Comments

1
Wolfson is 100% correct. The job of a defense attorney is to defend his or her client to limits of the earth, whether guilty or not. Courts decide guilt, lawyers do not. And her client WAS 100% INNOCENT unless and until a judge or jury says otherwise -- that's the foundation of our jurisprudence. Surely you've heard "innocent until proven guilty" before.
2
It's true that defense attorneys have an ethical imperative to defend their client to the best of their abilities, regardless of any other factor. It's also true that when working a job where you are continually surrounded by ugliness that you tend to develops a morbid sense of humor as a coping mechanism. This is so.etching I've experienced through a previous career.

However, it is completely exhibit that morbid humor outside of personal interactions with individuals who it's reasonable to assume will not be offended. Making such jokes publicly shows exceedingly poor judgement.
3
Hilary is as unlikeable as her husband is likeable. They are similar in their political leanings, which appear to be strategically rather than ethically based. However, there's nothing more loathsome in this particular era than a Republican politician, and I'll vote for whatever candidate the Democrats mount in 2016. If it's Hilary, I'll vote with distaste, but still.
4
I listened to the whole thing. She sounds like every other good lawyer in America. I still don't want her to be President.
5
I'll be honest and say that although it makes me think less of her as a human, it elevates her as a politician (in my opinion).

Politicians need to be a bit evil to get the job done. That's how LBJ did it. That's how Lincoln did it. It sucks, but it's reality.

Her political stock just went up a bit in my eyes.
7
@3, I think this sums up the modern day right: "Republicans: Nope, still worse."
8
As a criminal defense attorney who defends what society considers the worst of the worst and sees what human beings can actually do to one another we have to find levity in our jobs in some way. While our sense of humor usually comes across as vile, disgusting and should not be said outside of a handful of colleagues it is quite common and a part of the culture. Prosecutors do it too. So do police officers and anyone who works in this profession. With that said, you need to be aware of your surroundings before spouting off.
9
Hillary is 66 years old.

You have to remember she was part of that era when being a feminist and professional woman often meant trying to be "one of the boys". Which, in those days, the style would be to make light of certain issues so as not to be appear "too strident". Like many in those situations, she may have bent over backward so far as to have fallen over.

10
If the prosecution can't get a conviction on a stranger-danger case, that's the fault of the prosecution, not the defense.
11
The right to counsel is a fundamental right. There is no obligation by defendants or by defense counsel to coddle prosecution witnesses. When you are trying to lock someone in a metal box for decades, you are going to be subject to scrutiny. You may have 99% of society on your side, but you aren't entitled to warm fuzzies from the defense lawyer.
12
Hillary rocks!
13
Yes, it's damaging, and yes, she should address it head on, and I hope she does, with far more than what you rightly call an "antiseptic comment.".
But here's the thing: the Washington Free Beacon went trolling through the archives (it must have taken months to come up with this) because they knew there had to be something -- anything -- in there. If every dumb, stupid thing any of us ever said were held up to the light of day, every self-conscious giggle or flat piece of 'wit,' none of us would dare open our mouths again.
I'm thinking here of Ansel's piece on Nick Kristof too -- yes, occasionally Kristof got it wrong, but if being 100% perfect is our yardstick, then who the hell gets to measure up? Politicians, journalists, lawyers, whatever: we make mistakes, and if we have any guts (big 'if'), we own up to them and learn from them.
14
that's it. game over. just swear paul and santorum in now.
15
Finally, the Rape Joke We've All Been Waiting For
16
Remember, if it's okay if a Democrat says this: it's only bad when Republicans say it.
17
#8 doesn't matter. I understand that people who work in difficult situations need coping mechanisms, I get it. I have a friend who works in Child Protective Services. Talk about having to deal with truly horrible things on a day to day basis! OMG. Sometimes she'll just break down and cry while sitting at her desk when reading some of the case files. It can be a real struggle but I've never heard her make any jokes about any of it despite having a great sense of humor and a sharp wit. As the father of a young child and hearing Hilary chuckle about getting her 41 year old client off for molesting a 12 year old kid makes my blood boil. It is to me unacceptable. I get it too that presidential candidates need to be cunning and have ice in their veins, blah blah blah. But they still need to have a heart and the last thing we need is another sociopath in the white house. I was up until now pretty suspicious of Ms. Clinton, but this just puts if over the edge. If Hilary is the best the dems can do, then we are totally screwed as a country.
18
Hillary didn't rape anyone and she acted according to her ethical and legal obligations. The only people that are going to be upset are perennial pearl-clutchers who think all crass jokes are affronts to humanity and those trying to gain political advantage.

