Blogs Feb 17, 2014 at 11:57 am

Comments

1
>Somebody has to do this job.

I'm sorry, this is why I just don't understand why everyone wants this to start with fast food. Fast food is not a "somebody's gotta do it" job.
2
@1 Do you propose to ban fast food or in some way eliminate it as an industry? If no, then what she says is true, somebody has to do it.
3
if you are a parent and working for minimum wage you have seriously fucked up somewhere (probably several wheres...) along the line.

don't have kids until you have the skills etc to earn a living wage.

4
Did I just read several paragraphs about the distress of someone dropping their EBT card and not having it for a half hour ?

Come tax time, I hope she gets some EITC funds.
6
Working food service is hard. I did it only for a summer and I hated it passionately. The job wore down my body; and not only was it just naturally tiring, but as someone not particularly coordinated, working in a small space filled with many hazards, it was harrowing. This isn't a minimal skills job. There are countless things to remember and many demands on your body. Doing the job efficiently and safely, with consideration to any coworkers you've got and your customers, is tough. Between accounting and food service, I say accounting is easier any day.
7
Good to see all the compassion for those with a difficult time exhibited by the commenters here.
8
@3,4
You have a lot of pride. You shouldn't, because you're just some guy. But you do, as a way of insulating yourself from empathy. Whatever. I hope something really really embarrassing and demeaning happens to you. Its happened to me, and lordy, did it help me grow in warmth as a man.
@5,
It sounds more like you are rationalizing a way to NOT think about the children. Thinking that a person sharing their troubles with you is a subtle ploy to make you feel guilty is crazy. I used to do this all the time when I was really worried about being a "good" person. Any time I did something wrong, or felt bad about my role in something I would push those feelings onto the victim and not internalize them. This is definitely the easiest way to think of yourself as a good person. Id recommend against it though, since you're only fooling yourself. This lady has troubles. Real one, human ones. Relatable ones. You not caring shows a lack of warmth and empathy on your part, not failure on her part. By your definition most of the people throughout history have been "dumb", entire generations have been "dumb". I dont think its them being dumb brother.
9
24 years old and two kids with no daddies around? Therein lies her problems. If she gets a raise will she remember to use a rubber ?
10
Worrying about financing the kids in college is not a "big thing". Having to put food back on the shelves because you can't pay for it, while being watched by people who are probably thinking like some of the commenters above, is a big thing.
11
@5 what a perfect impression of rush limbaugh
12
@7 It's not a valuable job. I don't like this conflating of people having a bad time with a problem with the wages. If the best you can do is fast food, you've done something wrong. This woman in particular isn't going to win many people over. Sorry she's hard up and apparently pretty dim in the head. It's not like she got an education and a job and then continued to be underpaid like a lot of other professions out there.
13
@7, no, I just don't automatically buy into the "two hour commute" claim in the blog post when reading the article reveals that this is some special circumstance brought about by her childcare worker/sister having her kids sleeping at the hospital at 7 AM. Just how long have these kids been living out of a hospital patient's room such that this mom has a routine to complain about ? Child Protective Services doesn't view that as dangerous ?
14
I don't consider this a life stripped of happiness but it is the necessary dues-paying one does in order to gradually earn a more comfortable and fulfilling lifestyle. Halting that mobility dead in its tracks by childbearing at a young age isn't the fault of "society" or "corporate America," it's the fault of the person who chose to have unprotected sex and then chose to eschew abortion and adoption.

People who do so already get quite a bit of taxpayer funded assistance -- WIC, EITC, SNAP, USDA-run school nutrition programs, sometimes housing subsidies and even free bus passes in our neck of the woods. Not to mention Medicaid for mom and kids — all of which amount to a reasonably decent imputed income, considering that the individual is not contributing any income taxes of her own and is unlikely to for a decade or more to come.

I would love to see an "income inequality" story that did not somehow involve unwed motherhood and teen pregnancy, quite frankly. Those two choices are at the root of much of today's poverty and downward mobility.
15
@13
And what would CPS do exactly? Take the kids from their mother and place them in foster care until such time that a person with enough money to love them comes around? How is CPS a solution to this. CPS is for abused children, not poor children.
@12
Lets do some socratic method here. Why do you think that people must have done something wrong if they are working in fast food?
16
@14
what mobility? Upward social mobility? The metric that the US totally falls flat on its face compared to other countries even remotely as developed as ours?
Also, you have a point about all the aid offered. Why don't the corporations just pay their workers more instead of asking taxpayers to subsidize everything?
17
Because you can't "just pay workers more" without corporations also raising prices on everything because the literal bottom dollar just got practically doubled. Johnny Dumbnuts running the fryer gets more money and everyone else ends up paying more. That's why everything in Australia is so expensive.
18
@12,

If she enjoys working fast food, then, no, she's probably not a very smart person. That said, unlike you, I don't feel that not very bright people deserve to suffer and struggle. Not only is it bad for them; it's bad for the rest of us in myriad ways.
19
She likes her job, she does it well, and she works full time. Good for her! No way should she be on assistance when the corporation she works for is so profitable. That is immoral and inhumane.
20
@17
so are Australians worse off than Americans because of this? Norway also pays their workers more, and things are more expensive. Yet they are not living in squalor. How odd.
Explain to me why it is better for the government to pay part of these employees wages so that the corporations dont have too. I guess I dont see how that saves the American public money, but Im open to explanations. I also dont see how market competition would fail to set the prices in this(and only this) circumstance, and how only the cost margin would determine prices. If you have business experience with this phenomenon Im interested. Or a good excel explanation. I love the numbers crunching part of life.
21
Let her eat cake, huh?
22
@17
Just a comment about the form of arguments. When you refer to the subject of your argument in a derogatory way, it makes you look arrogant and self-righteous. This makes people think less of you, and of your argument. To see a man so convinced of his own superiority over another (which is clearly false and simply a character flaw) also be firmly convinced of x,y,z, it calls into question whether or not x,y,z are equally false.
As a know it all myself, I have to remember this; how much better YOU think you are is inversely proportional to how much better OTHER people think you are. And no one will take you seriously.
23
@19,
if she didn't have any kids, I don't think she'd be eligble for food stamps.

