see prez, thats what we are saying here: binge drinking is dangerous for young people and you and michelle need to do psa's on underage binge drinking and young male responsibility for those young males who lack proper role models or who may think their idiot sports coach coach is a role model. you need to be that role model prez, ok.

I'm sorry -- their lives were over the minute they were born in Steubenville.

@1: Binge drinking doesn't turn people into rapists. It makes those likely to rape MORE likely to act on it (and maybe more likely to have the opportunity to act on it). Shaping proper behavior, boundaries and respect for others is the responsibility of parents and loved ones, not the president.

More important: let's not forget the real victims here... the two colleges for whom these intelligent, talented young men would have gone on to play football. I'm sure CNN will get to that once they're done mourning this tragic verdict.

What is @1 going on about?

For reals, though. Megan, preach.

We shouldn't have sympathy for these kids because they got a guilty verdict. FFS, they molested and/or raped a girl who was incoherently blacked out at best and then bragged about it on social media. And now you're worried nobody wants you because of a guilty verdict? Fuck you.

Ladies, you want to complain about rape culture? This type of writing is what you should be complaining about. These rapists were not victims of their accuser. This writing adds to the feeling that these rapists are only victims of being caught.

Warning women not to get black out drunk is not a sign of rape culture. That's just common sense. But writing about rapists as if they had nothing to do with their crime, and that the rape just sort of happened to them...that's a sign of rape culture. And, so is the extremely small sentence these remorseless assholes received.

prez, according to the CDC:

"Binge drinking is a risk factor for sexual assault, especially among young women in college settings. Each year, about 1 in 20 college women are sexually assaulted. Research suggests that there is an increase in the risk of rape or sexual assault when both the attacker and victim have used alcohol prior to the attack."

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/w…

Well... of course he became a monster when he decided to commit and then executed the rape. But the reporter wasn't reporting when he became a monster - or even when he believed he made the transition to monster. She was reporting the moment he found out he was convicted. And although he'd be a monster either way, that moment of conviction is when the tangible nature of his life changed from freedom and the plausibility of innocence under the law, to conviction and incarceration.
I think you want to make a point about when a rapist becomes a monster and properly hang it on the crime itself. The CNN reporter on the other hand was presenting a first-hand account of the reaction when the conviction was announced, and it's a little unfair to dis her for doing so because it didn't acknowledge your point. Just sayin...

Really well put,Megan. While I understand that at teevee news like CNN the pressure is on to turn every news story into a feature story, since that's what their viewers expect, how horrible to see them get lost in what was clearly their own excitement over the rapists' boo-hooing in court. Thanks for linking to the Raw Story with the video.

/standing ovation for Megan

@8 Please. Rape and porn have both been around for centuries. And, considering rape and sexual assault has gone down as porn availability has gone up...

tim koch - You're a dickwad and part of the problem. You are trying to sideline the issue, and take the blame off of where it belongs, which is on the fucking rapists. You can try to say "Oh it's an Obama/binge-drinking problem", and blah-dee-fucking-blah whatever the fuck else, but in reality people like you that try to deflect the issue of men raping ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. Fucking grow up.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Right on, Megan!

It's telling that these boys experienced distress not as a result of raping a girl, but as a result of being caught.

We should feel sorry for them because they are children and we failed them. We should hope that they learn and grow and make themselves better. Odds are they will be alive for decades. They may not think it but their lives are ahead of them.

@9 I read that as "standing ovulation". That, too.

Teryy Pratchett once or more defined evil as "treating other people as things". I think that pretty well covers it in this case.

It doesn't help anyone to call anyone monsters, and calling them monsters makes it too easy on ourselves. If they're monsters, we don't have to consider the conditions that led to them behaving in this way.

Likewise, it doesn't justify anything to have sympathy for both the victim and the perpetrator.

@13 is right. We failed them.

Megan - Thank you.

What 13 and 16 said...

Those two rapists weren't born monsters, they learned to be that way. We made them that way. We failed them, all of us.

If they're monsters, then so are all of us.

I love seeing orphaned african-american teens having their lives ruined. so close buddy, so close.

Watching this video of Crowley and the reporter on the scene was outrageous. They completely lost all neutrality and seemed to be -- well what the fuck, are they friends of the victims' families or something?!? Why THAT much sympathy? For these little shitbags?

Because they're little jock football players in Anytown USA. Why this country, this culture still holds so much praise for assholes like this, is beyond me but it's a serious problem. Most of us guys have known the type before: popular, two-faced, charming and golden to teachers, parents and gullible girls. Monsters to the people they bully, beat and even rape. Many of them follow their jock prick destiny into frathouses in universities, make more lives miserable, step on more and more people, destroy more lives in the process one way or the other, get away with it and become manipulative sociopathic scumbags in the establishment of this insane capitalist system of ours.

