Comments

1
doesn't some form of internet-masturbatory-blindness occur if one posts one's own tweet? ("only if one reddits one's posting of one's tweet" ...oh)

anyway, tunnel machine schadenfreude awwwwayyy!
2
If only someone at WSDOT could have given WSDOT a map of the things WSDOT left behind that might be in the TBM's path when WSDOT started this tunneling endeavor!
3
@1) Sorry, Paul actually assembled this post when I was on the phone with him, and then I activated it from my phone because I ran into wifi problems. I'll pull the tweet down when I post the update. Hang tight.
4
#2. According to the WSDOT press release today, the location of the pipe was disclosed in the contract.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct…

"This inspection showed an 8-inch-diameter steel pipe protruding through one of the many openings in the cutterhead. We believe the steel pipe is a well casing installed by WSDOT in 2002 after the 2001 Nisqually earthquake to better understand how groundwater flows through this area. The location of this pipe was included in reference materials in the contract."
5
@3 s'ok with moi. i just couldn't resist the snark. proceed with all unbridled aplomb. (yet "Paul" (if that's his real name) should be given the "wild-n-wooly" Stranger chair for the week in punishment)
there is blame at the bottom of that pipe blocking the progress of that foul and egregious machine and it should be plumbed for its final juicy bit of vitriol, selah.
6
@4, if WSDOT told the tunnel company it was there to be avoided, that would seem to put the delay cost on the tunnel company that avoided it not. Hmm...
7
What we need is an even bigger, stronger drill, one capable of boring straight through Bertha and her obstructions. And if that one gets stuck, another one.
8
So, uh, take the pipe out.
9
I don't understand how a 52 foot diameter TBM gets stopped by a 8 inch pipe. Shouldn't it chew right through it? Or know it out of the way?
10
@9 the same way your garbage disposal gets stuck on a handful of celery.
11
Makes me think of stories of surgeons leaving sponges and other surgical tools inside their patients when they sew up the sutures.
12
@9: steel is way harder than rock. looks like a jerb for divers and torches.

props on the acronym.
14
Twitter joke!: "So you gagged on 8 inches of pipe."
15
@14, to be fair, the pipe was very hard and they sort of knew it was coming.
16
Let's back up a little bit.
The super cool, high tech, monster of a tunnel digging machine is thwarted by 8" steel pipe?
17
@16, more like, the contractor not knowing it was an 8 inch pipe that caused a delay.
18
I still think it's McGinn down there http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlaiBeLrn…
19
Which is the pipe Cthulhu is hiding in?
20
So this is a logistical error not an engineering error. And all the second guessers about how this could never work are... wrong. I'm looking forward to using the tunnel, and not seeing it when I am walking to the waterfront. Seattle wins.
21
@16 for the There Will Be More, Brother (Lost) reference win
22
WSDOT needs to save face. Maybe they should re-release the video of the earthquake-viaduct simulation.
23
I'd stop for 8" of pipe in my "excavation chamber" too...
24
Let's hear it for government efficiency.

I can't wait till we have a socialist society where the government can control every aspect of our lives.
25
Then let this be the first construction site in which the phrase "just lemme climb back there with a Sawzall for a second" goes unheard.

@24 - It appears the DOT did their part and the error is with the private contractor operating Bertha.
26
No one could have predicted this, but it doesn't matter. You bore a tunnel with the tunnel borer you have, not the tunnel borer you wish you had.
27
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhem. *clears throat*

WE TOLD YOU SO

*double birds*
28
This has all the hallmarks of Vietnam: You go in planning to win because you've never lost before; suddenly fortunes turn and you realize you're in a quagmire; so you continue to pour more bucks into a potential 'lost cause'; but it gets worse, but you would lose face if you admit defeat; so you continue blithely until you are in fact defeated; and you lose face and Bertha becomes eponymous with 'disastrous boondoggle'...as in the tunnel project turned into a Big Bertha.

Someone clarify: the article says the pipe is 8-inches thick and others say the pipe is 8 inches in diameter - big difference - like the difference between an artery and a capillary.
29
This is good news, it's the state's fault for the delay and potential cost overrun.
It looks like Ed Murray will have something more than the fact that it is a state road should there be any cost overruns, but a responsible party for the delay, the state.

I would prefer that there wasn't delay, but it is fortunate that we are able to have the responsible party admit responsibility.
30
WSDOT left the pipes. WSDOT is building the tunnel now. WSDOT here. WSDOT there. Every time something goes down, this WSDOT is involved. Every clue leads back to this WSDOT.