$9.85*40*4.3 = 1694
http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/eligibility…
24
@23
I don't follow your thought process. Please lead me through it. Is it that because she wouldn't qualify for SNAP if she didn't have a family, this situation is none of McDonalds business? It seems thats what you're saying, and McDonalds would be interested to hear it, since they view it as very much their business. Hence all the hamfisted resource outreach websites and such. While I dont like their solution(pushing costs onto taxpayers), I do agree that they are in a position to tell if it is their problem or not.
25
@23 so those babies came in handy?

Now, where's their daddies?
26
@22,

Every commenter in the universe should read and follow this advice.

(myself included)
27
@26
Thanks! That's makes me feel really good about myself! Best comment ever right? Right? Right...? OH NO ITS HAPPENING AGAIN!
hahahahahaha way too much coffee today man.
28
@12- So your take on it that if you've done something wrong and ended up in a dead end, low paying job, then you should just shut up and watch your kids grow up with even less options than you have? Because that seems to be where you're heading.

@17- And how is the standard of living in Australia v. the US?
29
@24
It's none of our business what McDonads pays an employee as long as it's above the minimum wage. You can't claim "oh, she has kids mouths to feed off and can't afford a car to get to work" and pretend she didn't make some personal choices that may have impacted having kids mouths to feed, on her own (except with support from the rest of the social welfare programs), and having a skillset that seems more readily suited to employment at McDonalds instead of a more skilled profession that commands a higher wage.

Did anything in that article mention her plans to escape that situation other than just pray for a minimum wage hike ?
30
@29
I still don't follow your thought process. I might be reading you wrong, but it looks very confusing.
Point 1)"It's none of our business what McDonads pays an employee as long as it's above the minimum wage."
This is an article about raising the minimum wage. So you seem to be saying that it is not our business while providing a statement saying that in only this present instance it is actually our business...
Point 2) "You can't claim "oh," ..."that commands a higher wage."
Really this one is kind of confusing but I thought about it and tried to unpack it. It seems to say that since she must have had some choice in starting her family(unless she was raped obviously), and when making that choice she knew she was poor, that therefor she is a bad decision maker and that she made this bed and should lie in it. That's troubling to me, as it seems to be saying that only well off people should have children. But even more troubling is that it is a handy way to write off the needs of any poor family that wasnt originally middle class. In this view, a poor family, by its very existence, is a sign of bad decision-making and a of a person undeserving of help. Maybe I misunderstood you. I hope so. If not, Id say get out more and listen more.
Point 3)"Did anything"... "pray for a minimum wage hike ?"
Did it need to? Its an article about a minimum wage hike. Does she have to want to be a lawyer to be worthy of dignity? And also, telling an industry-sized number of people to just "get better jobs" is meaningless advice. Someone will always have the bad job. That doesn't mean it shouldn't have dignity and a decent wage.

32
@31
what do you mean? Soviet style communism? I think we can hit the brakes somewhere between $11/hr and community property. Hell, paying someone $11/hr would be against communism. Oh wait, was that a straw man with your name on it I just punched? I just saw someone else do that and couldn't resist. I cant remember who though...
33
@1: So you're never rushed and never need to grab food on the fly? Good for you.

Most Americans are not fortunate enough to be in that situation, so yeah, somebody really DOES have to do that job.
34
@29,

You do realize that, since this woman must necessarily be employed in Washington state since she's earning our minimum wage, that your point is basically bullshit. If she were in almost any other state she would be earning less than $8/hour. So how much is too little according to your let-them-eat-cake attitude?

@31,

Same question to you, fucknuts.
35
I became a teen mother 20 years ago. I raised two kids by myself (with the help of foodstamps) after their dad decided he didn't care. I worked my ass off so they could have some of the same opportunities as the other kids they went to school with, and it did not always work because the system is set up to ensure they/we fail. I eventually went to college and it was not easy. Thanks for reminding me that being a single mother is the most horrible thing a woman can do and that we all deserve to be punished forever.
This lady works full time on two hours of sleep per day, and yes, riding the bus from home to childcare to work can easily take 2 hours. She likes her job. She still has hope, but it won't last, she'll eventually realize there is none. No matter what she does, she will never be good enough for you assholes.
36
@6: And that's not even getting into the pieces of work who frequent those places, who feel that the folks busting their butts to get them their lunch in a reasonable time don't even deserve to be paid.
37
@12: Except that it IS a valuable job, as evidenced by the huge line you'll constantly see at any given McDonald's.
38
@29: As a taxpayer subsidizing the workers that McDonald's refuses to pay a living wage to, it is ABSOLUTELY our business.
39
@30,
You misunderstand me entirely. I have boat loads of empathy for those who have fallen on hard times. Nothing in that article indicates this woman has ever done anything to try to earn beyond a minimum wage, so of course as a single mother of two she's on the fringes of society.