I'm willing to bet that the two groups have a huge overlap.
19
It's not parsing to say that the Daily Beast article has Rodham, as she was then known, saying that she was informed of certain things about the victim, not that Rodham herself was saying these things about the victim.
20
@6 - "Can we get a good candidate now? "
This is corporate America. The answer is "no".

"Clinton was a lawyer, and lawyers are required to defend their clients to the best of their ability, even if they think their clients are guilty."

Was she required to take this client? Isn't that where a lawyer's human ethics come into play? Lawyers can say 'no', right? Honest question.

The media release though, is clearly a well-framed attack. We'll see how it all plays out.
21
Screed, ask your CPS friend if she's ever lied on the stand about some minor inconvenient detail in order to facilitate taking someone's kids away. After all , she's a good guy, so she shouldn't feel bad about it.
22
Meh. If you want some real dirt on Clinton, look at her connections to former Jefferson Parish Louisiana Sheriff Harry Lee.
23
I wonder if Hillary Clinton will be held to the same standard for saying something not politically correct as, say, George Will, Donald Sterling, or Dan Savage? The fact is that most people like who they like, hate who they hate, and trumpet (or ignore) each newly-revealed behavioral anecode in order to reinforce already-held beliefs.
24
Treacle, sometimes an individual lawyer can say no, depending on the circumstances, but frankly I consider such conduct by a lawyer ethically passable, not ethically admirable. Having a lawyer when you are accused of a serious crime is a fundamental right. Probably one of the most important fundamental rights. It's hardly heroic to pass on representing someone to make yourself look better in the public's eyes.
25
So should she have pulled a Sam Bowden (Cape Fear) and buried evidence of the victim's prior sexual encounters because she knew the defendant was guilty, or a Kevin Lomax (Devil's Advocate) and excused herself from the case, possibly facing disbarment and the end of her career?
26
This is meaningless

The small minority that will vote for the Mormon think she's the Devil, everyone else will vote for her because she isn't an America-hating Republican.
27
If she had sabotaged her client because she thought he was guilty, that would be a scandal. Doing your job as a defense attorney is integrity.

It's sad that this is going to be used politically. It's hard enough to get a fair trial. And it sucks that they want to blame the shit that rape victims go through on a public defender. The police and the prosecutor are supposed to stand up for victims. Where the fuck where they?

But then again, the Teabaggers already believe we should bring back lynching and save jury trials for rich white men. So nothing new here, really.
28
It's a sad story all right. (References below to the Daily Beast story which you should read.)

Yes Hillary had the duty to defend her client but I don't quite get where she had to offer an affidavit...how can she be both attorney and also offer evidence...even if couched as "I have been informed that the complainant..."

If she had been informed, bring in whomever told her that.

Any lawyers here? I don't get it why Hillary was
offering what amounts to evidence.

But then there is this:

As to the 12 year old now 52, the Daily Beast article will
"...withhold her name out of concern for her privacy as a victim of sexual assault."

The woman is 52. The crime (and let's even assume it happened) took place when she was 12.

It's not fair for her to diminish another's character and hide behind "concern for her privacy".

What a mess.
29
#27 speaking only for myself... My complaint is not that she did her job as a lawyer - I would expect nothing less from an attorney. Instead what I find disturbing is the casual humor she expresses when discussing the case, seemingly oblivious to the harm that was done to the 12 year old child who can only watch helplessly as the molester gets out of jail with little more than a slap on the wrist.
30
She's still not my favorite potential candidate, but this doesn't change anything. I'd still vote for her in a heartbeat in a general election..