What is WSDOT? Who is WSDOT? What to they want? What are they up to and what do they want from us? Why can't we shake WSDOT? When at last we open the final door and discover what's really going on here, what this whole thing was all about from the beginning, will we find WSDOT behind that door? Laughing?
31
WSDOT informed STP. STP ignored it, STP fail. STP blames everyone else. Nothing is ever STP's fault--see a pattern here? Private contractors=always good, everyone else=always bad.
32
Dom,
I assume you meant to write:

“The steel pipe was placed there by the state as the result of water-well tests in 2002 but was not removed by a contractor as it should have been, officials from the state and tunneling company revealed at a press conference this afternoon, thereby placing fault with the contractor for leaving the object behind.”

There. Fixed.
33
It’s not an 8 inch pipe morons. It’s an 8-inch-diameter, 119-foot long steel pipe. Left by WsDOT. That hot bed of Democrat incompetence. Think Paula Hammond, now happily retired after 30 years of “service" to the party and state.
34
Well, at least they ran the tunnel machine until all the cutting blades were damaged.
35
@28. Yes, indeed, this is just like Vietnam.
36
I guess I'm having a little trouble parsing exactly how STP can be at fault. WSDOT originally drove the pipe & neglected to ensure it was removed properly. Even if STP was informed of it's location, it's not like they had a lot of choice in terms of avoiding it; I mean, doesn't Bertha have to follow a very precise path in order to avoid other underground obstructions AND prevent damage to surface structures? Could it really have veered as much as several tens of feet off that course without causing a whole slew of other problems?

This just sounds like WSDOT trying to stop the buck - before it gets to them.
37
@34: Exactly. That's the cherry on top of the clusterfuck. (Delicious.)
38
Oh, shit.
39
Charles should dig up the quotes from "The Walkable City" about the tunnel. (If he isn't already in the process thereof.)

Basically: "Great plan! Lose the tunnel!"
40
"That hot bed of Democrat incompetence."

Oh yes, WSDOT is known far and wide as a hippy-dippy, let-the-sunshine-in, free-love sort of agency. They hate cars, which is the real reason why they let this happen. It's all a conspiracy.

41
Now playing at a theatre near you: Big Dig, Part II

(really, I mean - Who could have seen this coming?)
42
@28
This is not 'nam, it is tunnel drilling, there are rules.
43
FFS, can we shut down the useless fucking tunnel to no where already?
Naysayers 3
Google-eyed Pollyanna idjits 0
44
@20 - who are you, Mary Poppins? Glad you're so cheerful. Too many people do not know how much money gets churned up in these "problems." Bullshit, plain and simple.
45
@28 Walter you asshole!!!! What the fuck does everything have to do with Vietnam?
46
What I find most concerning is that they hit the pipe on December 3rd, may have noticed some odd metal bits in the exhausted dirt, and kept going for two days before things really got stuck. Then the WSDOT decided to get real cute about all of it and try to suggest glacial boulders and keep us all entertained while they actually investigated how much damage the thing made of a substance they knew they couldn't drill through had done.
47
@42 Charlie dug tunnels too. Just sayin!
48
Also, the earlier press releases had stressed that they were 1/8th of the way there and now we're only 1/10th. What sort of calculations would you expect from a group that just found a half dozen more obstructions to dig up though.
49
@42
Well played
50
Jeezus fuckin' shit.

“The steel pipe was... not removed by a contractor as it should have been


I see this shit all the goddamn time. Contractors that say they'll do something, then cut another goddamn corner and don't do it, screwing up a future project.

Or contractors that do a goddamn shitty job, applying a thinner pavement overlay, or patching a cut with a thin patch. Anything to save one goddamn dollar right now, and fuck the future consequences because they won't have to deal with it.

Seriously, everyone saying it's WSDOT's fault: Fuck you all. There aren't enough inspectors in the State (or even the world) to watch every contractor and verify that every contract clause is met. And if there were, you Nancys would be bitching to high hell about the cost of paying for all those inspectors.

The State is left holding the bag because whatever goddamn fly-by-night slipshod contractor didn't remove that pipe has fled the state, declared bankruptcy, or hidden behind some shady LLC, or all of the above.
51
@42 - I would like to see a list of those rules. There are rules for going to war as well which were conveniently ignored.
52
"Oh yes, WSDOT is known far and wide as a hippy-dippy, let-the-sunshine-in, free-love sort of agency. They hate cars, which is the real reason why they let this happen. It's all a conspiracy. "

It's been run by democrats for over 20 years. Paula Hammond is your queen be sweetie.
53
@50

Hmmm... Yes. If only there were some way for the government to perform basic functions without the government having to hire a private company. Gives one pause, doesn't it?
54
@50: That's why government projects can be inherently flawed when it must take the lowest bidder. Government needs to be a consumer just like the rest of us, evaluating products and services for the highest value for the expenditures.
55
Yo, Dom, I'm genuinely confused. As Dr. Awesome points out, early in the post you write that an earlier contractor was supposed to remove the pipe. But then at the end of the post you indicate that the state was responsible for "decommissioning" the pipe.

