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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Clearly if we don't lower the minimum wage to $3 per hour for businesses that Christopher likes we are just resigning ourselves to a city where Chase, Subway, and Office Max are the only businesses that can survive.
So what I get from the Stranger comments on the MW is this:
If a business is successful and makes a big profit, they are "the evil 1%"
If a business isn't as successful and doesn't make much profit. "screw them! They suck at running a business."
Damned if they don't, damned if they do.
And its always nice to see so many "tolerant liberals" cursing this Latino man and his small business.
Behind every white liberal socialist is a racist prick just waiting to come out.
the argument of this posting does seem to be of the form:
if an example can be found of someone who makes by the sweat of her or his own brow less than the proposed minimum wage, then the proposed minimum wage increment is somehow inappropriate. and (if so) then i hollar:specious sir! specious, up your codpiece.
But the most business savvy ones (and perhaps the ones most fortunate to find just the right niche) do make it.
If the minimum wage goes up, ALL the coffee shops -- including Cintli's competitors -- will pay higher salaries, and nearly all of them will slightly raise prices. Then the people who want expensive coffee will pay a bit more. The business owners that learn to operate in the new environment will succeed, and will continue to employ people, and things will be pretty much the same -- except that the lowest earning employees will have a little more financial security, which is the whole point.
And those same higher prices you just mentioned will destroy what "little added security" those low wage workers find themselves with. That's the point.
The question we have to ask ourselves is this: is it worth sacrificing the small businesses of folks like Rafael Sanchez in order to help 100,000 working people make something much closer to a living wage? I mean, it sucks that it has to be a zero sum game, but that problem is much bigger than Seattle, and it shouldn't prevent us from making a difference where we can, in our city.
And it's funny how conservatives suddenly don't trust the vaunted American entrepreneurial spirit if a $15/hour minimum wage is passed. What happened to your faith in good ol' capitalism? There's a lot of money to be made in this city through unique, niche businesses, and someone will find a way to make it. Will there be an uncertain transition time before that happens? Probably. But it will happen.
For the record, I think that what Sanchez said about society's failure to be equitable is 100% correct. I just don't think we use that as a reason to stop working toward something better right here at home.
How much is "enough to live on"? It is a different number per person. A single adult has a different "living wage" than a single parent with three kids.
And according to UW, a living wage in Seattle is 10.62/hour as of 2011. Source: http://blog.seattlepi.com/capitolhill/20…
That was three years ago, so lets just say it's 11/hour. How the hell do you get from that to 15/hour?
Rafael Sanchez is a smart man & it is so sad that we won't have his business to patronize on Broadway. It was a much needed indie spot that had great service and great product. Closing a business is a heartbreaker. Best of luck to him, Bento & the staff.
Second, about the "instant vacation" part, this place always irked me because it was not about Latin American culture, but about Latin American kitsch stereotypes. This is not how Latin America looks or feels to anyone, other than the tourist who goes there in search of "the exotic".
And on the $15/hour thing, did this guy just say that government intervention and regulation of markets are there to benefit the big businesses? I mean, did he even pay attention at what caused the crisis? This reads like a Tea Party manifesto.
The problem with your logic is multi-faceted.
First - you're basically saying "don't run a business. Period" because most, if not all business, start in the red for years. But some, and it's a tiny minority, are able to punch through and thrive. Guess what happens when a business thrives? People make money. Making money is good. But it takes a risk and typically humble beginnings to get there.
Second - This article isn't a woe-is-me, really. It is a reflection of the situation thousands of businesses are in: most (like the aforementioned point) struggle. They may not struggle forever. Some will simply close (as in this case), some will get absorbed, some will stabilize and make money. Considering how precarious many businesses are in, changing the environment in which the businesses operate so drastically will have very severe fiscal effects. This is bad. Buying power and increased competition for work is a whole different point.
Third - and this is a really irritating theme - which is worse: somebody who has a job that pays poorly or no job at all? You'd be a fool to think the latter.
Fourth - Why are people, such as yourself, so quick to condemn people for trying to start a business? Sure, they should assume the risk, but we should appreciate that people are trying to take a risk to start a business. Otherwise we have fewer jobs (see point above).
Fifth - Why should people be required to be paid to live in Seattle? Myself and over 200,000 folks commute to Seattle because, in large part (but not universally) Seattle is too bloody expensive to live in.
"Fuck you. No, seriously - fuck you."
"Yeah, this article is complete bullshit."
