If you settle now, you will regret it for the rest of your life. This is the time in your life when you are supposed to find out who and what makes you happy and fulfilled. If you can open things up with your girlfriend, then great. If not, it is better to let her go now, so you can explore with a clear conscience, than break promises later that you can't keep. Be kind, but be honest with her. Good luck.

Gosh Dan, I wonder: do you ever say "sometimes we just can't get every damn thing we want" to people?

Because he wants:
1) to stay with his girlfriend whom he loves
2) to have sex with men
3) for he and his girlfriend as a couple to have sex with another couple
4) to have threesomes
5) to have sex with other women

And all I could think of as he began to say how cheated he feels for having all that "fun stuff" "snatched away" was the Rolling Stones' song, You Can't Always Get What You Want, which, coincidentally, is what I used to sing a bar of when my young children whined for everything under the sun.

I'm not against open relationships. But sometimes when I read letters like this one I want to say "join the club, buckeroo. We all want to have all the fun in the world. We all want tickets to the all-you-can-eat sexual smorgasbord. But kind of like women's rights to their own reproductive lives, it's not guaranteed us by the flippin' Constitution."

The girlfriend has thought about it and doesn't want it. Either he deals with that or he breaks up with her. He may not find another partner who's ready to give him complete sexual carte blanche, though. So I think he should be reminded of that, probably more gently than I am doing now.

Great advice.

Think of a relationship as a dual price of admission: you may pay her price and have less of an open relationship now than you'd like, she may pay your price and be open more than she'd like.

You can be asymmetrical by agreement in degrees of openness. And it may well change, up and down, with time if you build a life together.

On average it's easier negotiating an open relationship in a male-male than female-male relationship.

@2
Actually the song is titled
"(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction"

@4: Maybe Keith and Mick should write to Dan.

caution&daring @4 — ?

Yes, "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" is titled "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction."

On the other hand, “You Can’t Always Get What You Want” is titled “You Can’t Always Get What You Want.”

Which song were you referring to?

@Alison Cummins: I interpreted caution&daring @4 to mean that if you can't always get what you want, you can't get no satisfaction.

Anyway, I laughed.

Now I’m thinking of the entire Rolling Stones’ oeuvre as being about negotiating an open relationship . . .

@1's advice to break up & live a little -- maybe, maybe not.

Sometimes young love -- they started at 21 -- lasts decades, and breaking up (or just settling for and lumping it) isn't the answer.

But the fact that he had never experienced sex or relationships with guys before, plus his wording in the letter, does perhaps suggests he needs a bit more experience and this relationship might not be "the one" (rounded up).

Both songs work but I think that "(No) Satisfaction" works a bit better since it is more dismal, more final..."no satisfaction."

"You Can't.." suggests that putting "wants" aside you'll be satisfied at some level of what you "need".

The latter is a much more optimistic song.

Of course I admit that I have not studied the lyrics as closely as I should nor done the essential Mudedean linguistic syntactical analysis. (Sorry.)

nocute @8, not so much with Under My Thumb...unless that's the open-relationship-negotiating totally tanking.

What the LW clearly needs is a bi guy threesome. After frank discussion, and time to let things develop, ferment, hopefully become less scary for being more familiar [à la Dan's advice], the right bi guy could be just the thing.

At some level they both want to fuck other guys. If her misgivings are coming from his 'going off' and fucking people, they just need to fuck other guys together.

[Not volunteering, just plugging the brand.]

@nocutename, he wouldn't be Dan would he, if he told people that..
He'd be some straight advice giver- enjoyed your comments though.

I agree with both Dan and nocute -- if you bring it up again (and you will), understand that may spell the end of your relationship. And you may never find someone you like as much who will want the same thing you want.

That said, my advice is to talk about it in bed for a few months before reopening the topic seriously. Tell her "it got me so excited, thinking about you with other people! Can we fantasize together about what that would be like?" If that goes well, with fun stories shared and her participating and getting off on the stories, then the next step would be fantasizing together about you seeing other people and coming home to her. I think a few months of this play will give your insight into whether she's likely to be open to being open in the future.