So is it that the state is ultimately responsible and the subcontractor didn't do their job? Is that what Preedy is referring to when he says he doesn't want to talk about contracts?

Confidential to WiS: jeezus h kee-rist the Cthulhu jokes are getting old.
56
Well, no worries if this causes an overrun, you guys! You all forget that Gregoire signed that Murray bill ending cost overrun provisions in response to a successful lawsuit that said that the state can't target specific cities for overruns in transportation projects. I mean, after city voters voted 60-40 to approve the tunnel it would be hard to argue to the MCC now that voters weren't okay with overruns and delays when they were informed of the risks in a heated campaign.

I'm glad Gregoire and Murray kept their promise. It'll save Seattle taxpayers a lot of money if this project incurs cost overruns or further delays.
57
Da Nang '68. Charlie stuck a steel Pungi stick in the outhouse.
58
Will someone at KIRO tell dorky munson to shut the fuck up about Big Bertha! He's the first one in line to criticize the City, the State anything to do with Govt. on issues that he knows nothing about. He's a has been, never was much of a newsperson, does O.K. at sports though. Go away, dorky, we don't want to hear your whiney voice anymore.
59
@ 49, talking to yourself? Better take a break from work and go shoot the shit out of something.
60
@55) The issue as explained today was that a contractor (not Seattle Tunneling Partners) installed the pipe at the state's request in 2002. This was to conduct water tests early in the process to replace the Alaskan Way Viaduct. The state-hired contractor did not remove it, and there is a case to be made that the contractor is to blame. But ultimately it is absolutely the state's responsibility to make sure it removed all the stuff it inserted into the dirt--by all of its employees, contractors and otherwise--before sending a tunnel-boring machine into its path. After all, according to Preedy, "The location of the well [pipe] was described in certain documents." I've updated the post to clarify.
61
city voters voted 60-40 to approve the tunnel

When was that ?

http://your.kingcounty.gov/elections/200…
Poll Precincts Counted/Total Poll Precincts: 985 / 985 100.00%

City of Seattle Advisory Measure No. 1 **

YES, I PREFER THE SURFACE-TUNNEL HYBRID 45846 30.35%
NO, I DO NOT PREFER THE SURFACE-TUNNEL HYBRID 105194 69.65%

City of Seattle Advisory Measure No. 2 **

YES, I PREFER THE ELEVATED STRUCTURE ALTERNATIVE 65799 42.65%
NO, I DO NOT PREFER THE ELEVATED STRUCTURE ALTERNATIVE 88479 57.35%

62
@59
Good plan Matt.

There's not enough snow to ski so I can probably 4x4 it up to the range.
63
Re 60, right, and therefore fault can be placed on the state, by Seattle, and make the state eat the costs separate from the funding allocated for the project.

An early Christmas present for Ed Murray. He has a clear cut path to put the responsibility of the associated delay and cost directly back on the state, by their own admission.

Pete Holmes probably should start making a case to the idea of it gets communicated to Olympia as early and as often as possible.
It's their road.
It's their pipe.
64
Confusing! You'd think that after a month of investigating their own obstruction, they would at least have the talking points figured out. WSDOT says they knew, yet they didn't. The pipe was included in the reference materials, but contractors presumed it wasn't actually there.

From Publicola: "If we knew it was there, we would have removed it," Preedy (WSDOT)
said.

From Seattle Times: "The well site was listed in reference materials provided to bidders as part of the contract specifications, DOT says. “I don’t want people to say WSDOT didn’t know where its own pipe was, because it did,” said DOT spokesman Lars Erickson.

