Super sweet and well done, Mr. Shore. Thanks.

An alternative to Shore's very (in this case, unusually enough, commendably) Christian response would be to use the "Yo, Is This Racist" strategy and just tell your pastor that he's a bigoted asshole and you don't have time for his bullshit.

You're never too young to call an asshole an asshole.*

(* - Please take this with a grain of salt if you feel it may place you in physical danger or danger of having your support structure taken from you; as a minor you are in an entirely unjust position of some vulnerability and it behooves you to get what you need from your parents even if you have to mouth a few things at them you don't believe until you're a legal adult.)

Good luck, SBB.

I've been in your seat. I'll hope that your experience involves less attempts at intellectual and emotional bullying. It ended with my leaving for good. It was both painful and liberating, but worth the journey. Personally knowing where you stand is always a good thing, but not always comfortable in the moment.

Kind regards,
kim

The pastor is right. But only in the line where he wrote this: "For evil to triumph all is needed is for good people to say nothing." Too bad he doesn't realize he is on the wrong side of the equation.

After your meeting with the pastor, during which he will try to scold and humiliate you while he rigidly clings to his obsolete dogma despite your best efforts to broaden his understanding, you can thank him for liberating you from his church and freeing up your time to do more productive things.

Awesome advice, except I would disagree with the part about arguing that the bible does not condemn homosexuality. You're just gonna lose that one. And if you let the argument be put on those terms, then you'll be forced to admit that if the bible *does* condemn it, then he's right and you're wrong.

Much better to take the Dan Savage approach -- nobody takes all of the bible literally, and there is no better case for taking this bit literally than all the other crazy bits.

Actually, I even take that back. For a young person being put in this position, my advice would be DON'T ENGAGE. Sit there and listen politely, and keep repeating, "Thank you for your perspective. I still disagree." Repeat until pastor is exhausted and allows the meeting to end.

Sometimes I think Christianity - all organised religion, really - is doomed, and then I read something like this, and I realise that maybe we can strike a balance. Maybe we atheists and agnostics can live side-by-side with humanist Christians like Mr Shore, here. That was an incredible piece.

#1 FTW. Done and done.

#7, nowhere do I find in John Shore's response anywhere that he says that the bible does not condemn homosexuality. He says God does not and Jesus does not. And he says that homosexuality is not a major emphasis in the bible. All true.

I would add one suggestion. Ask the pastor to point out all the ideal hetersexual marriages in the bible. He'll be hard pressed to come up with any.

I don't see why this kid has to go into the lion's den any more than he already has. It's not his responsibility to get his church on the non-abhorrent path that it currently is. That job is the pastor's. If he wants to be a nasty bigoted fuck, then let him. Just let him do it by himself without your support.

You can at least say you tried? What kind of small fucking consolation prize is that shit? Their minds are already made up. Fuck 'em.

Anyway, good luck whatever you choose to do.

He can if he so chooses, and sometimes it does help. Shore does the good job of pointing out that the man's obligation is to his own safety and well-being. Just because you're not inclined to do shit doesn't meant everyone is that way.

Oh, never mind, I reread and saw that the mother is forcing him to meet with the pastor. Sounds like my godawful horrible excuse for a mother.

I'm assuming this bright kid merely copied and pasted the text of his pastor's e-mail into his question to Dan. If that's the case, pastor needs to pray for some help with his spelling and grammar.

@12 Yes, sometimes it does help. With friends and open-minded family members who don't force you into a meeting to keep you in line. Definitely not usually with pastors spewing hate. Sorry, I was raised in this kind of fundamentalist mind-control bullshit. I don't have a lot of patience with or hope that they will ever change. They will only die off. I'm not saying being inclined to try is bad, but don't have any expectations whatsoever about actually making a difference to these people.

Huzzah! My cousin just married his longtime partner this past weekend and it was a beautiful ceremony that brought many to tears. I should be so lucky to find love like they did.

SBB, you could always point out that civil marriages--the ones performed in city hall without any priests or pastors--are not recognized by the churches, only by the laws of man. You could point out that heterosexual civil marriage didn't do away with religious marriage and that there's no reason to think that homosexual civil marriage would either.

If that doesn't work, remember, SBB, you're a Christian, and surviving persecution is something Christianity appreciates.

"Great and Nimble Minds." Great title for a book, whether it's an autobiography of J. Shore or an analysis of the debate about Christianity and homosexuality.

As a former fundy evangelical, I disagree with a lot of Mr. Shore's advice. If you're forced to go, listen politely, thank him for his time, leave, never go back, and never discuss it with him again. Don't reveal anything about your state of mind or whether you agree or disagree. Don't engage, don't debate, don't try to change his mind, don't explain your position, and don't respond in any other way. His job, his main professional skill in life, with years of training and experience, is the ability to emotionally manipulate people. He's better at it than you are and he probably has backup. You're alone, you're a kid, and it's not your job to educate him. Mr. Shore's advice would be good if this were an even match, two grown men on neutral ground, but it's not. You're the vulnerable one here. Protect yourself and get away.

"you could always point out that civil marriages--the ones performed in city hall without any priests or pastors--are not recognized by the churches, only by the laws of man."

And, conversely, many churches solemnize religious marriages that are not recognized by law as civil marriages. The two things are completely different. Religious marriage is a spiritual thing. Civil marriage is a public policy thing. If your pastor wants to mobilize against civil marriage equality, he'd better have public policy arguments, not religious arguments. So to make religious arguments yourself would be a category error.

It's always worth trying... Often for your own sake but sometimes mountains do move. Words and efforts and actions can have an effect...it might just take a long time before that effect can be seen.

Or not. And it doesn't mean you have to stick around until it does.

Though I'm also inclined to agree with @20...at least in this case.

I have to second the advice in #7. DO NOT ENGAGE. It is very likely that you will be guilted into some kind of private altar call or emotional beatdown. "Thank you so much for your time" and "I really appreciate you being willing to talk to me about this" and "I'd like time to consider your perspective" are good ways to string the meeting along. You will be told that it's "God's" perspective and asked why you don't just beg for God's forgiveness and repent of your disobedience. Your reply to that is trickier. With parental pressure in play (they are probably being put in the same pressure cooker you are going into), my best advice is to say "Jesus says to love everyone. I need to pray about this." and then STOP. Smile. Silence is REALLY HARD, but it is your MOST POWERFUL TOOL.
Hope this helps, and if it's too late for the young person above, then I hope it helps someone.

