Dan, I bet you can totally get her to take you and Terry as her guests to the premieres of her films.

Ooo red carpet! You could cross that off your bucket list! Since you are one of Ameica's leading Gay-lebrities, I think you and Terry should totally do it.

Invite Ellen Page to the Lovecast.

..also, we all knew she was on our side anyway... ;>)

Cue hysterical, teary-eyed, quickly-to-be-deleted condemnation by SB in ...3...2...1...

Ellen's great. Glad she's being herself.

@2

Dan wearing a Spreading Santorum button with his tux posing with Clint Eastwood and Bruce Willis at the Oscars!

She needs to come out of those pants!
Amirite?

This will not affect how I perceive her on film in any way. (My heart belonged to Alia Shawkat in Whip It anyway.)

@9: I'm straight, so I don't know if my reaction carries any weight, but I think each person needs to weigh his or her own circumstances and make the best decision for him/herself. Ideally, if it is only fear of being made uncomfortable, everyone should come out, but sometimes some people live under conditions that mean their lives or livelihoods would really be jeopardized if they came out. If enough others come out, they can reap the benefits a la "herd immunity."

Think of it as communism: "from each according to his abilities to each according to his need."
You're not a moral failure. You have weighed your situation and decided that it's not merely cowardice, but rather serious self-preservation behind your decision, though I think you should make public statements in support of out gays, whether celebrities or "real people" in your community. That helps, too. Or at least not appear to condone bigotry by standing by in what seems to be silent agreement when the haters do their hate-thing.

@9: Dan has long cut older gays some slack. LOTS of slack for not coming out in the 50s, 60s, or 70s. Less slack for not coming out more recently. And he's always had caveats about living in a shitty town or being at risk at work.

And yet, is living in a shitty town working with people who wouldn't accept you the only option any more? It can feel like that, but there are damn few individuals who couldn't find some way to get up and go. Friends and lovers of mine who were very late in coming out never had it as bad as they imagined. Not nearly.

The only moral failing is that society as a whole make people feel who they are is wrong or they cannot be who they truly are because they are scared.

It's moral failing every time you witness a person being intimidated due to their gender, nationality, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, sexuality and many other aspects of themselves which makes them who they are

And who they choose to share those aspects of their personal, private life, is up to them and the people they choose to share it with

Calling it a moral failing only shows you don't really comprehend the true failings that happen everyday, and deciding they do not want to disclose those parts of their life is not one of them.

I do think the guy that interviewed you had a couple of private thoughts he wanted to disclose to you though, as it seemed it was all he could do to not crawl all over you and suck your invisaline retainer right out of your mouth

So, you know, you got that going for you, but encouraging people they are somehow failing for choosing to not be fully out, is straight up asshole Dan

saying that type of shit to people dumb enough to believe it, is a total Paul Constant move

@9, what the others said.

If you are going to be actually harmed by coming out, be that actually physically assaulted or killed, or more general harm like being left jobless or homeless, then don't come out. I think Dan would agree that if your life and well being would be put in jeopardy by coming out then it is perfectly understandable to not come out.

That's why I tell young people, still in High School or College, who don't feel they can come out, or even if they are just uncertain how their parents who them are totally dependent on would react, to not come out.

Instead I tell them to focus on their school, and to study something that will be likely to grant them good employment in a place where things are more liberal and safe for them. Then once they graduate move, get a job someplace where you don't have to worry, and THEN come out.

However, I know of plenty of people my age who aren't out and their reasons basically equate to cowardice. They are afraid their families will reject them even though they are no longer dependent on them in any way. They are afraid of being treated differently or looked down upon. But they are not at risk of serious harm, just discomfort and minor hassles.

Those are the people who need to come out. They can if they wanted to and it wouldn't leave them homeless or dead. It would just be a minor hassle and it would lose them some friends and family, but they are also the ones who can make the biggest difference in public attitudes as well.

If your life and livelihood would be seriously harmed by coming out then don't. But if you can but choose not to then you have a moral imperative to come out and push for freedom for everyone. Me and my generation came out when there were hardly any protections for gay people in the US. I have known people who came out who lost jobs and apartments because of it, and certainly lost family. We came out when AIDS was first coming to national attention and people assumed if you were gay you had it. But we came out, we survived, and we helped make the world a better place for the next generation of gay people and for those in our generation who couldn't come out at the time.

Now those who benefited from that work have a moral obligation to move that work forward.

If a gay child stays closeted in order to inherit a fortune from their bigoted parent(s), then well, why not? Then use some of that money for LGBT philanthropic causes. Sweet revenge in a way.

Raindrop @17, do you actually study or work with hyrdometeors or cloud microphysics? Off topic, just curious. I like your photo.

I love it! A sensible Canadian girl has an important decision to make and so she turns to the nation's public broadcaster for guidance.

So, uh, you're sure it was this segment from Strombolopoulos' show that did it and not some episode of Coach's Corner?

@18: Raindrop believes that the evidence supporting the theory of anthropogenic climate change isn't conclusive. So the answer to your question would be "no".

