Don't negotiate with terrorists. If their tantrums get any good result (for them), it will only encourage their bad behavior. They'll probably come around eventually, but if not, good riddance.

Or: Good evening, assholes. If you continue your assholic behavior, you will be minus not just your child and your future in-laws but also your future grandchildren for the rest of your asshole lives. Your call.

Is dad-in-law-to-be pissed because he's jealous of his own son? In other words, does he think it "unfair" that his son gets to be both openly gay-- with a partner he actually wants to fuck-- AND have kids on top of it?

I imagine if my kids were able to have all the success they want in life while simultaneously never working and just fucking around all day, I might be a little perturbed. I don't think it would rise to the level of not going to their weddings, though.

@3, yep. I say leave out the "fuck the fuck off." Just invite them to the wedding, invite them to the eventual baby welcoming ceremonies, and keep going to monthly dinners together as long as they act polite in front of you. Your fiance should handle their abuse by saying goodbye and hanging up as soon as they say anything negative. Don't engage in discussion about your choices, just treat them like decent parents / in-laws whenever they give you the chance to treat them that way. If they can't drop the abuse when he hangs up on them, then he'll have to stop taking their calls until they send an apology. If they start acting abusive at the monthly dinners, then those too will have to end, until they send an apology.

As for this question: "do you think that a grandparent who believes [this crap] can ever really be trusted as a good and loving grandparent?" -- when the kid is an infant / toddler, there's no need for unsupervised visits. As the kid gets to be older, ask your kid to let you know if the grandparents ever say or do anything that makes the kid uncomfortable. That and keeping your own eyes open are probably the best ways to know whether these people are trustworthy or not.

GTB They are attempting to blackmail you and your finance. Don't fall for it.

The father-in-law's sexuality is irrelevant to the assholery and appropriate response.

Just tell have the finance tell his parents that he will no longer accept hurtful, homophobic rants from them, hang up if they start, every time, and don't call them. Make them call if they want to communicate, and hang up if they don't communicate without hatefulness. Do this over and over until they either stop abusing you and your fiancé or stop calling him. Either way, you both win. Right now, they must imagine that harsh abuse of their child will force their son to toe their line, as though he was still a minor who had to fear their rejection. Make them fear your rejection instead, or free yourself and your guy from the need to be around their hatefulness.

@6
In your case it may be that you lost out by not missing your grandparents (on one side).
But in my case, once I found out what they were like when I was an adult, I realized that I had lucked out.

I don't feel that I am doing my kid any favors if I teach him that it is okay for other people, including his grandparents, to abuse me. What does it tell him about what he should accept from people who claim to love him? What does it teach him about how he should treat me? Or his potential future girlfriends, boyfriends, spouses, children, friends, pets, you name it?

Total estrangement is of course the nuclear option, but I feel very comfortable saying "you will treat me and my family with as much politeness as you would use to talk with the person who cuts your hair or bags your groceries. If you're not feeling up to that (rather low) bar, then we'll look forward to seeing you another time." Repeat as necessary. Go home early, say goodbye and hang up the phone as necessary, and otherwise decline to engage. Either they'll decide to act like civilized people or they'll keep acting like jerks--but the choice is theirs.

@6: I didn't really know any of my grandparents, as they were either abusive or criminally neglectful. Didn't impact me much-- my parents just surrounded us with other adults who loved us and looked out for us. It may take a village to raise a child, but it doesn't matter who's in the village so long as they're supportive.

@6&8,
I too come from a family where one set of grandparents was estranged. My parents are also of two different denominations, and one set of grandparents did not approve, and once they were married, did not speak to the family for 25 years. I never met them until I was in my early 20s.

At times it was a little odd as a kid, knowing there was a set of grandparents out there that existed that I never met. But since I didn't know them, I never really missed them. Knowing of their existence was sort of an abstract thing that had little personal meaning for me.

As a young adult, I had a need to try to track them down and meet them, maybe like an adopted child feeling a need to meet their birth parents. I finally did, and it turned out that grandmother was a complete bitch. It was probably just as well that I never knew them growing up.

TLDR: if the grandparents decide they don't approve and don't want to be part of your life, that's their problem. Don't worry about it. Get married, adopt your kids, and they can piss up a rope if they don't like it. Your kid(s) will be fine.

@7: I disagree. While GTB certainly shouldn't put up with their shit, FIL must be feeling that he got completely fucked by being born too early to benefit from gay rights. That's an entirely understandable feeling, and GTB and hubby may want to grant FIL some leeway while he works through it.