No. Sorry Mr. Shore. I disagree.

If SBB was an adult, and choosing to try to work things out with a pastor he disagreed with, I would mostly agree.

But this is a 16 year old. He should in no way be required to engage and try to win an argument with this asshat. The pastor's argument is irrational from the outset. There is maybe 1 in 1000 16 year olds who would have any chance of having a rational adult conversation with someone like this. There is a power imbalance from the moment he walks in the door. His mom is forcing him to go. His paster is an adult, and obviously will treat him as a child (otherwise he wouldn't have gone to the mother to force the meeting). If his mom remains, then they'll both be ganging up on him. This situation is fucked.

Go to the meeting if you have to. DO NOT ENGAGE in any sort of discussion. @7 is completely right. Just tough it through the meeting as best you can, and leave as soon as possible. Almost anything you say will only be twisted and used to manipulate you, and will only prolong the meeting.

Once the meeting is over, if your mom still insists that you have to go to church (or if you yourself still want to), spend a few minutes research online, and find a more accepting church. There are other churches around that are far more tolerant, run by pastors who would not try to manipulate you this way.

Fuck all of that @1-@18.

When you meet with the douche stay calm, cool and collected and tell him that he is a bigot who shouldn't be in a position of authority. His careless use of the word "evil" demonstrates this most clearly. Then, tell him that you have decided to pursue a regimen of religious studies on an individual basis, and that you'll be spending your time learning ancient Greek, Syriac and Aramaic to discern the true essence of your holy book.

Or, you can do what I did at age six: lock yourself in the bathroom at the last second, so that your mom will be late to church/the meeting. Become an atheist already, and free your mind of that bullshit.

@19:

1) Who are these millions of assholes who claim to speak for god?

2) Why do any of them get to say what god wants?

3) Ah, you finally got the point, you dumbass.

I tend to agree with those who say don't engage. At least, don't engage on an emotional level. If you can put up a giant wall that says "his opinion doesn't matter", and engage on only in a detached, rational manner, then you might be okay.

I think it's important to note that we're not necessarily saying you might be incapable of having this debate because you're too young. But, rather, because there is an extreme power imbalance (pastor-parishioner, the age difference, the fact that you're being forced into this meeting) and because, as @20 said, it's this guy's job to emotionally manipulate people.

Hell, most of us would have to really psyche ourselves up to stay calm and rational in a situation like that. Good luck to you!

Last thing: what's the status of Dan's debate?

@19, for once - to my sincere shock - you actually kinda have a point.

If you absolutely must insist on including any god or gods in your decision-making process at all, you, yourself must interpret the will of that god through your own conscience, not through the politically-motivated sermonizing of any self-styled religious authority.

Of course at that point you might as well just cut the god business out of the loop entirely and rely on your conscience, but hey, we're working with what we've got, here.

@21 I wouldn't go so far as to say that civil and religious marriage are completely different. In the U.S., many people are both civilly and religiously married. There is so much overlap that they are almost the same thing. They are both about love, loyalty and commitment between two people. They are both about family and about the relationship between the couple and the community, and both reaffirm the idea of the nuclear family as the foundation of Western society.

But yes, we have seen that civil marriage does not impede on religious freedom (though it did reduce some of the power of the churches), which invalidates the idea that homosexual civil marriage will impede religious freedom.

Tell your mother and anyone else who will listen that you "feel unsafe" around the pastor and do not want to meet with him, especially unsupervised. Hell, it's probably at least partly true. The trick is that you must not get any more specific. You don't want to make any false allegations or give them something they can argue against. Just repeating "I feel unsafe" should create a feeling of deep uneasiness in the adults around you as their imaginations run wild and with any luck you will be let off the hook. I think in your situation this sort of tactic is entirely justified.

@31, almost the same thing, except in the cases of, say, Unitarians or Lutherans who can get married in the eyes of their own church but not in the eyes of the state.

"In the U.S., many people are both civilly and religiously married. There is so much overlap that they are almost the same thing. "

I have to strongly disagree. A great many people are religiously married, though not civilly married (many gay and lesbian married couples, for a start). And a great many people (Google tells me 30% of all married couples) are civilly married without having any kind of religious ceremony. There is less overlap than you seem to think.

A religious ceremony confers no tangible benefits (except perhaps wedding presents from family and friends, and warm fuzzy feelings). A civil ceremony won't save you from burning in hell (if you believe in that sort of thing), but it is an integral part of family law, determining questions of inheritance, tax law, employment and insurance benefits, etc.

They really are very different concepts, very different institutions. And religious arguments have no place in a discussion over civil equality for gay and lesbian Americans under the Constitution, or under the laws of Maryland.

I got curious since the church name was in there and it was obviously in Maryland (and I'm bored at work).

The sermon is the second one on this page. I'm listening to it now (because I am a masochist). Not overtly offensive (he doesn't say we should kill all the homos - at least not 15 minutes in). But his arguments are really stupid.

Nevertheless, Dan, you should watch this in preparation for your debate/discussion.

http://www.mycrosswind.com/message-archi…

SBB - I'm with the group that says to listen respectfully, put forth your feelings if you can do so without losing your temper, and then, if you can manage it in your family, stop attending church. If you still want to be a part of a faith community, find an ELCA Lutheran church, a UCC church, a progressive Episcopal church, or an MCC church. You will be welcomed, and your views won't be out of place.

Oh man, two of my favorite people, John Shore AND Dan Savage in the same virtual space. My head a'splode!

Not to mention the fact that even though 70% of married couples are religiously married, the pastor of SBB's church would probably only consider about 35% of them to be "married" according to his God. Catholics, Jews, Muslims - none of their marriages would be religiously valid to him.

We allow churches to have their own special definitions of "marriage." Divorce and remarriage are anathema to Catholics, but no-one would ever require a Catholic to recognize the spiritual validity of a divorcee's second civil marriage. The state, however, must extend equal protection and due process to all civilly married couples, whether inter-faith, inter-racial, or intra-sex.

Your pastor wants to talk with you about why you've renounced your church membership. The pastor's primary goal will be to get you back into the "fold" so the pressure will be high.