I think it's disingenuous to say that there is a "moral responsibility" to be out while at the same time say that no one should compel you to be out. We're compelled to not murder, not steal, etc.

Lastly, a severe "check your privilege" moment - you're a gay man who is out and "made it" - a successful career and continued prospects in the future. For those people considering being out/coming out; they should really only be considering their own agenda when deciding to come out. Not everyone views their sexuality as a tribal characteristic for which they owe a "cause".

Once upon a time, Savage was fresh; now he's just another middle age guy whose ego has caught up with him and can only see his own needs.

@18: As a layman I found that image. Glad you like it. So the answer is no, but not because of the impertinent commentary that venomlash belched.

@21, Dan came out as a teen raised in Chicago in a Catholic family. He came out before he "made it" and when he had everything to lose. His success and "privilege" isn't a disqualifier for him to speak out on this. On the contrary, it's a license to because he is talking from experience. He is not asking anyone to do anything he hasn't. He came out when it was a big risk and still managed to be a sucess, just like so many of us.

@21: I imagine your face looked just like a cat's butt when you typed that last paragraph. I'm sure Dan sobs himself to sleep for not living up to your expectations.
Those middle aged gays and lesbians who came out in days of yore risked a lot so that those who came after would have an easier time of it. No one, and certainly not Dan, is suggesting to come out if it would put that person in danger, because the reality is that that is still the case for a lot of people. But for a lot of other people that is not the case (in part due to people like Dan and Fortunate) and it is not unreasonable to tell them to put on their Grown Up Pants, own who they are, and come out. Some will, and they will be helping to move our culture forward and also experience the benefit of being their authentic selves in the world at large. Some won't, and won't. More's the pity for us and them.

I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and choose to believe he was trying to funny with his whole

"not coming out is a moral failing" and images of Mordechai

although both characters should read the entire set of "wash that gray out" instructions for men, while Dan obviously paid more attention to the "use it but still look like you don't" chapter and Mordechai may have read it all but failed to understand how to open the package, regardless their cluelessness is one and the same

You either get it, or you don't

you either fully understand the concepts or you are fatally confused

and I fully understand how people like Dan , and evidently Fortunate/Athiest justify there proclaimed belief that all people need to publicize their sexuality, which Unfortunately and Unfunctionally is a lot like a person who willingly chooses to make the switch from analog to digital recordings which is a choice they come to regret, and then after the fact attempt to pass a law restricting everybody from using analog.

It is a shitty thing to do

and even if you were tricked into believing that your sexuality is something the public has a right to interfere with in your life, it's OK to be mad about it, however it will always be wrong to demand everyone who was not tricked the travel down your gravel road of dumb choices

It's fine for misery to desire company but wrong to force that company against their will. Not specifically stating that is what you're doing and employing subtle mind games only makes the wrong more severe

which is exactly what he is doing by stating that coming out is a moral obligation

No matter what color of the rainbow your sexuality hails from, it is always your right to keep private information private. Dan can talk about his beliefs all day everyday, but without including the fact that his beliefs are his own, and furthermore that everyone should make their own choices regarding how much of their private lives they would like converted to public, he is in the wrong

He should be told " Go Fuck Yourself" before other innocent people are also fooled into believing they do not have the right to privacy when it comes to personal and private matters in their life.

Paul Constant and Saul deserves to be told to go fuck themselves

Brendan Kiley should be told to go fuck his or herself

Kirk or Kurt should be told to go fuck himself

and anybody and everybody who uses the tactic of their own flawed sense of morality in order to push their beliefs onto the lives of someone else, especially when doing so after you've been the victim sitting on the other side of the table.

Countless wrongs have been done against LGBT persons after idiots who, like Dan were also fatally confused in regards to concepts of morality, and make no mistake, the men who happened to be Christians were wrong in claiming that who you were was wrong or any sort of moral failing except for their own. And that moral failing is still to this day not admitted by those idiot men who happened to make their proclamations in Christ's name

Those men were, are, and will always be assholes for interfering with your life in ways they had absolutely no right to, and Dan can choose to believe whatever he wants to in regards to privacy and sexuality, his views are not wrong until he employed the same type of used car salesman gimmick of control and psy-ops as the asshole men did way back when; which is to claim that you exercizing your own rights as a "moral failing"

Which is exactly what he did, and I should not have been so gentle in pointing that out

The women who broke free from the white man's lies, sacrificed their lives, so that today we don't have to

People of African descent broke free from the white man's lies, sacrificed their lives, so that today we don't have to

Homosexual men and women broke free from the white man's lies, sacrificed their lives, so that today we don't have to

Thanks to them we inherited a world where all we have to do to avoid the hell they were put through, is to speak up every time you witness some asshole attempting to do others wrong by not respecting a person's most basic rights

Which is exactly what Dan is doing by claiming it is a moral failing to keep the details of private matters, private

Like those men were wrong way back when, exactly so is Dan in regards to this topic, and I don't expect Dip Shit to make amends nor do I expect he will admit the fact he is wrong, he and many women these days choose the very male path of living like that, it's not a road to life it's a sign describing the road which states "DEAD END"

(which is worse than a "NO OUTLET" sign)

to those who were hoping a different destiny for themselves or for an entire nation.

