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Nov 19, 2012 at 3:20 pm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSMEepWv…
But let me add this:
"The strikes were in retaliation for the launching of more than 100 rockets at Israel in recent days"
Cherry picking the start of the timeline to justify the bombing of civilians isn't very ethical, whatever your ideological point of view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PGnBmZSH…
Emily Hauser has a diligently cited timeline on the Atlantic that you can consult for verification. Also, the current death toll for Palestinians stands at 100, as reported by Reuters, including 24 children and 10 women. Out of these 53 were civilians. Israeli death toll still stands at, 3, though one must not make light of the trauma suffered by Israeli pets: http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/dogs-w…
However, Israel didn't start the bombing of hamas, hamas started the bombing of israel. israel had no choice. hamas had a choice and started it. there is no morality in equal numbers of dead. the quote quoted suggests that now israel must sit and wait for 97 israelis to be killed. THEN, it would okay for israel to respond. this is crazy and evil logic where hamas started it and israel isn't dedicated to pushing gazans into the sea but hamas is dedicated topushing israel into the sea.
the rule of proportionality isn't you get to kill an equal number and no more. it's you get to use force roughly proportional to the threat. hamas in sending 750 rockets is posing a threat of having the next one kill 100 israelis if it lands in a crowded market. israel is allowed to MAKE them stop.
Gyros are best at Costa's. They are Greek.
I would give Mexico back to them, and grant them statehood.
"Who started it?" is an impossible question to answer and a pointless question to ask. The question is, "Who will end it?", and I believe that only Israel is in a position to do that.
Just how would Israel "end it" if Hamas continues sending rockets into Israel?
Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians, so I'm not understanding your comment. I don't understand why Palestinians think they can send rockets into Israel without any consequences.
Rockets are coming from Gaza because they are coming from Hamas. Hamas is fighting Israel's occupation of Palestine, it is not just about Gaza.
I agree that Israel needs to get out of the occupied territories ASAP, and Bibi Netanyahu is a menace to all that is good. But it is also true that Hamas doesn't just want Israel out of the occupied territories. Hamas wants to destroy Israel entirely. They are very upfront about this. That makes it hard to negotiate with them.
When did the U District start getting reduced to "the UD"? This is unacceptable and must stop immediately.
Have you ever heard of the American Southwest?
Also, your logic would indicate that it would be fair for Pakistan and Yemen to attack America to retaliate against the drone attacks being carried out in their sovereign territory. Why this awful double standard? How come the only country to use nuclear weapon, and to initiate the morally bankrupt war in Iraq gets a free pass? Is it because your white skin is worth more than my brown skin?
Sure, the naked aggression and display of power have parallels with Israel and the Palestinians, but not nearly enough to make the comparison started upthread valid.
No kidding. Do you think anon1256 understands that? The ignorant motherfucker probably thinks Israel has been controlling Gaza and the West Bank since 1948.
(and for the record, mr. gyros is cheap, charles)
Just go up there and give it a try. The worst that can happen is that you'll be out a few bucks, but that will come with the benefit of being able to lord it over everyone on Slog for their plebeian tastes.
@ 34 - well, now I'm confused. I think anon1256 understands that Gaza 2012 doesn't compare to Mexico 1846. So ... you agree with that too? Maybe I've misread something.
Just in case you don't understand, history means what actually happened, and when, and I don't mean in November 2012, I mean from 1947 on, when the Arab nations refused the UN's offer of most of the property Israel has now, including the West Bank. So start there, and come back when you're finished.
"This will continue until they love Thier children more than they hate us." Golda Meir
the terrorists killed 19 on an israeli bus. so now do you admit israel can go kill 19 ? that's what your logic suggests.
in fact, the rule of law about proportional force does not require equal numbers of deaths. it requires that force be justified, as in, you can't use it aggressively, as hamas does. second, if it's defensive it must be proportional to the threat -- not to the success or lack of success. since hamas poses a threat of death to israelis, and other daily harm from their rocket attacks which no didn't start november 8th but have been going on all year about 800 in total, then israel can use lethal force includilng some collateral damage if hamas causes it by locating amongst civilians. the next rule of proportional self defense is, once you eliminate the threat you stop; you don't get an even number of deaths. thus USSR had to stop fighting germany when USSR won and was not allowed to go kill 20 million germans.
hamas can end this violence at any moment, and should. also, the blockade is against arms not food or all things, so it's tailored and proportional too. finally, to joke about gyros is basically snobbish, sick, and avoidant of the political realities here; the worst form of faux hipster faux urbanism which simply masks the underlying ignorance, banality and smugness many faux progressives show on the mideast issues or use of force generally. I guarantee you if the rockets were hitting in your neighborhood, you'd be in favor of a forceful response.
From an Israeli guy actually, which is great cause you can't find a PC way to swear at him :)
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/11/16/a…
Also, the following for anyone who so far thinks it's an Israeli-Palestinian 'conflict' but may be intelligent enough to be persuaded into reading around a little bit (Although like any other critic of Israel he has been villified enough: the other side of freedom of speech, 'if you can't ban them, make them irrelevant'). Here:
"The incursion and bombardment of Gaza is not about destroying Hamas. It is not about stopping rocket fire into Israel, it is not about achieving peace.
The Israeli decision to rain death and destruction on Gaza, to use lethal weapons of the modern battlefield on a largely defenseless civilian population, is the final phase in a decades-long campaign to ethnically-cleanse Palestinians.
Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely-crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks, mosques, and slums to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command [and] control, no army… and calls it a war. It is not a war, it is murder.
When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can't defend yourself when you're militarily occupying someone else's land. That's not defense. Call it what you like, it's not defense."
(Noam Chomsky, ZNet)
'My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers who kill Palestinian grandmothers'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6C…