The key is not to try to win a debate here. The key is to point out that the church's stance on the issue is in conflict with your values on the matter, and then *don't engage in a debate.* The pastor will bring out the big guns and unless you've really done a lot of research -- more than Shore has written in his HuffPo article--it will be very hard to win that; in fact, there probably won't be an opportunity to win, your points will just be blown off or ignored (I have debated this issue with pastors online with no effect on them). Simply thank him for his time and for showing you his perspective, and remain silent insofar as is possible. This is not a matter "essential to salvation." Church membership is not "essential to salvation." Explain that this is an area where you feel Christians are free to disagree--even if HE disagrees with that--and explain that with such a degree of disagreement, you feel you cannot be a good conscience member of the church and *leave it at that*.

If you feel you absolutely must engage in the debate, these are the pointers I can give to those who don't or won't regard the "clobber" passages as bullshit:

1) disregard Leviticus (purity codes aren't applicable to modern Christians)
2) The activities described in Romans 1 are *clearly* a *result* of idolatry (i.e. "FOR THIS REASON"). They cannot therefore apply to people who have never engaged in idolatry. This is, incidentally, the only arguable mention of female homosexuality in the Bible--it is not mentioned anywhere else in the Bible and outside this passage cannot be considered to be prohibited or even wrong. (also: Romans 2:1 should be read -- aloud--if you're going to go into Romans 1)
3) The Greek words arsenokoites and malakoi (also applicable ONLY to males) (often referred to as "homosexual offenders" or the like--these are BAD TRANSLATIONS) can refer to exploitative slave/master relationships. The exact meanings of the words are unknown although they definitely refer only to males and mean something like males lying down with males or effeminate men). There are theories (I think they're weak, but others put a good deal of stock in them) that they refer to some sort of ritual prostitution rather than what we conceive of as modern gay relationships.

4) Jesus's clear teachings on marriage condemn divorce and remarriage as sin (adultery), yet we as a society (and as Christians) have accommodated it and acknowledge it (and its social/civil aspects), while not always sanctioning it. Perhaps monogamous gay relationships could be regarded the same way.

Good luck, I'm in MD too. I've had this debate with family members as well...

Oh man, two of my favorite people, Dan Savage and John Shore, in the same virtual space. My head a'splode.

With due acknowledgement to the work and wisdom of Mr. Savage and Mr. Shore I have to say I am a little stunned by this response. Possessed though he is of a beautiful bravery and moral clarity, this young man remains a sixteen year old called against his will into a confrontation with an adult bigot clearly intent on at least manipulating and likely bullying him. That it is the pastor himself who called for this meeting, on his turf, on his terms and (incredibly) privately is to me setting off alarm bells - multiple and loud - that Mssrs. Savage and Shore, in their understandable joy in and desire to support the young hero, are perhaps not hearing.

I think that there is a better, more appropriate support, and lesson, to be offered here: that cultivating your strength sometimes means admitting that some arguments, with some people or in some situations are simply unwinnable; that combatting ignorance with intellect is admirable and necessary but can at times also be pointless and degrading; that most powerful defense, or offense for that matter, you can offer sometimes is to refuse to be placed or remain in a position where you need to fight when you shouldn't have to; and that in every case, simply as an adult whether its an issue of personal relationships or global civil rights, you need to be able to tell the difference.

I have a hard time imagining that any one of us here would send our own kid, however smart, strong and brave, into a room with such a man as this pastor and is that not the real problem here? Assuming he is not under some kind of physical duress, perhaps it would be better if this young man staked out out a position of power by simply refusing to go; that not being an option for whatever reason, I'm with those who advise that he should adopt a simple mantra of "I hear you but I disagree", "we are all sinners, no more anyone else than you or me" or some other quietly irrefutable response, maintain his composure and dignity, respectfully refuse to debate and finally depart with his head held high for being strong enough not to be coerced into stooping to the level of this dangerously foolish man.

That's be plenty heroic for a sixteen year old in my book. Its plenty for anyone, actually.

Thank you, what fine, fine young man you are, what a great man you will certainly be.

Jesus imaginary christ!
Dan invites a guy to talk about how magic invisible man loves gays after all? To an indoctrinated boy who had no choice in labeling himself as jesus-cultist?!

Shouldn't you be talking, you know, about how there is no god and why religions exist??
It's not like we don't already know that shit in great detail:

1.God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist, V.Stenger(physicist)

2.Why We Believe in God(s): A Concise Guide to the Science of Faith, A. Thompson(psychiatrist)

3.Religion Explained, P.Boyer(cognitive anthropologist)

4.The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails, Loftus, Barker

Hey SBB - I was in your shoes about 15 years ago, down in Southern Maryland at a church similar to Crosswinds (Except that my mom wasn't forcing me to go to church, and my pastor was someone who I really admired and wanted to please. It was all pretty painful).

Anyhow, this isn't going to help you with your appointment with the pastor, but perhaps it will help you afterwards, when your mom is still trying to force you to go to church every week. Offer to compromise by exploring the teachings at other nearby churches. I tried looking up some in your area that are welcoming to everyone - try Cedar Hurst UU or St. Pauls UCC or Kriders UCC.

Also, I agree VERY strongly with advice from @24. The phrases suggested were perfect, so if you do nothing else, just memorize these:
"Thank you so much for your time" and "I really appreciate you being willing to talk to me about this" and "I'd like time to consider your perspective" are good ways to string the meeting along....
And: "Jesus says to love everyone. I need to pray about this." then STOP. Smile. Silence is REALLY HARD, but it is your MOST POWERFUL TOOL.

A few more Westminster churches to offer as alternatives: St. Mary's United Church of Christ, and Westminster Church of the Brethren

Stay strong, and good luck. I'm with @26. Your best bet might be locking yourself in a room they can't immediately remove you from or being somewhere else during the scheduled meeting time. Heck, depending on how far you want to take it, if it were me, I might make them physically carry me if they wanted me to go that badly. People are conditioned to hate from a young age, and it's very difficult to change the mind of someone who is blinded by hate. I generally find that supporting love and avoiding those who have distasteful religious beliefs is my best course of action.

Wow, this is intense. My blood is just boiling on your behalf, SBB! I really, really want to hear an update on what went down. Good luck and remember, the gentleman always wins! Some people want to wallow in their delusions and there's nothing we can do about it except to leave them behind. No apology necessary.

Your pastor's mind is made up, and you'll only wear yourself out and leave yourself open to bullying if you try to engage with him.

I recommend that you use the Broken Record Technique. You're probably too young to remember records, but that's what music used to come on. :-) When a record got stuck, it would play the same few notes over and over again. And that's what the Broken Record Technique does.