I think his mistake was that he didn't respond with, "what do you mean maybe this isn't the right time - why not? When would be the right time?" They clearly need to discuss it further.

How about seeing if there's any such thing as a local polyamorous community where you live? Most cities and plenty of smaller towns have something along those lines. Seattle has everything from a monthly poly potluck, to poly game nights, to poly brunches, to poly relationship workshops, to family-friendly poly events, to an annual PolyCamp frolic in the woods. It's really common for newbies and just-thinking-about-it folks to show up at these events, and in most cases they're totally welcome. If you don't know where else to look, Google is your friend--search "polyamory" and maybe the name of your city (or the nearest one if you live in the sticks) and see what comes up.

See if your girlfriend is willing to go and just hang out and talk with some people who are making open relationships work. She can ask questions and see that poly folks are probably not all that scary or different from you and her. It's a fairly safe way to help her get more comfortable with the idea, without diving in to sex with other people right off. Makes the first step a little less gigantic.

I'm in a sufficiently whimsical mood to go with the suggestion of my Crystal Ball. If LW has been in full-on I Would Never *Want to* Do Anything You Weren't Comfortable With mode for the entire duration of the relationship, then I'll go with a guess that GF's idea of an open relationship was one in which he would quickly come to embrace the Inner Cuckold she took him to have. During their conversation, she saw that, instead of Shaun Wallace, she'd unleashed Mark Labbett, and now wants to put the beast back into the cage (and I'm inclined to agree with Ms Cute that he's giving her excellent reason to be apprehensive).

I am almost ready to put these two into the Should Be Forced To Enter A Covenant Marriage box, but not quite yet.

Ms Lava - Do you assert that sexual orientation has anything to do with whether any human being thinks anyone *can* or *cannot* have everything s/he wants? That's almost a charming thought, but I'd need you to show your work on that.

Open relationships as a concept sure are popular. I do wonder what the percentage of success is in the real world. I'd bet most attempts at open relationships wind up train wrecks. Seems to me like one of those situations that if you are crazy enough to try it, you aren't mature enough to succeed. At least for straights.

Mr.Ven: Oh my god: " Should Be Forced To Enter A Covenant Marriage box"--I spit water at my computer.

I can't speak for LavaGirl, but I interpreted her "straight" to mean, "ordinary, commonplace, not sex-positive," rather than having anything to do with Dan's (or anyone else's) sexual orientation.

[for the record, when I started #16, the thread had only reached through #10]

Mr O - It was a weird letter in that it started out very much along the lines of LW's just coming into his sexuality and never having had the chance to do anything MM, and then he completely lost the thread later on. It almost felt as if he were trying to sneak in the "other girls".

By all means, plug the brand. You'll never sell me on it, but it's a pleasure to watch such an artist at work.

Ms Cute - Well, that's why I asked. Only now you've led the witness.

Mr ven. @20, cheers.

Ms Erica - As we have no evidence that the thought of her with other people is a turn-on for him, I'd tone down the approach. He shouldn't lead with a phantom Inner Cuckold, only with a real one should he have it. Otherwise, your suggested course seems quite reasonable.

I agree more talking should happen, but I suggest he should be frank (if he hasn't already) about having thought about it before she said anything.

And to the people saying "she's said no, the possibility is closed" -- I'm not saying bringing it up is a binding contract or anything, but she did bring it up. There's something in it she wants too.

I'm not sure we're at ultimatum time yet, but he sure needs to be honest that he really wants it, and that he wants the conversation to continue. (It took a really long time to negotiate a poly relationship with my husband, and it is worth the patience!)

@22 Well, you sold me.