What a SHAME that anything like a jail sentance, a 'sex offender' conviction on their record, would end up interrupting them on this path. As a friend of mine joked earlier today, these poor boys are now going to have to miss out on their prime raping years.

These teens are guilty of rape. This isn't getting through somehow which is stunning. When is the last time a high profile rape case's victims got such sympathy? They shamelessly raped this girl at multiple parties in one night and laughed their asses off about it. Imagine what other horrors, injustices these kids are capable of. For CNN it's a shame that they couldn't remain free. I'd already had it with CNN but holy shit, wow. Someone stick a fork in this network already.

This is our culture, wake up everyone, America loves assholes like this. The victim of this dehumanizing, horrifying, intentionally humiliating crime be damned, because a huge portion of our population would probably rather see them get off the hook while she, her family and friends bear the empty void of injustice.

CNN should fire Candy Crowley. Goddamn how disgusting

13, there was a great quote by the mother of the victim. Take all the xtian language from it, and what remains is this: no matter what society pressures you into being, we are born w/ compassion.

Sure, the rapists were told by many adults that their actions would be forgiven no matter what, and their debaucheries were encouraged. The Ohio AG has already said that the prosecutions will continue at Steubenville until those who tried to suppress the story are brought to trial. Which is as it should be. None of that excuses the actions of the rapists. You can treat them as symbols of a perverted culture, and they might be useful as that. But what you cannot deny, and this is where I agree w/ the American Justice System, is that they were actual human beings who perpetrated an actual crime. This is what they are punished for, this is what they will serve, and I think it's a good thing.

I'd also like to see the rapists' mom, the asst. DA who tried to convince the victim from reporting the crime to be disbarred.

Here's some sick shit.
http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/

Look how many assholes blame the victim.

Would you have preferred they showed no remorse or contrition? Without the recognition of one's own guilt there can be no future reform and self-improvement, and if there's no possibility of that, why bother imprisoning anyone? There is a difference between "I'm sorry for the hurt I caused" vs "I'm sorry I got caught", yes, but either of those is a necessary starting place.

The media does not report safe airplane landings. The media does not report verdicts until they are read. The media is taught to say suspects until proven guilty.

I don't for a minute that Candy Crowley or any other reporter draws the distinction like Megan does in the pity and sadness that they feel that these boys have thrown their lives away.

Megan, I suggest you channel your outrage a bit more realistically.

This upset me so much I'm going to go paint a bunch of vacant buildings pink! That will stop rape!

Go Megan! If you were on tv discussing this with Oprah or someone, I'd watch for at least 5 minutes. My wife would insist we watch hockey instead.

Team Megan. Sure, some folks like @ 13 have a point about the kids, but Megan has a more important point about all of us. Those of you focusing on this case are missing the big picture.

There are an awful lot of drunken teenagers. And they do some admittedly stupid shit, like being all loud or passing out in a bush or breaking their parents' favorite lamp at a house party. But you know what almost none of them do? Rape somebody.

I am so fucking sick of hearing people blame this on their being young or drunk. That is not the reason why they raped this girl and then posted pictures of it on the internet. Now, think about that. Why would somebody violate a girl and then post pictures evidencing their violation on the web? They knew that by doing so, they would completely humiliate this girl. They wanted to dehumanize her. They wanted to brag about it, the way a hunter displays a trophy of an animal s/he's killed.

they displayed no genuine remorse until they were sentenced. So what were they remorseful of? The rape itself? Or the fact the consequences of their actions?

if the only thing keeping you in check is fear of retribution, then you do not see what you are doing as wrong. I smoked pot before it was legal. I didn't believe that it was wrong to do so, and I still don't. I felt the law prohibiting marijuana was an unjust law. I have never raped anybody, however. It's not because I was afraid of any consequences. It's because deep down inside, I know that rape is morally evil.

if theese two assholes do not feel that rape is evil, and the only remorse they express is at the legal consequences they now face, something fundamental has broken down here. Somewhere along the way, these two boys failed to code into their morality a respect for women.

And if there is anything we should all feel a bit introspective about now, it's that. There is something wrong with our culture. We as a society do not see women as human beings in the way we see men as human beings. We must fix this. We must impart upon our youth an unalterable belief that women are human and worthy of respect.

