opportunity to have sex with more people, because more men will say yes to them. And more gay men already have HIV than women do. So the odds of HIV go up a lot for gay men, especially if they also refuse condoms. Conversely, their odds of getting someone pregnant are miniscule.
93
@84 - It's pretty simple epidemiology. AIDS first infected gay men on the West Coast. Its primary method of transmission is through sexual contact, and gay men don't often have sex with heteros. But don't worry too much; eventually its transmissions through the homo/hetero population will equilibrate and it will become an equal-opportunity pandemic. In the meantime, you can ponder @92's point about the frighteningly high risk of pregnancy associated with the heterosexual lifestyle.
94
@90: this whole choice/not-a-choice debate is irrelevant
Indeed. However, emphasizing that being gay is not a choice is/was an important tactic for countering the arguments that it's "unnatural", that gay people are somehow to blame for being gay, and that "gay problem" can be solved by converting gays into straight people.
Ultimately, though, once you've abandoned the idea that gay is inherently wrong, the question of whether gayness springs from nature or choice is irrelevant from a legal/political/moral perspective, although it's still a fascinating question to the sexologists among us.
Indeed. However, emphasizing that being gay is not a choice is/was an important tactic for countering the arguments that it's "unnatural", that gay people are somehow to blame for being gay, and that "gay problem" can be solved by converting gays into straight people.
Ultimately, though, once you've abandoned the idea that gay is inherently wrong, the question of whether gayness springs from nature or choice is irrelevant from a legal/political/moral perspective, although it's still a fascinating question to the sexologists among us.
95
Ms Erica @48 - Why assume that a homosexual person in a heterosexual relationship is happy? Fine if the person is happy, but I doubt that anyone rational making a blatantly unusual relationship choice would take offence if a friend made a point of ascertaining real happiness within. Suppose, for instance, that you were suddenly to begin a relationship with a reactionary hard-right conservative. Would you really expect or want all your liberal and feminist friends just to say, "Oh, cool!" without any concern over why you're embracing your former dealbreakers?
By the way, I don't believe you really think such people are automatically happy, just that you left out an if or something.
I'll answer Mr Mehlman's question. How should he react when a gay or lesbian identified individual finds a heterosexual relationship? He should apologize for his contribution to the oppressive conditions that made the individual look for such a soul-sacrificing relationship in the first place.
By the way, I don't believe you really think such people are automatically happy, just that you left out an if or something.
I'll answer Mr Mehlman's question. How should he react when a gay or lesbian identified individual finds a heterosexual relationship? He should apologize for his contribution to the oppressive conditions that made the individual look for such a soul-sacrificing relationship in the first place.
96
"I am a man who thinks homosexuality is wrong and I don't like homosexuals."
This sentence is entirely wrong from start to finish, but the latter half is the more troubling. Many people think homosexuality is wrong. It's usually people who still think the Bible is more than a collection of stories that has been manipulated by man for political power over time. But I digress..
However, to say "I don't like homosexuals" identifies an entire population of people whom you judge based on a single attribute. These damned homosexuals could be life-saving doctors, brave firefighters, talented educators, loving mothers and fathers, etc. and yet because of who they desire to sleep with you have decided that you don't like them. You know who else made sweeping judgments like that? Hitler. And the KKK. And the president of Iran.
Is this the company you want to keep? When you stop seeing people as well-rounded, multi-faceted creatures and just as a single attribute with which you disagree, you eliminate their humanity. Blanket hate like that is a very dangerous thing.
This sentence is entirely wrong from start to finish, but the latter half is the more troubling. Many people think homosexuality is wrong. It's usually people who still think the Bible is more than a collection of stories that has been manipulated by man for political power over time. But I digress..
However, to say "I don't like homosexuals" identifies an entire population of people whom you judge based on a single attribute. These damned homosexuals could be life-saving doctors, brave firefighters, talented educators, loving mothers and fathers, etc. and yet because of who they desire to sleep with you have decided that you don't like them. You know who else made sweeping judgments like that? Hitler. And the KKK. And the president of Iran.
Is this the company you want to keep? When you stop seeing people as well-rounded, multi-faceted creatures and just as a single attribute with which you disagree, you eliminate their humanity. Blanket hate like that is a very dangerous thing.