Don't believe the foolish white man's lies, far better to tell them to go fuck themselves

There is private life and the public face of private life which is, I think where coming out comes into it. Nobody accuses a straight couple holding hands in the Safeway of making a show of their heterosexuality. No one interprets that gesture as an expression of something private private. Exhorting closeted gays and lesbians to come out isn't tell them they have to air the intimate aspects of their sexuality. It's telling them to participate (and again, only if safe for them to do so) in those every day gestures of identity that straight people do without a thought. Put your partner's picture up. Hold their hand.
Dan has never said to do this if the person might face significant repercussions.
But if that is not the case, then yes, step up, brave the awkward moments, because it is the right thing to do. That's what moral imperative means.. Doing the right thing.

I'll say it in a way so that you can understand it Lissa,

Dan is being an asshole because he is attempting to say it is a moral failure if you don't hold hands with a lover when entering a grocery store

it's a failure to understand that the problem is not, nor does it have anything to do with the person being persecuted or afflicted

the problem has everything to do with the person who persecutes or afflicts others lives with their seemingly justified shit. Having the power to do something never equals the right to do it

Dan's flawed beliefs are not wrong for him to choose to believe in, it's wrong when you attempt to sell your beliefs to others

It's disgustingly wrong to employ the type of psychological warfare that making it an issue of being a moral failure, it's the same disgusting hateful shit men pulled on homosexuals, just as it is the same shit one proclaimed homosexual is pulling on all other LGBT persons.

But that's just how I see it, you should see it however you choose to see it

&27: I understand you perfectly. We just disagree. Not being able to do the right thing because it is too dangerous is completely understandable. Not wanting to do the right thing because it is too scary or uncomfortable, or awkward is also understandable, and that decision is up to each individual, but it doesn't make the right thing to do any less the right thing to do.

The "right thing to do" does not change simple because a bigot is present an attempting to violate areas of a person's personal and private life-- even if the bigot is only attempting to influence "the public face of it" --interfering with anybody's private decisions is morally wrong, as you only get a say in their life's matter if you are one of the parties they choose to share their private life with.

Violating a person's most basic, individual, autonomous rights is never "the right thing to do"

and True actions that qualify as "the right thing to do" do not change

choosing to believe in that type of circumstancial rightness, is exactly what fooled Christians into believing they had a moral obligation to inform homosexuals that who they are, is wrong

which was, is, and will always be a fucked up, wrong thing to do no matter how confused they are

just as attempting to get people to believe the lie that not disclosing their sexual orientation is not the right thing to do

it was, is and will always be a fucked violation of their most basic individual rights; named by Theists God Given Rights which to Atheists are called Truths that are self-evident

it is not that you are incapable of understanding these Truths, it is that you willingly choose to deny them

and that is well within your individual rights, the same as it is within mine to inform the innocent that they are under no obligation to foolishly make the same decision, however it is perfectly fine should they choose to believe such lies, because therein lies the difference

had those despicable men who called themselves Christians, informed homosexuals that they were full of shit with the whole "moral obligation" and that being straight was "the right thing to do" so that any homosexual could make their own fully informed decision on whether or not they believed the lie that who they are is wrong, then those Christians could have avoided the label of despicable, because at least then they would have not been in violation of an individual's right

to not violate such rights, is to respect them

You choose not to respect those rights, which is extra-despicable considering you are very aware of the damage done mentally, physically, and spiritually to People which those rights are violated

that is a fucked up thing to do as it essentially means you cannot be taught "the right thing to do" as you already know what that is, but choose to ignore such knowledge

you can justify it as a "difference of opinion" but it is factually choosing to deny the Truth, I do not desire to deny you that right, my concern is for those who don't know any better and don't get the choice to choose whether or not your beliefs are actually True

It takes character to admit your are wrong, esp when it comes to your beliefs, from past experiences I know not to hold my breathe waiting for slog staff and the majority of it's readers to do the next right thing, after they get it wrong the first time

which is a very male specific, personality trait

@29: As I said, no one is saying one is required to divulge the intimate details of the bed room. That is not the issue. Being out as a gay person is merely being one's authentic self the way straight people are allowed to be. Even the most private and prudish straight person, who would never dream of indulging in any PDA, can with no qualm either declare or imply their heterosexuality. They can be themselves truthfully. People in the closet are not.
And for the record you, can be out and a private prudish person. You can be gay, and not talk about your sex life, with out lying about it and pretending that you are straight.
Why are you so invested in people living a lie? Why don't you want gay people to be able to do something like hang a picture of their partner in their cube at work? Something straight people take for granted?
Being afraid isn't immoral. There are any number of reasons one might hesitate to come out. But some reasons are better than others. If some one can't come out because they are afraid that it will be awkward, that is indeed their choice to make, but telling them that's a weak reason to keep living a lie is not unreasonable nor is it hateful.
Hopefully as more and more people realize that being closeted is a cage and come out, the more timid will find the courage to do the right thing as well, and be free to be themselves.
Lying is the wrong thing to do.

you don't clearly don't understand what I am saying, I believe that a homosexual orientation is NOT wrong, never was wrong, and never will be. I firmly believe that it is anybody, in any relationship with anyone else, should be free to publicly display affection for each other.