@29

why don't you read what StuckInUtah linked to at #26 and then get back to us. if you think there isn't a connection between bullshit reporting like this and a thousand douchebags sharpening their knives on Twitter in order to blame the victim, you deserve to read every hateful comment.

@28, "I'm sorry I got caught" is not any kind of starting place.

@35: Don't confuse Twitter with CNN (or other outlets) and its reporters. The subject was about their reporting.
The sewage on Twitter is totally different story.
Oh, and don't forget it was Candy Crowley who help Juanita Broaddrick come forward with Ms. Broaddrick's allegations of sexual assault on her in the 1980's by then Arkansas Attorney General Bill Clinton in a Little Rock motel room; so I would say there isn't any doubt about Ms. Crowleys sincere and respectful work as a reporter when it comes to rape.

We failed them... and they still sexually assaulted a girl. And from the sounds of it, she wasn't the only one... and they weren't the only rapists. Some infractions you can address verbally or with detention. But when it comes to destroying and scarring another human being for life, somebody's gotta go to jail. Last I heard, even the dumbest high school kid knows you're not supposed to treat anyone like a sex doll. It seems like Steubenville needs a gentle reminder that even the progeny of the local Brahmins can't rape and joke about it and not go to jail.

And I hope the football program of that one horse town sucks from here on out. The parents and the teachers knew but they hid it because they were too devoted to the god of football. Well, if that idol is making them lose perspective of the things in life that really matter, then maybe that's an idol that needs to be torn down. I realize that high school football is the only thing going in that town, but endemic rape is too high a sacrifice.

And I also hope the local community (the girl actually lives in the town across the river) doesn't turn its frustration on the victim and harass her, and her family, for speaking up.

Only a tiny minority of rapists ever see the inside of a cell because of their crime.

The news report I read said that they had to register as juvenile sex offenders. Does anyone know if that's functionally any different than registration for adult offenders?

I just watched report for the first time. Mays apologizes for taking the picture and distributing it but not for the rape. As if....uggh.

Amen, sister!

Candy Crowley was reporting what she saw. Megan Seling was taking righteous, political stand to earn the plaudits she's received here.

The difference between a journalist and a phony.

Funny how the gun nuts never take advantage of these thread and advocate arming rape victims.

I have had nightmares about the kind of shit these guys did. I don't mind them living their own for a while.

Mandatory reading, especially for men, about this case:

http://prospect.org/article/toxic-mascul…

"It’s time for a serious intervention in masculinity. It’s not enough to not be a rapist. You don’t get a cookie or a Nobel Peace Prize for that. If we want to end the pandemic of rape, it’s going to require an entire global movement of men who are willing to do the hard work required to unpack and interrogate the ideas of masculinity they were raised with, and to create and model new masculinities that don’t enable misogyny. Masculinities built not on power over women, but on power with women."

@the unregistered who keeps bringing up porn...

I'll agree, porn could very well be a factor. I wouldn't agree that porn is the only factor though.

Women are treated like shit in many venues other than porn. Porn is only one of them... and it's one of the more transparent ones. Those rapists may have been influenced by anti-woman porn, I could concede that. But I can't believe that porn is the sole reason they raped. There's way too much non-porn related misogyny out there to blame a single-variable-to-explain-all argument.

48, no, that's just dumb. Megan isn't 'reporting,' she's giving her opinion on a local blog. you're an idiot for drawing an equivalency to a national news show. Also, as a reporter, it matters what you pay attention to. By concentrating on the rapists & commiserating w/ them, she's effectively erasing the victim, and asking the nation to feel sorry for the rapists.

What I find particularly hysterical & pathetic is that this is a good example of the kind of things liberals are always accused of, bringing sympathy to the criminals, and yet all the conservatives are falling over themselves to take on that "liberal" role. And why? Because the crime isn't striking or protesting or exposing atrocities committed by our military, it's raping a female. Keepin' it classy, conservative-style. Rapists and apologists for rapists.

@13: High schoolers are not children. These creeps are very close to adulthood.

A rape story not written by Ciena Madrid? The rape couldn't have happened.

Bingo! The gun nuts come out pro-rapist!

Well, what if the rape wasn't a legitimate rape? Is that why her body didn't try to just shut that whole thing down?

@57, a woman's body can only shut that whole thing down if she's awake and aware that she's being raped, so, you know.

It's like the basis for the defense's case: that this and any other unconscious girl’s body was the boys’ to use because “she didn't affirmatively say no."* Because that makes total sense. Not to mention, I don't think I've ever "affirmatively" said no to anything. What a sorry choice of adverb.