Working hard to win hearts and minds, eh? With attitudes and reasoning like that, no wonder you are all making minimum wage and it will be no surprise that--coupled with hordes of people with the same exact attitudes--this falls on its face.
WHO is starving? Yay, hyperbole!
Speaking of faulty logic (yours), why not mandate that commercial landlords not increase rents by more than ___ percent per year? Or, hell, apply the same limits to increased rents as are applied to residential leases, any increase over 10 percent requires a longer notification period.
Are you aware of how many small businesses in Seattle have been driven out by rising rents or new development? Mr. Spot's gone. B&O Espresso gone. The Viking gone. And those are just the most beloved examples. There have been several failed businesses in the former Mr. Spot location over the past several years.
If the government guarantees small businesses a cheap labor pool, then why not cheap rent?
I make almost double minimum wage, asshole.
He was an expert, and here you have people not understanding the basic mechanisms of being in business. That first person, the "No, seriously - fuck you." person? That person simply cannot comprehend your point, which to me was that even good businesses run by good people will have a tough time in business in general, must LESS if they must now afford this ill-considered rise in the MW.
I feel terrible for this guy. I know how hard it is to find the courage to sign a lease, to fix up a space. I know how scary it is to have to think about letting employees go - those employees who rely upon you for their well-being.
Thanks for this story. I'm sorry that it's an abject lesson for so many on the back of a fellow who sounds like a smart, accomplished, good person.
Here is a piece by that evil corporate giant Dick's Drive-In. Dick's used to be an example of a good civic minded employer that encouraged forward advancement of it's employees with it's child care, 401k, $10.25 starting wage, and education scholarships. But according the 15 NOW crowd they pay slave wages and don't deserve to be in business.
http://seattletimes.com/html/opinion/202…
Here are two more articles advancing a rational, pragmatic approach to a minimum wage increase, which most including small business owners support if done not driven by ideology over facts & pragmatism. 15 NOW, congratulations you have gotten everyone's attention and advanced the conversation, but now the other side of the argument is voicing it's opinion, which is has a little more practical experience than the never been in business Sawant. Prepare for your ideas & agenda to be challenged & I hope you can come up with a better response than, "f*ck you, you lying, greedy, exploiting small business person."
http://blogs.seattletimes.com/opinionnw/…
http://seattletimes.com/html/opinion/202…
You said "you are all". How else was that to be interpreted? Why are you playing coy at being a dipshit?
"A low wage is better than no wage!"
Recentering the whole debate around business and casting the poor and struggling back into the shadows is shameful, but this is how these things play out. Business will calmly make their case to the media -- the working poor don't have time -- and in turn papers and blogs will churn out stories about how job-killing regulation is harming real down home folks out there. You'll get profiles of business owners that take up pages, but stories about the real working poor, the ones that say they need this wage increase? Those are nowhere to be found.
It's interesting that progressives, liberals and moderate democrats will heap scorn on republicans, but when it comes to it many will jump when told to jump by people whose bottom line is at risk. They'll be coached into the kind of narrative methods work best, what type of business story works best (unique, quirky shop? Gold! Struggling owner? Gold!), and how best to counteract any implication that the system is rotten inside and out by saying that the current system is better than any theoretical system in the near future ("you don't want box stores, do you?").
Thing is, though, there is increasingly no honest debate going on. Folks ask: why are proponents of $15NOW so loud? Because of stuff like this. It's the shameless promotion of pro-business/free market narratives that drown out the voices of every day people. It's broad brush suggestions that maybe people make enough already, maybe they should move out of Seattle, maybe they aren't good with money or maybe the problem just isn't so bad right now. These sorts of suggestions show up more than the real stories of the working poor. And that's a shame. That's why $15NOW is getting loud, there are real stories purposely being drowned out.
Sure, it's sad that a business closed, but businesses close every day. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, outside of the firewall being built by those sympathetic to efforts to undermine the push to a $15/hr wage, there are people living and dying in this system. 40%+ of people of color, 70% of native americans railroaded into low wage jobs, 2/3rds of tipped jobs being worked by women who have to navigate a sexist abusive system that dehumanizes them. And nobody is telling their story.
Sad.
The near complete editorial turnaround after Goldy left is astonishing. I was hemming and hawing on many aspects of $15/now but I'm inclined to go all in Yes just a fuck you here.
Whenever these discussions come up, whether it's tax policy or wages or some other regulations, people always climb out of the woodwork to go to bat for the absolutely most marginal businesses that can barely scrape by even under the best, cheapest conditions. Sometimes businesses just fail, and I'm not interested in basing government policy on a good outcome for some some restaurant straight out of Kitchen Nightmares.