But, hey, if she's in NY the minimum wage just increased there recently. Did she see her income rise when the starting wages increased 10% at the end of the year, did that help ? Did McDonalds raise their prices in NY ? Is her life 10% better? Why should we, as a country, encourage continued employment at McDonalds by providing income assistance benefits that her company won't and she's not formulating a plan to change her situation ?
40
Jesus fucking krist, the entitled pricks in this thread.

So this poor woman, this woman on the edge in so many ways (such as if a couple tiny things go wrong with her morning or her commute she is screwed royally in ways comfortable middle-class people aren't), this woman needs to now find even more free time in her life to go to night, oops day school, so she can get a degree and a better job.

Fuck all you uncompassionate libertarian dicks. Every one of you.
41
I really hope the trolls in here who don't think food service workers deserve to be paid by the companies they are working for cook your own meals, ALL your own meals, otherwise you are putting value into a service that you claim has none.
42
It's a tough spot and a tough life.

As gently as I can say it, I wish she had thought about what life would mean with children before she had them.

I'm sure she wants better for them and will work to get there. They exist and probably will have much to offer to the world. But I hope she understands that there are a lot of kids coming into schools who have these issues and it makes it a lot harder for the educational system.

It is not a crime to be poor but poor choices early on can mean more difficult outcomes.
43
@42: Why do you assume she's never bothered to think about these things before having children? Does it just fit your "she's too stupid to do better" narrative?
44
Love how ChefJoe and CHZA think that 'moral failings' or lack of smarts need economic consequences. D'ja ever notice that only comes into play on the poor end of the spectrum?

Also, for the assembled blowhards who can't read articles- the lady is a crew trainer and on management track, so can we please stop hearing about how she's dumb and needs to better herself?
45
@34, so you're saying she takes the #30 bus from Ravenna-ish (5:56AM) to the U District and then hops off at Campus Parkway, then waits around for the 48 to take her to a hospital that is within a 5 minute drive ?.. like the University Hospital ? Does that mean she's waiting for a bus to take her 4-5 blocks to the UW hospital ? The two hour commute comment Anna bolded is pretty poorly accounted for, and not regular.
http://metro.kingcounty.gov/schedules/03…

I can get the No. 30 at 5:56 a.m., then the 30 drops me at the bus stop I need to catch the 48, but the 48 doesn’t come until 6:23. If I was in a car, that’s like a five-minute drive. Then I get to the hospital and I’m tired as heck, and the room is on the seventh floor. The kids are usually asleep when I get there. I don’t want to wake them up, so I wait. They’ll wake up around 7, and then we can usually catch the 7:47 bus.
46
@39
I dont know man. I think you're just reiterating the Point 3 from before, which isn't really a strong one. You are taking absence of data to mean data showing absence, which shows a predisposition. The article didn't mention that she didnt try to get a better job or education at some time in the past because its not relevent to their story. Also, telling one person to find a better job is a meaningless response to this national situation. First of all, its tough to do. Second of all, the fast food industry is not suddenly going to disappear, so telling an individual worker to leave the system is not really a solution to the problems with the industry.
And so what if she didn't try to find a better job? Why does that mean that we shouldn't raise the wage floor? Someone is always going to be on the wage floor. I don't think that someone should have such a hard life.
47
I was going to make a sarcastic comment about the gall of these poors thinking their worthy of breeding but Jon Cracolici is handling it with such logic and compassion that my bitter heart is warmed a bit. Thanks, Jon.
48
I like the comment @35, I'm re-posting it:
I became a teen mother 20 years ago. I raised two kids by myself (with the help of foodstamps) after their dad decided he didn't care. I worked my ass off so they could have some of the same opportunities as the other kids they went to school with, and it did not always work because the system is set up to ensure they/we fail. I eventually went to college and it was not easy. Thanks for reminding me that being a single mother is the most horrible thing a woman can do and that we all deserve to be punished forever.
This lady works full time on two hours of sleep per day, and yes, riding the bus from home to childcare to work can easily take 2 hours. She likes her job. She still has hope, but it won't last, she'll eventually realize there is none. No matter what she does, she will never be good enough for you assholes.

.
.
Posted by whore on February 17, 2014 at 2:26 PM · Report this
49
@46, 48,
Shift supervisor at McDonalds must be pretty shitty if she's earning $0.50 over WA state minimum wage doing it on the night shift. The hard truth of it is that minimum wage is the wage floor for unskilled labor. It should not be expected to provide for a family, which is why we have assistance programs.

Yes, life is tough when you're trying to raise kids near the minimum wage... you can either do something with your individual situation (which the article doesn't get into) or seek to raise the minimum wage and hope that suddenly raises your situation. One of those choices is going to be a lot easier.
50
Even if you think this gal fucked up at the game of life, why are you ok with someone being paid so little for full time work that they need government benefits to survive? Are you happy subsidizing a for profit enterprise without benefiting from their success?

Even the biggest hardass should be upset at this.
51
@49
You're totally right that it is easier to try to get a better job than it is to raise the minimum wage. And that would certainly benefit whichever individual pulled it off. I think that we are talking about solutions to different problems. This lady has many problems because she is poor. And you are saying, "well, I think the quickest road out of poverty is x". Which is great! But afterwords... there are still tons and tons of other people in her shoes, and they cant all take the same road. So while for the individual, road x might be the way to go, that doesn't mean that as a country we shouldn't pursue solution y to help everyone still in that situation. Applying personal solutions to national problems often doesn't work. I try not to hang out with sick people to avoid getting sick. That's not really a way to keep the country healthy.
52
"telling an industry-sized number of people to just "get better jobs" is meaningless advice. Someone will always have the bad job. That doesn't mean it shouldn't have dignity and a decent wage. "

Do you expect employers to pay your coworker with two kids more than you simply because they have two kids ? A salary for a job is that job's wage and worth to the company. Any salary is not necessarily a family wage. Hence why our government raises the income requirement by 70% when going from no-kids poor to household of 3 poor. If you want an example for raising the minimum wage, maybe examine a single person household and don't ignore the competition from these workers who travel to where the wages are....
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/16/us/cro…
Carly Lynch dreams of a life one day on the professional rodeo circuit, but for now she commutes 20 miles from Idaho to this small city in eastern Oregon to work as a waitress. There are restaurant jobs closer to home, but she is willing to drive the extra miles for a simple reason: Oregon’s minimum wage is $1.85 higher per hour than Idaho’s.