When you know you have a difficult conversation coming up, with someone who's going to try to bully you, you decide AHEAD OF TIME what the best one-sentence summary of your position is. Maybe yours is, "My God doesn't do hate" or "I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree" or "You must understand God in your way, and I must understand him in mine." Whatever your position is, boil it down to a SINGLE SENTENCE and fix it firmly in your mind.

Then, when the confrontation comes, the only thing you say is your sentence. Every time the pastor tries to get a different response out of you, you just repeat your sentence. When faced with this, most people give up pretty quickly.

Pastor: Surely you see that we must protect society from gay marriage.

You: My God doesn't do hate.

Pastor: Well, we can love the sinner but still hate the sin.

You: My God doesn't do hate.

Pastor: But gay marriage is wrong; everybody knows that.

You: My God doesn't do hate.

Pastor: Can't you say anything else, you little twit?

You: My God doesn't do hate.

Pastor: Get out of here!

Obviously you only use this technique with people you aren't interested in having an ongoing relationship with. :-)

I was raised catholic, myself, and parted ways with the church over 15 years ago over much the same kind of thing. I consider myself an agnostic, but anyone who can look at Jesus' teachings, and come up with the idea that there is a group of people they should hate or discriminate against has failed, not only on a moral level, but at basic reading comprehension.

In other news. Here's a Minister that's on the right side of this issue and paying the price.

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/05/29…

When we're done trying to figure out our horrible, ugly, violent day, could someone at the Stranger please pass the big gay money hat around the room for this guy? Remember, being a Minister is just a job, a way to feed yourself. This guy's put his job at seriouse risk to support out rights.

I don't think that 16 is too young to take a stab at standing up to an adult. Some 16 year olds have a respectable amount of mental clarity. This kid sounds like one of those. Also, the late teens are very fervent age with regard to idealism. He's on the right side of this and it could be a great moment of personal growth toward adulthood. I was about 16 when I first stood up to a teacher on a matter of principle, although it was really trivial compared to this. A lot of you are writing from a perspective that posits this kid as too fragile. He's dealing with his pastor and his parents. These are people he knows who have nurtured him up to this point in life. They can't be totally abhorrent people as they have raised a kid who possesses reason and compassion. Finally, he's on the inside of this faith community. He has a chance to make a difference by pushing back in a righteous, principled and respectful way. The John Shore approach should be tried. "Fuck all y'all" can be momentarily satisfying, but it rarely changes hearts.

Dan, I applaud your response to this kid. You're always telling NALT Christians to stand up to their bigots, so it's a logical extension of that to now give them the tools to do so. As for SBB, you should do whatever you're comfortable with. If all you can do right now is nod and smile, that's OK. If you feel comfortable with saying what John Shore recommended, do that. Anything in between is also OK. But one bigoted pastor is no match for the passion of a teenager with a strong moral compass. Don't let him or anyone else bully you just because of your age.

As a mom of 2 young sons who I know will be 16 in the blink of an eye, I am finding myself feeling *very* protective for this 16 year old (I'll call SBB). I really like John Shore and his writings and it would be great if JOHN and DAN could debate this pastor but I don't think SBB should take him on. (Still I think giving him a copy of John's essay would be good - but maybe wait until you are leaving so you don't have to wait while he reads and discusses it real time)
(more)
Now SBB did not say anything about being gay himself or questioning - he could just be an amazing straight ally. For the purposes of covering all bases and in case this could help someone else reading this I am going to go with the hypothetical case that this person is gay or questioning his sexual identity.
Here are 6 things I want to say:
1) You are A-OK just the way you are. God does not make mistakes.
2) Don't listen to some pastor telling you that there are organizations that can turn gay people Ex-gay because it doesn't work
3) DON'T listen to him if he starts saying stuff about homosexuality being condemned and hated by God - just pretend you are in a Charlie Brown Special and just hear "bla bla bla"
4) If you are gay or questioning, please please don't EVER think of suicide. You may be surrounded by bigots right now but there are lots and lots of amazing supportive people out there. Your future can be really really good. Hang in there.
There are lots of great fb pages where you can find support. Make a new fb account if you don't want existing fb friends to see what public fb communities you visit and post on. (or keep your account and read but don't post or like photos if you don't want certain fb friends to see)
Besides Dan's and John's, here are a few other good pages:
http://www.facebook.com/TheTrevorProject
http://www.facebook.com/WHOF1
http://www.facebook.com/itgetsbetterproj…
http://www.facebook.com/bloggingforchang…
5) Read this
http://momastery.com/blog/2010/10/14/a-m…
6)Read this and show your mom if and when you come out to her (same with the essay in my # 5 too)
http://www.danoah.com/2012/04/a-teens-br…
(more)
I think it is great that you reached out to Dan for advice and that John was able to give you his essay and perspective. You are brave. I am really proud of you for taking a stand, especially at your age. You are a child of God. No matter what you hear in that meeting please know that God is on YOUR side.
Stay Strong

John Shore, god bless him, is trying to bring logic and compassion to a debate that is about power and control.

If you are going to convince this pastor of anything he doesn't already believe, you need to convince him that your point of view is the future, and he'd better catch this wave or he'll soon be an inconsequential rusty old relic.

(because people are basically insane about two things: sex, and belonging to the group with the most power)

You know, I've never really understood why (many) Christians make such a point of bashing gays. Why do they care? The line above is the best explanation I've found. People want to belong to something, and they want to feel superior to someone else. And then, sex: enough said there. 

I agree with the "don't engage" contingent (especially @46). People like your pastor are trained in emotional manipulation and high-pressure sales tactics. For good or evil, that's their job. They're pros. I know from my own childhood the creepy-crawly guilty feeling they can induce, and it's not pretty. Your job is not to try and enlighten the man (or, even worse, debate Scripture with him--you and I know the Bible doesn't require Christians to bash gays, but why even go there with a pro?). Your job is to get out of there unbullied. Don't engage, look up into a corner if you need to, but above all don't commit to anything: coming back to the church, more meetings in person or over the phone, anything except staying away from the church. Repeat as necessary, "I hear what you're saying, but I can't commit to that, sorry."

Hey Dan,

I'm 29 and have been reading your column for about 10 years, because I think you are good for America.

