If she's going to drop the Catholic monogamy, then she will hopefully drop the Catholic guilt, too. Early in the relationship could mean they weren't necessarily steady yet, and she is clear about not having cheated during the marriage (and even most of the courtship), so I hope she can give herself a pass there.

But as for confessing, maybe don't say she cheated on every previous boyfriend? Maybe she can just say that she's always had those feelings, but it's reading Dan that has changed her willingness to admit it to herself, or something like that? Which would also be true, right?

Okay, she strayed before marriage, at the tender age of early 20's and worries about keeping her vows? Don't talk about that, its water under the bridge and more hurtful to dredge up now.

How's about being honest about the present and saying that she loves her guy with all her heart but shes finding monogamy more difficult than she thought? He wants a MFF threesome, Awesome!

Go from there. Might be liberating; offering up discussion points and options, or it might be terrifying. But it's better than living a life constrained by the rules set forth by whomever.

Just a thought: try to address his concerns. He says non-monogamy would help you (the letter writer) more than him, because you're better looking. Well...could you offer a deal where you get to have the occasional fling, but also promise to help him find partners to fling with (in or out of threesomes)? Maybe even a promise that you won't have more partners than he does? I'm not sure exactly how it would work, but if that's what he's talking about, it's just possible that he'd be more open to it if he sees a way to get more out of it. Good luck.

"He is sure I would benefit more from this type of arrangement...I am better looking and more outgoing."

Um, yeah. Not so much a concern as a universal truth.

I think I disagree with you Dan. Girl sounds crazy. Husband deserves better. She needs to either become better with some CBT or she needs to go.

Dan's suggested course of action feels like a manipulative chess game to me. So, she has the MFF with him basically to set him up so she then has leverage towards a situation he isn't going to like.

He doesn't like the idea of you with another man. The wording in the letter suggests to me that he wouldn't like you with another man at all -- not in an MFM, and even less in a situation where you get to go free agent.

Are you grossed out by the idea of an MFF? If not, then you are bargaining something that is not distasteful to you (the MFF) in exchange for something that is highly distasteful to him (MFM, or worse, MF-no-him.) That is not an equitable bargain. Not nice of you to offer it as bait. Not nice at all. If he feels he has been maneuvered into an untenable position, there will be a LOT of resentment, and if he walks, calling you a bad-faith dealer, it wouldn't be a lie.

If you want this to work, figure out how to arrange it so that he gets as much benefit out of the new rules as you do. That means addressing his concerns and making sure that he doesn't end up with the short end of the stick. That's not just about the way the new rules are suppose to be set up, but in how they play out.

His concerns about you getting way more action than he does, should he say yes to the deal, is pretty damned likely, especially if he is tentative about the whole deal. Figure out how to make sure that it's a win for him, every bit as much as it is for you.

@3: Agreeing with your suggestions, and amplifying on them: LW probably had better make sure she lavishes some serious gratitude-type attention on him within the relationship, in exchange for stepping outside it occasionally. If the new freedom is met simply with business as usual at home, while displaying obvious enthusiasm for going out with someone else, he is going to feel like she is losing interest in him.

He should not be made to feel that it is on him to up the romantic ante at home, to offset all the romancing she is getting from someone else. If he thinks he has to compete for her attention he is probably going to feel very threatened, and either pull the emergency brake, or say "fuck this shit" and file for divorce. She should be romancing HIM good and extra, to demonstrate good faith.

Can't be said enough times: it won't be enough to try to make him merely comfortable with or tolerant of this. She is going to have to figure out how to make it a genuine improvement in her husband's situation.

This is why you shouldn't date above your own attractiveness bracket. I remember being in that spot, engaged to a much hotter girl who came clean on wanting an open relationship. I sure wanted to make things work, but I just couldn't get past the feeling of being used, being the stable dependable "filler" relationship to tide things over between more exciting escapades. Dying a little inside each time she was out with her boyfriend. Moral of the story: Stick to someone who isn't more likely to find sex partners than you are.

Regarding the whole "don't date/marry above your hotness level" attitude: I don't know that it's a question of the woman being objectively more attractive than the man; it's my observation that all things being equal, or even when the man is the more objectively attractive of the couple, it's simply easier for a married or otherwise attached woman to be able to find willing male sexual partners, even if--perhaps especially because--she is unavailable as a long-term serious romantic prospect. Whereas a straight married or otherwise romantically committed man, no matter how attractive, is going to have a harder time getting women to agree to becoming his piece on the side, even if--perhaps especially if--his wife or girlfriend is aware of the situation.

@9 I would feel bad, but how many times has a guy lied about being in relationship? And if they fib about that how am I suppose to believe they have their wife's blessing? And even if I do believe that how am I sure it's a solid consent and not one based on fear of divorcing and raising/supporting one's children singlehandedly?

@5 I don't think she's crazy, but obviously this isn't working so I agree a split would probably be best. Especially, if they don't have children.

@11: I don't understand. What would you feel bad about?

Dollars to donuts, this will end badly.

Huh, come to think of it, that idiom must have been coined when donuts cost much less than a dollar...

But unless the husband discovers he has a latent cuckolding fetish, I just don't see a happy ending here.

There is no way the husband doesn't get hurt. That ship sailed a very long time ago. No moralistic judgments about the merits of mono, poly, or whatever relationships entered into "knowingly and voluntarily". However, as a basic premise, lies, deceit, and betrayal (doesn't matter about what) are just plain wrong and do warrant guilt and condemnation. Are there exceptions, of course, but in this particular instance the LW provides no indication that her husband did anything to warrant being treated so disrespectfully. At its core, a marriage is simply a contract between two (or more) individuals. To knowingly misrepresent material facts when entering into any contract is fraud. Harsh though it may be, a strong case can be made that a marriage, in fact, never existed.

I do hope the LW wasn't foolish enough to keep a journal or tell anyone else about her cheating. I also hope she severed all (and I mean all past, present, future actual or potential) contact with the men she cheated with. Even if they open their marriage, I again hope she realizes that none of those (men or women) can be a sex partner.