“It’s a big difference in pay,” said Ms. Lynch, 20, who moved last summer from her parents’ home in Boise, 30 miles farther east, to make her Oregon commute more bearable. “I can actually put some in the bank.”

http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/eligibility…
53
The problem is that she is underpricing her labor, but she can't negotiate for a better wage. The fast food companies resist unionization attempts and in general unions in this country are powerless. Since the fast food companies are going to pay the minimum wage legally allowed that wage needs to be increased to a living wage.
54
Ah, the good old moral hazard argument: if we don't make being qualified for nothing more than low-skill jobs a miserable, harrowing experience, no one will want to do better.

There are two problems with this argument in the context of the current minimum wage debate. First, the minimum wage increases proposed don't really take minimum-wage jobs out of the "miserable, harrowing subsistence" category they currently inhabit. In most cases, they would shift the source of the funds, but not their buying power. People making minimum wage would *maybe* increase the overall funds available to them a *little,* but, mostly, they'd get a smaller or no section 8 voucher for housing, or less or no SNAP benefits. They'd be paying for housing or food out of their own budget, rather than government benefits, and end up about the same in the wash. Just, you know, maybe enjoying a little more flexibility in where they live (not all landlords take section 8, but they do take, you know, money) and the allocation of their budget.

Second, and obviously, I just don't buy it. When factories were booming and wages for low-skill labor were robust (my grandfather raised a solidly-middle class family with an 8th grade education), people still pushed their kids to do better than them. There were still doctors and lawyers and accountants and small business owners and etc. In my grandparents' generation, it was relatively common for kids not to finish high school (or even start it, in some areas...neither of my grandmothers ever attended high school, either, though my other grandfather did have a college education). By my mom's generation, it was rather uncommon. Even though factory work paid well, it was difficult, dangerous, and required long hours to put a family onto solid middle-class footing. Parents saw this and wanted better for their kids. Kids saw this and wanted better for themselves. All of them? Of course not. You can't motivate everyone. And even if we did motivate everyone to get an education, who is going to work the low-skill jobs, then? Right, someone with an education, and probably the debt to show for it. Because the floors still need mopped and the food still needs cooked and, every once in a while, a room in my house still needs painted. But to think that busboys wouldn't rather be the ones DINING in their restaurant than working there, or grocery store cashiers wouldn't rather be the one in line with a cart full or organic or high-end groceries than just being able to put enough, basic food on their table, because we actually pay enough to low-skill workers that they can SCRAPE BY is, IMHO a mental defect. If you think this, you have a seriously low opinion of other people, and, I fear, it may reflect on your own level of motivation to achieve. Just because YOU'D be happy doing a repetitive, laborious, unfulfilling, menial job BECAUSE IT PAID JUST ENOUGH TO GET BY and required no extra effort on your part doesn't mean everyone is. Because, honestly, I like being challenged every day, and I enjoyed my education, and, well, I'm not going to get 3 weeks of vacation along with enough money to really enjoy that working a minimum-wage job...even if it paid $10 or $15/hour.
55
@52 FWIW, yes, as a single male I've come to expect all my coworkers who have kids to get better benefits than I do. Companies regularly pay extra benefits based on family size and the tax code also benefits larger families. In a job with no benefits per se paying extra money to those who are supporting families hardly seems like an affront.
56
@43, I would assume after she had her first child at 19, she probably knew how hard life was with one. I don't think she's stupid.
57
I gave my granddaughter 'Ten Stupid things women do to mess up their lives' for Christmas and I dearly hope she reads it or she'll end up in a similar situation.
58
@52
Well that's not what I said, but what you said sounds very patriotic and pro-family so Id be down with that.
I think that everyone deserves dignity and a decent wage. I don't think fast food workers get either. I'm going to work to change that.
I can see a situation where a single mom of two gets paid a decent wage and still needs gov assistance. That is a particularly hard situation. But right now everyone in fast food needs SNAP, and that's just crazy.
59
I really enjoy the people who insist college is the answer. I have a bachelor's degree (I speak two languages fluently as a result) from a very respected institution, and I work in retail. The people I work with in retail, regardless of their level of education, are smart, analytical, hard-working, solutions-driven, and ambitious. Do we all deserve an unlivable wage? (Really, does anyone *deserve* a wage that cannot support them?) On the other hand, most of the people I went to high school with (and we had a college entry rate of about 80%), are not using their degree. The market is saturated with degrees, most of which mean nothing. The people with the good-paying jobs all have connections. So it's not really a matter of life choices. It's a matter of what social circles you were born into. And really, let's get back to the heart of this matter: this woman is working full-time and on food stamps. Our taxes are supporting someone who has a full-time job. Shouldn't it be McDonald's job to make sure she has enough money to buy food?
60
right now everyone in fast food needs SNAP, and that's just crazy.