I think both of these people in the relationship should just break up and date other people (and have all the sex adventures they can SAFELY get into.) As #2 said so very well, they want to stay together AND have the adventures they never (in their very protected young lives) knew they could have. So just split, since both of them are feeling a bit suffocated now that they have moved in together, have fun. Then maybe when they are ready to settle (in about 5 years when they really ARE 25--yes, I think this guy added a few years on--they get together, compare notes and decide what they REALLY want and where each other fits in.

Or they just stay together and save lots of money (and if hey are smart avoid pregnancies) and use the money to buy the divorce lawyers they will need a couple years when they have enough of this starter marriage.

OR they decide to stay together and 35 years from now, SHE writes to Dan about how she just read 50 shades of Grey and now she wants to explore her kinkier side...

Yes, I am assuming they plan to marry but otherwise he would have dumped her already.

@17, Mr Venn, you'd need me to show my work on that? Which work would that be- my hidden thesis?
Heard a song , while I was shopping today- thought it might join the song list- " Kids in America"..
Does sexual orientation have anything to do with believing one can have anything one wants? That your qu Mr Venn?
Maybe..It does appear a lot of homosexual men, are comfortable with multiple partners. But hey, I was pregnant with my first child, three months after I lost my virginity. My experience of sex in life has been pretty constrained..
I'd like to ask this young man why did he start to live with this woman if he had such sexual freedom fantasies going on?
Personally, I couldn't think of anything worse than living with someone who was off fucking other people. But, guess it's all about what you get used to..

Me Venn, I used the word " straight" as in conservative

AllisonM,

It depends on a lot of things. I’m almost completely lacking in discretion generally and am utterly unable to lie, so my partners are confident that I’ll never sneak around on them. They know I couldn’t if I tried. Even if they’ve always thought of themselves as temperamentally monogamous they seem to tolerate my non-monogamy quite well and I think this trust is a big part of that.

Another is that I’m open about my exes, the fact that they’ve been both men and women and that I’m still in touch with some of them. I don’t attract very jealous partners.

Another is that I’m pretty intractable. My partners know that if they can’t get me to put the dishes away* that there is no way they could get me to sit uncomplainingly on unmet needs for years. I’m clear that these are needs, not wants.

Another is that I ask my primary partner to meet my needs. I only seek out other sexual partners when for some reason that isn’t possible.

Another is that what I want isn’t actually that difficult. The usual pattern is that when my primary partner and I are in different cities we are both welcome to get it on with someone else. (I’m more likely to take advantage of the opportunity. My partners have always been more monogamous than I am.) I’m not spending time away from home that I wouldn’t be otherwise.

Another is that I take my partner’s feelings and concerns seriously. They aren’t obstacles, they aren’t things that need to be fixed. They’re important to me.

Another is that I am very very grateful when I get home, and show it.

I’ve been not particularly attached to strict monogamy since I was thirteen and living on a different continent from my boyfriend. We were together ten years, from the time I was twelve; we were physically apart about half that time. I’ve continued to be pragmatic and to learn my limits since then, which makes thirty-eight years of practice.

I can’t speak for other people but for me it’s been quite straightforward. (Pragmatism is like that.) No train wrecks. No seeking out extra-special compliant/ kinky/ cuckolding partners. Just keeping it simple, honest and respectful.

Yeah, I’m a little crazy. Not in the wild, adventurous, thrill-seeking, distractible sense (I’m actually quite conservative) just the mentally interesting sense. I have a lot of respect for what matters to people and for their suffering. I think it’s helped me in the maturity department.

I don’t expect that most other people are like me. If you can’t imagine a loving, stable relationship that isn’t completely monogamous then an open relationship is not for you. I can’t imagine either stuffing unmet needs or walking away from a commitment to someone I love, or denying a partner the connection and pleasure they want or need just because it can’t be with me, so a strictly monogamous relationship is not for me.

*In case you are wondering what kind of selfish, inconsiderate partner I am, while I do very little housework I recognize that I need to pull my weight. So I pay a housekeeper. Pragmatism, not guilt or failure. I’ve been married for eleven years so it seems to be working. Still, you and I would probably be very unhappy married to one another. And we aren’t!