I realize now that after writing into an advice columnist, you obsess over the omissions that could have told a better story. We have no children. My husband also already cheated on me once, while we were married. I forgave him quickly and easily and did not feel threatened by him sleeping with another woman. This happened years ago, which is why I forgot to mention. But, he isn't perfect and neither am I. And please, number 16, don't tell me that if we omit anything about ourselves to our partner that the marriage is essentially non existent. How many men out there don't tell their wives they jack off to porn? Oops, not married then according to that logic. Anyways, I appreciate the feedback particularly because it helps to have perspective on issues that you can't hardly talk to anyone about. I do think that if I make this a good thing for him, possibly bring some threesomes his way, he will feel better. We are committed to each others happiness, but maybe a bit naive sexually. We are learning, but have a good foundation to build from. Ok, going to stop reading the comments now for my own sanity.

He already cheated on you? Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty relevant detail.

I think it's time to come clean. The bloom is already off the rose.

Thanks for writing back, Secret @17. I do think avast is basically right @7 that it's on you to figure out how this change improves your husband's life (and if it doesn't, then the marriage isn't likely to survive this change).

When my husband and I opened our marriage (him enthusiastically, me with anxious trepidation), what brought me around within the first month was how much hotter our sex life became. We each maybe had sex with someone else a couple of times a month, but our sex together went from once a week (pre-opening up) to like three times a day. It was insane. And hot. As our sex with other people has dwindled in the years since, we have also cut back from that crazy pace with each other, but we still have more frequent sex together than we had before opening up.

Do you know what drives your husband wild in bed? Double or triple how often he gets that, and you can show that your heart is in the right place -- GGG, not just looking out for your own needs.

Other things to offer: generous budget & a bed. As a woman looking to get laid, you won't have many expenses. But a straight guy looking to get laid is (often) expected to pay for dinners, drinks, hotel rooms, concert tickets, etc., for him and his date. It's not right, it's not feminist...but if you're the one who wants to open up, being generous here could help you look like you have his best interests in mind.

If your husband can also have sex with his girlfriend(s) in your marital bed (or a guest room in your house), that will also boost his credibility as a potential partner. I wouldn't promise to find him sex partners -- for one thing that's emasculating, and for another, the kind of girl you can woo is probably more interested in you, not him. He's best off going out on his own or with a wingman to bars/clubs and trying to remember how to flirt and exude self-confidence.

Ms Secret - People who omit pertinent information from the letter shouldn't get snippy. If the pertinent information in question is provided but removed, then the editors deserve it. But, that minor quibble aside, given that his main response to the idea of opening is that you'll benefit more, and that you think he may come around but aren't sure how long you're willing to wait, we are clearly not in The Gift of the Maji here and the marriage reminds me of the round of speculation in which Miss Crawford, after paying an exorbitant amount for William Price's knave, wins the game only to discover that it does not repay what she gave to secure it.

@14 I was agreeing/sympathizing that it's unfair men in legitimately open relationships get the short end of the stick when it comes to getting sexual partners. I was just adding that my sympathy is somewhat mitigated.

@13 Yes I could see that working, though I wonder how many people take that approach. I couldn't compartmentalize well enough to be a piece or an open wife, so perhaps I should just be thankful I'm alone and not the LW.

A rule of the Savage Love comment thread, learned from reading through all of it: When EricaP and Avast2006 agree on something, they aren't wrong.

LW, you're asking him for something huge, something that is obviously going to be great for you and pretty awful for him. The trick will be to take actions, yourself, that will make him think it was a good idea.

@22: So the fact that some straight men do something you don't like means it's less unfair that all of them get the short end of the stick here, regardless of whether or not they, as individuals, did the thing you didn't like? Wow.
Bigots are so weird, even the nice ones.

It's even weirder when the thing you don't like is an attempt to mitigate the effects of the unfairness.

I have nothing to add to the other regular's responses to the original letter, but @9, I'm curious about this:

Whereas a straight married or otherwise romantically committed man, no matter how attractive, is going to have a harder time getting women to agree to becoming his piece on the side, even if--perhaps especially if--his wife or girlfriend is aware of the situation.

So, why is it that being transparent makes him less attractive? Is he more attractive because he's forbidden fruit?

@25: The reason why "open relationships" benefit women more goes back to the great apes. Remember, humans are just another type of ape. The average woman is most attracted to a man who she believes is clearly dominant, or powerful in some clear way. If a man's "wife" is running around with many other men, behind his back, despite his disapproval, then she says "Oh by the way I've been cheating on you, but it's okay because now you can too!" the man is going to instinctively feel betrayed, feel weak and abused, in his bestial brain, and that will affect his confidence. Not only that, but if he says "It's okay, I can be with you, my wife gave me her permission," he presents himself as subordinate to his wife, which will affect his ability to impress other women...remember, multiple surveys and polls have shown that 80% of women prefer a dominant man over a submissive man.

I am disappointed that Dan didn't have harsher words for this LW. She is seriously abusing her husband's trust. What if she gives him an STD? What if they do decide to have kids and then, whoops, the baby is the wrong color. Sorry! That could be massively, life-wreckingly bad news.

@25: I think I recall Dan having a column or two about that same phenomenon. But basically, yes. A man who's cheating with you is one who is willing to risk everything just to be with you. A man in an open relationship is risking nothing to be with you.

@26: That seems a little dubious--I assumed it was more about the fact that an average straight woman is going to find many more partners available for an affair than an average straight man will. And that therefore a straight woman--especially if she's the more outgoing and attractive one--is often offering an "open for me, closed for thee" relationship when she seems to be offering an equally-open one, because the risk that he'll actually be able to take advantage of the "opportunity" he's being offered is so much lower.

We've had a couple of letters, I think, about the female half of an open relationship freaking out when it turned out her partner actually could find other partners, and did.