No, maybe some do, but not all. Live with roommates, minimize transportation costs, and have no kids and $20k/yr is doable. Sounds like grad school actually.
61
@60
Look, tell that to McDonalds. They have been distributing literature on how to sign up for them to their employees. Sounds like they think their employees qualify.
21k ($10*40hr*52wk) gross a year is livable only under a very certain set of circumstances, and even in those circumstances even a small misfortune can put you out of doors. I don't a wage floor is effective if it is almost universally unlivable.
Personal questions coming up.... What did you go to grad school for? Are you a chef? Have you ever been really hungry and hopeless?
62
@61, why does it need to be personal ? Have you ever worked for minimum wage ? Have you worked for minimum wage and chosen to have children ? Did your employer increase your hourly pay when you had kids ?

http://www.orderofeducation.com/gradpay-…
Although the survey has only been available since early in the year, the results have already started to shed light on graduate working conditions. Out of a total of 1,670 doctoral student respondents, the median annual stipend was $21,000.
63
Geez, if she likes her job, takes pride in it, and is good at it, how does anyone else maintain that she is inferior for doing her work? The timehas clearly long gone when only teenagers flip burgers, deliver newspapers, empty bedpans,etc. The fact that our country spends more on drones than on childcare says a lot!
64
@62
Im not making it personal in a bad way, Im just trying to get a feel for your experience, because I really dont get where you are coming from. And I have gotten the impression that you dont have any experiences similar to this womans, or of people in similar situations.
To answer your questions; I have worked for minimum wage. A lot. I do not have kids, but I know someone in the situation you asked about. Our boss did raise his pay. He was a hard worker, and family is important. I am 27, and am in the process of applying to universities to finish a degree in engineering. I dropped out of school at 16, got into trouble, straightened out and started working. A lot. Lots of work. 60+ hours a week. I went back to school 10 years after I left, because I have a fiancee, and want to have kids, but don't want to have to work 70+hrs a week like my buddy. I'm pulling it off. Not everyone can. Its exhausting, its draining, and its stressful to have to succeed at all parts of your life all the time(work,internship,school,love,etc). I pray a lot to find the energy. Doing it with a kid to love and take care of? Holy hell, I have no idea where someone would get the time or energy. Sometimes I want to fall asleep on the side of the road as it is.
Grad school. Man. I wish I got paid 21k to go to grad school. Maybe that will be me someday.
65
@ChefJoe - since no one else is saying it, I will - go swallow a billiard ball. You contribute nothing, you have no sense, no empathy, and no judgment. You are not community minded, your opinions, those of a clearly over-privileged white guy with nothing but contempt for those who have less than you, indicate you are not fit to live in society. As it is, you're just another one of hundreds of thousands who make life worse, through your arrogance, ignorance, and voting record, for untold millions. As it stands, I'm comfortable stating you have garbage opinions and a very, very contemptible mind.

God's mercy on you, swine, and I hope for your sake you will never have to work 1/1000th as this woman does every day of her life.
66
@35: I want to send you a hug. It's not worth anything but some warm fuzzies, but not all of us hate you or think that you're awful. Some of us have compassion, and want to see people have options and opportunities. We know that we can't know what happened, why people have kids and then end up single, but we know that hindsight is a lot clearer than foresight, and wish you only a better future.

@57: I don't think you've ever said anything more horrific on Slog than this.
67
@65 Quite over the top. Where did race enter into this ? I thought it odd they profiled someone of color, considering most who find themselves in this situation are not, despite society's prejudice on that.
68
Okay, this woman has kids and a low paying job and she made mistakes...but WHO THE HELL HASN'T MADE MISTAKES?!
My issue isn't that she's poor or on public assistance. Hell, I give her props for working and not just mooching. My issue is this: is she doing actively doing anything to better her life? Is she going to school or at least taking online classes? Is she applying for grants and scholarships, public and private?

I can sympathize with someone struggling to get by with kids...someone who isn't at least planning on a life beyond minimum wage I have trouble sympathizing with.

I had a neighbor in the same position: three kids and the "father" left. What did she do? Studied and worked and got a dental hygienist job. She paid for it with grants, loans, and help from people in the community. I personally brought her an Ipad and showed her how to pirate textbooks online (they are WAY too expensive)

That's the difference between a REAL libertarian and a conservative/Tea bagger: we want to help those who are struggling, we just think WE the community can do a better job of it than the corporate-owned state. Conservatives/Tea baggers on the hand just seem to hate the poor for being poor.

Or, if this woman isn't studying, she should at least be trying to get a promotion to shift lead and maybe management.

And if she needs more money the political options are obvious: charge the business that pays people so little for full time work that they need welfare a tax penalty and use it to finance a negative income tax as opposed to food stamps. Give her the money and trust her to decide how to spend it.

That, and give her a card while she's making that little money that lets her get a waiver on sales taxes. That could save her a few thousand a year.
70
@69
Im sleepy, and I hope you have that excuse too, cause WTF.
71
@68- Go and read the fucking article you fuckwit. She is a shift leader and she's on the management track. It still pays fuck-all.
72
@68, your point isn't as harsh as it comes across as. If you want more people to take you seriously, use your words better.

I'm a HUGE fan of giving people a hand up rather than a handout. But those who spout this line usually don't mean it. You have to explain that you MEAN it. You don't want people to wallow - you promote a negative income tax, funded by corporate scum (not all corporations are scum, but those who are should pay) and sales tax exemptions. Not bad. Those would actually be helpful to lower-income people, and are currently in the forms we have them (EITC, exemptions from sales tax for things like unprepared food and (in some states) basic clothing, etc.). You also seem to support robust funding for functional education. Also good to move people up the ladder. I'd also add to that list free child care for people who *do* want to better themselves (often a challenge for single parents who would gladly go to school, but can't afford the extra hours of daycare) and income support for necessary educational activities (for example, clinicals in nursing school that require the candidate to work a basically full-time job for free or low-pay or unpaid apprenticeships in other fields).

