This is what happens when boiler-room, fast-food, business-school "management" culture gets pulled into religion (or anything else, for that matter).

Fuck that noise, now and forever.

It starts.

I figured it was money or sex that would bring down Mars Hill. Looks like a little of both.

At least most churches pretend that they are in the business of enlightenment, salvation, or something. His honesty about the church seeing their followers as nothing more than revenue streams and seat fillers is about as refreshing as that homeless guy who cheerfully tells passers by he is going to spend their donations on booze.

Nickels and noses. You deserve to be nothing more Mars Hill attendees.

Mars Hill attendees (like Roman Catholics) seem impervious to the obvious failures of their leadership.

@4

Not what he said, just what you believe.

Every church has to be a viable presence in the world to fulfill its spiritual reason for being. So yes, tithing and attendance matter deeply.

More than that tithing recognizes the debt to God for your well being, your daily bread. And volunteer work within the community serves both the community and the volunteer.

I don't go to Mars Hill, don't care for massive churches with espresso bars and all the frills. So for all I know they have some work to do. Easy solution for you and Constant? The one I chose. Don't go there. Then it isn't your problem.

But recognizing the secular role of the church as well as its spiritual core doesn't mean that the church sees its parishioners as revenue stream. If they did, they'd soon abandon that business model for one like Danny Boy the Savages. Sell permission (via lectures and publishing) for vice, depravity, the selfish seeking of personal gratification at the expense of integrity and family and social obligation. Savage is doing very well as a advocate of decay. Heck, he's like a pimp acting within the law and making good money to do it. Most pastors don't do nearly as well.

Your premise and your thinking are both flawed.

On the bright side, most Stranger articles are about the only thing the writers there are qualified to discuss anymore. Bars, theater and so on. Good move for the publisher to limit the displays of abysmal ignorance on politics, economics- really anything but entertainment to Constant bleating on about things he doesn't understand.

Go away seattle blues, you don't have much to say anymore, do you? Your meds are probably the only thing that keeps you going with your depressing garbage that you post. Just go away to Enumclaw or wherever you come from, you are toast here. If you want to do something good, try raising money for the people in Oso that are in need of $. You are just another piece of shit that doesn't have anything better to do than post ignorant trash to generate more posts that people can respond to that really don't like you at all.

Auntie Seattleblues once again proves her moral superiority by rushing to the defense of grifters.

Leave it to our Auntie Seattleblues to be fixated on what this guy calls the finger. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1rTG9MMW…

Really no surprise there we've all known for a long time what a female dog our Auntie Seattleblues is.

*I've no idea who the guy in the vid is or his over all theology so don't mean to endorse, he just seems to me to be in the right ballpark in that clip. At least in comparison with Auntie Seattleblues. Ok that's a low bar. Never mind.

If this is true and not just some one who has been disgruntled - because let's face it, churches have a knack for stirring pots - then it's pretty darn sad. It makes my heart sore. I don't think fueling this fire with hatred and anger will do it any good. If you're so inclined, the best possible thing is to pray, to pray that God would soften their hearts and open their eyes to the deceit. Let's have some sympathy for the innocent party here - the congregation who is being lead by whom they consider healthy, upright, Godly leaders - it isn't their fault that things have gone awry. To lump them all into one group and call them dumb isn't very nice or kind natured in any way. I understand many people have strong feelings towards churches like this and while some feelings have been validated to generalise according to one (or more experiences) by a minority of people is not fair.

Long way home I don't think your comment or attack on Seattle blues was appropriate - i'm guessing there is a deeper issue for you.

Abrahams I think has written very diplomatically and carefully but, from what I can see has also been hurt by the church. It's a classic scenario. It's not the first time and it won't be last. No one should be cross with him for his feelings on this whether incorrect or correct, he should not be judged either and just as that grace is extended to him surely the same grace should be extended to the people he believes have done him wrong?

No one can for sure say what really happened/happens behind closed doors, only the parties involved and God and knowing that I would like to believe that Mark and the exec Elders truly believe that and live their lives accordingly. Ultimately they will be held accountable for how they lead their people.

@6 As a Christian, you should well know that sitting by while others are harmed is a terrible thing to do. Saying "it's none of your business" is why women are beat up by their husbands and children are raped by their priests.

Seattleblues is the poster child for the banality of evil.

Debt to God, Seattleblues?

You have to assume that the person on the receiving end of that collection plate has anything to do with helping you cancel that debt. I'm sorry if you do, and you think that god gives a damn about that $5, $10, $20 you just took out of your pocket.

We're better off to go work a soup kitchen for an afternoon every ten days. For us and others.

Seattleblues continues his obsession with Dan Savage even on posts that have nothing to do with Dan or gay rights.