I read this 'sex/love' advice column on Salon today, and it was the worst piece of sex-negative advice ever. Just reminded me of why you are awesome. And also I want to ask you to please, please, please write a big fat smack down column about other people's bad sex advice. You generally don't trash other sex-advice columnists. That's cool. Classy and all. BUT...this one deserves a big dose of your philosophy. If you feel like punching an easy target, go read this crap... Apparently, it's not just the ole Anne Landers generation who give crap sex/relationship advice.

http://www.salon.com/2012/05/31/my_boyfr…

(Summary: a 20 year old girl is freaking out about her older boyfriend's "porn addiction." She makes her BF go to therapy, only watch non-nude movies, won't let him go to the beach where he could look at scantily clad women, and expresses her fear that he will be aroused at the supermarket. The columnist does not manage to point out this is total batshit crazy behavior. Look, porn addiction can be real. But...it's completely unclear from her letter whether her BF actually is a porn addict. If he's got a serious problem--ie one that leaves their emotional and sexual relationship unfulfilled, then she should deal with that. Either by DTMFA, by setting some boundaries, or by trying to explore some mutual porn-watching/sex-fantasizing.

We need more of you, Dan.

Hugs,

me

As I was just telling my boyfriend today, you cannot change an emotion through rational thought. This pastor's, and many so-called Christians', position are not based on facts, logic, or rationality, so to try and persuade him using the very excellent article by Mr. Shore, or even BABH's (@34 & @37) great comments about the differences between civil and religious marriage, would be a futile effort.

I'm with those who say to not engage with the pastor during this meeting. You are clearly a bright, well-spoken, thoughtful young man, but this isn't about intelligence, it's about power and in this meeting, the pastor has all the power. Comments @42 and @24 (unregistered, but worth the read) have excellent ideas regarding what you can say during the meeting.

Finally, @7 and @10, while I agree with both of your comments, that the bible may be anti-homosexual but God isn't, that argument will not work for this situation. For Christian fundamentalists, the bible IS God's opinions on things, so if the bible is anti-homosexual, then so is God, since the bible is the "word of God." Heaven forbid you say something about how flawed, human men wrote it!

Good luck, SBB, and remember we are here to support you!

SBB - You have your fallback line. You cannot in good conscience belong to a church that views same-sex marriage and those who would practice or support it as evil. You can venture from that point as you see fit.

The only thing I can think of to add to what has been said already is that the pastor is likely to invoke God as being on his side. Once he is reasonably fixed to the point of insisting that you face condemnation if you don't repent/recant, you can counter that, if that's the required pathway to Heaven, you're not interested and wouldn't take a golden ticket to such a destination.

Good luck and please provide an update. You will have the thoughts, best wishes and prayers of many of us.

It may come as a surprise that I have several good, Christian friends. My comment is based on what I've experienced w/ them, and it's not one centered around a theological debate.

Young man, it's time you made your own decisions on which church you want to go to. *Many* Christians out there switch churches. Very few ever go their entire life at the same church or denomination. Some switch two, three, four times. Whether you choose to continue going to church or not, all he needs to hear is that his church no longer reflects what you want in your spirituality. There are other churches out there, and you are going to find one that you harmonize with. End of story.

I'd be tempted (probably not my 16 year old self, but definitely my older and wiser and more fearless self) to stand outside the church on that Sunday that the meaning of Marriage was to be discussed, with a sign saying "I am a member of this church, and I disagree." I'd be curious if anyone stood with me. Wouldn't it be an amazing place to live (this world) if we all realized that love is truly stronger than fear?

God believes homosexual sex is not a sin. God believes homosexual sex is a sin. God is a purple elephant. All of these are equally true statements. Non-entities can be anything and everything you want them to be. Just because some subset of Christians have decided to be less bigoted about one thing doesn't mean that Christianity itself, and all religion for that matter, is a rotting ark and a plague upon humanity. Take this as a clue that whenever an invisible, unknown and uncommunicative being determines what is and is not ok, people will use and abuse that power to harm those they fear.

@42 Sweettrreehugger

Please go read what I wrote to you in the Garfunkel and Oates 29/31 thread.

Mr Shore, I salute you. I'm glad to see that Christianity has many facets.

To those who fear a 16-year-old has no chance to stand up to a powerful older pastor: I was once in a similar situation (though the topic was different), I was only 15, and quite frankly, I left with the pastor (actually Catholic priest) remaining quite speechless and without an answer to my questions.

Yes, 16-year-olds are in an inherently inferior position. It'll be a tough job. But they aren't powerless, or brainless. They don't have to only sit through it and think of England. They can respectfully engage, and keep their ground. That's what I did, and to this day I am happy I did.

Although John Shore's advice is no doubt excellent and well reasoned, I would suggest a different approach.

There's loads of evidence that people with strong views are almost never persuaded out of them by reason (and that's not a dig at religion - the exact same thing holds true for all beliefs... anti-vaccination, social security privatisation, that the Cubs can win the Series). In fact, there's some evidence that arguments by logic can in fact harden opposition since it stimulates people to spend time developing their counter arguments.

Much more effective is an argument by emotional appeal and personal experience. Firstly, someone's personal experience and beliefs can't be argued with - they aren't facts to be refuted. So, for instance, this impressive kid might try saying something like, "I know gay people who are in loving and stable relationships. I believe they are as worthy of love and commitment as anyone." Your pastor can push back with "Well I believe X." But then you're just two people with different beliefs and experiences. He won't change his mind there in the room. But this kind of conversation is harder to dismiss from your mind than the other. If you're firm, clear, polite and sincere it can be surprisingly effective. I've actually had conversations like this that were followed up months or even years later by the person telling me they had changed their minds.

Good points, #62.

SBB, I have no idea if you're still reading (or if you've read the comments thread at all), but I think the don't-engage crowd is mostly right. If you really feel compelled to say something about this, tell your pastor you have just a brief argument to make if he'll listen. Make the best, most concise case you can, and then conclude by saying you appreciate his having listened to you, but you're not actually there to engage in an all-or-nothing debate. He doesn't need to "lead you back to the faith," or "save you from sin," or anything of the sort. You're fine, thank you very much, and unless he has something else that's important to discuss, you have things to do and perhaps you'll see him later. Be polite but firm.

If I might, real quick, address the criticism that it was (essentially) wrong of me to in effect send this boy into "the lion's den." I understand the desire to protect this kid; my first thought, too, was to advise the boy not attend the meeting at all--or, as I saw someone here suggested--to go, but do little besides nod, be polite, and wait to get the freak out.