Besides, I thought her crack about her client and the polygraph was hilarious.
31
If the Right is so desperate to sling mud they had to reach back more than 30 years to "expose" a statement she made about a 40 year-old case, AND they're trotting it out some 16 months before the election, I don't think we have all that much about which to worry.
32
It was a "youthful indiscretion." That excuse worked well for Henry Hyde, it should work for Hillary.
33
I was on a jury for 2.5 weeks last fall dealing with the rape and kidnapping of a 15 year old girl. Both the defense and prosecution made little jokes in their questioning of jurors and witnesses. The Judge, defendant and most of the jury would laugh. I didn't think possibly sending this person to jail for life w/ no parole or what happened to the girl was funny at all. But I do understand that when you deal with that kind of shit every day, you have to kind of get past the horror of it all and making jokes is one way to do that.
34
The only thing as silly as suggesting lawyers shouldn't defend guilty clients is suggesting that Hillary Clinton has been "defending the rights of women across the globe."

Does that include these women?

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagall…

What about the mothers of the children who get blown up by cluster bombs, which Clinton voted against banning in populated areas?

What about the women who want to burn the U.S. flag in protest? What about women who have their kids taken away because they smoke pot?

The reflexive support for Clinton relies just as much on willful ignorance and blatant hypocrisy as reflexive support for Reagan.
35
@34
An alternative explanation why so many will accept Hillary is that the alternative of a Republican President is truly scary.
36
That's nice, LJM. Shall we vote republican instead so even more war can erupt?

How about no.

This is a bullshit story.
37
"But we can't start arguing that defendants should sabotage their clients if they truly believe their clients are guilty..."

Note: the "defendant" is NOT the counsel for defense. The DEFENDANT is the ACCUSED!
Therefore, it it makes no sense to conflate "defendants" and their "clients", since the two are one and the same.
Next time Paul, ask a grown-up.
38
@28,

It sounds like it never went to trial since the victim never crossed paths with Hillary.

I can only guess at what kind of back office dealings were going on with this case, but, for some reason, the victim was never called in to testify. I don't know if that's because the prosecution thought she would be a poor witness or because the prosecution/her family wanted to protect her from that or what, but it's pretty disingenuous for the victim to castigate Hillary for lying "on" her when the victim never even testified.

It seems to me she should be angry with her family, the prosecution, or both for selling her out.
39
@20, 24, et al.

I don't feel like digging through everything reported again, because the story itself doesn't really fascinate me, but didn't the story say that this was her first case? Even if you are a young hotshot with a law degree from a fancy school that your firm is proud to have on staff, you probably don't get to say no.

@31

I just realized that, too. She doesn't bake cookies, she lets her husband fool around, she stabbed Vincent Foster and strangled Chris Stevens to death, and they're looking at something that she said when she was barely older than today's girls when they go wild.
40
Also, with Obama's campaign team behind her and the Clintons' ability to extricate themselves from controversy, this is just going to give her a great opportunity to talk about the Hard Choices she has had to face throughout her life that has prepared her for the Presidency, assuming she decides that she will run.
41
Everyone will be better off if Hilary Clinton does not run for president. She seems to think that being vaguely left of the GOP is a moral stand. Aside from being pro-choice the only thing you can rely on from her is ambition.
42
@29

Yeah, Hillary's a stone cold bitch. That's one of her qualifications to be President of the United States.