Words cant describe how you just piled as much rhetoric as you possibly could into one post. Who made you Judge & Jury of what is fair and what isnt. You speak of poverty as if you can vicariously speak through the tortured life of a MW employee ..Its very bigoted of you to speak on behalf of minorities as my wife is one and are most of her employee's who dont share your view(amazing isnt it).
You assume that a Minimum wage going up is fair and that MW worker should be given a fair shake in life. Were in agreement there. But no business owner in their right mind thinks raising costs 60% overnight or in 3 years is Realistic!
So how about solutions..Raise the Minimum wage to $15 but over a 8 year period and then set a Cola adjustment tied to inflation in Seattle thereafter. For Highschoolers or under 20 crowd put a training wage of $9.32 per hour in so that they have a fair shake at any of the jobs and their is an incentive for an employer to take a risk on them.
The immediate effect is that wages go up year one with the city of Seattle able to observe the economic impact and course correct if Unemployment were to go up. If it doesnt the wheels are set in motion.
"until they pay $15 an hour they are underpaying the workers."
What about the bars and restaurants paying their servers/bartenders/etc minimum wage but are walking out of there averaging $30 per hour. Are they underpaid? Should their minimum wage go up as well so they're now making $36 per hour?
Cool. Wouldn't have expected any less from you.
Sure, why not?
(PS: As I said before, this is a local issue. Please excuse yourself.)
I hope every one of you lazy motherfuckers loses your job and you end up homeless.
You arent worth the dogshit laying in my yard.
you stupid lazy fucks couldnt run a business if it was handed to you - what they hell do you know about economics - NOTHING.
For someone unable to afford food you seem to still have the ability to participate in an online discussion. If you can't see how that makes you unlike actual poor people then you have a serious entitlement mentality.
Also, raising costs 60% over 3 years? What business are you running where 100% of your costs are minimum wage workers who get no benefits or compensation other than a minimum hourly wage?
These guys all talk down to us like we're children and they're here to tell us what's what, and if you prod them just a little bit, you find out they're full of shit.
Did you fact check the stats about his business? Because we have a record of lying here. Nobody has released their books. Instead we get the business owners getting caught red handed making shit up, or else cherry picking only the portion of their books they want us to know about.
And then even if everything about Cintli is true, so what? Some businesses are terrible and deserve to fail. Some don't deserve to fail and fail anyway. It's one of the reasons small business owners are such martyrs.
What I'd like to know: how many small businesses survive five years in Washington vs how many survive that long where you only have to pay the Federal minimum of $7.25/hr. And practically nothing for tipped employees, $2.15. Why is there not one shred of evidence that Washington's $9.32/hr is bad for business? Not a shred. Where's the high failure rate? Where's the evidence that Washington is corporate-dominated and homogenous because our wages are too high?
Do these guys really think they'd have better odds out where they only have to pay $7.25? And if so, why did they come here? What is it about a city like Seattle that made them decide this was the place for them? I get the feeling wages were not the prime issue. Its the consumer market.
Salt Lake and Houston and Pocatello are "business friendly", but you don't have the customer base that you get here in Seattle, or San Francisco, or Portland.
So, what I'm reading is: you don't support a fair/living/decent wage.
Not a joke..A compromise by both affected parties. One where business owners stave off potentially closing up shop & mw workers get to $15
I am telling Bacon Cat not to speak for my wife and my employees. I stand by that. As for 60%
it is a 60% increase period at least for my business. My $14's will get a raise to $19 and my $12's will get alittle for $17. Thats B.S that the new guy or underskilled guy gets the same as them..not going to happen
I propose a new group of business owners Slogan "15 Later"..
8 year phase in & training wage for under 20 crowd so that they can compete and get a job! Not everyone goes to college 20% Unemployment for Teens sucks.
First, not everyone works "to live", as in pay all the bills. Some people live with partners who make more, are students, just want a second job for extra income etc. MW jobs are suppose to fill those niches, not provide a "real job" for people who need to pay a full cost of living.
Now, are people who should be working "real jobs" stuck in low wage ones? Yes, of course. Will this 15Now crap address that issue? No.
There have always been "side jobs" and "real jobs" in America, with places like cafes acting as "side jobs". No one ever worked at a cafe expecting to raise a family on it, except the management maybe. Jobs like this can't pay that much by the nature of their businesses and never did.