@25: I'm only basing this on what I've seen or heard first-hand, what I've experienced, and what I've read anecdotally. I don't have hard data or definitive explanations, but I would guess that many women don't want to be the sexual partner of a man they know to be off-limits, romantically, to them. So many wouldn't be a piece on the side to a married man at all (moral qualms and issues aside), because he's unavailable. But others get off on the thrill of the "forbidden romance" of the affair--of feeling like she's the one who really understands her lover, or that he really wants to be with her--I mean, look at the risk he's taking to be with her.

There have been letters here in this column and on this thread if I remember correctly about just this phenomenon. I remember one man who said he was given permission to play by his wife and found several willing partners--willing to cheat and have an illicit affair. But when it was made clear that the wife knew and gave her blessing, the women were no longer interested. It's harder to maintain the fiction that this is a delicious thrilling love that way.

Obviously, all the standard disclaimers apply, and this column draws a somewhat higher percentage of women who are happy to participate in consensual non-monogamous frolics, or don't want love and romance.

@27, I am referring to what @28 says about women not finding it "thrilling" anymore if the husband has permission.

I agree and I think that Dan needs to stop recommending this arrangement to hetero couples, especially where one of the pair displays any reservation. Unlike Dan's relationship, man-woman dynamics are not symmetrical and this makes for very bad news more often than not in my book. I have had multiple male friends tell me of wives who begged for O.R., then divorced soon after when they found a "better" man to "upgrade".

@25: Short answer: Yes, forbidden fruit tastes sweeter to a lot of women.

@27: Jinx!

Mr Ven: I hope that you're feeling better now. If it cheers you in your convalescence, know that I just finished grading a batch of The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie papers--which were not so good, though one contained the phrase: "The Transfiguration of Sandy Stranger."

@Secret: If you can't even be honest with the advice columnist (oh, yes: husband isn't the innocent you made him out to be; he's cheated, too), it's hard to see how you and your husband can hope to make a go either of opening up your marriage, or of staying married at all.

@Secret(s): For the first time since I've started reading this column, I can say that I am in total agreement with both avast2006 and EricaP simultaneously. They offer good perspective and good advice--much better, in this case, than what Dan came up with. You should take a good look at what they have to say.

@Secret: If your husband confessed his cheating, why didn't you confess yours?

I suppose we could blame the evil institution of monogamy for your predicament, but if your relationship requires huge piles of bullshit to remain intact, which yours seemingly does, why are you two even together?

You're both leading inauthentic lives, your husband without even knowing it. I feel sorry for you.

@29: Oh. In that case, I wholly agree. My own experience seems to be in line with yours--though I'd add that open relationships proposed by the man tend to work out better (when they don't result in an immediate divorce or dumping). (1) It's like how a strict 50/50 split of expenses tends to work better when it's not being proposed by the one making more money.

(1)With the exception of one college friend's three-way "marriage" that is in its tenth year, but I don't know very much about what's going on there.

@30: Yeah, jinx. Does the first line of #32 make it double-jinx?
I think EricaP and Avast2006 have been in strong agreement only a few times, because (I think) Avast is kind and extraordinarily smart, and EricaP is smart and extraordinarily kind, and those traits often pull in different directions.

The other way I've heard that line about forbidden fruit is that women are more likely to want love, and men will usually settle for sex.

Hi! Thanks to the many who wrote in with supportive thoughts and comments (particularly #19). I appreciate it. To clear up a few things: my husband cheated, once, and told me right after. While this did bring about some great conversation, the timing never felt right to confess to cheating on him in the distant past and before we were married, and honestly, before we were in a totally commited place (we were 20 years old, in college, etc). I still don't know what the point of telling him about this would be. You have all given me more to think about, and I do not (now) feel I need to include this detail about past cheatings to articulate how I feel about open, monogomish, etc relationships.
Also, the detail about my husband cheating (once!) was not left out because I was trying to be dishonest. It just didn't feel particularly relevant, especially because it has very little to do with how I feel about monogomy. I am not a "tit for tat" person, and am not wanting to sleep with someone else to "get back at him." I don't see how my including this information would have supported different advice, but I do agree that it provides a better context (which is what I realized immediatly after this letter was posted).
In any relationship, you change. Sometimes you change a lot. I can't change what I did in the past, but I can move foward with honestly and hope that my change is in line with what he wants. Obviously he is ok with non-monogomy in some context ( he's down with a threesome!) but just not with me sleeping with another man. And, who knows, maybe if we have a threesome, that will satisify my needs. Only time will tell.

I think the power dynamic and the forbidden fruit dynamic are pretty persuasive. I think there's something about knowing you're so desirable you can take a man from another woman, or at least his sexual interest - it's like a little extra icing on the cake.

I'm not sure I can fully buy into the whole pack-power-structure dynamic (she lets him fool around, he's subservient to her); I think most of that has to do with where men fit in among other men in the male pecking order. However, I can believe that a man who is found to be attractive/desired by other women is therefore more desirable to most women probably loses some of that if it turns out his wife is like, "meh, whatever, you can have him".

Lizard brain indeed...so much for 'rational adults'...myself included.

Hm. A sticky situation with no clear correct answer. I hope she updates us in a few years.

@35: Thanks for filling in the info. And good on you for recognizing #19; it's the one with the best advice, and much, much better than Dan's.

One bit of only-maybe-useful advice: It'll never feel like the right time to own up to having done something wrong, so waiting for that feeling won't help--confessing hurts, and minimizing one's own misdeeds feels good, so it'll always feel like the right time to do the latter and never the former. I'm not saying you should tell him, just that if you were planning to tell him, but were waiting for it to feel right, change that plan. Either decide you're probably never going to tell him, or decide to tell him right now, or something like that.

If I'm misreading you and your plan is "I'm never going to tell him unless I suddenly feel like telling him for some reason," then never mind, because that's more or less what I'm recommending.

@Secret: Also, the detail about my husband cheating (once!) was not left out because I was trying to be dishonest.

You left out a highly relevant detail - your husband's cheating - when writing to Dan. And you left out a highly relevant detail - you cheating on your husband - when your husband confessed to cheating on you.

And then you claim you're not trying to be dishonest? You're not even honest with yourself.