But the thing is, it's GOOD for young people to learn how to properly and even constructively engage with adults and authority figures who in some fundamental way disagree with them. It's a healthy and useful thing to learn how to do. Learning how to navigate one's way through the world of adults is one of the main things about being a teenager. This kid seemed to me capable of handling this situation; I thought it a good idea for him to do so. Not to defeat the pastor, or anything like that. But simply for the experience. If he does this, and does it well---if throughout the meeting he does indeed remain as respectful and calm as I've advised him to---then he'll go back out into the world feeling more confident than he might have otherwise that he's prepared to handle life. He's have PROVEN that he is. I like that; I think it's important.

SBB,

Just speak your mind after you've allowed the Pastor to speak his. He is entitled to run his church how he feels, but you are under no obligation to support bigotry -- even in the name of your Pastor's interpretation of scriptures.

Hopefully, Maryland (my state) has enough Christians such as yourself, who will stand up to the homophobes. Your Pastor is on the losing side. You should let him know this in no uncertain terms.

@66 - Thanks for clarifying, John. I think there's a good chance you're right, that it will be a good experience for him, but there's also a chance - I hope a much smaller one - that this pastor is a seriously dark and manipulative person who could seize on any opening in SBB's psyche and family structure to put him through all kinds of Christ-camp-style brainwashing. Far more than just a single uncomfortable meeting. Crosswinds church appears to be one of those bland non-denominational outfits, but those can sometimes mask a nastier fundamentalism.

I sincerely hope that's not the case, and I'm sure you do too. I know you mean well and I'm on your side (and SBB's!)

I am with the camp that says don't engage this person. As the old saying goes, you can't reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

@20 has nailed it. Priests and ministers are experts in emotional manipulation. Once you start trying to have a conversation he will use his years of training and experience to twist your mind and play on what ever fears or insecurities he senses to his own ends.

Just go, let him spew his misinformation and bigoted opinions, and then leave and never go back.

However I don't think you need to take the super polite route either. The idea that you should thank him and be sweet to him when you are being forced makes no sense. I think it is fine that you express your resentment over being forced to go and listen to this bigot.

I would say something along the lines of, "Since I am being forced to come here lets get this over with. Being forced to come listen to this does not make me feel comfortable or safe, and certainly does not have a positive influence on my decision to leave this church. Say your piece and then I am gone."

And then when he has said his piece say, "bye".

No need to be falsely polite in the face of coercion and manipulation. You can let him know that you see exactly what he is doing and that it is going to have the opposite effect.

And while he is talking you can basically ignore him and think about girls, or boys, or what ever floats your boat, until he is done and you can leave.

Just let some of your friends know what is going on so in case they try to ship you off to some kind of Christian boot camp against your will someone will know what was going on.

John Shore: "If he does this, and does it well---if throughout the meeting he does indeed remain as respectful and calm as I've advised him to---then he'll go back out into the world feeling more confident than he might have otherwise that he's prepared to handle life."

Right. And if he doesn't - which most people of any age would have great difficulty with - then he knows that John Shore told him exactly how to do it and he failed. That the pastor succeeded in crushing him like a bug, in humiliating him, even though he had explicit instructions on how to avoid this outcome.

I love the advice to pick one's battles. If the young man doesn't have enough power to refuse to attend this meeting, then there's a good chance he doesn't have the power to refuse to attend the next one, and the next, and the next.

Making a choice to not engage is a valid and active choice. It's challenging to execute, but more within most people's abilities. The young man will still have the outcome of "going back out into the world feeling more confident that he's prepared to handle life," and now he has another tool in his toolkit. Knowing that one has the option of not engaging is very empowering, and means the choice to engage later on in other circumstances will be a conscious, deliberate one, made on his own terms.

Choosing not to engage is not a cop-out. It's non-compliant. It's choosing not to play someone else's game. It's a very mature choice.

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"God believes homosexual sex is not a sin. God believes homosexual sex is a sin. God is a purple elephant. All of these are equally true statements. Non-entities can be anything and everything you want them to be."

Nice to see someone else sees the real issue here besides me.

@66, indeed, Mr Shore.

It may be, as some above suggest, that this pastor is sufficiently evil to try all kinds of manipulation (Christ camps, etc.) on this boy. But given this situation, said priest is already in a position in which he thinks it may be a good idea to do that. Even if SBB simply sits through it and says nothing, it will be obvious to the priest that SBB didn't change his beliefs -- and out comes the manipulative paraphernalia.

Judging by my own personal experience, being honest, calm, frank, open-minded, reasonable, and logical has a much better effect -- not on the priest himself, who probably won't change his viewpoints (mine, in my case, certainly did not), but as you suggest, Mr Shore, because he, SBB, will feel better afterwards. I did.

@ 66

Mr. Shore,

I'm of the opinion that there is more than one way for this young man to do this meeting honorably. It is perfectly honorably to not engage with someone. Especially since he has not sought this meeting. He will have to evaluate his situation and choose the best option he has. Certainly your advice is wise for preparation and thank you for sharing them, but I think it is also fine for him to choose to disengage if the situation becomes one of emotional bullying, intellectual bullying, and family manipulation.

Kind regards.

@71, oh, Mattyx, but the real issue is not non-entities, but intolerance and the belief others should agree with you no matter what. Atheists are perfectly capable of intolerance; you yourself strike me as someone who could be a fairly good Great Inquisitor (or Witchfinder General, if you prefer).

Talking to non-entities happens all the time without necessarily involving intolerance for those who don't engage in it. It's the intolerance that makes it a problem, as it does of any belief system, actually.

@74 - you're right, of course. But that still leaves open the question of whether religious belief, on balance, correlates more frequently with intolerance than most modern forms of secularity do. I think we can venture a qualified "yes" to this question. Strict atheists tends to be intolerant of religious belief, but they tend to be more tolerant outside that area of discourse.

I disagree with the topic you're recommending. You're suggesting that he argue with the pastor on biblical grounds that the bible doesn't condemn homosexuality. That may be correct but even if there were any chance in hell that he could convince this pastor of that it's still the wrong argument.

The correct argument is that the constitution is the law of the land and it says Thou Shalt Not make laws establishing religion. The law passed in MD is saying that gays have the same rights to civil marriage as straights. The only argument against this law is based strictly in religion. Forget about trying to convince this pastor that the bible is pro-gay and just stick with the important fact that the constitution doesn't care what his religious feelings are on the matter and that all people must be treated equally under the law.

