Comments

1
Countdown to nerd-rage regarding inaccurate characterization of Hulk's motives.
2
I'm sure you've already seen this, but

http://youtu.be/V4UWxlVvT1A
3
Do we know for sure that with Collins it because he was gay, he was already old and over the hill it seemed, for a basketball player.

If Sam goes undrafted it is stronger evidence for that.
4
If women were truly equal, and equally treated, there would be no homophobia. Having "feminine" attributes would not be threatening to the dominant culture. But every time a woman or a gay man demands to be treated as an equal, men at the top of the power structure fear losing their dominant place. Grr.
5
I have often found it amusing when straight men justify their homophobia by saying they are fine with gay guys, they just don't want to be hit on, like that crosses some magical line in the sand (and this is invariably the kind of guy that thinks it is totally acceptable to be aggressive and persistant, even when the attention is clearly unwanted, when hitting on a woman). Which is also sort of "being made into a woman." I.e., being the subject of the type of attention they are used to giving out. But this is sort of a whole other level. Pretty interesting.
6
>a whole world of men who have never felt—and in their ignorance, are both terrified and terrifying—the firsthand, implicit threat of sexual violation

Terrified in their ignorance? How? In this case it's a state of complete safety.

And terrifying? ing? What? I've never experienced nor will I likely ever experience a threat of sexual violation and I don't understand how that aspect as a part or whole of myself is "terrifying."

What the fuck are you talking about?
7
"Furthermore, and maybe this sounds too radical, but the day is coming when anybody who watches the NFL and NBA and NHL and hates homophobia is going to have to start demanding that players like Collins and Sam aren't discriminated against athletically for who they are."

Jen, I am sorry if I am improperly painting you with The Stranger staff's "we don't know sportsball" brush, but the "average fan" of sports yak fame, tends to be a poor evaluator of talent, when compared to nascent (in the case of the NFL) advanced stats or compared to professional analysis, already.

While I am very much for openly gay players, and hope to see Michael Sam drafted high and play well, I do not know that a bunch of ill-informed advocacy supposedly based on his abilities will necessarily help anything.

On the other hand, I suppose just providing counter point to the bigots may be of some value.
9
Mother Vel-DuRay graduated from high school in 1943 and immediately went to work in a radio plant that had been turned over to defense work. She worked the evening shift, and the female employees had to endure all sorts of harassment - they wouldn't give them a locker room, they wouldn't run a streetcar that late, and women were not allowed to use the break room.

But as more men were called up and production was increased, those barriers all fell. Funny how such "niceties" fall by the wayside when there's a profit motive.

Of course, they were all laid off shortly after VJ Day. So she went to work for the telephone company - a place where women had a little more respect, relatively speaking.
10
Jen, the image of macho straight guys you are painting here is a bit cartoonish (sorry for the pun). It's interesting stuff, but honestly, I'm not seeing a lot of insight into the macho male mind.

I'm a machoish man who loves the gays, played football (and hates the sport as a result, Seahawk's recent performances notwithstanding), and I don't think there is any inherent link between being macho and fearing gay men. We've been taught (usually with the threat of violence) that being a tough guy means being homophobic. That association can be unlearned in the NFL and elsewhere, just as is happening in the military.

Will this cause tough guys to identify with the vulnerability of sexual assault felt by women? I doubt it. But tough guys have plenty of vulnerabilities of their own to worry about (murder and assault victims skew heavily male, for example). In fact, you could make a strong case that being a tough guy is nothing more than a reaction to intense feelings of vulnerability.
11
@3-I thought the same thing about Collins. It's unfortunate that he hasn't played in the NBA from a historical milestone standpoint, but given the fact that he's way past his prime and is a serviceable big man at best, it's fair to say he probably wouldn't be on a team even if he stayed in the closet. His straight twin brother was just as talented and isn't in the league anymore either.

Michael Sam on the other hand is a totally different story because unless he suffers a horrible injury or something in the next 2 months he will get drafted by somebody. He's too talented to not be on an NFL roster next year. Even in his prime, Collins was just an ok player, good for a few rebounds, a couple fouls and a steady locker room presence. If Sam isn't on a roster next year, it's because NFL GM's have a problem with his sexual preference.
12
@6
In short, Jen wants everyone to be plagued with it-came-out-of-nowhere-except-the-everyday-experience-of-being rape nightmares.

This is how the Left works, it sees inequality (she’s afraid of being raped and he’s not) as being best solved by lowering everyone to the same state of misery (everyone should be afraid of being raped).
13
@2: I figured because it was youtube it'd be ok, but a NSFW warning would be appreciated in the future (I agree, social norms as exist are dumb).
14
Do you really think that men who don't want to be the target of male sexual attention are going to react by suddenly feeling empathy for women who don't want to be the target of male sexual attention? Hell, no! They're going to react by repudiating any vulnerability and asserting their he-man manliness, and we all know what sorts of behaviours that entails.
15
Hulk think faggot make best bigot.
16
@10 Is closest to my thoughts here. In part, women have segregated showers and facilities because they do not like to be leared at, and made to feel so vulnerable by, men.. especially strong, aggressive, athletic men. Even if the men are safe, the feeling is unpleasant.