We should be focusing on providing real jobs and real job training for people so they can do something besides make coffee, instead of putting businesses out of business to give them more money to make coffee.
What would you do if your boss said tomorrow we are going to cut your paycheck by 60%? That's essentially what $15now is looking to do to small businesses. I know it's not exactly the same but if you think about it it's not far off.
Complete compensation and phase in over 5 years and you get my vote.
I thought this was a good article mostly pointing out how hard it can be to run a small biz.
"lots of formal education but absolutely no common sense."
And that sums up the 15Now Red Shirts perfectly.
Why does Sanchez question the motives of 15 Now? Because he disagrees with them? He doesn't ever say, but he does he paint a grim scene of corporate destruction that comes from god only knows where. If what he envisions was anywhere near true I imagine every large, corporate business would be hustling to get us to $15/hr tomorrow.
"The root problem isn't that workers aren't making $15." True, but it's a significant part of it and one we can do something about. Obama and Co' are working on the health care situation. If he thinks that raising the minimum wage is only going to cause more large chains to move in then he hasn't been paying attention; the large chains are already here. My god, did he not notice the Office Max Christopher mentions at the top of the piece? I haven't noticed wages going up, but I do notice these monsters are more ubiquitous than when I moved to this pretty town. And they're going to keep coming.
Charles Mudede constantly points out that most economists don't deserve the title. Or maybe I'm misreading him and he actually thinks the profession doesn't exist. Reading 'Sanchez the economist' Charles' pointed jabs at the discipline make more sense.
The strangest part of this article (which is actually a reminiscence or a romance) is the way Christopher shackles the collapse of this business (by forces that have yet to materialize, the 15 Now campaign) to the plight of his mother. That, sir, was one strange twist in a maze of them. If it's massive forces you want to rail against then by all means do so. If, however, you want to equate a campaign by the weakest political class in the country to the vile excesses of the banks you are not right minded. I'm not even sure you know what point you're trying to make because I have to hope that isn't it.
Thank you though Christopher for breaking the bland monotony of bar and restaurant owners being the spokespeople for small business in this conversation. Where are the retail business (besides Peter at Elliot Bay) owners? What about the folks with gas stations? The 7-Elevens? Those views are important, too.
What no one here appears to be acknowledging is that businesses like Sanchez's are what make Seattle. That regardless of your feelings about small business owners, all of the places you know and love ARE small businesses. They're small businesses run locally, and you can't get on board with that and expect to pass an uncompromising hike of the minimum wage without there being some significant fall out. So why not pass laws that act to protect small businesses by halting all this corporate welfare and taxing the massive abundance of multi-billion dollar corporations that are concentrated in the area?
This is what I would do, if I were to go about crafting a policy like this. I would go talk to Costco's people. Costco has the political clout to get legislation passed, as they showed with de-privatizing liquor. They also have fair and ethical work practices for their employees. If you could get them behind a corporate tax funded program to extend loans and other financial aid to Seattle small businesses (and let's face it, that's hardly a chip off the block if you bring Microsoft, Amazon and Boeing into the fold, too) and bring that to the state legislature.
Costco particularly has an interest in seeing small businesses flourish because they are a SIGNIFICANT supplier of goods to small businesses, particularly restaurants and cafes. That has to be accounted for- small businesses patronize other larger businesses. Cisco is a massive food supplier, why not shake them down for a little off the top? It would take a huge amount of political pressure, yes, but if you can get some muscle behind that lobby...
That's such a bizarre idea.
I grew up in a small Midwestern town. When I first moved to the city (Minneapolis for me), I couldn't wait to shop at a 7/11 (like on tv and everything!)
It wasn't until later that I came to appreciate the mom & pop stores I'd left behind...but, to me, the cities are where the chains are...
Now, moving to Capitol Hill to get away from the chains--I get that. (Remember when there was a Burger King on Broadway? I do. Seemed weird.)
And yes, it seems weird that there's an OfficeMax on Broadway now (but, there were plenty of times back when I lived on the Hill where I'd have LOVED for there to be one...but had to settle for what Fred Meyer had.)
i would love to know how much the rent was for this location. is the landlord charging through-the-fucking-roof prices (even by cap hill standards) because in another few years the light rail will be right across the street?
i wish i had taken a panoramic of the 4 blocks on that side of broadway between john st and republican about 6 years ago. can YOU name at least 5 of the businesses that used to line that side of the street?
oh, and btw- the dumbest-idea-for-a-business new tenant of that block HAS to go to nacho borracho. ("hey guys, i've got a great idea- you know that burrito place that just closed due to lack of business? LETS OPEN A MEXICAN JOIN THERE!!!!")