But do think about your example. I'm friends with the former dental hygienist at my dentist's office. How they understand you with their hands in your mouth, I'll never figure out, but we got to talking and it turned out she lived half a block from me. We exchanged numbers and, while hanging out subsequently, I found out she spent a decent chunk of money on that certification, and only made $15/hour. $15/hour, full time, will barely provide for an adult here (she lived in a so-so apartment with a roommate, both single, no kids), let alone a family. She ended up quitting that job and pursuing her nursing degree because there was no opportunity for advancement and she'd never be out of near-poverty unless she did something else. Why are dental hygienists paid so little? Well, I'd wager that "twice the minimum wage" *sounds* pretty robust, but in reality, is not, simply because our minimum wage is set far too low. Perhaps minimum wage shouldn't support a family comfortably, but it does set a price floor that other wages are based off. Hence, this management-track employee being paid only a dollar or two and hour more because "compared to the minimum wage we pay others, it's pretty good!"
73
Last year I was visiting Albany NY for a convention. As I left my hotel for the Sunday sessions, I saw the housemaid, a middle-aged lady, cleaning out the room opposite, and realised it might not be her shift when I checked out the next day, so I should tip her then. (We don't tip in Australia and I live in constant fear of undertipping.). It was my third day there so I gave her $20.

I'm not particularly rich, but $20 doesn't seem like a very large sum of money to me. But the housemaid was so grateful I felt embarrassed. She said "You don't know what this means to me", and when I came back she had left a note in my room telling me I was wonderful. I left another tip for her at reception when I checked out, but it sort of haunts me that anyone should be so grateful for a pathetic $20.

My parents didn't have much money, but I had a publicly funded University education (that I repaid from an additional tax hike once I reached a certain income level), and we have national health care, and now I have a job that means I can travel to America and tip the housemaid $20 without pain. I feel ashamed that someone should be in a position where $20 means so much to them, and it occurs to me that had I been born in America, that could easily have been me.
74
@5 " This young single mother better get her over fertile self to day school, finish her GED, get to college and STOP MAKINB BABIES! "

You're quite right. She should ask for a government grant to provide money and housing for her and her kids for a few years, so that she can stop doing her low-earning job and have leisure to study for a better earning one. In the meanwhile, your tax dollars will feed and clothe and house those three decent Americans.

But she doesn't seem to be into studying. She likes her job. She'd just like to have living wages. And she could, if only her employers, who benefit and enrich themselves through her work, were not too greedy and left her a somewhat bigger part of the money she's making them earn by working for them.

So it's that choice : either some of the 1% will have to accumulate wealth at a less steep rate, or your own tax dollars will have to provide for her and her children. Which one do you choose ?

Oh, and I agree with you that she should get her ass to Planned Parenthood as well, an institution which you so obviously strongly support, and the only one able to help her to "stop making babies". I hope you don't vote Repub, they hate Planned Parenthood, they think that poor women should have heaps of children.
75
Some of the people in this thread.. I really can't wrap my head around that way of thinking. You live in a society where the media tells girls and women that their only worth is in whatever sexual appreciation they can get from the opposite sex, where the politicians constantly find new ways to limit the access to contraceptives, abortion and sex education and increase the stigma attached to those things and then when young women end up becoming young mothers, which severely limits their options and ability to move up on the socioeconomic ladder, it's their own fault. Really?
76
So all the politicians can change their minds and help by:
Giving her free birth control and abortions
Providing her with the means to get training for a higher paying job
Raise the minimum wage but somehow not raise taxes to offset the cost
Provide her with free child care, transport and food WITHOUT trapping her into coming out for the worse should she find a way to get ahead, as in taking away $200 in food stamps because she makes $150 more a month.
Which political group is against every single one of these ideas? Now remember this when you vote.
77

I resent this 'single mom' shit so much. My mother was widowed at 42, with 3 young kids, myself being the youngest - I was 4 when my dad died suddenly. THAT is a 'single mom'. The term is thrown around so much in reference to young girls these days who find themselves pregnant, never married the father nor intended to, and then woke up all surprised and stunned when making babies at 19 and 21 lands them in poverty.

This girl is 24 fucking years old, and has a 5 and 3 yr old kid. She got pregnant at 19, and didn't have an abortion - for whatever reason - perhaps she was against it, perhaps no abortion clinics in her area, perhaps didn't have the money, or had dreamy idiot teenage girl ideas of being a mom. Either way, she decided to go ahead and become a teenage mother. Two little years later at the ripe ol' age of 21, she does it again. Statistically speaking, almost no 19 yr old gets pregnant intentionally, right? Mistakes happen, of course. But a second time? And still no abortion or maybe adopting the kid out, even though she now knows the reality of that situation? Knowing what the minimum wage is in this country - and $9.85 is fucking high compare to my state where it's only $7.50 - did she genuinely expect that having two kids by age 21 was the route to anything other than abject, just about guaranteed poverty? Bad for you, bad for the kids, bad for society.

Interesting as fuck that in her article discussing her situation, she makes no mention of the father of her two kids. No mention at all, as if the kids magically dropped into the picture from outer space. Why does no one ever ask these questions when the subject of 'single moms' comes up: WHY is the father not helping to pay for the many bills she cites that she has? Rent, etc.,? Why instead are taxpayers having to fund her food, heating assistance, etc., because a young girl made fantastically bad life choices?