It is wrong that society has carried on the outright lie that homosexuality is something to be ashamed of and therefore public display restricted

The key word is free, as in each person is free to choose whomever they want to start their family with, so long as the person the offer to share their life with, willingly accepts and agrees.

That relationship is completely up to the people in it, it is not within your rights to demand anything their relationship must be or cannot be when we are speaking of knowledgeable adults choosing the people they will share their life with

It is wrong to make any demands of THEIR relationship unless their's is your's, including the desire for their relationship to be publicly known-- even when speaking of a single person not in a relationship AKA the face of it; AKA a person's sexual orientation --there is absolutely no aspect of another person's relationships that you can rightful demand, and doing so is wrong.

Attempting to do so indirectly and in a psychologically abusive manner such as falsely labeling it "the right thing to do" or implying it is a "moral failing" or "moral obligation" is complete horseshit.

I am sorry for those who were fooled into believing the lies of ignorant men who told homosexuals they were morally wrong, they lied and unfortunately the assholes who attempted to force those false beliefs on homosexuals will likely never admit the wrongs they committed

I cannot bring myself to excuse allowing such a diseased belief to be perpetuated and had I been alive the first time some asshole started spreading those lies I would have spoken up, as that is the duty of all human beings

just as it is my duty to inform anybody that when someone tries to fool them into believing they are morally obligated to disclose their sexual orientation, for any reason other than they are one of the ones you choose to share your life with, that those people are full of shit, that they are confused and justifying their actions because of their reaction to the damage from believing some other asshole who sold them lies.

There are certain rights that every person has, and there is nothing that can justify violating an individual or family's personal rights. It happens everyday, and there is nothing that makes it right, ever

the only thing that is not wrong is for the person or family to willing desire to do what is being demanded of them, fooling them into believing you are right does not absolve you from the wrongs committed, it actually increases the severity of your violation

Being closeted was never, as in never was, never is, and never will be a contributing factor to the wrongs done to homosexuals

You may be blind to this Truth because you believe it is OK to demand they come out and callous enough to claim staying in the closet is not the right thing to do

You still fail to realize that if you had the right to make such claims as anything more than your personal, ignorant beliefs, then by default the act of being closeted must have contributed to the wrongs homosexuals were afflicted with

However I will attest that it is fact, their being closeted did absolutely nothing to contribute, that what did contribute to society adopting such a wrong and ignorant and false view on life was that a person failed to speak up when they witnessed the affliction or even talk about affliction

If a person expects a for themselves and their children to live a life that entails freedom and liberty, it is their duty to speak up when anybodies rights to their freedom and liberty to pursue whatever "happiness" is to them-- which very well may include that assholes like you do not know their sexual orientation --it is their duty to speak up

it is not their duty to adopt ignorant view points as moral righteousness.

You cannot always accurately distinguish between Love and Hate, evident from your inability to understand where you do not have the right to intrude in lives you are not a part of, indisputably evident as you have already stated you are well aware of the damages done to the victims of such violations of sacred rights

GO FUCK YOURSELF

you are wrong, and you know damn well what the truth is

and for Dan,

"Mind you don't cut yourself Mordechai!" you ignorant fuck

Nobody, not one person here, has said anything about forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to. Suggesting that there is a moral obligation to come out if you can do so relatively safely isn't the same thing as demanding anyone come out, or outing them, or any other such action.

You are making a false comparison.

People are free to do what they want. They are free to not come out if they choose not to. No one here is outing them or forcing them.

But the simple fact is that persecution continue because for many it is an issue that they don't see effecting anyone they know. Gay people are some mystical "other" that are not a part of their world. And so long as the gay people who are part of the lives of these people stay in the closet those people have no reason they can see to revisit their assumptions and beliefs.

Coming out has a great effect on the social acceptance of gay people. You can deny that all you want, but anyone who has been involved in the struggle for equality for gay people know it is a fact because it is easy to see. It doesn't matter how anti gay sentiment began. The fact is that it is here, and the most effective, and really only way to combat it is for people to come out. That it never should have begun is a noble idea, but doesn't change the fact that it is here and to combat it coming out is a very important element.

You can get your panties in a twist just because others don't agree with you, but your arguments ring hollow.

They might have some weight if anyone was actually trying to force anyone to do something they didn't want to, but there is no force involved.

People have a right to make moral judgements, just as you are judging the people who don't agree with you, in very harsh terms. Talk about moral righteousness, your posts are dripping with it.

But that's fine. You can condemn us for not agreeing with you, and we have the equal right to judge people for not coming out and standing up when they have a real opportunity to do so.

Nobody has to do anything they don't want to do. And none of us are trying to force anyone to do something they don't want. But we are entitled to our views about the moral implications just as you are, and sorry but you will just have to learn to deal with that. Your name calling and feigned moral indignation doesn't lend any weight to your arguments. None at all.