97
@92
That's complete nonsense, I'm gay yet I haven't had sex in 9 years. In most countries around the world gays are celibate.
That's complete nonsense, I'm gay yet I haven't had sex in 9 years. In most countries around the world gays are celibate.
98
I wouldn't change my sexuality because I fucking earned it! It has been tempered by pain, joy, experience, and hatered. It was finely honed by self- respect and dignity.
My sexuality is a gift that has endured despite these kinds of assholes trying to destroy it. How dare they try to force me to pull the threads of the tapestry of my life! They have only made it, and by extension me, stronger. why in the hell would I want to give up after all this hard work?
My sexuality is a gift that has endured despite these kinds of assholes trying to destroy it. How dare they try to force me to pull the threads of the tapestry of my life! They have only made it, and by extension me, stronger. why in the hell would I want to give up after all this hard work?
99
Many of you are asking "Why is the LetterWriter so concerned about the sex lives of people he doesn't even know? What business is it of his whether anyone is gay?"
You forget - LW KNOWS that God is punishing him for allowing gays to exist peacefully. Every time LW serves a gay person at his store, or rents an apartment to a gay couple, God sends another tornado or stock market slump. Little kids are getting leukemia because LW didn't spit at the gay couple he passed on the street holding hands.
The idea that bad things happen due to bad luck, or making ill thought out choices, is foreign to LW. The fact that the general trend is that nations that extend full civil rights to gays tend to be doing better, economically, socially, than those that don't is unknown to him, and he wouldn't believe it if you told him.
"Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has" is the credo of people like this - you're not going to reach him with reason.
You forget - LW KNOWS that God is punishing him for allowing gays to exist peacefully. Every time LW serves a gay person at his store, or rents an apartment to a gay couple, God sends another tornado or stock market slump. Little kids are getting leukemia because LW didn't spit at the gay couple he passed on the street holding hands.
The idea that bad things happen due to bad luck, or making ill thought out choices, is foreign to LW. The fact that the general trend is that nations that extend full civil rights to gays tend to be doing better, economically, socially, than those that don't is unknown to him, and he wouldn't believe it if you told him.
"Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has" is the credo of people like this - you're not going to reach him with reason.
100
@95, I guess I don't truly believe in the fixity of orientation, even though I also don't believe it's under our control (ie, a choice). If a lesbian friend came to me and said she was marrying a man, I wouldn't even be surprised (I've seen it several times), and I would definitely wish her happiness.
If my gay friend came to me and said he had fallen in love with a woman, I would be hard pressed not to give him a sharp look to see if he was pulling my leg, but if he was serious, I would not give him a hard time. None of my business to judge my friends' relationships.
In fact, I think if I started dating a reactionary hard-right conservative (and wasn't acting erratically in other aspects), the best thing for my friends to do would be to take it in stride and hope I come to my senses on my own. When people are in love, they tend to shun people who try to criticize their shiny new lover.
So, to answer your original question, I assume people have chosen their relationships to suit themselves, and it's none of my business to inquire into how precisely it makes them happy.
If my gay friend came to me and said he had fallen in love with a woman, I would be hard pressed not to give him a sharp look to see if he was pulling my leg, but if he was serious, I would not give him a hard time. None of my business to judge my friends' relationships.
In fact, I think if I started dating a reactionary hard-right conservative (and wasn't acting erratically in other aspects), the best thing for my friends to do would be to take it in stride and hope I come to my senses on my own. When people are in love, they tend to shun people who try to criticize their shiny new lover.
So, to answer your original question, I assume people have chosen their relationships to suit themselves, and it's none of my business to inquire into how precisely it makes them happy.
101
@97, your experience is an anecdote, not data. If you have some evidence that most gays around the world are celibate, please let me know. Obviously, celibate people aren't going to get HIV from their sexual practices. But that wasn't the topic of conversation, as sparked by Ken @44...
To make you happy, I'll rephrase my point @92: "Gay guys living the homosexual lifestyle have more opportunity to have sex with more people [than straight men do]."
To make you happy, I'll rephrase my point @92: "Gay guys living the homosexual lifestyle have more opportunity to have sex with more people [than straight men do]."
103
@99, that is exactly why I will never hesitate to tell people how incredibly evil a force I think organized religions in general, and the Abrahamic faiths in particular, really are... but only if it emerges naturally in the course of a conversation. There's no better way to come off a dickhead than to insult someone's beliefs apropos of nothing, but you do have to make your viewpoints known when the time is right.