@25 and responders: A few other reasons why "cheat with Wife's blessing" makes a man less attractive to a female:

-- That arrangement puts The Other Woman pretty clearly in the position of The Convenient Piece On The Side, as opposed to The Irresistible Siren, which is an unflattering light in which to view oneself.
-- Similarly, this guy is _very_ unlikely to leave his wife for her, which is something that many romantic partners hope for as an eventual outcome. How many affairs end when it becomes painfully clear that he/she made it clear that divorce was not an option? This is just that scenario, front-loaded.
-- To a certain extent, Wife knows more about Husband's relationship with Lover than vice-versa. That puts Lover at a social disadvantage compared to Wife.
-- The usual stuff about forbidden fruit being more exciting.

I am with @29 - open relationships are good in theory but much more tricky in opposite sex couples than Dan let's on. For my money, I would bet that good old fashioned cheaters in DADT (don't get caught) have longer marriages than those in open relationships.

We need a better definition of monogamist. Dan has already written (correctly, universally)that all men want to sleep with other women. Secret's husband clearly is no more monogamous that Secret is. The debate is whether he will become cool with her sleeping with other men. Nothing in this letter indicates he will be.

Apologies to SECRETS, if my comments came across as attacks. I was sloppy in using "you" with respect to being a bad-faith dealer, etc., chiefly because SECRETS hasn't actually done any of the stuff that I was describing that would merit that designation. That was all about the problems inherent in Dan's proposed solution.

I was also bothered by the inherent imbalance between SECRETS getting to have MF on the side, supposedly in direct exchange for more threesomes for her husband. That struck me as another unequal bargain. If she gets liaisons on the side without him, then he gets liaisons on the side without her. I realize belatedly, however, that that was an attempt to remedy the problem of it being harder for Husband to score his own liaisons than it will be for LW.

So I back off on it being an unfair bargain; it's more of a band-aid solution to a systemic problem. However, as some have noted, if she is doing the procuring, the women who are likely to say yes to her overtures are more likely to be interested in her than in him, which will only make the imbalance even worse. She gets liaisons without him, and she gets threesomes with women who are more interested in her than in him. In return he gets threesomes with women who are not particularly interested in him. Gee, welcome to Thrills-ville, population Everybody But Me.

You've got a tough sell, Secret. There's almost nothing in what you want that's attractive to your husband, and a whole lot that could make him deeply unhappy. My instinct would be to not try any funny stuff, but just make it clear who you are and what you've realized you need. And to do it warmly--you really, really have to feel and show the love when asking for something this huge. And if you emphasize how committed you've been despite your needs, that will help prove what a privilege it is to be married to him. The whole goal is to get him to realize that since this is just who you are, letting you sleep with others will not be the beginning of the end, but will actually deepen your commitment to your marriage, and to him. This notion is counter-intuitive to most people, some insurmountably so. But gratitude does make fantastic marital glue.

Also, you're working on calming his fears and challenging his false assumptions about what your sleeping with someone else actually means for him. If he's like every other man on the planet that I've ever heard of, he can imagine himself--easily--sleeping with someone else, without that denting in any way the love he has for you. That's your in. If he is kind and fairly straight-thinking, he will realize that what he knows himself capable of, should theoretically be possible for you, too. And if he can wrap his brain around that, then he just needs to work on his knee-jerk emotional reactions to the thought, with your kind help of course. If you do it right, he will eventually downgrade your sleeping with someone from "betrayal" and "sickening" and "gross" to "kind of crazy" to eventually "maybe I can handle it". And if he does that, you'll need to make sure the payoff for him is a big one. (Which does not mean being pouty and sulky until you get what you want--you'll have to work for this one. But you don't seem the type.)

Also--this is very important--emphasize that your needs are no fault of his own. There's a very good chance he could believe you're telling him that he just doesn't do it for you, and you need to get true satisfaction from someone else. It would be a shame if that was his take-away. I doubt you'd recover from that.

(This is no fault of his own, right? This is just who you are? Because if this is a convoluted way to get out of a marriage you can't admit isn't working for you, there are other ways.)

Anyway, that was all a long-winded intro to my actual thought: if you do manage to talk him around, maybe you could give him a head start. Like, not even begin looking for someone on the side until he's got his own lover hooked and landed. It is absurd--absurd--how much more interest you will get after opening your marriage than he will. Absurd.

I hope that these comments have made it clear you are asking your husband to voluntarily take the shit end of a stick in a deal he never wanted in the first place. Tough sell. Good luck with that!

Honest question to Secret: I'm not trying to sound overly judgy here, but why are you married in the first place? No kids, all these chinese walls full of indiscretions and secrets. What's the point? What's the ultimate goal? You both sound deeply unhappy.

Secret(s): In your letter you say: Do I ignore what I want, for the sake of this really great relationship?

The answer, inevitably, at many points in a long-term marriage, is yes.

There's a lot of self-denial that goes into making a couple work over the long haul. It is up to each person to figure out for herself what her non-negotiables are. No one else can do it for you.

Some people will say that being monogamous goes against your core existence or sense of self, so you should either only accept an open relationship or leave. Some will say that you should do what you need to do to make you happy, and if that includes cheating and lying and a life lived in secrecy, well, that's what you gotta do. Some will say that if your needs are being met, if your husband and you are having satisfying sex, and all you're missing is variety and novelty, then you're being childish and selfish in insisting on getting more elsewhere, when your husband is so clearly unhappy at the idea of this.

No one, not any of us, not Dan, not society in general, can know how important your desire for other men is. This issue might in fact be the one that you decide you can't ignore, or it might be something that you come to decide is one of those compromises and instances of self-sacrifice that being part of a couple requires from time to time. Others have made it, that's for sure.

But I think your question about whether you should just cheat and hope to get away with it signals a "have your cake and eat it, too" attitude that I don't think is a good idea. It erodes your respect for your husband. It creates a marriage based on illusion. If discovered, you risk losing even more than your marriage--you risk the loss of public approval, which is no small thing. If you end up having children at some point, you risk losing their daily presence in your life as well as their respect if your discovered infidelities, not cleared and approved in advanced, scuttle the marriage.