Exactly, it's fine for people to be out and proud, I am not discouraging anybody from coming out if they choose to be. Some of the most emotionally inspiring words that restore my faith in human beings as a collective race have been listening to those who wanted to be out, but felt afraid.

Encourage people to come out, they need to know that it is OK, but stating it as a moral obligation, or implying that they need any sort of hardship reason from remaining in the closet or else they are somehow failing their obligations is wrong. It's wrong and also a cowardly way to enforce compliance with your view point. It is not respecting an individuals most basic righhts

the way you are choosing to make the decision for people to come out, is the same subtle psychological abuse that fake-Christians pulled on homosexuals.

you can stop reading here as that is the jist of everything else written below, minus the fuck yous and what not

I am simply pointing out that nobody needs any excuse what-so-ever to not come out if they don't feel like it.

It may have been the best thing you ever did, but not every person who came out agrees with you, and even if 100% of out from in people did agree that it was a positive experience and they wished they had done it sooner, that means exactly squat and gives you absolutely no right to make or even influence the decision of anybody who is not you

Preaching that it is a person's "moral obligation" to disclose publicly their sexual orientation or as Dan put it "a moral failure" you are not technically demanding they come out, you are simply telling them that choosing to not disclose their orientation is immoral.

It's fine to encourage people to be out, however that is a choice that everyone has the right to make for themselves. You are belittling people for not letting you make a decision for them that you have no right to.

Encourage people to come out, I am not against any LGBT people showing public displays of affection, but unless after your encouragement you clearly state that the decision is not yours to make, and they do not need any excuse, any reason, and in no way need to justify their decision in anyway to anybody, regardless if their decision is in or out

The same as you don't need to justify or have any rhyme or reason what-so-ever for choosing the people you want to share your life with, you only have to desire it, and it's fine to desire it for no other reason than you feel like it

It doesn't matter what I say, the fact that it was me who said it means you automatically deny it, that's pretty damn pathetic, if I didn't know any better I would guess that you attended journalism classes in Oregon, home of the clueless and classless bunch of unapologetic violators of a person's personal and private space

Deniers of Truth due to it's inconvenience, and their habit of doing wrong in manners that are subtle enough that they can believe they did no wrong.

Sloggers like to think I am prejudiced against LGBT people, which is about as wrong as you can get, however I am prejudiced against assholes and hypocrites, and esp nasty to people who use subtlety -- which can be more damaging than being direct -- in order to control others they have no right to.

For several decades, now that the federal nation recognizes how wrong it is to afflict LGBT people with harm, the damage done by the false-Christians by something as simple as labeling them as "morally wrong" has done more spiritual damage then all of the direct hatred combined.

It's easy to ignore dip shits who it is obvious don't know what the hell they are talking about, it's the subtle fuckers who have trouble distinguishing love from hate who are dangerous

hate me because I am not gentle enough informing pompous assholes when they are wrong

but don't pull this bullshit morality crap on your own brothers and sisters, and especially don't be so egotistical as to not reflect on whether your actions are wrong because you don't like who brought it to your attention

hell continue your bullshit story about how you are right and I am wrong, or that neither of us is and it's simply a common difference of opinion

you don't have to admit anything, but promise you people would appreciate it if you did not trample their most basic personal rights, even if you deny even violating said rights because you chose the subtle and more damaging manipulating way to choose for them

For anybody who desires to be out,

for anybody who wishes they didn't feel like they must hide who they are, You should come out, and I would hope that you only surround yourself with people you feel comfortable with, because we have come full circle with sexuality and now even LGBT people are pulling this bullshit morality card

fuck them, and I am sorry that you were not made aware of the boundaries that you and you alone get to make the decision of who is allowed into those spiritual and physical spaces

you don't need to have no choice, there is nothing wrong with choosing a gay, bi, or transgendered sexuality or even all of those combined regardless of how hetero you believed yourself to be

When it comes to sexuality and choosing who you desire to share your life with, nobody has any right what-so-ever to interfere or influence your decisions in any way.

when someone tries to tell them to fuck off for me, because I promise you they are in the wrong when in regards to knowledgeable consenting adults

and when you tell them to fuck off, for me, 9 times out of 10 if you say "fuck off sloggers" you will be accurately describing the violator who needs to be told this.

it fucking 2014, people who do not recognize your self-evident rights, are either too stupid to understand and cannot be taught, or they knowingly violate your rights,

hence the very appropriate phrase "fuck off slogger" or "slogger go fuck yourself"

@raindrop "If a gay child stays closeted in order to inherit a fortune from their bigoted parent(s)"

What a free country the USA are, for the rich and the rich only. Rich bigot parents can make their children's life hellish even long after they're dead ! So awesome.

Dirtclustit, I didn't disagree with what you said simply because it was you. I have no idea who you are. I was clearly responding to WHAT you said.

However I am gaining sympathy with those who do, because you can't seem to help devolving into insults.

I get what you are saying. I don't agree. A moral failing isn't the same thing as being evil. It is just that, a failing. It's not abusive or coercive to say such a thing. We all say such things about various things.

I get you feel very strongly about these things. So do many of us.

I am beginning to feel much about you the say you seem to think of us. You opinions are noted, but they are just that, opinions, and I find them lacking.

