http://www.childhaven.org/

familycide by handgun, the neverending american story.

I hate how people say it's best for kids to have both a mother and a father. This is not true. And what they're telling kids with gay parents is that their family isn't as good as a traditional family.

Also, if a woman has a husband who beats her, is it best to stay in the relationship because "the kids need a mom and a dad," even though he's abusive? No! It's better to have no dad than an abusive one!

Kids don't need a mother AND father, they need parents who love and care about them. Last time I checked, gay people and single parents are still capable of loving and providing for a child.

What a confusing story. It seems to say that the mother shot the kids, who then went to a neighbor's house to tell them that they were shot. And then the mother collected them from the neighbor, brought them home, and shot them again, killing them.

Wasn't the neighbor concerned that the kids were - you know - shot?

@3 and to suggest that all they need is a pair of parents is also misleading and limiting. Children need a group of people actively involved in loving, teaching, caring for them. To be so concerned about the gender of two of those people is to confuse what children need in a family group. Biological connections? Nope. A twenty to thirty year gap in age? Nope. One to two siblings? Nope. A large house? Nope. Married parents? Nope.

Kids need people – a lot of people – who are involved. They need neighbors and teachers and uncles and aunts and “uncles” and “aunts” and grandparents and dozens more. And parents need that, too. If I didn’t have my extended family and my chosen “family” around to help, I’d be a terrible mother. (Jury’s still out on that anyway).

But when FotF-types start yelling about traditional family, they’re promoting an isolating family structure that may contribute more to everything they claim is wrong in our society. We need a lot less isolation. The only thing FotF-types should be concerned about with parents is how involved are they in the world around them, how many adults are connecting with their kids in a positive way. That has way more impact on a child than the gender of the people that rely on. Beyond that, who cares who sleeps where?

Also, Vince, if you check in…
Sorry to steal your thunder. My first thought was to head over and donate, so I went ahead and left a link.
Thank you, again, for reminding us of this organization.

www.childhaven.org

Thanks Allyn for the childhaven link. I was glad to see it was the first comment. And thanks to Vince, if you check in, for starting the childhaven donation tradition.

@6&7 You all did good. Thanks!

Bringing up these attrocities as sledgehammers to beat down idiotic right-wing arguments is (and continues to be) total bullshit, Dan. Idiotic right-wing arguments fall on their own for lots of good reasons. Regurgitating voyeuristic stories about het mothers and/or fathers who molest, beat, and kill their kids isn't going to win hearts and minds - and it doesn't do much for folks with brains either.

Knock this shit off.

I agree with @12, this is horrid.
The story is nauseating and sad, and using that for gay rights is just wrong. I'm the first to say that parents in heterosexual marriages can be really bad parents, and that quality of raising and love does not depend on gender. But using the tragic deaths of 4 kids to further same-sex marriage is abusing the sadness of these children's deaths.
Shame on you Dan.

@11 - yeah, it sounds awful but every time someone goes on a shooting spree and ends up killing themselves, I can't help but be a little happy too. Think of how much time and money we save by avoiding a lengthy and costly trial, not to mention the cost of imprisoning the shooter. This is a tragedy to be sure but it somehow makes it easier on society when the killer also kills themselves.

Also, I have no problem with using such stories to point out exactly how flawed and hypocritical conservative/religious thinking is.

@12: YES.

Did anyone notice that the mother was only 16 years older than her oldest kid? And that she had four kids by the time she was 21?

@12 I definitely agree. Using this private tragedy to further a political campaign is distasteful at best, no matter how just the cause.

@14,

If that were the effect, I'd be right there with you. However, Dan's repeatedly bringing up these tragedies is more like repeatedly bringing up John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer in a bizarre attempt to undermine the legitimacy of GBLT individuals.

In other words - its fucking stupid.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around going back to the mother who just shot you. And that's just me head-scratching, not victim-blaming.

I'm not sure that this has anything to do with LGBT issues. I'm (pretty) sure it has something to do with mental health issues. Maybe that should be discussed instead.

How does this score points against the anti-gay crowd? By making equal rights supporters look as bad at determining causality as the haters are?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

So the kids went to their neighbors for sanctuary and were turned away to die at their mother's hands?

What a wonderful neighborhood.

I hope they can sleep peacefully knowing that they basically were the deciding factor between whether or not these kids survived and did nothing.