78

I know a girl - a neighbor of mine, and a close friend of my niece - who got pregnant at 20 way, way unintentionally, but bought into the idea that abortion was wrong, and so had the kid. Never had any intention of marrying the father, even though he was hugely involved in the kids life and loved and loves the kid to pieces. Both he, and she, had and have full time jobs, btw, and not at McDonalds - she is the manager of a kids photography studio, and he does landscaping and truck driving. Okay, this shit is none of my business, right?

But, it becomes my and your business when ... simply because these two people didn't marry - for that sole reason - among the benefits this 'single mom' receives is $1250.00 in taxpayer funds each winter for heating oil assistance.

Again, the father of her child is alive, young, able bodied, gainfully employed, involved in the kid's life on a near daily basis, and lives in the same town as the mother. And yet amazingly, he pays nothing towards daycare or rent or heating oil, and feels no qualms about it. Why? Because the mother of his kid is 'single', and we have set up a system whereby public assistance is allowed to, and even expected to (apparently), stand in the place of a young, fit, able bodied, fully employed dad.

Meanwhile myself, I opted not to have kids, and struggle terribly all winter, year in a year out, to try not to freeze to death - I literally have it set to 57 degrees all the time, and survive on space heaters - and guess what? I am given zero financial assistance from taxpayers in my months-long attempts not to freeze to death. I struggle at times to buy groceries especially when I was laid off from my job two years ago and went on unemployment which in my state is pitiful, yet I didn't and don't qualify for an EBT card. I'm human. I need to eat and not freeze to death, right? Why am I worth less in this country's eyes than my neighbor, just because I didn't procreate outside of wedlock? And why should I or you or anyone be asked to stand in for the father of this kid, financially? This system guarantees one thing: that the parents will never marry, and therefore get the fuck off the public dole.

And this is a lifelong liberal dem talking.

79

For the record, I worked at Burger King full time on two separate occasions when I was younger, and at other places, for rock bottom minimum fucking wage - struggling like crazy - back then it took 3 checks to pay my rent - and got no public assistance from anyone for rent or food or heat. I am all for an increase in the minimum wage to $15 an hour, everywhere, if that is at all feasible and won't result in there being a vast, widespread reduction in the existence of small indie businesses. Hopefully it can be done quick enough to lift people out of poverty, but not so quick that the only thing left on Main Street is fucking Walmart.

80
@77-79
Sounds like youve had it rough. A lot of us have. I don't know why you choose to look down at other people who also have it hard. This woman has a family, a job, is an upright citizen like yourself. She's also poor. You aren't better than her, at least to my eyes. You keep saying that she has made "fantastically bad" decisions, yet you have never met this woman and know almost nothing about her.
I think you might be mistaken about how our social service system is set up. In your example, your neighbor receives government assistance because she is unmarried. Unmarried fathers most certainly have a legal responsibility to support their children, and if the government is giving aid under the impression that he has no money, then they may one day be in a lot of trouble.
81
@73, good on you. You did over-tip by US standards for hotel maids (the general rule is $2-5/day, depending on if you get any extra services or leave a big mess), but if $20 a couple times a year won't break you, it's an awfully nice thing to do. I tend to tip $3/day and try to be the easiest customer they'll have (put all my clothes - clean, dirty, or otherwise - at least in the closet or a drawer or a suitcase, leave the "don't change my sheets" card, make sure all the trash ends up in a trash can, keep my stuff in a neat little cluster on the bathroom counter so they don't have to pick up after me, etc.). But I'd much rather pay $10 or so more/day and have that go to the housekeeper for the time they spend in my room (probably a half hour or less).

That reminds me of when we went to hire a housekeeper. Our place is pretty small and we only wanted once-a-week service, so we put out a classified for a maid, 3 hours/week, $18/hour all supplies provided, as that seemed pretty reasonable to us (a fraction of our combined hourly wages, but enough to make the job enticing and be fair for the physical difficulty of the work). Our email was pinging so fast we could barely keep up. Even in high-wage DC, apparently our offer was pretty robust...apparently most people pay $12-ish/hour if they provide the cleaning supplies and about $15 if they expect the maid to show up with cleansers and vacuums in tow. We adore our housekeeper, and she works her hind off both at our house and her other clients'. We both tip her at major holidays and send her a message not to pack her lunch once a month or so and leave a lunch for her, and you'd think she won the lottery. I mean, come on...she's literally excited over LEFTOVERS (good leftovers, the same as we're having for lunch that day, but STILL). And, yes, she's 100% legal and has the proper licenses to be considered a company for hire rather than independent household help. As bad a rap as DC gets as high-tax, very small, personal businesses can be properly licensed for very little (round abouts $100/year) and there's basically a flat corporate tax of $250/year if you are a personal service business (like housekeeping).
82

@80:

I believe you have missed my point entirely. No, I'm not better than her - never said that - yet society provides her with a stipend - solely due to making the extraordinarily poor choice of having 2 kids out of wedlock by age 21 - that it does not provide me with, even though we both struggle mightily to pay our bills.

And no, I've never met this woman and neither have you. As far as knowing nothing about her - I am going on what she has chosen to tell the world in her article. Same as you.

Again, does anyone think that the path to NOT being poor is to have 2 kids out of wedlock by the time you're 21? It couldn't be more well known that this is a guaranteed route to poverty that is bad for the mother, bad for the kid, and bad for society overall.