I don't like her for President for lots of different reasons but not because she stood squarely in her client's corner and defended him against a lazy, corrupt criminal justice system that operated on inertia and who's who. Personally I wouldn't believe there ever was a blood stain without seeing it with my own eyes. That's precisely how the rules of evidence are supposed to work. You think the crime lab and the cops and prosecutor had never heard of that? Please.
43
Thank you for providing the perspective, Paul. It's hard to keep in mind that most people get a little too familiar with their jobs, lose perspective, and come off poorly when discussing their job with someone other than a colleague.
44
Why trot out a 30 year old story when she is lying her ass off today?

example: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/06…
45
@28, "affidavit" was probably in inaccurate term; the legal document where Clinton describes the victim was probably a response to the plaintiff's (victim's attorney's) charging document.
46
And let's not forget Hillary's pathetic bald-faced, I-didn't-inhale lie of 2008:
"I remember landing under sniper fire. There was supposed to be some kind of a greeting ceremony at the airport, but instead we just ran with our heads down to get into the vehicles to get to our base."
--Hillary Clinton, speech at George Washington University, March 17, 2008.

Google it, but cover your mouth and make sure you have a clear path to a toilet.
47
At least we'll have the memories; the funky pantsuits; the gaping, cud-chewing yaw whilst waving to the adoring crowds; and the awkward giggling during serious interviews.

Good times.
Should we now "move on", as it were?
48
Another Outrage Bait non-issue.

And please if you have any shred of integrity left can we all stop dropping this empty-brained lazy-ass weasel word "problematic" ...like it means a god damned thing.

Describe exactly what the fucking problem is --what precise harm is being done and to whom. If you can't. Then there isn't one.
49
This is why lawyers have no business in politics, What's legal and what's right are often two different things and people like Hillary don't care about anything but self promotion.
50
Totally astonishing how many people here so blithely and readily pardon Hilary's behaviour. Paul delineates the context well--and I get it--but none of it adds up to exonerating a rapist who's obviously guilty. Yes I get the technicalities of the legal system, but they are just that: technicalities of the legal system. It is a truly frightening thing when technicalities trump the truth, and unfortunately this happens far too often. There's nothing ethical about it. What's ethical at this juncture is that rules are made to be broken.

I like Hilary, but Hilary obviously doesn't have the ovaries/balls for this.

And I can assure you that all the flip comments here would not exist if the people who made them had daughters, and if it was their daughter who had been raped.

Hilary had not had Chelsea yet in 1975 and was apparently, like a lot of the commenters here, too wrapped up in ego and lacking the imagination to make that leap of compassion.

51
JEEE-ZUUUUS! Is the United States about to engage in a nation-dividing gender war?

Anyone brainwashed by the reich-wing nuts and GOP are ignorant cowards running scared.
They know that, like the elephant symbolizing their political party, their numbers are dying out,
and mainly because they won't face reality of growing global diversity and climate change.
For all of you testosterone enraged, sexist pigs seeing red, grow up or go to Mars.

Hillary for 2016!
52
@51
Had enough Malt Liquor & Cocaine yet?
53
people are penis'
54
People who aren't lawyers really shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion about things like this, since they don't really have the first clue how it works. Lawyers (and particularly very young ones) don't get to pick and choose their clients and/or cases. Even later in life, you're not going to turn away a paying client just because he's morally objectionable to someone (or even you). God only knows how many scumbags I've had as clients in my life. I haven't kept track of them all, don't remember them all, and couldn't really give a shit. It's just a fucking job.
55
I wish the Democrats could find at the very least a moderate liberal to run for the Presidency. *sigh*
56
So when the lawyer representing Musab Masmari jokes that what he did was funny because fags by definition are supposed to be set on fire, and then he runs for mayor, it's no biggie, right?

I know I wouldn't be able to vote for somebody who said that.
57
None of what you described Clinton as doing sounds anything like bragging, but hey, you got lots of people to click on this post and at least 57 of us to leave a comment! Paycheck for you!!!
58
@ 53 your statement pretty much sums up why lawyers shouldn't hold public office, who cares if she's getting a real threat to the community off, I mean she's just doing her job.
59
Hillary is still married to Juanita Broaddrick's and Kathleen Willey's rapist.
60
The funny part is most of you apologist morons probably thought Mark O'Mara was the devil when he was defending George Zimmerman last year. There isnt anything a Democrat could do short of molesting children and sacrificing them to Satan that would cause you to rethink your support, because Republicans will always be worse
61
@60

Really? Can you cite one example of anybody here saying Zimmerman didn't deserve a good lawyer?