Anyway, yeah, I get what you're saying. Religions like that torture people who are just trying to be decent into doing awful, awful things in the name of "morality."
Anyway, yeah, I get what you're saying. Religions like that torture people who are just trying to be decent into doing awful, awful things in the name of "morality."
104
@55 said No matter what kind of "evidence" we produce, the LW would just throw it on the ground and say, "No, really, I meant actual evidence. I guess you don't have any." And keep repeating it, no matter how scientifically valid the rising mountain of proof is.
And that is exactly why I don't bother with justifications. I go fucking straight for our rights, and if phobes whine about it, then well boo fucking hoo. Go stand there in the corner with the racists and the misogynists.
I refuse to justify my existence.
And that is exactly why I don't bother with justifications. I go fucking straight for our rights, and if phobes whine about it, then well boo fucking hoo. Go stand there in the corner with the racists and the misogynists.
I refuse to justify my existence.
105
What an idiot.
First of all to the guy who asked the question "Fuck You".
Secondly if there was this magical pill I wouldn't take it either. Would a heterosexual take a pill to be gay?
Being gay has been difficult but it's given me so much as well. Not least of which compassion for those less fortunate than me as well as empathy. Unlike those hater sons-of-bitches that delight in bullying minorities while piously looking up to their non-existent god on Sundays.
First of all to the guy who asked the question "Fuck You".
Secondly if there was this magical pill I wouldn't take it either. Would a heterosexual take a pill to be gay?
Being gay has been difficult but it's given me so much as well. Not least of which compassion for those less fortunate than me as well as empathy. Unlike those hater sons-of-bitches that delight in bullying minorities while piously looking up to their non-existent god on Sundays.
107
The reason HIV rates in the US is higher for gay people is that HIV hit gay people first in the US and that acted as a warning system for heterosexuals. They knew about it before it hit them. Take a look at HIV rates in heterosexuals in Africa and you see a very different picture. Why don't we refer to the "lifestyle" of heterosexuals in Africa as having "extreme health risks"? Because it isn't the "heterosexual lifestyle" that is the problem in Africa.
Now the reason there are a lot of gay men today who are reckless has nothing to do with evolution. You can have lots of sex with lots of people and not be at a particularly high risk if you take precautions.
The reason is that gay people are taught from day one by society at large that we are worthless, evil, the cause of societies ills, and that we should die. When kids grow up hearing that they have a higher tendency to engage in self destructive behavior. It's the same reason why gay teens have a higher instance of suicide than straight teens. It isn't inherent to being gay. it is what you would expect from people who are constantly be told by society that they should just die already.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the self-destructive behaviors of many gay people, from suicide to drug use or reckless sexual behaviorist, is not inherent to being gay but inherent to be brainwashed into thinking they are worthless and deserve to have bad things happen to them.
Now the reason there are a lot of gay men today who are reckless has nothing to do with evolution. You can have lots of sex with lots of people and not be at a particularly high risk if you take precautions.
The reason is that gay people are taught from day one by society at large that we are worthless, evil, the cause of societies ills, and that we should die. When kids grow up hearing that they have a higher tendency to engage in self destructive behavior. It's the same reason why gay teens have a higher instance of suicide than straight teens. It isn't inherent to being gay. it is what you would expect from people who are constantly be told by society that they should just die already.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the self-destructive behaviors of many gay people, from suicide to drug use or reckless sexual behaviorist, is not inherent to being gay but inherent to be brainwashed into thinking they are worthless and deserve to have bad things happen to them.
108
@107 - in our current society, how can you tell that gay men are more reckless than straight men?
109
Gay men are reckless sexually because we can be, and because of what @107 states clearly. How many straight men does anyone know who *wouldn't* have all the sex with as many women as they could, if only women would open their legs for sex with the same eagerness that men haul out their dicks? Men *love* sex, and as much of it as they can get, but for half of humanity saying hold your horses, fella.
Someone above said it best with the idea that as GLBT's are more normalized and accepted, societal pressure will dictate their behavior. When you are a sexual outlaw, you do as you please. It is to society's advantage to come to terms with GLBT as another 'normal', and embrace us as is happening now.