Ophian @11: I reserved the vacation package with your brand well in advance of the advertised special here. Not exclusively, mind you. Just leave a mint on the pillow for me. :)

Classic conflict-avoidant male - nice guy, places her needs before his own, avoids inconvenient truths at all costs, even those that need to be addressed. Girlfriend is sexually unsatisfied as a result, and dreams of fucking other men.

This relationship needs a big dose of honesty from both parties.

It's hard to open a relationship while worrying that the other person, your beloved, is going to be sulking at home the whole evening. That's why I recommend trying to eroticize the whole shebang, on both sides. If that's not possible, and one person already has cold feet, well, I wouldn't be optimistic.

Since she brought up the open question, maybe she has someone specific she was thinking of being with?

@33 (literatevixen): That's what I was thinking. And then she decided she didn't want to open that particular can of worms.

They're young; they've been together a long time (the lw's 25 now and has been with his gf since he was between 20 and 21); maybe it's time for them to break up and get to sow some wild oats.

I don't think everyone can handle non-monogamy, especially when they're young. The lw thinks he can, but his girlfriend doesn't think she can.

So this is perhaps a time to say let's take a break and check back in 6 months or a year.

Maybe the girlfriend "brought up her own desire to have sex with other people" to get out of the relationship, but it gave him a boner. So she dropped that ruse.

Or, more charitably, a person can be very positive on a topic until their partner is even more excited about it. Then the first person typically drops back to neutral or negative on the topic. Almost anyone goes into open relationships with some trepidation and with the unconscious fear that two affirming people - no one being cautious or hesitant - will go scary fast and far.

The way to get what you want is to appear neutral about the outcome. The way to be happy with the outcome is to BE neutral.

It's pretty common in opening-the-relationship discussions for one partner to be gung-ho until they realize the other partner is also on board. Wouldn't surprise me if she suddenly discovered she had a double standard.

Ms Lava - When I put on my Cross-Examiner hat, I'm thinking of Leo McKern as Rumpole (a role to which I'd aspire should I ever have the figure for it).

Sex is over-rated.

Just get over it and you'll be happier, less dependent on others (that especially goes for men - most women just use/allow sex to get something) and spend a lot less.

the GF has NO IDEA that LW is so excited about this possibility, b/c he never told her! maybe she decided against it b/c he was trying so hard to downplay his excitement that he seemed uninterested. LW: just tell her how you feel and see what she says.

I don't have much to add to this; he should just end it and go find out what he wants. I don't think Dan's advice to roll it out with her is bad, but mainly because i suspect that will very quickly lead to the same result: the end of this relationship, and some freedom to experiment, for both of them. Then, if it's true love, they get back together later.

I honestly suspect she was looking for a soft way to slowly and gently exit the relationship anyway; she wants to fuck other people, but doesn't want to break his heart; if he confesses he's also wanting to explore - even more so with guys - she's outta there. I don't really believe it's a case of being scared he's ready to roll too fast; I think she's trying to get him to dump her and giving him an open relationship is actually going to keep him around. It's not some cuck fantasy she's got, and he should spare himself the indignity of being dumped for revealing his homophilic desires and just say "wow, maybe we ought to just officially end us and go explore" - treat this the way Dan talks about treating going off to college or year abroad...just end it.

The only argument for rolling it out, to my thinking, is getting used to the process of telling a partner you're bi and that you want an open relationship.

I wonder, did it not occur to anyone to say, "be careful what you wish for"? Just as being single probably wasn't some non-stop orgy, being in an open relationship doesn't mean you're going to get all the sex and threesomes and exploration you want. In fact, it often results in the woman being totally busy and the man hearing crickets. So, while I believe in open relationships, I think he might want to be realistic about what happens next. Unless he's hot and surrounded already by people who are down with open relationships, it's not likely his every fantasy is just waiting for him.