So whatever you decide is necessary for you, I would urge you to do it honestly. Live with integrity and allow your husband the information he needs to make a choice about how he wants to live his own life--surely he deserves that as much as you do, doesn't he?

I'd completely second 43, except for this: And if you emphasize how committed you've been despite your needs, that will help prove what a privilege it is to be married to him.

No, that's a shit move. She cheated repeatedly, and lied about it ever since; he cheated once and immediately confessed, and it sounds like she let him go on thinking he's the bad guy in the relationship for the last few years. When your commitment is fraudulent, playing the "I'm the pure one" card is disgusting. I don't think she should do that.

Other than that one line, #43 is truth. Especially the last two paragraphs.

If I could find a man who could prove he has his wife's enthusiast blessing, I would drag him into my bed asap.

Whereas everytime I approach a man without a ring, I wonder what questions should I ask, to accurately check against him being yet another bespoke-for monogamist lying his way into my affections.

Cheaters disgust me. So do women who money the sex for such lame ego boosts as "I stole him from her, I'm such a vixen !".

@46--The cheating was "before we married, and early on in our relationship." Since then, seven years of fidelity. Seven. Ever been married for seven years? I give her a pass.

And thanks.

How I wish Sissoucat spoke for the majority of women.

@nocutename: It erodes your respect for your husband.:

This.

And carrying this secret with you since the early days of the relationship? I can't imagine that's done much for her ability to feel intimacy towards him. I think she'd find relationships (monogamous or otherwise) easier if she actually gave them a chance to develop rather than immediately and persistently undermining them with her precious secrets.

@24 Bigot...ok...
And no it's still unfair, I suppose I was just commenting from my own experience too much (sleep deprivation and beer go lovely together). I just don't feel particularly horrible about not signing up to be a piece on the side. And I don't think anyone really has to feel bad about not wanting a certain sexual act or relationship just because someone else wants one. Like Louis C.K. said to an audience "awing" over his bit about people nobody fucks - "Why don't you go fuck them then?"

Why is it women think of themselves as a piece on the side, and men in the same situation think of themselves as some kind of Lothario? When in reality either one could just enjoy the relationship for what it is, neither more nor less.

Life is what you make of it, I guess.

@53 Because of this stupid sexist education we women receive : we must catch the man and marry the man to become whole beings with a purpose.

So I caught the man and married the man and never strayed and he curbed me into submission to his every whim by threatening divorce on my poor kids ! But I rebelled at last and I divorced and now when my kids are visiting him, I'm treating any adventure with like-minded people like a wonderful travel into uncharted waters. No way I'll be settling ever again.

@53, in case @54 was too verbose for you, I can answer you in a word: Slut-shaming.

Doing FMF in an attempt to leverage your husband into agreeing to MFM or MFx is likely to come off as manipulative and dishonest, which it would be, and is likely to fail in getting you the kind of nonmonogamy you want.

Doing FMF because you both are genuinely interested in doing it and not because it leads to something else could eventually lead to more comfort with nonmonogamy, more discussions about fantasies and feelings, and (with some time) eventually "full" nonmonogamy including some things you'd like to try that your husband is currently uncomfortable with. I've seen open relationships evolve like this many times. But it's far more likely to happen if you take the small steps for their own sake than because you're hoping it will pay off down the road (because it also might not, and that's a recipe for resentment).

And yeah, honesty is vital. So get in the habit of that first.

Ms Cute - Down to about a day and a half before I find out what's wrong, and it appears I shall probably not expire in the meantime. If I turn out to be one of those uninsured deaths, I'll try to decide in advance how to divide up my heavy quotation quotient. Thank you for your kind wishes. I hope your papers were at least marginally enjoyable.

I forgot earlier to applaud Ms Erica for raising the economic angle, but I suspect her concluding image of Husband going out on his own and recalling how to flirt and exude confidence is largely wishful. It's all right for people who enjoyed dating and The Scene, but men of Husband's ilk seem most likely to find that necessity to go hunting the least desirable aspect possible of opening the relationship.

A basic question for SECRETS, would your husband have married you or even stayed in the relationship if he had been aware of your cheating? I think not, given what you indicate as his attitude towards non-monogamy. Disclosure of your proclivity towards cheating should have occurred prior to marrying him. Water under the bridge, unless he finds out or you tell him. Either will be devastating to him at this late juncture. No way he doesn't feel manipulated and misused, particularly given your hope to open the relationship. You most definitely were not the person he thought you to be when he married you. The subsequent act of cheating on his part not withstanding, finding out that your marriage was founded on lies will not be a pleasant experience. How did you find out about his cheating and how did you react to it? Would he be justified in accusing you of hypocrisy?

@55: Not necessarily. Compare the self-image boost implied in each of the two scenarios.

a) Sneaking Around: I am so incredibly irresistible that he is willing to break his vows for my sake (i.e., woohoo, look at sexy me, I am way more attractive than Wife)
vs
b) Wife Knows and Approves: He's totally settled into his comfortable marriage and there is no way in hell he's going to leave her for me. (i.e., I am less attractive than Wife, evidently not as much of a catch as she is.)

There is also the idea that Wife must not think Husband is much of a catch if she's willing to casually risk losing him to a lover, and here even Mr. Reduced Value isn't remotely willing to consider replacing Wife with her, so what does that say about her relative value out of the three of them?

I'm not saying it's rational.

SECRET, if you're reading this, skip this comment. It's not about actionable advice for you, given that you're trying to stay in the marriage. I don't think you should, but that's not what you were asking.

@49: In ascending order of importance: The cheating happened early in the relationship, and was repeated, and then concealed for seven years, even when it became extremely relevant and concealing it constitutes premeditated cruelty. Her marriage is founded on lying to her husband, and her marriage has never been an honest one on her part. How is it worth saving?

Nonmonogamy works best with people who are honest and open, and that's not LW. It's her husband, maybe, but it's not her. The obvious answer is that she should divorce, and let her husband go marry someone he actually wants to be married to--rather than just somebody who will lie to him about being that person--and she can go marry someone who actually wants to be married to the person she really is. How is this not the better outcome for both of them?