@76 - unfortunately that argument won't work either, and not just because the pastor is irrational. There is no clean division of church and state at the level of individual conscience. The church cannot cast a vote, but it is free to engage in public discourse to try to influence voters - and that's exactly what it's doing. 'Treated equally', at this stage of U.S. law, does not necessarily mean that SS marriage must be approved and cannot be opposed - much as you or I would like it to be so.

Tell that bigoted pastor that his words and actions are hurting good, decent people who haven't done him or anyone else any harm, and that's wrong and goes against everything Jesus taught. He needs to hang up his outdated stereotypes and love real people for who they are. Whenever Christianity moves away from the love that Jesus taught and gets caught up in money, politics, sex and Old Testament legalism, it loses its way and its followers. Whether gay marriage will become legal in Maryland sometime in the next decade is not an open question. Whether gays will achieve their full civic equality is not an open question. It will, and they will, because it's the right thing to do and more and more people know it. The only open question is how much damage American Christianity will do to itself in fighting this obviously losing battle that Jesus never would have fought. If churches want to keep their respect and prestige and stay relevant in this century, they need to start evolving on this, and they need to do it fast.

@79 - now THERE'S an argument! I don't know if "Whenever Christianity ... gets caught up in money, politics, sex and Old Testament legalism, it loses its way and its followers" is actually true or not, but it sure sounds good! Provide a couple examples of that, and I think we have a winner, ladies and gentlemen.

whoops I meant @78.

I was horrified, and am still very concerned, that the mother was throwing her child into a situation that reeks of emotional blackmail and social bullying, but there are other possible interpretations.

1. If a single meeting is all that the mother has settled for at *this* point, then it may still be possible to get out of the meeting by finding out what is really upsetting her (is it leaving your church, is it homophobia, could you join another church, is the pastor bullying her because of SBB standing up for what he believes?) This may be an easier path than dealing with a professional emotional showman and possibly life-long authority figure/pastor. If he can find an acceptable alternative, SBB may find that his mother may already be 3/4's of the way to another path herself. There are many parents out there who say,' please try it at least one more time,' maybe this is, or can be, defused to one of those situations.

2. SBB's parents and pastor, hopefully, are behaving like this out of loving concern and not the desire to be right. Assuming that their intentions are loving (at least to him) may help defuse the situation. (Loving concern doesn't mean they are allowed to blackmail emotionally.) Assuming honourable intentions may also be a good position to take if he has to face that pastor, without pushing away from family and supports.

3. Parents and probably pastors, can take a long time to realize that their teen is a thinking, reasonable human being. SBB's parents may not yet see his true level of emotional maturity. This is just something to keep in mind. If SBB and his parents are basically sane, then the parents might respond to the 'I'm growing up, I'm thinking, I still need you but you showed me how to do the right thing, and now I am doing it' sort of argument.

It sounds a little cliche and idealistic doesn't it? But there is a lot to be said for being boring and sane and polite in difficult situations.

OH, if the guy gets really weird, it is OK to walk out of the room.

Disclaimer: I have two teens (17 and 19), religion is not so polarized, and you can marry whomever you want where I live. So, yes, your experience may vary!

Thanks for the follow-up comment, John. I mostly agree with what you've said. But, I think SBB needs to honestly assess what his emotional reaction will be if the pastor goes down the "worst case scenario" road that some folks are imagining. Will you be able to stay detached in the face of these kinds of emotional appeals?

Also, there is a possibility that this is just a routine thing that the pastor does -- when someone leaves the church, he wants to meet with them to talk about why. It's possible that he won't "hassle" you and that he'll be respectful and and open to conversation. It's possible that he's more concerned about whether you're leaving Christianity in general vs. leaving his church specifically. Based on that e-mail, the odds are probably small, but it's possible.

Anyways, none of us really know what kind of situation you will be walking into or what your personality/temperament is. We're all bringing our assumptions about the pastor and you into our comments. So, if you're reading, take all of this with a grain of salt. However it goes down, as long as you emerge unscathed (which is, I think, everyone's primary concern), you'll learn something interesting about what kind of person this pastor is.

I think he should bring friends along with him to the meeting with the pastor (if he goes). Friends who are of like mind of course. Oh, and maybe request that it not be a closed door meeting.

This thread is full of good advice, even where suggestions contradict. Excellent crowd-sourcing, everybody, and nearly troll-free. SBB, you sound plenty capable of choosing the advice-chunks that best fit your situation. I'd really like to hear how it all comes out.

@74

No.
When you and your parents are indoctrinated(tradition) while in childhood, to exploit the gullibility of such age, into believing that what ancient primitives in pre-scientific era said was true you are far more likely to have abominable morals and outlook on life.

As most christians and muslims clearly show.

SBB, do your homework. Google Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council, because this is the kind of person you are up against, an asshole who smiles when you say something they don't like or agree with. it is their way of telling you that what you believe doesn't count, and that you are hopelessly ignorant, and THEY are superior in every way. and do let us know what happens.

@15: Yeah, I missed the part, too, about his mom making him do it - Go Go Gadget Skim-reading! He should use some of the teen trademarked You Can't Tell Me What to Do and do something better with his time than try to face down a bigot with authority while trying to sort out his own spiritual crisis.
As a former fundy bigot, I am pretty optimistic about the possibility happening with some - but this situation doesn't seem like it.

The thing is that there's no chance of changing the guy's mind no matter what the kid says. No matter what this pastor actually believes, he has too much to lose by changing his position. It's that power thing that John Shore mentions.

It's the same with Dan's upcoming meeting with Brian Brown, but at least the latter is a public meeting that will shed more light on the subject for all to see.

I hope this kid stays strong and brave, but don't saddle him with the hope that he's going to make a dent in this guy if only he has a solid argument. If he emerges from the encounter with his composure and the courage of his own convictions intact, he will have won. Brave kid.

Why is it up to this kid to confront and convince his pastor? I say if he doesn't want to go in and wants out, he should get out. Find a more amenable church if you must.

[Absent any danger to his person, of course.]

I agree with the people saying that Shore's advice is more appropriate for an adult, but not for a 16-year-old. I would refuse to engage, just let the pastor say his piece, and then leave and never come back. Fundamentalist pastors are trained to be emotionally abusive and coercive; that's how they get so many vulnerable young people riled up in the church. That's how they got my sister into it. Even an intelligent sixteen-year-old - I'm sure the LW is smarter than his stupid pastor - isn't usually emotionally-mature enough to be able to deal with the sort of emotional manipulation these people are trained to do.