I'm actually not mistaken about how our social service system is set up. The information I provided about my neighbor is entirely factual. The father of her child is alive, healthy, young, able bodied, employed full time and lives in the same town as the mother, and yet he can get away with paying nothing towards the mother's food or oil heating costs because of the fact that she gets EBT money and nearly free heating oil assistance from taxpayers such as myself, even though she and he both work full time. Why? Why does she get an awesome $1250 heating oil stipend every year while everyone else around her and on the same street where she lives struggles like I do to not freeze to death with no help from the government or anyone else?

Answer: Because of the way we have set up the dole in this country. It guarantees the parents of a kid born out of wedlock will never marry, because the second they do, the free heating assistance and EBT stops.


83

I loathe that I sound like a republican when I say these things, but to me this isn't about ideology. It's about what makes sense and is fair and what is not fair and in fact, fucking crazy nuts. To over and over incentivize people to not take responsibility for their mistakes - and yes, having a kid at age 19 when you're earning minimum wage - when you are at that low skill level - when you are a teenaged idiot and not mature enough yourself to know your ass from your elbow - and so what do you do? Go and have a kid??

Again, I understand that mistakes happen. But knowing what the life of a teenage mother constitutes and the poverty and struggle that you put yourself and often your parents, or in her case, siblings through because of your mistake ... and you go at age 21 and do it AGAIN?! While you still only have the skills to work at McDonalds? No one can tell me this is a good move, a healthy move, a smart move. Again, why did the girl not mention the father at all in the article? Why isn't HE helping to pay her fucking rent, food, etc? Why should I be paying this? It's not my fucking responsibility. Yet it apparently IS deemed my responsibility and not the father's, and therefore I would like some of my tax dollars to go to assisting me with my heat and food and rent. I see no reason on earth why I should not be entitled to that just because I didn't make the classic baby-out-of-wedlock move.

84
Velvetbabe, you are an idiot. Heating assistance is calculated by your income. If you are so poor that you are freezing to death, apply for heating assistance. It's not specifically for single mothers. It's for people who are low-income. Also, if dad is around, he is probably paying child support and child support orders generally specify that he non-custodial parent has to help pay for childcare costs. I doubt this single mother you supposedly know gets much in foodstamps (which is why she has an EBT card), since she is working full time and child support counts as part of her income. The mother in the article doesn't mention the father of her kids, but there has to be one. Yes, he should be held accountable. He should be helping. But if he's not, there's not a whole lot she can do to make him. She still has to take care of the kids, and feed them. She is doing everything she can at this point.
85
@velvetbabe
I actually quite sure that you misunderstand how our "dole" works. You should apply for some of the help. It seems that you feel upset because you see this woman getting more than you because she has a family, which you characterize as "making bad decisions". Apply for help. And however you feel about how that woman got her family, she has a family, and therefore may have more need than you. Even if you think she is dumb.
86

Sorry, no, Jon. There is no misunderstanding here. Surely even us liberals can speak out about this issue, even if it makes us uncomfortable? This is about what society views as fair and moral, and whom society values enough to help financially, and who it does not. What it has clearly decided to do is regularly hand out money to the frighteningly high percentage of girls who have made the biggest, most far reaching AND most well known mistake one can possibly make - having babies as a teen, when one is at the skill level - and the pay grade - of a fast food worker. Read that sentence again. Having kids - two of them by age 21 - when you are in the minimum wage income bracket. Society has chosen to do so even when the father of these kids is able bodied and just as capable of working as the woman in the article. (Again, why was there no mention of the father in her writeup? Do you seriously think his existence is irrelevant when it comes to her complaints, ie her inability to pay her and her kids' bills and transport costs?) The father has just been excused from any incentive to be financially responsible for his own kids. This is a good idea, you think?

As far as her having a family and maybe needing more help than me, I find this an astonishing admission on your part, that my life is worth less than hers, because I didn't make her mistakes. It seems to me that as a human being I am equally in need of eating and paying my bills as she is. I would rather not starve, or freeze to death, nor would any of the elderly folks who live on my street who get by on low fixed incomes ie paltry social security - something they have paid into all of their lives. They are truly unable to work at their ages, and in fact if they did, their checks would be docked, and yet they get no extra weekly paycheck because of their 'need'.

As far as applying for the dole myself, I wouldn't qualify as I quote unquote make too much money.

87
This may be slightly off topic but too bad , it needs to be addressed because someone mentioned the fact that the father is not contributing as if it was the mother's fault that he is not and in a society where women have fought so hard for freedom from oppression, I find it appalling that someone, another woman no less, would suggest this. It also astonishes me that this woman identifies herself as a liberal when it sounds to me like she is spewing uneducated conservative vomit. Why judge a hard working single mother, who is struggling to survive as if she is solely responsible for her plight? Why not put the blame for the father of these children being a deadbeat where it belongs- on the father! It is HIS fault that he does not support his children- NOT hers and NOT theirs! I've got news for you, velvetbabe-nobody PLANS to be single mother and douchebags unfortunately are not required to wear a sign identifying themselves as such so getting involved with one is still a possibility. They do exist and they happen to the best of us. As a survivor of domestic violence and a single mother I can attest to this. I know I do not speak for all single mother's but I do speak for a good number of us and there is a lot less shame in being a single mother, even if it means having to be on assistance for a little while than there is in staying in a relationship with somebody who hurts you and your children and who degrades and humiliates you and who teaches your child that this is normal. It is less shameful than continuing to support a man who refuses to work and who continues to use and abuse us. Whatever this young woman's circumstances may be, I'm sure she thought that it would turn out differently than it actually did. Stop blAming single mother's and start blaming deadbeat fathers and abusive men. To blame the woman for everything is to perpetuate archaic and chauvinistic ideas of male privilege that create these situations that offend you so badly

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