We shouldn't hand out passes just because the serial cheater has told us how she rationalizes her serial cheating and extremely intensive campaign of dishonesty. Passes are for people who had no better choices, not for people who just didn't feel like paying what they'd have to pay in order to get what they want honestly.

Stealing is okay when you're starving and it's the only way to feed yourself and your kids. Stealing because all you have is a fifty and you don't feel like waiting for the cashier to count out the change is... not.

@60 How is her marriage worth saving? Because people change. And marriage is not easy, and she has proved for seven years that she's up to the task and has earned some indulgence for what she did quite awhile ago. When she was a teen, or twenty or something. Do you still want to be judged for what you did in your late teens?

I am no fan of betrayal, despite my comments on Tuesday's letter. It's easy to give lip service and say, "Oh, I'm not the same person I was then, I've changed," which is the classic bullshit way of avoiding consequences. But I think in her case it would be the truth, and she's provided the proof with seven years of fidelity, post-wedding vow.

@61: And marriage is not easy, and she has proved for seven years that she's up to the task and has earned some indulgence for what she did quite awhile ago. When she was a teen, or twenty or something. Do you still want to be judged for what you did in your late teens?

Not telling her husband who he's really married to isn't something she just did years ago; it's something she did today. And yesterday. And the day before that. And so on, for seven years, and for however long they were together pre-marriage. And now, she's thinking about cheating on him again, so that whole "I've changed" thing is clearly not happening here. It's not about the long-ago cheating, it's about being a serial cheater and constantly deceiving him about it, which she is still doing. Years-long coverups are far more damaging to intimacy than a spate of cheating.

We should issue passes when the alternative is "otherwise I'd have to live a miserable celibate existence," or "otherwise I'd have to leave my terminally-ill spouse," not when the alternative is "otherwise I'd have to own up to my own preferences, choices, and constant behavior, and in general having to be a grown-up."

Her whole marriage seems to be based on the fear that if he knew who she really was, he wouldn't want to be married to her. That seems like a crappy situation for her, and an extraordinarily crappy situation for him, and they don't have kids. I don't see how "break up before you hate each other, and both of you go find someone compatible" isn't better for everyone involved.

Plan B, "Get the husband to okay her non-monogamy" doesn't seem impossible, but it does seem difficult and necessitating a great deal of honesty, and the LW made clear that where honesty is concerned, she takes the easy way out.

I realize it is pretty easy to look at someone’s life through a microscope and make an assumption about what someone else shoulda/coulda done. It is even easier to pass judgement while sitting at a computer screen. I hope you all can imagine my difficulty with being as truthful as possible to a bunch of strangers, while being as non-descript as possible in order to protect my own identity. Do I need to spell out why we got married, why we are married, and what makes me love my husband? Or what makes him love me? Would you also like to know when I first lost my virginity? How about when I got my period? Please, almighty commenters, just let me know what aspect of my life you would find the most relevant, so I can spill my guts to you. I just can't wait.
Rant over. Sorry for the snarkiness, I should have expected this from a comment blog on a sex advice columnist’s website. Lesson learned. I hope that responding to my initial letter was helpful to some people, because it at least rounds out some of the details that would have been impossible to include in a single letter, and adds a layer of complexity that is present in all our lives.
To say that my husband knew nothing about past infidelities is not entirely true. He knew some things. He knew I cheated on previous boyfriends. He even knew about a few times that I had slept with someone else because me and him were on a "break." So, there has been some honesty. Probably not the amount of honesty that many of you feel is necessary, but some honesty. Just wanted to clear that up for the haters.
The more I consider things, the more I think he really wouldn't divorce me if I was like, "hey, so in college, I slept around some. I always used a condom, I always got tested, and it only happened a handful of times." This was like 8-9 years ago, people. I was a plane ride away from my husband (then boyfriend) in college. Yes, we should have just "used our words" and communicated a different arrangement. But we didn't. Maybe he slept with other people too? He was also going to college far away. Who knows? It’s water under the bridge from my perspective. I am thinking that my original fear that he would consider divorce, is just that (fear).
Also, yes I am interested in having a MFF threesome, or else I wouldn't be considering this. Just a bit nervous, but I think that is pretty normal. Honesty is very important to me at this stage in the game, which is why I wrote to Dan. Have I considered cheating, lying, and going on with my life? Yup, sure have. I have had opportunities. And I didn't do it. Honesty doesn't mean you need to share every detail of your life. It does mean that I should more explicitly share my desires with my husband, and when I feel like sexing other people, I should tell him. And I will.
I always ask myself, if I had only started reading Savage Love at an earlier age.......

Secret, you've mentioned loving your husband a few times, and how "wonderful, giving, and caring" he is, and how much you like being married to him... but you haven't mentioned how hot the sex is. Do you have great sex together? If not, don't you think you might be better off with someone else? Yes, it's embarrassing to get a divorce, but why stay married to someone whose bones you don't especially want to jump?

@63: Damn. I'm sorry for how you took this last part; I'd assumed you'd stopped reading the thread. In the first part of 60, I meant what I said--this thing LateBloomer and I are going back and forth about isn't about real-you, it's about some stuff we read on a blog because it's a slow day at work.

For what it's worth: We aren't looking at your life through a microscope--a microscope is kind of the opposite of what we have. We're looking at a picture painted by one email and a couple of blog comments, and making up hypotheses about what the rest of a picture might look like, and what the "right" thing to do in that hypothetical would be, and arguing about which principles ought to determine "right" in which circumstances. And, despite how it might look right now, nobody here hates you. (For comparison, take a look at the next letter, and see how many times "CPOS" comes up, and how many times it doesn't here.)

I get that that's not very helpful to you, but the helpful part of the advice already happened, and it sounds like you got it--be as honest as you can with him, and if he accepts the deal, do enough extra to make it worth his while; 19 and 43. From 63, it sounds like you're actually in a pretty good place--and you've got what you need. You're in a difficult situation, though, and I wish you the best with it. It's going to be tough.

