Comments

1
Wow. That's the best they can do? It sounds like an excuse note "signed" by Mom, but written by the 10 year old, on why he wants to beat up the funny-looking kid.
2
No ground soldiers except to recover downed pilots/equipment.
3
This resolution is broad enough that it could technically allow an Iraq style ground war and let the US get fully drawn into the conflict. It also has no expiration date.
4
I think @3 is right, but I'm not sure how we cover all the non-groundtroop options needed to effect the objectives of - in particular - "...the Syria Accountability and Lebanese Sovereignity..." paragraph, without authorizing ground troops. A broad AUMF is not surprising, since they won't want Congress micro-managing this - having to go to Congress even once is potentially very costly to the President.

I do not think Obama wants to get into Syria - this is completely unlike the Bushies who were falling overthemselves making up excuses to act. He's been dragging his feet about doing anything. Although Assad is definitely testing the limits and will completely ignore us if we don't act now (rightly sensing impunity) I'm relieved Obama is not charging ahead unilaterally.

What is happening to civilians there is horrific but I do not believe the US can actually alter that outcome substantially - is it better that the same numbers are killed (the first 100k deaths?) by "conventional" means? How many more conventional deaths have to happen during a protracted fight which involves the US before the deaths from Chemical weapons are balanced out? Why is a death from a kinetic bomb worth less than a death by Sarin?
5
It's stunning the breadth of nations that really don't give a shit. And the fact that only France, maybe, would join us, is unsettling. Every time we involve ourselves, alone, in a civil war, we lose. Any side we join automatically becomes the pariah side. That's why I say we go directly after al-Assad. No more pussy footing around. If he's the target, it would be very difficult for him to rule or run a war.
6
"Whereas, the objective of the United States' use of military force in connection with this authorization should be to deter, disrupt, prevent, and degrade the potential for, future uses of chemical weapons or other weapons of mass destruction;"

What, specifically, is are "weapons of mass destruction"?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpeck/…
For purpose of a WMD, a destructive device is defined as a
(i) bomb,
(ii) grenade,
(iii) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces,
(iv) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce,
(v) mine, or
(vi) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses;

So we must bomb Syria to stop them from bombing themselves.
7
The moment the US drops its first bomb, the anger and resentment against Assad will be washed away and piled onto America. We're watching the same damn slow train wreck for the 10th time. We all know how this plays out. For fuck sake, yankee STAY HOME.
8
@5 - the thing is: it's not just when the US inserts itself...what you're talking about applies (to a greater or lesser degree) to any outsider in what is an internal conflict.

The only reason for us to act now is to defend the credibility of our earlier threat to "do something" if Chemical Weapons were used.

@6 - I think the distinction is the supposedly indiscriminate nature of WMD - a gun, or a grenade has to be targeted - supposedly at a military/combat target. Of course, ever since the firebombing and block busting of WW2, this distinction has been hollow. It is not something Obama should've drawn a line in the sand over two years ago.
10
We're fucked whatever we do. Or don't do.

Without overwhelming support for action by us, from the Arab world, which there isn't, we risk cementing a permanent Holy War against us.

If we don't do anything, there's going to be increasing chaos in the region, which will allow demagogues and jihadists to amass power by scapegoating the U.S./Great Satan as the supposed source of all their woes.

If we play, we lose. If we don't play, we lose.

There probably isn't any way out of this mess, but if there were, it would probably be enlisting/paying some government in the region to sort out Syria. I wonder if Turkey is busy?
11
"Why is a death from a kinetic bomb worth less than a death by Sarin? "
yes, why is death of six million jews by gas chamber deliberately, worse than death of the same number by pogroms?

why is anything worse than anything else?

here's why. if we don't punish the very worst forms of human rights abuse, including death by chemical weapons, there will be fewer disincentives against MORE deaths by chemical weapons on a MASS scale not only here but say by north korea, or by the next qadaffi opposing civil uprising.

some things are more evil and deserve punishment. there are some lines you may not cross -- because if we don't uphold the norms, the world will descend into more and more abuses. in general, in the last half of the last century, we moved FORWARD on human rights with fewer genocides and more democracy and fewer wars of aggression....we need to keep at it.