Makes sense.
65
Dominic, it doesn't look like the tunnel contingency was reduced. That 40 million refers to the fraction of the overall 200 million contingency (which was, at the start of this mess, 450 million until they had the project's insurance covered by the contingency which brought it down to 200 million). pg 53
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct…
66
@60, that's not necessarily true. It depends on the details of the contract language of both contracts (the one placing the wells and the STP contract), which are both public record. I'd say the biggest concern to have is that the initial contractor, if found at fault, might not have the resources to make the state whole. This may end up being a very interesting case study in one of those fancy contract law classes, once it gets settled.
67
The state's expenditure for the tunnel is capped at $2.8 billion by law. WSDOT has no authority to spend any more unless the law is changed by the legislature. So it only matters whose fault this is if the legislature is persuaded by such arguments.
68
@60: Check! Thanks for the clarification.
69
@31 I'll betcha big money that the contract absolves STP of responsibility for hundreds of things we would consider the contractors responsibility. Why else would they agree to do something so utterly insane? Nobody risking their own money would take it on.
70
MYSTERY SOLVED!!!!
Good news, its possible to solve this.
Bad news, I have a funny feeling that Bertha will never reach her landing bay. OK so that's not news, but still.
71
If the 8" diameter pipe messed up the cutting head on the bore, what can they do about that? That's fairly important.
72
Pretty sure they can change out the cutting head from inside. They wear out occasionally just on standard fare of rocks and dirt.
73
Hey, what's a few billions paid by under-$15 an hour workers between less than 8 percent federal tax paying billionaires and millionaires laughing their guts out friends?
74
@67 you are so ... naive.
75
@71 I'm sure if we get a few more people in here to complain about the project often enough, the pipe will just magically go away.
76
@72, they can change out some teeth on the cutting head, but the whole cutting head (the rotating disc that holds those teeth) can't be changed without bringing much of the machine to the surface. If that's damaged, yikes.
77
Yeah, @76, I wasn't clear on that because midnight. In this pic the red and yellow parts are teeth/cutters that are replaceable from inside, and the big green disk is all one welded-up piece.
81
@78

That was probably over a week ago. Maybe get over it?
83
If the drill is designed to cut through boulders, why was everyone speculating (including the press) that a non-man made obstacle was involved? Why is public information about this so sketchy?
84
Bertha can't cut through glacial erratics (which is why one was the initial presumed obstruction). What makes people think it can cut through boulders or bedrock?
85
@84
I'm not sure you said what you meant to say. Are you sure it can't cut through glacial erratics? Where did you come by that info?
An glacial erratic is not a type of rock, it is just a rock that doesn't fit in with its neighborhood and was brought there by a glacier. If bertha meets a boulder, that boulder would very likely be an erratic given how our region was made. And I'm not 100% on this, but I don't think bertha will have to dig through bedrock. In Seattle, bedrock is way way down there.
86
@ 84

The post we are commenting on claims that Bertha can "break boulders [but] cannot chew through metal". Cutting through boulder seems necessary for this job because large erratics are common in till around Seattle. If so, I don't understand the speculation going on in the press over the last month. Also, knowledge that it had to be metal could have been important in figuring out that job planners may have missed something like a buried pipe.
87
@80 dorky and all his crew at KIRO are drama queens! The choices for radio are dwindling in Seattle. KOMO 4 is homophobic, racist and otherwise not to be trusted, KING 5 has a good weather dept. but all their help has applied for jobs elsewhere.
88
This is pathetic. And they waited til late on Friday to drop the bombshell. Don't live in Seattle, so couldn't vote on it, but the whole tunnel project is a land grab to enrich developers.
89
#85 and 86, have you not been paying attention?

http://q13fox.com/2014/01/02/experts-say…
90
@89 If you don't register you can't embed links.
91
#90, I don't need to embed links. The partial link will allow people to google it for themselves if they'd only "Think for a moment". Or do you think Q13 produced several articles on Big Bertha with a partial title of "Experts say" on 1/2/14?
92
@90 I don't think readers are very likely to "google it". Most people don't read the unregistered posts because unregistered posters tend to be assholes, with some exceptions. You don't seem like one of the exceptions.
93
Stay classy, cracked.
94
This could be the start of a long series of misfortunes that lead to severe cost overruns. The fault of the state may not matter much to the state legislature in charge of interpreting the state law saying seattle area owners will pay overruns. Seattle wanted the park, so Seattle asked for the tunnel, everyone knew tunnels are super risky, and now we see the first of many unforeseen, let's argue about how unforeseeable, things that may crop up.

All to build a four lane highway with less capcity and utility than what it replaces and with no real transit functionality. (as in, an intercity and commuter train in the tunnel, or at least some bus stops underground downtown!).

now, what does this mean for the proponents of yet another tunnel for a subway to ballard? most major cities solve transit by building lots of subway tunnels. how are we going to ever afford it if tunneling around here is specially costly and risky? remember light rail -- they have had double their original projected cost and only get to claim on time and on budget through the fiction of basing it on the revised budget after the massive extra costs were included.

maybe a monorail or elevated light rail with a few gondolas going off here or there deserves another look. You can gondola from west seattle to sodo to the waterfront and out through interbay to ballard....put in another one from ballard to university....until we raise the 75 billion it's going to take to dig all the tunnels we need.
95
@72, 79: It is illogical to say someone is being illogical without saying what is illogical about what they said. Same thing for naïve.

Please wait...

Comments are closed.

Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.


Add a comment
Preview

By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.