*see link @51 for source

It's unfortunate that only two young men will go to jail. This is why I support Good Samaritan laws: not because I think everyday folks need to be compelled to be heroic, but because they provide a necessary, if small, counterweight to the social forces that keep people from intervening in situations of grave crime. I want to live in a society that is intolerant of rapists *and* their enablers.

Ugh, this whole case has left me carrying a knot of impotent rage around for weeks now, like some gnarled, ectopic anger baby. It was only after reading this story that I was able to appreciate Inglourious Basterds fully. Sometimes it's important to recognize that we're all ultimately products of our environment, playing out our language games as best we can, mere expressions of the current mode of production, figments of a superstructure. But sometimes it's important to remember that a Nazi ain't got no humanity and they need to be destroyed. That's not sadism, it's pragmatism.

@49 & @56: "Funny how the gun nuts never take advantage of these thread and advocate arming rape victims...Bingo! The gun nuts come out pro-rapist!"

What a close one! I was worried we might get 50 posts into a topic without it turning into a gun control debate. Well done.

@41 - thanks. Yes.

Won't somebody feel some pity for the rape crew? They could have played football in college! Oh the humanity!

Wait, that isn't the right word. What is the right word to use to bemoan the fate of rapists (and possibly serial rapists) who were convicted in court? Can't think of a word? Neither can I.

Falling asleep or blacking out drunk among friends should, at worst, get you some dicks drawn on your face. That's what you "deserve" for passing out at a party. The high-risk situation you should fear if that your friends get a bit freaked out at your depressed respiration and bring you to a hospital.

When I teenager, I really wanted to (and did- and, by the way, do) trust my friends, including relatively casual ones. I opened myself up and made myself vulnerable around then, because it increased the depth (and let's be real, increased the fun drama a little bit, because teenagers) of my relationships.

The advantage these guys took of someone's vulnerability robs everyone around them of something that's fun and psychologically meaningful, and one of the joys of being 16. Having to be on your guard at a local party is just the pits. It's not by any stretch the worst thing they did, but it stinks.

It's interesting that so many of you express concern about the rapists, but you don't express any concern for the girl.

For a while now, pictures of her being raped have circulated online. That's going to mark her out for abuse, since most psychopaths look for the already victimized. And yet you're worried about these two men being branded as sex offenders? What about the way they branded her?

Don;t you think her pain deserves to be discussed here?

Hey Tim Koch. This wasn't a binge drinking thing. They drugged the girl, for the purpose of raping her, as 'revenge' for dumping one of their friends.

@66 That was only hypothesized. I'm all for blaming the rapists for what they did, and I wouldn't put it past them...but, I've also known many a high school and college girl who willingly got ragingly black out drunk in their alcoholic experimentations.

@Hysterical Anon Porn Troll

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?a…

If your theory was correct, overall rape and sexual assault would be UP, not down.

Don't forget--these were very young men. These young men, including failing themselves, were failed by there mentors. Whether it was their coaches or fathers, they were failed by them. Those people are the ones that teach young men how to conduct themselves in the world, and those people did a terrible job. They should be feel very sad that they failed in their jobs and unlike those boys, they do not have to spend time in jail. Nor will they suffer the consequences of carrying the label of sex offender.

OK -- so I know the whole "misuse of literally" thing has been beaten to a pulp (figuratively, of course) but I gotta point out the egregiousness of this one...

" star football players, very good students — literally watched as they believed their life fell apart.”

I mean, OF COURSE they "literally" watched as their lives were falling apart -- they were in the freaking courtroom as the defendants in a rape case! I think what the writer was going for was to suggest they watched as they believed their lives were literally falling apart, which STILL would have been inaccurate, but at least in line with the more common and increasingly accepted form of it's misuse!

Otherwise, I've not much to add. Obviously those fucks got what they had coming.

@65 Well the article discussed is about the convicted rapists, not the girl. Durp.

Thanks for your concern?

Ohio does have a law that bystanders have to help. The DA did say he was going to continue on to see if he could prosecute bystanders especially those who recorded any images (thereby proving they knew something was going on). For the life of me, I cannot understand any other girl standing by and doing nothing (if only quietly going off and calling a parent or the police).

These guys will get out when they are 21. Their lives are not over (but I'm sure to them it seems that way).

Can't tell you how happy I am to hear this verdict. I'm delighted to hear about the misery these entitled jerks are experiencing now and will continue to experience. I'm sure they have been surrounded all their lives by a culture that says it's OK for men to just use women like objects for self-gratification, primarily because they're little local BMOCs.

The people to blame here are the parents and coaches who encourage this kind of mentality (and lack of respect for other human beings).