But my sympathy ends when I hear that the only way for your business to survive it to pay poverty wages to your employees.
So while I do have sympathy and understanding for small businesses, my greater sympathy is for the poorest among us who must somehow figure out how to survive on minimum wage. A minimum wage that has been slowly eaten away by rising inflation over the last several decades so that it is even less now than when it was first implemented.
its not so much that every small business owner is an asshole (though i'm sure there are a few)- its that the city has done such an absolute shit show of a job in providing access to income-relative housing in the area (by basically gutting any low income-medium income projects in favor of $1500 a month studios and $2,000 a month 1 bedrooms), that those of us who work downtown and on the hill and pretty much every other neighborhood in Seattle have been left with no choice but to raise some hell. Should someone who bartends or serves at Liberty be able to afford to live in the neighborhood where they work, and SUPPORT OTHER LOCAL BUSINESSES IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, or be forced to commute from everett? (and wind up supporting businesses there instead for things such as groceries/entertainment/and other random stuff)
Dreams and beliefs are tricky that way. You can give them the financial and legal structure of a business. You can build it, brand it and market it. In every way, it can look like a real business. It might even succeed for a time, but when tested by changes in the marketplace, a business adapts; a dream does not.
Having a great education doesn't usually serve to stop the passions of even the best and brightest of small business owners from attempting to build and nurture a dream into reality.
They (and by "they" I mean "we") either believe the dream will succeed - damn the facts and reality of others' failures - or they fear that a real analysis of the business idea might prove a dream killing undertaking that they dare not do.
They (sorry, didn't I say "we") want to believe in the dream so badly - and if it is going to succeed they better believe in it - that they don't take the time to do the work to prove that their business can actually make it based on cold, hard facts gathered from diligent research.
You won't find a dream in a spreadsheet or a sustainable belief in thorough research or tough, reasoned analysis, but if you do the work, have patience and are somehow gifted the fortune of good timing you might find a viable business in there, somewhere.
As a small business owner (both successful and failed), my words come from a point of empathy. As a small business owner, the experience of fighting for your dream's survival and watching your business die will wound you emotionally every bit as much as the loss of a relationship, pet or, possibly, a person in your life. You grieve, you try to learn. And, if you can, you try again.
All of that having been said, though, nothing in this experience makes for a good argument against a fair, living minimum wage. The $15 movement is about fairness. If you as a small business owners sincerely cannot afford to pay a livable wage, maybe, you need to examine your business model - either you're in the wrong business, doing it wrong based on market realities or using a bad ownership and compensation model for your business. Change the business, change the ownership and/or compensation structure (who needs employees when you have all be owners) or accept the failure and the lessons learned before the financial reality kicks the crap out of you.
@51 Is there any cap on the proportion of minimum wage jobs in an economy? Is there any mechanism to peg it to the number of people who 'don't need' a living wage? Is there any bar to offering minimum wage for full-time employment? Any way to ensure there are enough higher-wage jobs available for those who need and deserve them? Any way to stop employers from collectively suppressing the wage market and paying minimum wage to people whose skills and experience are worth more? No? So what earthly sense is there to saying these MW jobs 'should' only be 'side jobs'? In what way is that fantasy connected at all to economic reality?
I think it's that:
1. Small business owners don't tell the truth about where the money comes from and where it goes to anybody. Anybody. Ever. Whenever they talk about their business, they're selling something to somebody. They're never not selling. Between the IRS, lenders and investors, and their help, they can't imagine any circumstances where they reveal what their real books say.
2. It's tough. Competition is always tough for them, and they think of themselves as the world's special victims. They can't imagine letting down their guard and admitting they could give up one tiny advantage. Notice how they all like to be thought of as "supporting" higher wages, but then they turn around and propose a plan where they themselves don't pay higher wages. Only their competition. So it sounds like they're assholes, and liars, but all they're doing is competing. They're never not competing for any business advantage.
It's too bad they're so paranoid and so hard. Business is business, you know. But it means you can't take them at their word. You just can't. You have to demand evidence from them. They'll say anything. And a lot of them believe their own PR.
So they're paranoid martyrs who are constantly being told they're the backbone of America and they're our great job creators and everyone should kiss their ass. Remember how "Joe the Plumber" pretended to be a small business owner? It's like pretending to be an NYC firefighter on 9/11. It gets you laid, all that sympathy and glurge written about you.