Plus, fundamentalists don't tend to treat teenagers as people capable of an adult conversation. Anyone who is under 18 is a "child"; just look at the way that those "morality on TV" groups like the Parents Television Council decry the idea of "innocent young children watching" a show because it's popular with the 12-17 age group. He's not going to be able to approach it like an adult conversation because the pastor likely won't be approaching it as one, either. Just...sit through it and don't engage.

Also, it's totally not this kid's responsibility to make his church more amenable to gays. If that's going to happen, it's going to be because a bunch of adults reacted the same way this kid did, not because one 16-year-old stands up for it. Teens who rebel against their parents' religious beliefs are a cliche and the pastor knows it, and will easily be able to shrug this kid off as another "doubter" or "prodigal son" - no matter how sincere the convictions are in any particular teen's case. (Hell, I've been an agnostic since I was eight, I'm now 22, and my bio dad is STILL convinced that it's "a phase.")

Mr. Shore,

Speaking only for myself: I see your point and more. If I were the young man in this situation, my dad would have told me to (ahem) "go tell him to go shit in his hat", would have coached me on the way and then been listening at the door to make sure not only that I did it but did it well by his long example.

That seems, though, decidedly not to be the environment in which this young man lives, and while yes I agree he is probably someone who could hold his own and benefit from doing so, the operative words are 'probably' as in possibly not and 'own', as in on his own. I respectfully but strongly disagree with you as it seems clear to me that there are risks here multiple and serious for a sixteen year old, the least of which I suppose might actually exist in the room with the pastor, which I think you are eliding.

And frankly, even if this terrific kid has all the capacities we imagine him to, the points remain that given the pastor's letter and behavior, he is by almost certainly unswayable by anything remotely like reason to say nothing of compassion or grace. If for no other reason than the waste of time and breath why in the world bother with this at all if you have anything like a choice, and I repeat: is it not in any event a better lesson for life in general to avoid elevating ignorance to reason by engaging with it as such?

Unless I am greatly mistaken, it is inviting Browns into his home for dinner, and nothing is going to say or do beyond that, which is Mr. Savages' ninja move in his own debate and I think there is a great if subtle parallel lesson here for our young hero.

Perhaps then a compromise:

"Dear Rev. _______

Your letter, recent sermons, statements and actions as regards this issue are more than sufficient for me to understand your position quite thoroughly as well as to determine that we have very different and ultimately incompatible views as to the best path to walk a Christian life. I do not wish to discuss it further and ask that you respect my decision as well as my freedom to make it.

Yours in Christ,

Cool Kid"

Ninja. Then never think of him, or this, again.

I admire John Shore, but I think it's extremely irresponsible of him (and Dan as well, for not refuting) to encourage this teen to try to debate his pastor (and most likely his mother).

Heartfelt, naive, and horrible advice wrapped up in a big bow labeled "Good Intentions."

Please take #25's advice. Be respectful, nod, agree to "think and pray about" what he says, and get the hell out of there as soon as you can.

I like @32's idea—trying to get out of the meeting by saying, "I feel unsafe"—but if that doesn't work, consider it your opening gambit.

You could tell your mother that if she's going to insist you meet with him, you want the meeting to take place at your house, with her present. If that gets rejected, tell her you'll meet with him at the church, but only if she's there.

If the pastor dismisses even that idea, ask your mother if it seems right to her that a clergyman would demand to meet with a minor alone and unsupervised. If she says she doesn't have a problem with that, feel free to get an outside opinion.

And if you really feel motivated to communicate anything to this pastor, you don't have to do it in person. I recommend snail mail.

Terribly wordy, overcomplex advice.

The best response is:

"If God feels this way, I just don't love him anymore. I could fake it, but that would be wrong. Jesus commanded us to love God with all our heart and mind and soul, and that's not something I can do anymore."

This takes away the argument about 'what God says' (which you will never win), it takes away arguments about the bible, it takes away arguments about whether God exists. You will completely take the wind out of his sails by saying you believe everything he says, you just can't force yourself to feel love for a being that feels this way.

I like Mr. Shore's ideas, but I think the letter writer should reply to the pastor's email with the copy of the essay and a link to the video that Dan posted awhile ago where a teenager examined the Bible and homosexuality.

Then I think he should make an appointment for the three of them -- the pastor, his mother, and himself. Though if he is a confirmed member of the congregation, he has the right to resign his membership, it is not that likely that the pastor will treat him as the adult he is under church law.

I know this sounds a little paranoid, BUT I would be afraid not only of bullying but of sexual harassment (or worse) if the pastor assumes the young man is gay himself.

He might be able to avoid the whole thing by giving the essay to his Mother and talking to her about the future -- and his right to make this decision on his own. He might also want to find a more liberal church, so he can explain to her that he is not giving up God or even church for politics. It depends on where his mother is coming from, of course.

For an example of people working for change within a church community, check out http://www.chicagoconsultation.org/

Good luck to the letter writer.

It all sounds good, really.

But I don't care. It's just as much proclaiming oneself knowledgeable of God's mind. We're all just as aware of the mind of the Invisible Pink Unicorn or J.R. "Bob" Dobbs. At least we're all pretty sure "Bob's" an idiot.

It's said in a pretty and nice way, but it's no more convincing than any other belief in invisible space monsters.

I'm sticking with Slack.

I think the writer's real problem isn't the pastor, it's his parents. They are the ones forcing this meeting on him. He should sit down with them and talk about this. Switching to another church seems like a great compromise, but it sounds like his mother is on the Pastor's side here.

If he can't talk sense to his parents to get out of this meeting, he can't expect much in the way of support or protection from them during any meeting with the Pastor. I still agree with John Shore. He should very calmly state that his personal Christian belief prevents him from condemning same sex marriage. If the pastor starts bullying him, then his only course of action is to remain calm and silent. If he is asked whether he realizes his error, the advice to say that he his going to pray on this issue is good.

BTW, I don't share his faith, but I don't have any respect for people mocking it. Tolerance is a two way street.

You're under no obligation to speak to this pastor, and shame on your parents for not being willing to at least appreciate that you have an opinion on the subject. Just because someone has a different opinion doesn't make them wrong or you right; you just believe differently.