Do not let their hangups affect your decisions. Invite all the relatives and let them decide one by one whether or not to come. Best-case scenario is that, in a few years, the parents-in-law will adore their grandkids, bio or not, and wish they hadn't said any of those things. Making as few changes as possible will help with that.

My parents had a similar reaction back in 1971, when my white sister got pregnant with an African-American man. All hell broke loose -tears, rants, denunciations. My parents did not attend her wedding - nobody did. I can only imagine how all alone my sister felt. However, that beautiful baby boy was beamed into their hearts, and they accepted the marriage, and loved that child with all their hearts, as they did with my sisters next 4 interracial babies. I'm proud of my parents for letting love prevail after their initial fear. Race never once interfered with their love of the children Did I mention we lived in Wyoming? On a farm 50 miles from Bumfuck, not in Casper or Cheyenne.

I also think my sister's experience paved the way for my own coming out being not so traumatic. As my mother put it, "I'm shocked, but not surprised."

M? Tor - It may indeed have been the influence of the liberal bourgeois values of major cosmopolitan places such as Casper that brought your parents around to seeing the progressive virtue in unencumbering themselves of the Sin of Paul--not unlike a Tennessee Williams heroine struggling to maintain both pish and posh in the same sartorial statement whilst on her homestead.

And of course it could be different in your kenning, but is is enough to give one pause in reconnoitering this situation, as it were.

@16 My sister went through something similar with her Jewish parents-in-law. She’s an atheist and wouldn’t convert, but promised to have a Jewish home when they had kids. They still refused to attend the wedding — not one of her husband’s family came. They had a son, she went through the conversion classes to convert the baby but not herself. They still wasn’t enough for them, but when my brother-in-law showed up at the door with their grandson, they let him in. Little by little, as they saw that my sister and her husband observed the high holidays and attended synagogue, they softened. Her father-in-law was the more hard-line of the two, but when he was diagnosed with prostate cancer there was a reconciliation. After he died, my sister and her mother-in-law developed a warm relationship.

So it’s quite likely that when the European in-laws (I bet they’re French) see them behaving like ordinary parents, and especially if their son is the biological father, his mother at least will come around.

Yo, Dan? You didn't answer the P.S. Though I think I know the answer.

Completely ignore his rants as if they never happened. Make your plans and live your life as if Dad hadn't said a thing. His ranting at you is a desperate attempt to exert control over you. To what end is unclear, but the bottom line is that he has no power in this situation. Zero. And he knows it, which is probably why he is being so vicious, because he is desperate. So, go on with your life with that in mind. He is completely powerless in this situation. Do your thing, your way, and invite him to participate to whatever level you feel like, while giving him zero input. That doesn't mean you have to put up with the abuse, but it does mean you have your wedding, and invite whoever the fuck you want. Include him if you want; personally I would put him on the guest list just like the rest of the relatives, to drive home the point that he doesn't get to control the guest list AT ALL, not even himself. His power in this situation consists entirely of whether he elects to participate or not. Nothing more. Adopt your kids, live your life, and don't give him any control over it.

When Idiot Dad realizes he is cutting himself off from his grandkids for absolutely zero return in terms of power over you, he will eventually figure out that as far as your life goes, he is along for the ride, not the driver.

Congratulations, GTB.. I'm assuming you are both adults? You love each other , and will be starting a family together?
Focus on that.. Fill the space so cleanly and clearly with
The life decisions you two are making together, as adults- that the negative noise and fear coming from your future- in -laws, will not be
A big issue. They come to the wedding with love and acceptance and joy and celebration/ or they don't come.
They welcome your children the same way/ or they don't see them. Encourage your partner to give them NO room to involve themselves in what is really none of their business..

If the parents are French, I know what's bothering them.

You might know France recognized same-sex marriage a short while ago. Well, Catholics were incensed about it, since homophobia is pretty big among the Church, and the higher you go on the hierarchy the strongest it is.

But, alas for them, the majority of French, though Catholic baptized, is actually quite atheist and never goes to church. And the majority of French nowadays have gay friends or know of everyday gay people, who are quite decent and normal people, and the majority finds homophobia absolutely abhorrent - even more abhorrent is homophobia from the religious types, because we French strongly resent that religious types should have any say over what happens in our beds.

So the Catholic and bourgeois types went searching for as many reasons as they could to derail homosexual civil marriage.