It seems that when I see or hear someone representing 15Now, it's always an employee (who happens to work a crap, low-paying job) or an academic who's never run a business, but has all sorts of great theories from books, but no real-world experience. I expect it's the same as the people who screech on this forum about the evils of small business, but have never had the balls to try and start a business themselves.
I started a business at the very beginning of 2009. Not because it was a great time to do so, but because I had been laid off and this was my best option. It took a year and a half for that business to really generate any money, and now, after 5 years it's providing fairly well for me. But it was 18 months of living on a strict, tiny budget. Taking calculated risks with borrowing and hoping that none of my clients stiffed me. Small business owner doesn't come with a halo. I see lots of stupid business owners every day, making poor decisions about expansions, business changes, marketing, etc. But I will say this for each and every one, at least they had the will to try. They're not working behind someone else's counter and whining about how they don't get paid enough. If you have skills that you feel should be worth more money than your boss will pay, then find a new job, start your own business or seriously reassess what your skills are worth. In a lot of cases, you'll find you're not really that special.
If you needed the money to raise three kids, you wouldn't work at a bar. If you can't find a job better than a bar and you have three kids, the problem isn't that the bar doesn't pay you much, it is that you still WORK AT THE BAR.
We all grew up hearing the term REAL JOB and now it's like everyone has forgotten it. If these people can't find real jobs, that is the problem, not that working at a burger joint or a cafe isn't a real job because it was never meant to be.
i am a former manager at the largest brewpub/sports bar in the U District. A "chain" that professes to be "local". If you do the math, you can figure out the name.
It used to kill me that our busboys (normally a 18 or 19 year old from UW) would consistently, without fail, EVERY SHIFT, walk away at the end of the night making more per hour than my cooks (normally besting them by an avg of 7-10$ per hour). And its not like these cooks didn't work hard- on the contrary, we were a $5 million-a-year restaurant. These cooks busted ass. And most of them had at least one other full time job. And it isn't that they had to work multiple jobs because they lived in condos on the Hill- most of them commuted from Kent and Beacon Hill and Shoreline. Plain and simple- if you work tirelessly at a job, for a company-any company, mom and pop, large or small- you should be able to live comfortably relatively close to that company if you choose(not 2 and a half hours each way via metro). Fuck $15 an hour, I say give everyone $20. That would almost keep up with inflation.....
It's that contempt you hold for everybody else that's going to make it so hard to defeat the $15/hr initiative. You're "willing to try", and you think low wage workers are, in contrast, unwilling to try. Lazy. Whiners. People who think they're special. Joe the Plumber is the Real America!
In short, you're a Republican. Problem is, Republicans never win squat in Seattle. Republican contempt for the poor never won squat in Seattle. So you either have to fake being a pussy liberal, which will fail, or forfeit.
What all of you guys should be doing is saying, "Let lefty Seattle commit suicide! They're all pinkos, so we'll sit back and watch from business-friendly Boise or Oklahoma City. When Seattle is in ruins, the world will see we were right!" If you truly believe this will destroy Seattle's economy, then you've got to seize this chance to nip any future wage increases in the bud.
If $15/hr isn't a disaster in Seattle, it will start to spread across the country. Why not use Seattle to show the world what happens when you don't give the Job Creators their due?
It is because collectively, business owners have the power to suppress the wage market to the point where at the bottom end people can't live on the wages available. If a few employers are paying low, everyone else can too. Economic truth, right? Wage protection is what stops wages bottoming out at next to nothing. And because of the power of business owners, wage protection has not kept in step with inflation for a long time. Now the balance needs adjustment.
Do you really think you should be allowed to pay people what you like forever because you were 'brave' to start a business? Because you had the 'will to try'? Because you tightened your belt for 18 months? Or, more fundamentally, because you had access to capital that others don't? Why does any of that entitle you to profit from helping to suppress wages?
I have a business interest in the area, thus, this is my business. Sorry that's hard for you to understand.
@48 "These guys all talk down to us like we're children"
Because most of you act like children on here. I'm really surprised some people are still taken the 15 Now camp seriously in any capacity from the type of attitude and immaturity shown on here and elsewhere.
"The Small Business Administration says it's closer to almost 4 out of 5 survive the first two years. Even at five years, only three out of five have shut down."