"since the firebombing and block busting of WW2, this distinction has been hollow." Actually, the firebombing and block busting of ww2 by the allies was just, but by the Nazis and Japanese, was unjust aggression. Germany and Japan today are not crying out for reparations for the allies "crimes" are they --- they are largely peaceful, and content with how we the allies remade them, administered justice over them, tried them for war crimes. There was not a descent into never ending violence by our use of violence since our use of violence was JUST and they recognize that every day they're not officially slamming us. japan doesn't even claim any right against us for nuking japan, do they.

in targeting Syria's chemical weapons facilities we will of course kill civilians. the American revolution killed civilians, too. the civil war killed civilians. we also burnt down Atlanta, remember? some violence is just. and sometimes if you don't use it, you're being unjust or you're at best allowing injustice. mlk style marches don't work against criminals like assad, much as we wish they would. if we don't do it expect chemical weapons to be resorted to by more dictators in the future. this is not a good thing.
12
if we don't do anything, more dictators will use chemical weapons, they won't be seen as "especially" bad.

if we do do something, it could work.

read that again: it could work, in the sense that the Libya thing worked. no, any intervention doesn't always lead to Iraq style quagmire. Read that again. Thank you.

it could also not work, in the sense that militarily we may not wipe out all chemical facilities and he may use chemical weapons again, but really this is "partially working" and is 80 or 90% of it as he knows we will be trying to knock those facilities out, it will uphold the notion there IS an interntional law norm against these weapons, and it will uphold the general notion of international law of human rights and law of war which has been building and helping mankind for many years. you can argue we don't have enough of such law and such punishment against transgressors but to argue
"do nothing" is to say "we give up, let the dictators use chemical weapons at will" .....and they will. Not acting is lazy, stupid, and misguided. We should stop whatever human rights violations we can stop at a reasonable cost, including all those committed by ourselves, and some or many committed by others. Any nation should do the same, and when the others don't act it's even more necessary that we act correctly.
13

Can he bomb my downstairs neighbors? They've been smelling up the neighborhood for three long days.
14
When I read Obama planned to strike at the chemical weapons facilities, but wanted approval of congress, it was the moment in which I felt the most pride in Obama since he has been elected.

For once, he both has a spine and seeks to do the right thing constitutionally (though he still claims he'd act alone, which he shouldn't since congress has to declare war). It's up to us to back him or our nation is a moral coward.
15
Here's thought on what to do:
1) make it personal - it's not about attacking Syrians, it's about al Assad
2) convene a trial in The Hague, try him in absentia, guilty as charged
3) send in the Seals
We've done it before and we can do it again. If he's running for his life, he's not going to have time to do much else. We don't kill people or destroy property. We're after him.
It may take some time but I think the U.S has proven that they know how to find a problem person and eliminate that person.
16
@14: I was proud of Obama for making the choice to follow the law, but not for the choice itself. But at least Congress will have a chance to debate it. If we still go to war then there are other problems, but at least the process was followed. It is far, far more dangerous to go to war only on the whim of one man.
17
"The moment the US drops its first bomb, the anger and resentment against Assad will be washed away and piled onto America. " Nope, the opponents who are most Syrians will be cheering and waving us flags like the Libyans did. like the French did when we liberated paris.
19
@8
"I think the distinction is the supposedly indiscriminate nature of WMD - a gun, or a grenade has to be targeted - supposedly at a military/combat target."

Except that our government specifically defines "grenade" as "WMD".
Obama's has all the time he wants to work on his proposal.
He could make it as narrowly defined as he wanted.
Or he could make it as broadly defined as he wanted.
20
the operative language is so short, really, slog should have copies that instead of the whereas clauses which legally have lesser meaning and import.

issues:
1. no time limit: not relevant, congress can repeal at any point in time.
2. in connection with chemical bio or wmd: not sure what else you'd want to say. and no, the forbes definition isn't incorporated by reference. what do you want a twenty page script?
3. they should ask him what action will be done confidentially, approve this resolution, tell him he has 20 days to implement it then it will be withdrawn.
4. if you want to tighten it add a clause saying "military action directly against chemical bio or wmd facilities or those commanding them only, is allowed." This would also allow a targeted strike against Assad personally as one commenter seeks. "In connection with" is possibly too broad. But I'd leave it very very short and announce congress will monitor and step forward if it gets too broad or too involved.
21
long ago we decided human rights violations are not internal conflicts. if they are, then you open the door to genocide, killings, torture, chemical weapons etc. we tried german Nazis not only for war crimes against us, but also for war crimes against their populations. we've been making international law and treaties on war and human rights for centuries. it's well established that there is international law, and nations can act to enforce it, and this does not violate the "sovereignty" of Syria or assad, which btw why are you defending assadsyria's sovereignty? he's forfeited any claim to legitimacy. he's just a gang of criminals, legally speaking.
22
How about "No more wars for you, Mr. President, until you've ended -- and paid for -- the first two."
23
Add this:

"Whereas, we have no idea what a fucking mess we'll get ourselves into;"
24
@22 Any bets the Republicans want to make him pay for this with food stamps?
25
Whereas the US never learns its goddamned fucking cowboy lessons;

Whereas the WEST loves to avenge killing the innocent with bombing that will undoubtedly kill more innocents;

War! WooT!
26
@25 you nailed it after the criminal usa occupation of Nicaragua you all NEVER should have gone to war against the Nazis!

Only nations That Have Done No Wrong can enforce human rights! this way, there will be none to enforce human rights bwah ha ha!
27
@15: i think you overestimate the degree to which Bashar is actually running Syria. much of the Alawite power structure predates him.
28
Pretty funny that some people want an "exit strategy" for an air raid.
29
Do’s and don’ts for progressives discussing Syria.
Do’s and don’ts for progressives discuss…
30
@29 - here's my problem with all the action-urging side of the argument:

I have no actual solutions to suggest that you encourage people to support.

Yah...so, with no real solutions, we just just "do something!!111!!11".

right? Cause there are never unintended consequences...

A nice debate with a listen:

http://intelligencesquaredus.org/debates…
31
@28: Oh yes you do. I know you have no goal for this bombing or any actual mission that can be achieved, otherwise you would have said so. Presumably you think of this bombing as a method to slap Assad on the nose so that he doesn't misbehave again. But. But. But, if he doesn't act like a good dog and only gets more belligerent, then what is your plan? What if more people are killed with chemical weapons? Or what if the war intensifies? What action should be taken then? More bombing? And what if he retaliates and sinks a ship that kills a thousand sailors or bombs Israel? What action should be taken then? Or what if in response to our bombing that Iran starts sending troops to support Assad? Or Russia gives Assad some of their supersonic cruise missiles?

You hawks never think these things through. To you, the military is just another political tool, not a means of last resort. You don't get it. There are forces that desperately want us to get drawn into this war. And the history of war has shown that making war only paves the way to more war. The doves realize that going to war should never be done at 10% power or without an exact goal. It is either all or none and that the use of our military is for our protection, not for policing the world. Britain realized this and voted no. Hopefully the US Congress will be as wise.
32
If the issue is one of enforcing international law on war crimes, let's try the perpetrators in the Hague. This business of wanting to be judge, jury and executioner doesn't seem very lawful to me.
33
Obama is making the right choice on this, the use of Chemical weapons is something we can't let go unpunished, or chemical weapons will once again be a battlefield weapon, and may be proliferated to such an an extent that terrorist will have access to this type of weaponry.

To those who are worried about civilian casualties, they're may be some. But a robust strike, that targets Missile and rocket launch pads, weapons manufacture sites, Aircraft and Air Defenses, will make it much less likely that the Assad regime will be capable of killing 30,000+ people in the next year. It will also severely curtail the ability of Assad to strike outside its borders. And with the Turks and the Israelis in our corner and on high alert, the likelihood of a successful attack against them is low.
34
"And the history of war has shown that making war only paves the way to more war"

total baloney. Japan is not at war with us, nor do they claim we did much anything wrong in ww2.

see also Kosovo, bosnia, Libya.
35
nations may punish war crimes violators and human rights abusers with military intervention or strikes under international law, we needn't try to "summons" Assad to the hague for a trial that will take a few years.

it's akin to self defense....if someone attacks you, you needen't await trial to stop it. on the international plane the universal jurisdiction to deal with pirates, genociders, war criminals includes direct military enforcement of international law norms. it's still law without courts. funny isn't it. but there it is. we rescue folks from pirates without a court order, too.

36
where's o'bomber's draft authorization to bring assad before the icc for war crimes?
37
Who, in their right mind, would trust Obama with anything more than a drinking straw and a spit wad? It was fucking stupid to draw a red line that you have no ability to keep. Of course, "sounds good, but doesn't work" IS Barry's signature move.

Right now, you have Al-Queda at war with a dictator. LET THEM KILL EACH OTHER.


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