This whole thing reminds me of going to school in Shelby County, Alabama(the county that is trying to kill the Voting Rights Act). I had hoped in the 20 years since I left that places where football was worshiped above all else were a thing of the past( in my old school one girl was raped with a baseball bat and nothing ever came of it).

Oh well.

@62: If young men based their sexual behaviors on porn, they'd only be interested in double penetration, deepthroating, and jacking off into a waiting woman's mouth. And they'd all have insecurity issues about their penis size.

@72: You've been on one of those "BARELY LEGAL" sites too much lately.

I think Black Girl Dangerous put it best. It's okay to also feel sorry for these boys, but not to the point where you forget that their lives are ruined because they chose to harm someone else, and that she might not be doing so well right now either.

Apropos from The Onion today...

http://www.theonion.com/video/college-ba…

The monster's life doesn't fall apart when they act like a monster, it falls apart when there are consequences for their actions.

I have known football players get away with all sorts of shit (myself included). They get coddled, told how important they are and authorities look the other way on so many transgressions. Lets not forget that the only reason they are being prosecuted is because they got recorded otherwise we would have never heard about it. This happens way too much in schools all over.

Maybe... just maybe it might make someone stop and think before they try the same thing.

To the "we failed these boys" crowd: you don't get a pass on raping someone because you had shitty parents or a misogynistic football coach. A lot of us had shitty parents and have managed never to rape anyone. Pull your heads out of your asses.

These boys weren't crying over the rape they committed, they were crying over their punishment. That's clear as day to anyone who's being honest.

I wonder what these evil, stupid Steubenville enablers would be saying on Twitter if one of the drunk footballers had passed out and been hauled around and raped like this poor girl was? Would any of them be saying that they deserved it because that's what you get for being drunk? Next time I see a drunk footballer at a pub, am I entitled to get a gang of friends together and shove things up his arse and YouTube it? Or does that rule only apply to women?

SQUICK ALERT. although if you are reading about this topic anywhere, you are probably squicked out completely. I know I am

When I was a young lass, I discovered in a fight with my brother Joe over something stupid that I could shut him up immediately by kicking him in the nuts.

My mother and stepfather had a very long conversation with me about kicking nuts. Its a valuable weapon, they said, but can ONLY be used when you are in danger of death. It’s not for locking down your dibs spot on the couch or for getting the last word in a debate. Dont even threaten it, they said, as it is a terrible thing to do to a male. Dont kick guys in the nuts. Hands, feet and blunt objects off the nuts.

I am reasonably sure that they did not have the same conversation with my brothers about rape. That is too bad. Women get talked out of even hinting that they can protect themselves by using the nutsack as a punching bag. Not so men and rape.

I’ve been raped. Too bad that I got so many lectures about the sanctity of the nuts that it never occurred to me to kick him there, grab and pull or otherwise use the male achilles heel to save myself. I wasnt in danger of dying, although it changed my life forever.

Its funny how it seems ok to threaten rape like rape is the go to angry retort. Hell, I’ve seen it on the internets in reference to the Stubenville rapists, “Oh, those boys will get their taste of rape in prison.”

Rape of rapists isnt any more right than the rape they committed. That is another part of our rape culture. Oh, we kill people who kill people and we close our eyes to the rape of rapists. Neither is really anything more that revenge.

Either we go full on eye for an eye or we try our best to be civilized and not only teach our girls to not kick nutsacks but also teach everyone that rape is the nutsack kick of everyone it happens to. (that sentence is poorly worded, but you get the picture) and that rape is completely unacceptable. for anyone by anyone. Or we move on to rapists being punished by a repeated nutsack kicking for the exact amt of time they raped.

I dont want that, really, although the idea of kicking my rapist in the nuts over and over for 20 mins times once a month for 14 months sounds kinda good. But it is not. Men must be taught by their parents, by schools and by society that touching women against their will is the equivalent of a repeated nutsack kick that aches for the rest of your life.

Conversations tend to meander and I, for one, value the opinions of the disoriented and disturbed. But, if you rape someone, sympathy doesn't enter the equation. It's not like tripping or shoplifting.

You were failed by parents, society and genetics. The fact that the help you needed wasn't available prior to your raping (budget constraints) really does not excuse anything.

I used to love high/drunk/public sex as much as anyone. Not rape.

“my life is over, no one is going to want me now.” He's almost certainly talking about his football dreams. So sick. It's still all about football?

Query too - the local prosecutor opted to try them as juveniles - not adults - meaning they will most likely be out at 21, and their records sealed, and no jury. Even the prosecution, started only after tremendous public pressure, favored them as much as it could.

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