The SBA, citing the U.S. Dept. of Commerce, Census Bureau, Business Dynamics Statistics and U.S. Dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, BED, says 3.5 out of 5 survive at last two years, and 2.5 survive 5 years. Or, do you just round up to make your point stick better?
This, of course, is very broad across all industries. Bars/restaurants are significantly higher in number that close within the first 4-5 years.
Click on the link. It's right there.
@75
Now you're talking. If you guys really believe your rhetoric, you've got to take this chance to prove it. This is so much like "Going Galt" isn't it? At the root of it is that the "children" who depend on you to create their jobs don't appreciate you.
Only one way to make them appreciate all you do. Run the experiment.
(Of course I don't think you really believe your rhetoric, hence trying to have it both ways, e.g. Dave Meinert.)
@75 Very dramatic. You're assuming no market elasticity for small businesses, despite how much they are apparently cherished and supported by each other, let alone anyone else.
... although in the other thread you said that you're a bartender in Cali. Must be some business.
@74 I'll do what I want regardless of what you think or say. I do bartend, amongst other things. Having a business interest elsewhere isn't all that difficult.
Lol, boohoo at the man going lengths to "shut down a living wage in Seattle".
Nothing against this or other small business owners but it sound like their problem was low sales not high wages. As was pointed out in here the two owners were basically working full time for free and they don't have to contend with a $15 wage now and they're still failing. Either they needed a more appealing product or better advertising to increase sales and stay open. Absent that, it sounds like they'd still fail even if we dropped the minimum wage to $5.
I also take exception to the owner's assertion that "Historically it has been proven, any time the government tries to intrude with price ceilings, price floors, they end up just fucking it all up." This is not objective fact from an educated economist (but then again economics is not even an objective science anyway!). This is the sort of sentiment you read in the WSJ opinion page. I offer as a counter example to this false claim our nation's ag policies for farm commodity price stbilization and grain reserves pre- Nixon/ earl butz.
If it's not working for you, try just clicking on the headline or on "link" right next to the comments.
Spoiler alert: the cafe closed.
The study was done by the Democratic Washington State Treasurer, who suports the minimum wage. It was on the last time there there was a significant minimum wage increase, 27% over two years in 89' & 90' and of the 100,000 people who got an increase 1 in 10 had lost their job due to the increase. Washington also experienced inflation of 7.4% in 90' & 5.8% in 91'. These were well above the national avg. & the highest Seattle has seen since. This was the effect of a 27% raise over 2 yrs, what would happen with a 60% raise in 1 yr? No one knows because it has never been done. But to suggest that it wouldn't cost jobs & cause inflation is either ignorant of history & economics,tor disengenious.
I like your hypocrital comments about name calling on former threads and then resort to it yourself. You know the one where I called you "Garbage".
And its also nice to see you resort to labeling a dissenter of the$15 a republican.. Dreaded label you think trumps any argument. Get a new one seriously
What do you do for a living that have so much knowledge of the inner workings of a business owners. I mean post after post you pretend or at least fake like you know how to run a business and its us greedy republican slave labor business owners that are holding back the little man. But you on the other hand are such a charitable empathetic activist who sheds a tear for MW tortured souls..Plz!! Like you have lended even a fraction of your time and money like many of the people you rip on. Many of these business owners BTW pay their employee's above $15 such as me, donate to many charitable organizations & spend a great deal training and mentoring those who we care about.
Between you and diner mo you should join ranks for the biggest pack of idealistic sycophants this message board has.
BTW Polling is now 71% in Favor you being called a Douche...seems to keep going up !!
Finally, there are some good reasons to proceed with caution on $15/hour, but nit picking individual anecdotal examples, especially completely irrelevant ones like this, is not advancing the discussion at all. Its just making it much much dumber. 15 Now supporters understand there is going to be a cost to this and that cost is going to fall on business owners and consumers. But low wage workers have been bearing societal costs for an eternity. Its really nothing to cry about if one time, in one little tiny corner of the world, the have's shouldered the burden of change instead of the have nots.
Republicans are real. They exist. They have a well-defined set of beliefs. When you listen to a full rundown of those beliefs, the obvious conclusion is, hey, a Republican. Great! Republicans do win elections. There are voters out there who hear all this stuff about how great business owners are and how low wage workers just need to work harder and have some courage. They eat that stuff up. But those voters are not here.
You're out of ammo and all you have left is name calling. It's sad to watch.
Love,
Idealist Sycophant
Not to be pendantic (Im going to anyway), but a minimum wage increase in Wa State has zero chance of causing inflation. Inflation of the dollar is not determined at this scale. There may be local price increases, but that is not inflation.