Someone above said it best with the idea that as GLBT's are more normalized and accepted, societal pressure will dictate their behavior. When you are a sexual outlaw, you do as you please. It is to society's advantage to come to terms with GLBT as another 'normal', and embrace us as is happening now.
110
TL;DR but "...meh..." people like the original letter will matter less and less as things move on and we have to go into the fine print of equality between sexualities.
The point of the question will eventually be completely redundant since after a while people, maybe even people like him, will grasp that its as harmful to him/society/the world as interracial marriage, the right to vote for all and other things that came with complaints of "this is wrong!!!!!".
The point of the question will eventually be completely redundant since after a while people, maybe even people like him, will grasp that its as harmful to him/society/the world as interracial marriage, the right to vote for all and other things that came with complaints of "this is wrong!!!!!".
111
To CTW, I would simply say: and why should you hate them? Your "they're abonimable" opinion is just that, an opinion, a taste -- like not wanting to eat shrimp (as I don't; I find shrimp really disgusting). There's no reason why you should think so.
To me, it doesn't matter if being gay is unavoidable or a choice. But since gays aren't hurting anyone by being gay and engaging in consensual gay sex, why the heck should you hate them? That question I find much more difficult to answer than the one you ask.
To me, it doesn't matter if being gay is unavoidable or a choice. But since gays aren't hurting anyone by being gay and engaging in consensual gay sex, why the heck should you hate them? That question I find much more difficult to answer than the one you ask.
112
Lol... when my grandfather was growing up in Italy, they used to think being left handed was a sign of the devil (typical small catholic town at that time).
So the nuns used to actually tie his left hand behind his back to force him to write with his right hand.
So whenever I hear this nonsense about choosing to be gay, Im reminded of that.
So the nuns used to actually tie his left hand behind his back to force him to write with his right hand.
So whenever I hear this nonsense about choosing to be gay, Im reminded of that.
113
CTW,
I have no idea why you would choose to hate a group of people that pose no harm or threat to you. I do not consider affording people equal protection under civil law, rights, responsibilities, and taxation a threat. You think they're an abomination? Based off of what? A poor translation of ancient Hebrew? A need to see yourself as superior and deserving of special protections and acknowledgement from civil government? Perhaps all of the above? That is your opinion. Your opinion is not fact.
I wish there was a pill. A pill for people who choose to hate others. One that allows people the experience of stepping into another's shoes and nurtures compassion. Alas, there is no pill and it would be immoral to insist you take it. So I'm left to pity you for choosing hate and the vile bitterness, darkness that accompanies it. Tis an ugly prison you choose, but it is your choice.
I have no idea why you would choose to hate a group of people that pose no harm or threat to you. I do not consider affording people equal protection under civil law, rights, responsibilities, and taxation a threat. You think they're an abomination? Based off of what? A poor translation of ancient Hebrew? A need to see yourself as superior and deserving of special protections and acknowledgement from civil government? Perhaps all of the above? That is your opinion. Your opinion is not fact.
I wish there was a pill. A pill for people who choose to hate others. One that allows people the experience of stepping into another's shoes and nurtures compassion. Alas, there is no pill and it would be immoral to insist you take it. So I'm left to pity you for choosing hate and the vile bitterness, darkness that accompanies it. Tis an ugly prison you choose, but it is your choice.
114
@104
I refuse to justify my existence.A fabulous reason for ALL of us to ignore the increasingly violent emissions of SB.
115
@ 92, 93, thanks for rebutting Ken for me . I'm beginning to think that HE is the LW, since he displays about the same level of intelligence.
@ 97 Seriously, you need counselling. All that repressed sexuality has made your world-view somewhat unbalanced, to say the least. It appears that in your mind, you have become the whole world, probably because you never actually interact with it. Nothing you write ever makes sense. (And thanks Erica @ 101)
@ 97 Seriously, you need counselling. All that repressed sexuality has made your world-view somewhat unbalanced, to say the least. It appears that in your mind, you have become the whole world, probably because you never actually interact with it. Nothing you write ever makes sense. (And thanks Erica @ 101)
116
Anybody who argues that being gay is a choice is either in denial about their homosexuality or in denial about being bi. I say this as a straight man. I could not choose to be gay. I like women too much. And the thought of a cock in my mouth is gross. The way i see it, if I feel this strongly about it, and some other guy wants gay sex, they must feel just as strongly the opposite. If you think its a choice, then you probably are feeling attractions that I'm not.