Would you believe it, they claimed that "marriage" was a word from Mary of their religion, and that this word could not be defamed, by being used for homosexuals. The thing is, in the French revolution it was decided that the legally binding marriage was the civil one, "in front of the mayor", and that no religious marriage could happen "in front of the priest" before the civil one was done. Currently most people forego the religious one ; the civil one is quite nice, in the best decorated place of the town, there is a lot of talking and it's quite a nice ceremony in fact. So, we've had civil marriages for 200 years now, and telling us that our civil marriages are somehow connected to Holy Mary of the Catholics, that didn't fly very well with the majority of French.

So then, what was left to them ? Saying that kids would be hurt by "the lie" of being adopted by gay parents. That's their last line. The hierarchy has thoroughly indoctrinated its catholic followers to say that "lying to kids about who your parents are is abusing them !". So they really believe it, now.

22 cont'd

In France, there are two types of adoption : "adoption plénière" and "adoption simple". When a child is born, it's issued a birth act, mentioning its biological parents. When adopted, either an act of adoption is added (adoption simple), or the original act of birth is destroyed and another act of birth, undistinguishable from an original act of birth, is issued with the adoptive parents on it (adoption plénière).

That's how adoption has always worked for mixed-sex couples.

Well, the core of the Catholics' actual complaint is this issue of a civil act of birth mentioning same-sex parents. They say : it's a lie, can't happen, it's wrong, and they're dead set against having that ever happen. That's what their hierarchy threatens them with happening : all their sense of right and wrong go awol when they think of it.

Two ways out : either you say to the parents-in-law : "Oh, don't worry, we utterly respect the right of our children to know from which birth parent they came, we'll only do an 'adoption simple', is that all right with you ?". Then, they'll have no standing point to object to your adopting and raising children.

But there are consequences too about inheritance with 'adoption simple', so you might prefer 'adoption plénière'.

But there is a way out as well. Tell them : "Hey, we'll do an adoption plénière like so many opposite-sexers do. You know, adoption plénière by opposite sexers is a lie too, since the child is being led to believe it was genetically born from those two people when in fact it wasn't. Worse than that, it's a believable, thus undetectable, lie. We won't lie to the child as much as opposite-sexers routinely do, with our adoption plénière, since with sex-ed the child will be very aware that it must have come from a female's womb, and it's obvious we two don't have one. So, we'll lie to our child a lot less than opposite-sexers do, and you've never had any quarry with opposite-sexers lying to their adoptive children about their biological origin, have you ? So, until you go and openly campain for 'adoption plénière' to be banned for both opposite-sexers and same-sexers, we won't believe you when you say that the right of the child not to be lied at about its birth is what motivates you. You know, we don't want hypocrits in our child's life !"

Good luck.

I'm for the fuck-the-fuck-off option because it made me laugh out loud. It's one of those expressions I wish I'd been the inventor of - like 'klaatu-barrada-nicto.".

The father-in-law understandably wants to believe that the bourgeois values he sacrificed his own (probable) true desires and identity to years ago were of utmost importance. Now he needs to realize that those values never had intrinsic merit - they were simply the rules he had to follow to maintain his social status and privilege, to avoid rocking the boat or offending anyone. His decades' worth of internalized fear of "what will people think" is the real issue- and happily for everyone, it's likely way out of proportion to how people would actually respond today. It will just take some courage to come out as parents of a gay son, just as it probably took for the son.

Dan should email the LW a link to the savage love stranger blog: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…

I spent years reading savage love in the village voice before I realized Dad had his own daily blog in Seattle and the comments on it are a goldmine expanding on his answers and sometimes providing a counterpoint or stuff he forgot from some erudite and loyal fans.

Case in point the comments so far: what Dan said PLUS no unsupervised visits until the grandparents prove themselves sane. See also all the comments above from now-adults who had absent nut case grandparents due to race/religion nuts -- most are just fine with it and feel they lucked out on the drama, a few feel they missed out. Bottom line REVISE what Dan said -- do NOT say fuck off, instead say stay the fuck away unless you are being a decent human being and responsible grand parents. That way you keep re-opening the door once or twice a year as people can always change, send them the latest pics and b-day party images, and if not, close it fast so you and future kid(s) don't get treated like doormats. Plus, unless you are rich already or live in some countries in Europe, university will be hella expensive in 18 years, so having grandparents with assets who can help out as the bourgeois grandparents usually do will be helpful to your kids' future lives. Not essential, not worth drama, but worth keeping a door open, in addition to emotional reasons. Good luck LW if you read this!