You're making shit up. Shame on you.
62
@60 come on, we (sane people, can't speak for everyone) blame only Zimmerman and the laws on the books. In a trial the jury or judge might get some judgement, but who in the world blames the defense's lawyer? You cray.
63
Anyone who blames a defense lawyer for "getting their client off" has a very poor, if not non-existent, understanding of how the justice system works in America. The system actually works pretty well. No, it's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more perfect than anything else that's ever been tried. Don't blame the legal community for your own delusions.
64
@54 and 63 -- you are why people hate lawyers. the system doesn't work well at all, it's horribly racist and tilted to the rich. and then sometimes the defense lawyers make millions look at this montfort crap -- huge fees for jury consultants. it's out of line. "People who aren't lawyers really shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion" -- wow arrogant much?
"since they don't really have the first clue how it works." because lawyers, judges and courts don't bother to tell them. " Lawyers (and particularly very young ones) don't get to pick and choose their clients and/or cases." TOTAL BULLSHIT. it's true a youngish lawyer doens't pick but they pick the firm. it's true a judge may order a firm to defend someone, or you may pick a firm with scumbag clients, so in many cases, YES YOU ARE PICKING YOUR CLIENTS. " Even later in life, you're not going to turn away a paying client just because he's morally objectionable to someone (or even you)." hey douchebag, I turn away most clients and don't seek them out because they are morally objectionable, and I pick clients because they have a case under the law and facts AND I impose my moral judgments I don't represent big insurers or employers or corporations, too bad your practice of law is amoral, this is why you like many lawyers deserve contempt. " God only knows how many scumbags I've had as clients in my life." If you are a defense lawyer I respect your trade, but lots of times you're not doing something moral, you're getting the guilty off. you can be immoral in your effects -- like Exxon or an insurer. "I haven't kept track of them all, don't remember them all, and couldn't really give a shit. It's just a fucking job." sounds like you are one of those overloaded defense lawyers paid by the state who shafts their own clients, collects the paycheck, makes minimal attempts. just a job? what the FUCK? if you as a lawyer can't find a passion for justice and moral clients needing help to win your paycheck you're basically a bottom feeding scumbag and dammit it's people like you that make most people hate lawyers.

and now we know why you love guns, too -- probably you live in fear one of the "I don't care about my clients" clients you let go to prison might come after you, isn't that right.
65
what bothers me is that a person who has never tried a criminal jury trial is teaching criminal law and criminal procedure - but that is on the law schools
66
Anyone else see the hypocrisy of the Stranger continually excoriating the Seattle Police Officers Guild for "defending cops accused of egegious acts of brutality" and joking in their newspaper of "shooting at Urban League members" while rationalizing that Clinton deserves a pass for the same behavior because she works in a high stress profession and defending guilty folks is part of the job?
67
Didn't the Stranger write a glowing Woody Allen review?
68
Well, let's break it down. She's assigned the case because she's a woman, and appreciates the irony there. Score one for Hilary. She's well aware of the awfulness of the crime, but sees her job in the narrow terms the legal system demands. It's not about moral judgement. It's about offering the best defense you can for the client. The heart of her humorous anecdote is how the state indefensibly botched the evidence, and gave her an opening that she creatively took, and her expert witness story, which is admittedly a pretty good one. All in all, a pretty thin reed to hang her hypocritical hatred of women in general and raped 12 year-olds in particular. Were I charged with a crime, I'd want someone like her defending me. Voting for president? Not so much, but more because she's just another neoliberal insider given to DNC collaboration with the southern strategy. This tape doesn't mean much to me at all, except to show that she's human like the rest if us.
69
I don't understand the one who called her husband "likeable" when he was as obvious a lier as any other politician and even more so than most of them. What Democtratic politician do we have who would make a better candidate than Mrs. Clinton and who do the Republicans have who could compete against her? Ted Cruz or Jeb Bush?

as things stand she is as close as there is to a clear leader.

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