The whole issue is largely irrelevant though. Consenting adults can do whatever the hell they please to each other. I don't care if its a choice or you are born that way. If you find somebody who agrees to fuck you, then why should anybody else get a say?
The whole issue is largely irrelevant though. Consenting adults can do whatever the hell they please to each other. I don't care if its a choice or you are born that way. If you find somebody who agrees to fuck you, then why should anybody else get a say?
117
Why I wouldn't take a pill to become straight: Because the actual sex act is the smallest and least important part of what it means to be gay. Because a pill that "corrected" my sexual attractions would also "correct" other facets of my character that would ultimately destroy me as an individual. Imagine taking a pill, going to bed, and waking up the next morning as someone else, someone you don't get to choose. You might wake up as Joseph Stalin, or as John Lennon, but you would NOT wake up as you. The "you-ness" of you would have been surgically removed, and replaced with other-ness. Someone you don't know, and maybe don't like. You'd be a Stepford Wife.
After I'd taken that pill, I think I'd probably look for another pill that would finish the job.
After I'd taken that pill, I think I'd probably look for another pill that would finish the job.
118
I just wish for a pill that makes people color blind and tolerant.
It is important to remember that gender identity and sexual orientation are innate. To restate it, who we love is inborn, but who we hate is a choice.
Peace.
It is important to remember that gender identity and sexual orientation are innate. To restate it, who we love is inborn, but who we hate is a choice.
Peace.
119
@108,
I didn't gay men were more reckless than straight men. I said that some gay men were reckless. I know that for a fact because I know a lot of gay men. I don't recall comparing gay men with straight men.
There is a subset of gay men who engage in very reckless behaviors. But that isn't because they are gay, and that isn't all gay men. But for those who are reckless I believe the reason for it is what I stated in my post @ 107.
I didn't gay men were more reckless than straight men. I said that some gay men were reckless. I know that for a fact because I know a lot of gay men. I don't recall comparing gay men with straight men.
There is a subset of gay men who engage in very reckless behaviors. But that isn't because they are gay, and that isn't all gay men. But for those who are reckless I believe the reason for it is what I stated in my post @ 107.
120
Is it possible that millions of years evolution have molded men and women to compliment one another, you know like a yin and yang type deal? Maybe the high risk behavior that many gay men engage in is the result of male sexuality freed from the calming influence of women?As a matter of opinion--that is, granting that I not a scientist of any stripe--this posit strikes me as unlikely; evolution does not "mold". It is not a goal-oriented process; it's a loose description of what transpires, not a fixed prescription for how we should behave. Does there appear to be a balancing effect between the the anything-goes pursuit of appetite practiced by (many, possibly most) young men and the more apprehensive, nuanced approach to sex practiced by (many, possibly most) women of the same age? Maybe; that seemed to be my experience during my very, very brief tenure as a young, single, het-leaning bisexual man. Of course, it's not just the choosier aspects of female sexuality that keep heterosexual men from settling in; after all, a straight man who's sexually hungry enough can always chase down the exceptions among women. We also have a traditional option of marriage, which comes with enough benefits of its own that, for some of us, "free agency" can seem less appealing by comparison. Until pretty recently, there was no comparable norm in the gay community to which to defer.
All of this is academic, of course, and one is lead to wonder what your vested interest is in casting ill-formed and ill-founded aspersions on a "gay lifestyle" that seems, at most, tangential to actual homosexuality.
If unsafe sex practices are equally common among heterosexuals and gay men, why is it that gay men have such a high rate of HIV infection?A few reasons. While unsafe sex practices as a percentage of all sexual activity are likely comparable in gay, heterosexual, and bisexual populations, gay men, as you and I seem more or less willing to agree, simply have more sex, probably because of the surplus of inflaming testosterone and absence of leavening estrogen in the mix. Perhaps more importantly, because the virus was originally introduced, in the U.S., via the gay population, the trajectory of spread could be reasonably expected to remain within those bounds; indeed, to expect otherwise is to suggest that a plurality of homosexuals live otherwise heterosexual lifestyles when not specifically (and, by implication, periodically) engaged in homosexual activity. Near as I can tell, this only bears out among the deeply closeted.