Just my general comment on the article; Wages are not the right way to mould the character of a city. If you want more "cute" businesses, controlling wages is not the way to do that. Instead of fighting the rise of wages, this paper would serve its ad customers better by trying to lower taxes on those businesses. Create an incentive structure. Something like that. I dont want to live in a city where there are lots of "cute" stores that pay their workers poverty wages. That sounds like a gilded age to me.
The minimum wage is there as a protection against poverty. Right now its not doing its job, and must be adjusted.
If that's their prerogative. I guess I should have acted like you though, "Fuck you! You can't talk about this! This isn't your business! Zip it! We don't care about your opinions!"
They had every right to be here, just as those from out of state that came here to support Prop 8.
And, by support, I mean oppose Prop 8.
Error on my part.
I haven't heard one even hint at negotiation or compromise with you and 71% Douche over $15now!! So I would categorize you as being a wasted cause and vote for that matter. Your in the tank and your vote is taken for granted.. Just a bunch of pawns who feign empathy to protect the "seattle way".
As for facts how about both of you reference the Bloomberg National poll stating that MW is only 45% in Favor of if it kills jobs. 68% in Favor of it if it doesnt. Is Seattle an outlier to this poll? You know the one that raises the minimum wage by roughly 40% instead of 60% here.
Once again. Have either of you ran a business? All of your posts reference how it should be done? Please do tell us of wise sage..LOL >
You wont but you will tell all of these progressive democrat business owners that they are Republican because they think your a douche. You have more of the Tea-Party ideology (polarized) one sided view then any of these business owners.
Idealist Sycophant Diner MO * Closet Tea Party Bigoted Spewing @ 76
I dont think your argument holds on this scale of inflation of the USD. What youre talking about it local price adjustments having an effect on the local cost of living. A widget maker is capable of influencing the cost of things involving widgets, but not really the cost of a USD. The supply of USD isnt a fixed number, and a lot of the business of the Fed is to manipulate that number to try to control the value of the USD.
If the Saudi's dropped the USD as their currency of choice, that would probably cause inflation.
Raising wages for what, 100,000 people? (ive seen that number thrown around.) Yeah thats no bigs. Thats a raise of $4/hr for 0.034% of the (legal) population of this country. Your latte might be $0.25 more in that sliver, but inflation? No way.
I'm not even sure if will effect cost of living that much. Maybe, but am I sure? No.
The total dollar cost of giving 100k FT min-wage workers a $4.50 raise is $0.9B
($4.5*40*52*100,000)
The GDP of the MSA in 09(middle of Recession) was $218.8B. The annual research budget of the UW is $1.2B. This isn't really an insane amount of money we'd be putting into people's hands. Even locally. That's what...0.4% of the wealth(in 09, a low point) going to the poorest workers in the region.
It's hard to have discussions that approach the level of "negotiation" or "compromise", let alone respectful dialogue, when one is not starting with the truth, or at least a straight story.
This idea about "protecting the Seattle way" - if it were protecting the Seattle way, wouldn't we be arguing for keeping the status quo, not changing it? I keep noticing this up-is-down, left-is-right rhetoric from you and others arguing with you: supposedly those who want a living wage for all workers are "like George W Bush" or "the Tea Party". How does this work again? Do you really have to strain that hard to convince yourself that paying people a poverty wage is progressive? That kind of strain is not good for the bowels. I recommend fibre and the honesty provided by a small hand-mirror. A turd is a turd is a turd.
As for polls, to be clear, I'm not personally very interested in them. They don't give a very good indication of what is ethical, only of what is popular. My point here is that it's not ethical to secure your access to profit by ensuring others live in poverty. That's the point you keep avoiding. Ethical arguments do tend to be one-sided and relatively uncompromising, like, say, arguments for civil rights, universal franchise, the right to trial, etc.
Have I run a business? Yes, in fact, but I don't think it matters much. What matters is what we all know: if the legislation allowed it, some businesses would increase their viability and their profit margins by skipping insurance, health and safety practices, tax, and *any form of fair compensation for labor*. And if some businesses were allowed to do it, all businesses would "need" to do it. Look around the world. Look at labor practices in places where there are few legislative protections. It's just the truth. Good legislation and its enforcement is the only thing that protects workers from dying in mines for 10 cents a day. But legislation has to keep abreast of the cost of living and current labor practices, or it's irrelevant. US minimum wages have not done that. It needs to change.