Why wouldn't a man have similar discomfort if they should feel that they are sexually desired in the locker room?
17
Who were the Night Witches? In 40 years of reading about the history of warfare I've never once come across this reference. Citations?
18
I think the difference between the Heli-Carrier and Manhattan Hulk rampages is that in the latter he chose to fuck shit up. That's the best I can come up with. Avenger Hulk has always been a bit convenient in his anger.
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@17 - The Wikipedia entry seems to have a fairly extensive bibliography. I haven't chased any of those sources down, but it's probably worth a look.
20
At the heart of every bully is a vulnerable coward desperately trying to hide his true self for fear of discovery.

At the core of every bully is a child who learned that one of their parents was weaker and more fearful than their dominant parent, regardless of the gender of the parent. The bully identifies with the weaker parent, but emulates the behaviors of the dominant parent out of a paranoid fear of being discovered as weak and fearful and being made lesser or becoming a victim.

Like a calloused scar, what was once only a facade becomes the dominate identity as the bully repeats these behaviors to conceal their weakness. As society rewards their dominant behavior the once false identity becomes the abiding truth of them.

The vulnerable child remains entombed by the dominant personality until the bully fails, his inherent weakness at last exposed.

Now, add and contrast this compounded reality...

Children whose parents are of a lower class in the society who suffer oppression by the dominant class in the society either accept their fate, struggle against it or become a type of aggressor unique to the weaker class, namely "criminal." Again, the child identifies with the adults they perceive as weaker, but chooses to emulate the behaviors of the dominating adults. If the child remains identified or identifiable to any degree with the weaker class by the dominant class, however, his aggressive actions and behaviors instead of earning him the titles of hero, president and chief will yield instead the condemnation of being branded a gangster, hustler and thief. His consolation prize is they fear him, but as he is not a member of their class they isolate, condemn and imprison him.

How do you rid a society of aggressive bullies when it is so undecided on whether to reject or reward them?
21
@16 -- The problem isn't that men really feel they're sexually desired in the locker room, it's that they assume that any gay man is incapable of controlling his lust for their bodies if they're naked in the same space. There doesn't seem to be a way to get it into the straight phobes' heads that we aren't interested in them simply because they're male and close to hand. They may or may not get it intellectually but even if they do understand it they continue to fall back on it as an excuse for their emotional stupidity. News flash for straight guys: You Ain't All That. Just because you've got a dick and a butt that doesn't make you a lust-object to the gay man/men in your locker room. Get over it.
22
@13

If that video qualifies for a NSFW rating in your workplace, you should default to a guiding assumption that anything not related to a topic specifically identified as pertaining to cute kittens is NSFW, and even then with caution.

We are not responsible for maintaining your childlike existence. The burden of maintaining your chosen reality falls ironically on you.
23
@Calpete: it's that they assume that any gay man is incapable of controlling his lust

That's just it - fear of gay men is based on ignorance. They assume, correctly, that gay men are just as lustful as they are. What they don't understand is that courtship is entirely different game when only men are playing. There's less pursuing and wooing when it comes to men because most men aren't coy about their romantic interests, so why waste time on a lost cause?

That ignorance can be and is addressed, all the time. When's the last time you've heard people bitching about gays in the military? That debate is over - turns out gays can fight, and they don't attack people in the showers.

There doesn't seem to be a way to get it into the straight phobes' heads

Yes, there is - within the NFL, it'll happen by more gay football players coming out. There's nothing or no one more enlightening then one's first gay friend. And if that friend happens to be a 6'2" 255 lb defensive end, he's a living proof that machismo and sexual orientation are entirely orthogonal.

If Michael Sam gets a chance in the NFL and does well and inspires others to come out, it'll be a sea change for homophobia in America. In the macho straight male mind, there's just no arguing with a quarterback sack.
24
P.S. It's predict that Michael Sam will fall in the draft pick as a result of coming out. Seems like the Seahawks and it's team of overlooked misfits would be a perfect place for him.
25
I'd guess that most men know they'd be a little uncomfortable showering with women because they'd physically react, even if they would rather not. Why wouldn't they be uncomfortable showering with gay men, figuring that the gay men would physically react? I guess, again, that men figure that gay or straight, they all react sexually to nakedness.
26
Collins was no longer a viable player. Sam is. SEC defensive player of the year. He will be drafted and he will change attitudes.

He already has. Ask his Mizzou teammates.
27
If only there were some way for a naked heterosexual to know if a naked homosexual is sexually aroused by his close proximity. Some external indicator of some sort… Then locker rooms everywhere would be safe.
28
@ YGBKM - Do you really believe that Jen wants more people to be raped (or almost raped), or are you just trying to score points?
29
@28
No. I think she wants men to "understand" what its like to live in constant fear of being raped and that she believes that the only way that can happen is if they too live in constant fear of being raped.

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