123
Wow, what a brainiac. But honestly I never really understood that whole born this way argument. So what if being gay was a choice, I still don't get what's wrong with choosing to be gay?
124
Also, Ken, aside from the philosophical problem I have with anthropomorphizing the mechanisms of evolution by attributing molding and "complementing" to its mechanisms--essentially back-door theism, akin to Locke's assertions about "Natural Law"--we also need to look at the fact that homosexuality appears to occur at nearly identical rates from culture to culture. That is, you're as likely to find folks engaging in homosexual activity in Iran as in the Netherlands (though we can be certain where they're more cautious about getting caught). Given that, it seems that a certain amount of imbalance--granting your premise arguendo, not because you've demonstrated its validity--lies within the evolutionary mechanism.
125
This douche bag's entire argument is stupid. Even if sexuality was a choice (and it's pretty obvious to anyone it's not), why would you choose to hate someone based solely on who they find attractive? It's my choice to find athletic men attractive. Would you hate me if I found portly men attractive? Or would you hate me if I found only short men attractive?
Take gender out of the equation and you're just a masogynistic prick.
And let's turn this question back around to you, CTK... If there was a pill that would make you gay, would you take it?
Take gender out of the equation and you're just a masogynistic prick.
And let's turn this question back around to you, CTK... If there was a pill that would make you gay, would you take it?
127
68, Straight men approach sex the same as gay men, only the object of their desire is different, but straight women do not, and thus put the breaks on straight men. The health risks are from promiscuity, not gay sex. Yes, gay men need to be more careful, (unacceptance and hate have caused many gay men to believe their lives aren't worth protecting. Gay men who are rejected by their families are at much higher risk than those who are accepted.) but they cannot choose to be straight. Trying to be straight is damaging to a gay person's mental health. You're comparison to obesity doesn't work. I can choose to eat properly. People don't have mental breakdowns from eating well. I can never choose to desire a women sexually.
128
@124 "homosexuality appears to occur at nearly identical rates from culture to culture. That is, you're as likely to find folks engaging in homosexual activity in Iran as in the Netherlands"
I doubt that is so. Homosexual desire might occur at identical rates from culture to culture. However I suspect those desires are gratified w/ a bit less regularity in places where getting caught w/ a dick in your mouth gets you stoned to death or beheaded or whatever.
I doubt that is so. Homosexual desire might occur at identical rates from culture to culture. However I suspect those desires are gratified w/ a bit less regularity in places where getting caught w/ a dick in your mouth gets you stoned to death or beheaded or whatever.
129
I doubt that is so.Your doubt doesn't even amount to an assertion; I cannot argue against it because it is not an argument.
Homosexual desire might occur at identical rates from culture to culture. However I suspect those desires are gratified w/ a bit less regularity in places where getting caught w/ a dick in your mouth gets you stoned to death or beheaded or whatever.As a percentage of all sexual activity, homosexual activity (i.e., gratification of homosexual desire) occurs at comparable rates in relation to heterosexual activity. Now, it's plausible that there may be less (reported) sexual activity overall in places where it can get you beheaded, since such cultures tend to be similarly conservative about all sexuality. But proscription of homosexuality, even if it takes capital form, does not appear to make either fewer homosexuals or less homosexual activity as a percentage of all sexual activity. Which suggests both that the "molding" done by evolution already includes a fairly immutable provision for a certain portion of the population to be sexually responsive in a way that is non-procreative and resistant to social engineering AND that allowing those whose proclivities of that type are not, in any way, harmful to non-participants (or even to participants, if undertaken responsibly) to participate in social institutions as equal partners does not appear to increase incidence.
I would also say that defining homosexuality according to homosexual desire misses the point; after all, I'd say considerably more people experience homosexual desire than ever participate in homosexual acts, let alone participate in such with any regularity. The shortage, or even absence, of heterosexual desire is what strikes me as significant, at least with regards to the issue of chosen vs. immutable traits.
130
@50 ... not to play devil's advocate or anything, but they are called antidepressants, and lots of people take them to get over grief. they shouldn't, but they do.
131
"There are blacks who will state something to the following effect: "If I could take a pill that would make me white, I wouldn't take it!" In other words, even if science could give you the option to change, you would still choose blackness! Since this seems to be the prevailing view of all blacks, why would I possibly be wrong to hate and despise the likes of you?"