Dirtclustit you really like ranting at windmills. Nobody is trying to force people to come out. Not even Dan. And he said moral imperative, not moral failing which are different things. I've said more than once that the choice to come out belongs to the individual, and that people who don't certainly have their reasons. Some of those reasons are better than others, and holding yourself back from living an authentic life because you might have to have an awkward conversation is pitiable and I'm going to say say so. Living a lie is not the right thing, and I'm going to say so. What I won't do, is try to force some one out of the closet and no one else in this conversation would either, including Dan.
Telling some one that what they are doing is hurting themselves, is not hateful, or putting a gun to their head to make them change.
People have a right to make their own choices, and I'm not going to stop them, but I'm not going to pretend that living a lie is the right thing.

What Dirtclustit doesn't get is that saying that doing something is the moral thing is not the same as saying that not doing that thing is immoral. No one is saying that staying in the closet is immoral. Only that coming out of the closet to further the fight for equality is the moral action.

Staying in the closet is more amoral in most cases. It can be immoral depending on how it is done but barring those kinds of situation the act itself isn't inherently immoral and no one is saying it is.

But when you have the opportunity to help others and that opportunity is laid out before you, then helping those others is clearly the moral action. To not help isn't necessarily evil or immoral, but it isn't the moral action either.

If someone walking down the sidewalk in front of me has a heart attack and collapses on the pavement and I can provide CPR I don't have to. But clearly the moral action would be to give the person CPR. There might even be some risks involved. They may have an infectious disease or something. I could easily cite those risks as reason not to help. But not many would argue that if I can, then the moral action is to help that person.

@38: Thank you! Exactly what I was trying to convey.

at least you back tracked into the realm of having absolutely nothing to do with a persons rights and equated it to Good Samaritan laws

I will settle for that since it appears you don't comprehend that it's the bigot who has hurt you, and not the privately gay people

although you still don't get that it doesn't matter who is gay and who isn't, nor do you understand that people who choose not to come out don't need any excuse, as only a bigot assigns morality and the failure of it to judge a person on the basis of whether or not the person subjects themselves to bigotry

yet because you did, that means everyone should have to

thank you for back tracking and removing the bigoted sense of morality, although until you include the fact that they need no excuse, as it is not a Good Samaritan type situation, but rather just another way to excuse a subtle form of bigotry

as if somehow, in someway a person who doesn't show public affection makes them unauthentic, living a lie, just because you have trouble identifying a gay person.

It just bullshit, you can show public affection toward the same sex and not be gay, and if even if the two of you, Fortunate and Lissa were they same gender and publicly engaging in intercourse with each other, I would still not realize you were gay, as being bigoted towards gay people is something I didn't realize LGBT people afflict each other with,

In the past I thought the only bigots toward LGBT people were ignorant heteros

thank you for opening my eyes, I still say it's pretty shitty of you to not acknowledge that nobody needs a reason to choose who they share their life with and nobody needs to justify not allowing the public access to it, or even just the face of their sexuality

it's a fucked up thing to do

People don't want to come out for whatever reason, that's there choice. They want to live a lie, that's their choice too.
No one is calling for forcing people out of the closet. Full stop.

If they come out of their own free will, they will be helping themselves and the culture at large to advance toward a time when no one will need to hide who they are and love.

Those who remain closeted won't be. Calling me names doesn't change that.

and while you are comparing a person's morality to whether or not they are out, or instead comparing not being out to ignoring the sufferer of a heart attack, perhaps remind yourself that LGBT people are not suffering from any ailment, they are suffering from the very unnatural events known as being afflicted by the hands of man.

It is a pain that you wouldn't feel if not for the bigots who afflict you with their hatred mistaken for love

and you seem to think that proclaiming you are gay is more effective than anybody, gay straight or anything in between , speaking up and telling the bigot "You are wrong"

and "knock that shit off"

because I can tell you it does help, much more so then making sure everyone goes through the same hardships you or Dan did

You can judge other people in bigoted ways, but I hope it is really a matter of not being able to admit when you are wrong

that you don't seriously spread that poisonous manure about being out as a moral obligation

as that is confusing love with hatred

Blah blah blah.

Again, putting words in other's mouths. No one said that coming out is the ONLY thing that makes a difference. Only that it is the most significant thing that makes a difference.

I am 100% certain that we would not have come as far as we have if it wasn't for the number of people who have come out.

And the fact is that very few people coming out today will ever go through the hardships that those of use who have been out for decades have gone through. Even in the most oppressive spots of the US gay people today have more freedom and protection than when we came out.

I believe 100% that coming out when it can be done without risk to life or livelihood is the moral choice.

That you don't like that is too bad for you.

You might want to wipe the spittle from your mouth, your starting to foam up.

@38 I don't think the CPR stuff is an adequate comparison.

Though I'm not perfectly trained on its details, I did CPR on a person last wednesday, at my kids' music school. She's alive as a result, though still hospitalized. Right when I saw she was unconscious and I "chose" to involve myself, I wasn't thinking about morals, it just seemed like the only way I could react. I didn't think about risks. She barfed on me.