I can't promise LateBloomer and I won't go back to nitpicking at each other about what does and doesn't constitute Acceptable Cheating or Necessary Disclosure, but try not to take it personally. I can promise I'll try to take into consideration the fact that you might still be reading, and moderate my tone accordingly. I can't promise that anything anyone says will be more valuable for you than #19 and #43 were, because it probably won't.

Erica, that is a totally worthy question and yet difficult to answer. When we first got together, I thought the sex was super awesome. I was also young and started dating him with a significant amount of trauma and baggage, so the fact that a guy was nice to me before, during, and after sex came as a huge surprise (sad, I know, but it's ok now!). That being said, he is attractive (even though he thinks I outscore him in this area), he takes good care of himself, and he gets me off and vice versa. I wish there was "more" with regards to the heat and passion for sex, but I don't want to sacrifice my marriage over it. I am also working on how I talk to him about sex and asking for what I need (not just in regards to potential non-monogomy, but like hey, do this, touch me here, etc). Sounds like an easy, normal, adult thing to do but I get tongue-tied. Geez, the more I talk about my life, the more I feel like it is some f*ed up story. :)
Eudaemonic-I appreciate you pointing this out. I was doing some skimming, but there were others (not you, just some internet trolls) that were trying to make me angry. They succeeded. I also saw lines about my marriage and the worthyness of it being "saved," and yeah, that felt like warranting a response. This is also the most I have shared with people in regards to the personal nature of my sex life, which is liberating yet exhausting. I appreciate argruments for agruments sake, so please continue. I just want to help provide some context because issues are never black and white, and it is in the gray that we gain perspective.

@65--Why yes, I will take up that challenge, thank you very much. There is a statute of limitations on cheating in college, IMHO, especially if it was youthful indiscretion, especially if you have changed for the better, especially if you have proved your worth in the meantime, and especially given what we now know about the circumstances under which it was committed (thank you, Secret). Should Theoretical Secret have disclosed early on? Probably. Would that have torpedoed their relationship? Quite likely. Would that have been a shame? I think so. There might have been better ways to play it, but they're not an option now, and we're looking for the most realistic solution. Sounds like they've got what most people strive for: a not-perfect, workable, tarnished, sadder-but-wiser commitment that's possibly got legs for the long haul. Also, her husband may very well be in the same boat, which is irrelevant to my point, but interesting to note.

Sorry to wreck your illusions, but that's the way most marriages work. Nocutename described it best upthread: Happily ever after is a complicated, imperfect sort of affair, full of unrecognized self-sacrifice, unfairness from the one we love most, forgiveness, etc, and it only gets worse the longer we keep at it. I don't think anyone's marriage would withstand the sort of moral standards you demand. She's allowed to stop beating herself up, and get to work on honestly amending her marriage to accommodate who she's realizing she is. For which, again, good luck.

Hey Secret, now that we've got your attention, just one more thought of a more personal nature. This might be TMI, but I'm very familiar with the sick feeling of imagining your partner with someone else, but that was a price I was willing to pay because I really, really wanted to open our marriage (different reasons than yours). Totally unexpectedly, thinking of/seeing my wife with someone else has now become the hottest thing on my sexual menu. And no, I am not a cuckold fetishist, it's more like a hotwife thing. I don't know if I'm just quirky that way, or if this is an angle you could work on with your spouse. But I understand it's pretty common, and it was definitely an unintended benefit of opening our marriage. (One of the few, I'm sad to say. We've since packed it in. But that's another story.) There has to be a ridiculous level of trust and comfort to be able to enjoy that benefit, an unshakeable belief in your wife's loyalty, if it's something that intrigues him, which is up to you to provide somehow.

And now that I reflect further: I guess what I'm saying is, that sick feeling is grounded mostly in insecurity, fear of inadequacy, fear of betrayal, and fear of loss. Lots of fear. Make of that what you will.

@63: So you confessed to the activities that did not involve cheating on him and therefore required no confession, thus leaving your husband with the impression that you had shared everything you've done that might be equivalent to his cheating?

You only consider MFF because it interests you, but you expect your husband to consider, and participate in, activities/arrangements not only that he has no interest in, but that are explicitly troubling to him?

Do you see how these things, among others you've written here, could give someone the impression that this is still all about you getting yours, and the husband and his needs are just an obstacle to be overcome one way or another?

You are being treated very gently in this thread. Your angry defensiveness suggests that you wrote the letter assuming that Dan would give the green light for you to do whatever you wanted, and all comments would be cheering you on.
Erica and Avast are giving you very good advice, and you would be well served to take it to heart, not just use it to calculate your next move.

@66 " Sounds like an easy, normal, adult thing to do but I get tongue-tied. "

We all do, all of us "adults." Really.

One thing that can help is to set aside one evening a month for "Secret's Ultimate Pleasure" -- when you are responsible for picking the sexual activity and your husband does his best to fulfill your wishes. (Of course then you have another night for "Secret's Husband's Ultimate Pleasure.")

No fair saying "Oh, whatever you want is fine, dear." Beforehand, while masturbating maybe, you have to think about what you really might enjoy. What position, what toy, what words you want to hear. Then you have to ask for those things, but you're guaranteed that he'll do his best. If it doesn't work -- if your sex life is still just adequate -- then, really, you might be better off with someone else. Maybe your bodies just don't fit right together, or maybe he doesn't smell sexy to you, or something. There's no shame in admitting that this isn't working out.

@67- I don't know if there is any such thing as "TMI" on a Savage blog thread. But I appreciate what you have to say, particularly from a male perspective. I will take this into consideration, as I do think he has some of the same fears.
@68-I think you are reading far too much into this. Again, can't change the past. Also, I asked my husband to consider (and I would expect this of him) a desire I have. I am not going to make him do anything, or expect him to do something he doesn't want to. The advice I have taken from this thread is not to "play" him, but to open my damn mouth, tell him in a more explicit way what I am wanting, and invite some threesomes into our life as a way to experiement (together) with this whole non-monogomy thing. And yes, I will honest about my intentions. If he doesn't feel comfortable with anything else, then I have a decision to make and that decision will either be 1. to stay, to commit, and to give up on this idea. 2. to leave him, to find someone that is more sexually suited for my needs.
Also, I did not even think Dan would respond. I thought if he did, he would blast me. Call me a CPOS or worse. Tell me I am totally nuts. I have read enough of his blogs to know, for sure, that he was not going to give me the green light to cheat.
@69. Love this. Thank you.