132
Letter Writer could have made his argument a lot more succinctly:
"Because I hate and despise you, and because you won't change in order to accommodate my hate, how can I possibly be wrong to hate and despise you?"
Because attitude like that makes you a complete asshole, and logic like that makes you a complete moron.
"Because I hate and despise you, and because you won't change in order to accommodate my hate, how can I possibly be wrong to hate and despise you?"
Because attitude like that makes you a complete asshole, and logic like that makes you a complete moron.
134
CTK:
I would not take a pill to make me straight because I swore a vow to my wife that I would love her, support her, and be with her as long as I lived. And I refuse to be forsworn just because it would make you happy.
I would not take a pill to make me straight because I swore a vow to my wife that I would love her, support her, and be with her as long as I lived. And I refuse to be forsworn just because it would make you happy.
135
@130, I'm not sure it's your place to tell grieving people how they should or should not deal with their emotional state.
136
@129 "As a percentage of all sexual activity, homosexual activity (i.e., gratification of homosexual desire) occurs at comparable rates in relation to heterosexual activity. Now, it's plausible that there may be less (reported) sexual activity overall in places where it can get you beheaded, since such cultures tend to be similarly conservative about all sexuality. But proscription of homosexuality, even if it takes capital form, does not appear to make either fewer homosexuals or less homosexual activity as a percentage of all sexual activity."
And you know all of this how? Nobody gets stoned to death for committing adultery in the USA, but researchers still have a hard time measuring the frequency with which Americans cheat on their spouses. Your telling me that there is reliable scientific data regarding the prevalence of homosexuality in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia? Link, please.
And you know all of this how? Nobody gets stoned to death for committing adultery in the USA, but researchers still have a hard time measuring the frequency with which Americans cheat on their spouses. Your telling me that there is reliable scientific data regarding the prevalence of homosexuality in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia? Link, please.
137
I can't think of any reason why this guy shouldn't keep hating, despising and fantasising about homosexuals.
138
hmmmm. I'm straight, and if I was could take a pill that would make me gay, I wouldn't take it, so by the LW's logic, that means that being straight is really just a choice.
My. That really opens up a whole new world for me - I think I just became bi-curious. Thanks, CTK!
My. That really opens up a whole new world for me - I think I just became bi-curious. Thanks, CTK!
139
Your telling me that there is reliable scientific data regarding the prevalence of homosexuality in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia?From what I can tell, all understanding we have of sexual behavior relies, in some measure, on self-reporting. Which makes it suspect, of course. It seems to me, though, that in all likelihood, actual levels of homosexual activity in violent theocracies would exceed what's reported; I'm not sure how you would successfully argue otherwise.
141
hahahaha, thank you for giving me a good laugh, your post is ridiculous, if we were all born homosexual and there was a magic pill to make us hetero would you take it? im a straight male that thinks simply this, if you love someone, why deny them to be together? when you can answer that question ill listen to you. Next time you love someone, leave them, simply because you're supposed to, that is the "social norm" so please, shut up, and let the human race keep evolving, we would be more than happy to leave you behind. you are the result of 4 billion years of evolution, please act like it, thank you.
142
If I was a black woman who was given a magical pill that will magically turn me white, I would never choose to take it. Does that mean I chose to be black?
143
Whenever I hear someone roll out that tired wad: "it's a choice" I always nod my head and ask what drove them to finally stop sucking the peen and live a moral life....that causes stunned momentary paralysis so that I can make a quick get away.
144
You should stop hating so hard, because it makes us suspect you're just a self-hating closet case.
I bet you hate gays sooo much you watch a lot of gay porn to prove you still hate it.
Maybe you wank off to disgusting fags on webcams, because they disgust you so much.
Maybe you even hate-fuck gay prostitutes!
I bet you hate gays sooo much you watch a lot of gay porn to prove you still hate it.
Maybe you wank off to disgusting fags on webcams, because they disgust you so much.
Maybe you even hate-fuck gay prostitutes!
145
1- the book offer speculation and conjecture but no compelling evidence.
2- if homosexuality is a genetic defect then it can be cured.
Type 1 diabetes has a biological basis. We seek to cure it, not celebrate it.....
2- if homosexuality is a genetic defect then it can be cured.
Type 1 diabetes has a biological basis. We seek to cure it, not celebrate it.....
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