I would find it highly immoral not to help a person in danger of death, if I'm able to do it at minimal danger for me. Not doing it would be like being complicit to a murder : if I know how to help, I will at least try to.

But I agree with you in not thinking that someone staying in the closet when there are no risks to life or livelihood is immoral. It's weak, it's a mark of poor character, but it's not immoral, even though coming out is the obvious moral choice.

Lying about who we are and what we do, actively or passively, is such an integral part of human societies that I wouldn't fault anybody for lying about their orientation.

I used CPR because in most instances even the law protects your right to not get involved, and as a general rule people give moral leniency to people to not get involved if there is risk to them.

That you didn't stop to think about it in moral terms means only that in this respect you are an inherently moral person. An inherently moral person doesn't stop to consider if not acting is immoral because the thought of not acting doesn't enter their heads.

But that doesn't make not acting immoral inherently. Only that in that instance the individual is not intrinsically inclined to the moral choice.

Interesting point however, about the lying. Because many seem to think that being in the closet is a neutral action. That it is just a matter of not saying you are gay. But it isn't. Being in the closet requires active deception. Anyone who wasn't actively trying to hide, and lying, or being misleading wouldn't need to come out with any act. They would already be out in that everyone who knew them would already know.

So yes, I can see the need in cases to lie, not just about orientation but about many things. But we should recognize that being in the closet isn't a neutral stance. It is an active choice to deceive others. In some cases it may be necessary. In some it may actually be the more moral choice. In some cases it might be amoral and in some it may be immoral (like knowingly tricking someone into marrying in order to deflect suspicion). Circumstances matter.

My point ultimately is that something not being immoral doesn't mean it is neutral. It's like smoking. It isn't immoral, but it's still a bad choice and it is something actively chosen and engaged in, not something that just happens through inaction.

@23, @24;

Bull-ass-mother-fucking-shit on both of you. However much harder it was to come out 5, 15, 35 years ago isn't relevant: He's asking people today to come out, to support HIS cause - not their own needs. And that's all you really need to know. He's put his priorities over ours, in this case; and the cherry on top is that anyone who doesn't agree that coming out is the right thing to do is a moral failure! That's like 95% as oppressive as thinking you have to act like a jock and stick your dick in as many girls as possible to prove you aren't a sissy-homo-queer whatever (another experience that Savage had). How can you support that argument without vomiting?

@46:Right back at ya.
1) it's not "Dan's cause"
2) he never said "moral failing" he said moral imperative. Those are two different things.
3) no one, and certainly not Dan is asking any one to come out if they would risk serious consequences, indeed no one is trying to force any one to come out against their will.
4) why are you so invested in people living a lie if it isn't necessary? Why does it upset you so much to be told that being one's authentic self is a good thing, both personally and for our culture?

Come out, don't come out. That choice is up to the individual. The more people who do come out will help open the door for those too timid to do so now.

@46,
If this is what makes you and people like you get all frothy and ragey I don't know if I should feel sorry for you or envy you. Sorry for you that you can't stand that someone else feels differently about this and such a stupid thing upsets you so...

Or envious because if you have nothing more important in life to get that upset about you must live a truly privileged life.

People can rot in the closet for all I care, but I am entitled to my opinion of that choice as anyone.

If you don't like it, too bad. People can do as they like, but I see no need to coddle cowards.

Actually in my country "non-assistance à personne en danger" is punishable by jail terms, so there is actually no right not to get involved when someone is dying in front of you - there is instead a duty to get involved. I think that law colors a lot of my experience. So I wouldn't frame my involvement into that lady's heart attack as me being an "inherently moral person", it's a bit too gratifying for simply obeying the law of my country.

Even disregarding this law, my mother was a CPR instructor when both of us were younger, so in a very litteral way I had no choice but try to help.

Back to the subject at hand, I entirely agree with you that the closet is not neutral, and not immoral per se, though it can be in certain circumstances. I can't see the closet in any other light than lying, which is also not neutral, but not always immoral.

Well, until I see evidence to the contrary I'm going to go on considering you inherently moral for saving someone else.

"two-cheers" for Dan as usually his message does help those suffering from -- these days -- the most subtle forms of mistaking hatred for love. Stories like Ellen's, being a person who was feeling forced against her will to hide her sexuality and coming out being akin to the best choice she has ever made

for what it's worth, Dan does make a world of difference in some peoples lives

It is a shame he pretends not to realize that the words he uses without thinking, that are more attempts to slight those he bitterly opposes, are in fact very damaging to the some of the very people he appears to desire helping.

The whole "morality" bullshit label doesn't hurt the Christians (who aren't even really Christians) and it poisons a demographic of LGBT people completely unnecessarily. Some people do not share the Hollywood view of life, they are not prudes, they just view sex and sexuality as very personal, private, and sacred, luckily those whom I know hold such views and the few among those who are Gay, are not stupid enough to give the words of a bigot any weight

Hopefully all are that way

I spoke up because it is my duty, and the industry of journalism, esp those of this tabloid generation, are all about being Looking right and not about speaking truth. The allegiance among tabloid journalists to close ranks would be remarkably noble, if not for the fact that they do so to cover up the truth.