Ms Sissou - Many thanks for your information. And, as you point out in your adoption post, this is one area where there isn't a closet option.
***

I wonder, while Mr Savage was cute about it, whether the question of issue has any real legs here.

Also, I thank Mr Savage for beginning the answer with congratulations on the impending nuptials. Perhaps the point is a small one, but maybe it's a sort of sideways equivalent to the Bechdel test. Quite a few Lesser Advisers (including at least one for whom Mr Savage has expressed considerable admiration) are, if not completely heteroexclusive in such congratulations, at least remarkably less consistent when the wedding-to-be is FF or MM.

@22: Thank you for the informative post.

It's funny how conservatives around the world cook up various reasons that all lead to the same place: fucking over gay people. Kinda like how they cook up various reasons that all lead to fucking over poor people (e.g., "trickle down," "job creators," "tea party," etc.) Why don't they just admit that they will always, always be in favor of keeping power in the hands of rich people belonging to majority demographics, and thus fucking over everyone else?

A friend of mine's words to his homophobic mother: You need a son a hell of a lot more right now than I need a mother.

The fuck-the-fuck-off option can seem a non-option when you're feeling vulnerable and WANTING to have your family involved in your life. If that's the case right now, just keep that knowlege in your back pocket and focus on the softer track of politely ignoring the bullshit. If that doesn't work, the next step would be to politely-but-firmly take a stand. Not ultimatum territory, but stating clearly that you love them dearly and want them in your lives, but under no circumstances will tolerate x,y,z behaviors. Then, if all else fails, tell them to knock it the fuck off, or fuck the fuck off. That'll bring 'em around, especially if the kid is already in the picture - grandkids are the ultimate leverage. Good luck!

I wrote a long comment at 7:30 this morning, only to see now that it got eaten by the internet!
Dang it.

Oh well.

Mazel Tov on the wedding. Stay out and loud and happy and refuse to be made to feel humiliated. Hopefully the in-laws will come around and love that child of yours, but if not, it's their loss. You will have your family and your child will have her loving, enthusiastic grandparents. Also you never know what time will bring. I'd recommend being open to graciously allowing repentant grandparents to be part of their grandchild's life if it takes them quite some time to realize what idiots they're currently being.

Have a beautiful wedding day, free from stress, and filled with joy.

@vennominon and #29

You're welcome. I had to dig into this shit to try to make my otherwise progressive Catholic mother understand that gay marriage was not the end of the world as she's known it. It's depressing.

LW, my adult sons, if I ever inquire about the state of their love lives, tell me" it's none of your business", my adult daughter says pretty much the same- though she doesn't mind using me as a sounding board when she wants to lament about some man' s behaviour.. Not appropriate , I don't feel, for grown men to have to answer to parents about any aspect of their lives .

PS- or adult women..

When my husband and I were having our wedding reception I decided to invite my sole remaining Grandparent.

He was a stubborn 94 year old old arch-Catholic redneck from Louisiana and I was not officially out to him. But I thought WTF. I'm inviting everyone else in the family, and I'm an adult. He can deal or not and it's not my problem if he freaks.

He threw a tantrum, but not to me! I never heard word one from him about it, but my wonderful Aunt (my Dad's sister) did. She lived near him and saw him frequently.

When she got divorced in about 1975, he refused to speak to her for three years because divorce was such a sin. She was his only daughter and in some ways his favorite child of 6. He refused to have her 2nd husband (who she's been married to four times longer than the first one) in his house for a long time.

He blustered on the phone to her that my getting married was terrible and how could I do such a thing and blah blah blah blah.

And my Aunt said "Daddy, shut up. Just shut up. This is no different than you being so angry when I married Bill." (By 2009 when this happened, Grandpa LOVED her 2nd husband who is a wonderful guy).

"It's completely different!"

"No, it's not. Go to the wedding or don't go, I don't care, but it's the same thing. And this conversation is over."

Did I mention that my Aunt is an amazing human being? :-)

So yeah, I agree with all of the previous posters. But would add....leave Dad's possible homosexuality out of it.

Just invite them, and be gracious but don't put up with any abuse. You're adults. They're adults. One of the joys of being an adult is having an adult relationship with your parents. Clearly in patriarchal traditional societies that's not often easy (I wondered if the parents were Spanish, Italian or maybe Greek, myself) but you have to do it for your own sanity.

Good luck and congratulations.

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