@70: Those are the best elements to take from this thread. Good luck.

Secrets. Thank you for the clarification. It completely alters my understanding and concern for the impact/effect of disclosure on your husband. That he had some knowledge and understanding of your past and then current behavior addresses my "knowingly and voluntarily entering into the relationship" comment. The theme of my prior posts was the impact of disclosure on your husband. In retrospect, given your clarification, my comments that expounded on why disclosure would be devastating to your husband were harsh. I realize that you can't change the past and do regret it. Not that it matters, but your subsequent fidelity is commendable. That said, opening your marriage will be a hard sell. Given that past, how do you prove that fidelity to your husband. The "a cat can't/won't change its spots" conundrum comes into play. Is your desire to open the marriage a recent change, a reversion to your earlier behavior, or does it demonstrate that your behavior never really changed? Obviously I do not know you or your husband, I merely state some questions I would have in his situation. They may never arise, may have to addressed now or in the future, once or on a continuing basis. It may get really old for you, but continuing confirmation of your commitment to your husband and marriage may be necessary should you open marriage. I believe this is true for any open relationship. Concern about displacement of the primary relationship is easiest avoided by avoiding external LTR and/or emotional entanglement. The latter is hard do since controlling emotions is difficult, if not impossible to do. particularly when sex/intimacy is involved. Obvious factors that come into play include how insecure is your husband now or in the future, how comfortable does he become and continues to be with an open relationship, etc. All the issues raised in this and earlier columns. Good luck, your life may be about to become a whole lot more complicated.

On a personal note. I prefer a simpler, less stressful, and low drama personal life. Something not always possible, I have a daughter. A word of caution, as you may know from your friends, the world of personal relationships has become much more complicated since you entered into your current relationship/marriage. Since you married (too?) young, you will be starting from ground zero when it comes to adult relationships should you decide to end your marriage. The grass is seldom greener on the other side of the fence when you already have a good or better relationship already. I understand the importance of sexual satisfaction, but there really is more to life and relationships than sex (for most people, there are always qualifiers). Intimacy, respect, friendship, trust, and yes, sleep will become more important than sex as you age. One thing not always considered is how long it will take to develop a relationship that will equal or exceed what you have now. You will be dealing with complete strangers (most likely) who have their own likes, dislikes, kinks, quirks, goals, desires, etc. Just finding out what they are is time consuming. You may come to miss your husband and what you had with him. Life is such a crap shoot.

I know it is hard for younger people, but you really need to take a long term perspective. Your husband is a known quantity who offers you many things. Finding some one who is all things to/for you is/will not be easy (a common thread in the postings to many DS columns). Whatever you choose you most likely will experience uncertainty and/or disappointment.

All this doesn't even consider parenthood and its complications.

@73 "Concern about displacement of the primary relationship is easiest avoided by avoiding external LTR and/or emotional entanglement."

I don't think that's really true. I think the only effective way (though I won't say it's easy) to combat concern about displacement of the primary relationship is as follows (All 4 are necessary but not sufficient steps):

1) include a possible split in the couple's financial planning (so both people know their basic needs will be met either way).

2) Then accept that if your partner feels they need to leave you, you don't want to force them to stay -- they're not trapped in the relationship.

3) And realize that not feeling trapped will help them feel they are happily choosing to stay with you (and vice versa).

4) Finally, treat your partner(s) with respect and bring your best self to the relationship. Don't take them for granted.

This is why no one should get married in their twenties. Nobody knows shit about themselves before they're 30.

He is "grossed out" by the thought of her with another man, but not with another woman? Yeah, right. More like threatened by the thought of her with another man, and turned on by the thought of two women for his own sexual pleasure. Sounds like a selfish douchebag... as is evidenced by his main objection to opening the marriage--she'd have more prospects than he would. Next time, SECRETS, pick a better-looking (or more confident) guy who won't try to keep you all to himself because he's afraid you're all he can get.

I think Dan talking about how having children, in the scenario- creates a totally different picture.. But there are no children in this story- if the man is not sexually intense enough, at 29, for you, SECRETS, imagine him after a couple of kids.
Having children, it can be a total test, you and your man, well- strong sex helps keep parents in some realm of sanity.
And maybe, as EricaP said, when her marriage opened, she and her husband had better sex..
Do not compromise your erotic life.. If you plan to have children, that's compromise enough/ but, given we love our children.. That's just how it is..
But ones erotic life, especially women's, must be lived in truth, or it starts to dry up.. So, SECRET, be true to your erotic self.. Risks involved yes, but that's just how it is when you stay in your truth/ Good Luck.

Erica P: You deftly changed the subject. My comment was directed specificially at the easiset way to avoid displacement of a primary replacment, not the most effective way to maintain "a" relationship. None of the steps you do or could list addresses the primary threat to a relationship, which is your emotions. As has been pointed out ad nauseum in numerous DS columns, people can not control their emotions. Once emotions come into play, you can do all that you suggest and everything else under the sun and it won't make a difference. Strong emotions are not logical or rational. Even parenthood won't prevent displacement of a primary relationship.

SECRETS this is not directed to you, I can't know if it is in anyway applicable or relevant to you. Portland Scribe Underlying everything is the fact that SECRETS cheated in every dating relationship she's ever had. Given human nature, the best any cheater can hope for is to be forgiven. Few, if any people are capable of forgiving and forgetting. How much of the husband's reaction to her being with another man is due to her past behavior is anyone's guess including SECRETS and her husband. Consciously or subconsciously, the husband's attitude and behavior is almost certainly influenced by that past. Her husband has to process not only his current emotions, but almost certainly emotions resurrected from the past. Forgiveness is far easier when you aren't reminded of what is being forgiven.

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