We may not be able to stop all of the ignorant people who spew ignorant words that damage Our Children and fool them into believing they have no choice but to let the public have control of their personal private lives when they do not even have the right to peak into it -- but that does not stop them as if they have the power to violate, they will, like a rapist they will not respect things that all the power in the world could never give them the right,

We can remove the power of their lies and teach Our Children the Truth, so long as people are willing to speak out against all forms of fucked up bigotry, it effectively removes the power that the media uses to continue controlling people's lives in ways that will never be right to even attempt to influence.

The entire staff and every ignorant slogger can dog pile on, through every ivy-league-butt-hurt-angry-athiest/top blogger argument and damage control tactic they want, I have done my duty to speak up

It is a shame that instead of simply admitting a mistake, retracting the bigoted words, and restating

"I didn't realize how easy it is to fall into the bottomless pit of a mind framed with bigotry, I see now how it is not within my rights to trample the sovereign, sacred rights of an individual, and how it is not OK to creep into those rights; their body, their religious beliefs,and their sexuality (which is not subject to these ignorant fucks labels of Hetero/Homo or LGBT anyway) I have no right to interfere or influence these sacred, personal, and private aspects of their life unless their's is part of mine. I only wanted to support those who felt they couldn't come out, I didn't think about those who don't agree that what Hollywood has done with sacred areas of life and don't want some asshole like Dan intruding in areas he has no right to be"

so sorry assholes, but you cannot back track far enough, until you take back the bigoted and extremely fucked up label of moral.

There is absolutely nothing that necessarily states anybody is lying or not living authentically because they choose to worship in private, do not approve of you talking about their sexuality as you only have the right to yours and those you share your life with.

You can throw every bullshit excuse, any unequivocal parable, stick to your ignorant, bigoted guns

these are the days when lies and bullshit cannot and will not be mistaken for truth, so your words will be seen for what they are, and mine for what they are, for as much tasteless insults that are posted on slog, you'r think you ignorant fucks could handle someone telling you to fuck off

but not everyone can take, what they willingly dish out

so be it

then delete my words you fucking space-invading-cowards

~Dusty

What a performance!
Ladies and gentlemen I give you.........Dirtclustit !
http://www.altepeter.com/misc/giftopng.p… ://altepeter.com/stuff/imgs/applause.gif

Well that didn't work. :(

You might want to switch to text only/non-graphical browser before clicking on dip shit's link, for some reason the standard disabling of all plugins, add-ons, and script, the rapist-mentality invasion of your personal private files without your consent is what cracker-bigots do.

You know, when you just constantly spew obeenities at people it stops having any impact. It just makes people not pay attention to you.

If you want to convince people of your position I recommend Turing to have a rational, adult conversation and not an obscenity laced, hyperbolic string of frothing at the mouth rambling.

I stopped taking you seriously about four of your posts ago.

Reiterating the same things, only with more hyperbole and more obscenity doesn't move the conversation foward and is poor debating.

Just a tip there Hemingway.

@54: that's what I get for trying to be fancy on my phone. :)
Thank you for the tip!

Hemmingway to 55:over

What else can I do when some trendy, eliteist group takes it upon themselves to employ the exact same bullshit controlling manner once pulled on them by the false-Christians, and decide that is the best route to take for achieve equality among society?

And once these idiots get going, they need to squash all opposition -- which should give you the first clue it's a dumb idea as resorting to propaganda is only needed for false movements -- if you and every other slogger cannot honestly wrap your head around the fact that there is a difference between being supportive and supporting those who want to come out without belittling or shaming those who don't believe in being out publicly, there is nothing for me to say except call you on being stupid.

Besides it being morally and ethically wrong to overstep boundaries and attempt to influence the personal lives of people you don't share your life with ------ which you would not be doing if you simply supported those who desire to come out, without adding the bullshit, idiotic description of it being a person's moral obligation to society ------

besides that there is the whole idea of how few people understand the meaning of sexuality, how these enforced labels and colors themselves can actually be oppressive when people believe the lies of each label and believe the bullshit understanding that the entire rainbow of all colors of sexuality is there's to experience, the same as white light contains all colors

Sexuality and Spirituality is a part of Human life, there is no need to confine yourself to one color of it. The problems arise when people believe the lies of those whom they should know better than to be influenced by some dip shit's understanding which is grossly lacking when it comes to anything other than one color

there is a difference between good deeds and good intentions

in this specific subject, a good deed would be to provide support for the many people whose situation is similar to Ellen Page. Support those who desire to come out

the good intentions which pave a road to hell filled with suffering is the route slog has chosen, which is to claim those who are not out are not authentic, that their behavior is a moral failing, and whatever re-worded description you and idiot sloggers have adjusted to justify your good intentions rather than choosing good deeds

I will say it one more time, but it's likely pointless, however maybe someone other than Dan or the idiot commenters here will read and understand

the people who are morally failing to meet the obligations of deserving this life of comfort, freedom, and liberty are the ones who remain silent when they witness injustices such as bigotry against others

:over and out

@50 Thanks :-)